| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/5/2008 5:50:36 PM |
mental/psychological/emotional gender identity
That is sexist. How does a woman think? You do not know. You only know how you think. How does a man feel? You do not know. You can only pretend to know. The most sexist thing a person ever siad is "I'm a _ trapped in a __'s body". I love being a woman but I am not the only woman on the planet we differ. To say that you must think or feel one way to be a woman or a man is false. Your body is just that a body it is as strong or flabby as you make it she made hers hairy and I do not care what it looks like it is still a woman's body because that is what she is. Please do not try to change my mind or wording. truth is truth. I liked the couple that both changed genders. They were cute. I love my gay and trans friends and relitives and call them whatever noun or pronoun they want me to and treat them the same. I was asked what I was thinking about that woman and answered. To clear up any misunderstanding XX= male XY= female all others = hermaphrodite. If you are a news paper you must print the facts not the fairy tales | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/5/2008 6:31:00 PM | I think it is very narrow sighted to say there are only two sexes. I think Professor Anne Fausto-Sterling is still a little short, but her essay "The Five Sexes: Why Male and Female Are Not Enough" starts to work a little farther towards the truth.
http://frank.mtsu.edu/~phollowa/5sexes.html
Also, males are not all XY. There is such a thing as XX males.
http://www.bookrags.com/research/xx-male-syndrome-wog/
Here is another interesting article on how XX and XY are not the end all and be all of sexual or gender identification.
Also, there are those that are XXY.
http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition=klinefeltersyndrome
We really should be more careful on labeling things when they aren't all cut and dry. | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/5/2008 8:02:37 PM |
We really should be more careful on labeling things when they aren't all cut and dry.
Nothing in life is cut and dry, likewise, most everything in life has a label. If there weren't labels, we wouldn't need to differentiate between the sexes (of any nature;) boyfriends wouldn't turn into husbands; friends wouldn't be anything other than someone we met; we wouldn't be issued a name at birth, nor would we eat pasta ~ we'd just grunt and expect someone to know what we'd like to eat.
~OT~ This isn't a biology lesson. It's a rather simple topic for discussion: a declared man (by his own labeling) gave live birth via a vagina. That part is exceptionally simplistic in nature. If we were discussing biology, it would be impossible for a "man" (I didn't pick that label, by the way) to deliver a baby at this stage in bio-technology. Hence, this birth was really just another woman giving birth ~ add a label? Common occurance.  | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/5/2008 8:47:20 PM | ezzee that is why my post said all others = hermaphrodite. Hermaphrodites are not male or female they are human and they have DNA that does not put them in male or female bodies. Some look male some do not. I studied genetics they may relable all they want it does not change this woman's DNA she would have to go through resequencing and we can't do that yet. The "male" XX is really xy+ as the X is not fully formed and the resulting person is a hermaphrodite.
That is not the subject this isIn my opinion the person who gave birth was a woman who altered her apperence but not the fact that she is a woman. It was a stunt because she went on Oprah and she interviewed with people. She is making sure she is seen. If she was a friend of mine I would say the pronouns she wanted me to that would not make any difference. News papers should not distort the facts not for money or ratings and print in big letters man gives birth.
It is what it is a stunt and I'm sure a profitble one at that. Her wife had two kids and surgry because she did not want any more she kept her girl parts because she wanted to have kids someday.
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/5/2008 8:51:23 PM | | It seem backwards to me to refute a person's identity based on scientific classification, as if that taxonomy was superior to their sense of themselves. | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/6/2008 7:04:06 AM | I think the the people hung up on the fact that he is still - in terms of reproductive organs - a woman are being literalists. I understand that. While the media is exploiting the story for the sensational value of being able to say that a man gave birth, that is not, in my understanding why the man has agreed to the publicity. He is trying to challenge our ideas of male and femaleness and he does that by being physically identifiable (other than genitals) as a man, yet becoming pregnant and having the swollen, pregnant stomach of a woman. He is also trying to raise awareness and educate people about transgenderism.
Yes, a person with female anatomy gave birth. The real story, underneath the media hype, is that two people have chosen to make a family in the way that was available to them. They are unique in their choices, but their point really is that we are too locked into what gender means, too narrow, too restrictive in our ideas and that two PEOPLE can choose whatever form of family suits them. This "man" (there, does that make folks more comfortable - the quotes?) kept his genitals in the event he and his partner did want children, and he kept those genitals while transitioning physically to being a man in other ways as that is the identity that felt real to him, and then he chose to become pregnant and deliver a child naturally. That is the real story, although it is strange to us, uncomfortable to many, but that is the only story here.
I'm wondering if he will now complete his sexual reassignment and change his genitals to
It also occurred to me how lucky his wife is to have a "man" who thinks like a "woman".
javascript:smilie(' ') | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/6/2008 8:59:29 AM | OK, there is a difference between labeling something that we understand (ie pizza, computer, desk) and labeling those things we don't understand (ie gender and sexual identity) or labeling for the sake of classifying (ie black, Muslim, handicapped.) The latter two are, in my opinion, the simplest form of discrimination and segregation. One does not have to label and classify everything in order to survive.
As far as the biology lesson, VVendy, I think you completely missed the point of what I was saying. Sexual identity is not as cut and dry as male, female, and hermaphrodite. There are many more areas of sexual identity out there, and while humans want to make everything cut and dry, black and white, often times, they are not. It's like a rainbow or a spectrum, with many areas that we still don't understand.
Both of these topics are extremely relevant to this discussion. First of all, with the labeling, we wouldn't necessarily even be hear if we didn't have the archaic sense of needing to label and make everything one way or the other. It's a fault of the human mind, and something that we must overcome, less we continue with discrimination and segregation. And if we didn't have the basic mind feature of discrimination and segregation, this article wouldn't be relevant at all.
And the biology lesson is also relevant again because of the fact that there is much about sexual and gender identity that we do not understand. We may have thought that everything was all cut and dry, but we are finding out now that it is not anywhere or anything like that, as there is much more to the discussion of this issue. Again, it does go back to the idea of labeling.
Maybe the blame is on the consumers themselves. Would this even be the media circus it is if we as a society and as a public let it? If we had just not paid attention, then the media wasn't going to play it. If we as a public had said this whole story is irrelevant, then there would've been nothing for the media to play. I think it is time to look inside ourselves and consider if we are not part of the reason that this entire media circus has been allowed to happen. | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/6/2008 9:25:39 AM | | Vvendy...you accuse me of sexism, but I am not the one defining what is male or female in this instance. I am recognizing the identity this particular man feels and honoring him. If he says his internal core identity is male and he chooses to change his body to reflect that, who am I to tell him otherwise or judge him? You are the one who is being sexist here - if that is even the right term. At the very least judgmental in rejecting the identity he feels is his true identity so perhaps xenophobia is more appropriate - fear of differentness. Your "truth" isn't his truth and in fact your "truth" is really just an opinion and one not informed by enough education about how complex - and now we are learning - how multifaceted the concept of gender identity is. I don't expect you to embrace his identity, but you have no right to judge him or define him. I do suggest you go to Amazon.com and find a book as I looked and there are a number that look excellent. Meanwhile, knock off the judgment of him and of posters here who are trying to have an intelligent discussion. | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/6/2008 10:07:04 AM | I am fully in support of this man giving birth to this child (not that my opinion should matter - or anyone else's).
Far to often we see a privileging of the "norm", and when something goes against that or when people might not fully understand the situation/circumstances, it's labeled as something "bad". So-called "normal" heterosexual reproduction is not the only way things can be done. Gender identity is real and legitimate, and I'm sure this man had very good reasons for keeping the female reproductive parts (I think someone mentioned that the wife was not able to have any children).
All I see in this case are two parents who planned ahead because they wanted to be able to bring a child into the world. As another poster mentioned, all that we should focus on is the fact that two good and loving parents are bringing a child into the world. | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/6/2008 10:35:35 AM | labeling those things we don't understand
LMAO ~ who said anyone here doesn't understand? That is a very broad assumption and not only closed minded, but an overgeneralization. It appears to me that many of the posters here are not only educated on the topic at hand ~ they also have varied life-experiences and valid opinions. To assume one is smarter than another, simply because they don't agree with someone else's opinon, does not make that particular opinion/person right. A lot can be learned from accepting, listening (not just hearing/reading,) and embracing opinions unlike our own.
Far to often we see a privileging of the "norm", and when something goes against that or when people might not fully understand the situation/circumstances, it's labeled as something "bad". So-called "normal" heterosexual reproduction is not the only way things can be done.
I completely agree. The bubble I live in, being the US as a whole, is very pro-hetero. Personally, I'm not so inclined to agree. I am rather "right minded" on matters of the heart ~ such as gay/lesbian marriage, same sex couple adoption or even IVF for those who can and choose to do so. My experience has shown me (personally) that love is love, makes no difference who loves whom.
Gender identity is real and legitimate, and I'm sure this man had very good reasons for keeping the female reproductive parts (I think someone mentioned that the wife was not able to have any children).
The wife is not able to have children by her own choosing. She has two adult children.
~OT~ I simply see no reason to be in the media spotlight. I'm a very private person by nature ~ to each their own. It wouldn't be something I'd put myself, my partner or my child through. I don't even post family pictures via the net ~ it's not my place to plaster someone else's business (even via photo) here or elsewhere other than in my own home. Without expressed permission, I don't feel I have a right or priviledge (for that matter) for the world to view, critique or even wonder about those I know and/or love. But that's just me. | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/6/2008 10:42:55 AM | I know this will offend some. But it isn't intended to.
I personally think it is disgusting what this he/she, or whatever you want to call it is gonna put this child through in there life.
I think CPS should be called soon after the baby is born.
This child is gonna need some serious therapy.
I wouldn't wish that life on Osama bin Laden. | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/6/2008 10:51:35 AM |
LMAO ~ who said anyone here doesn't understand? That is a very broad assumption and not only closed minded, but an overgeneralization. It appears to me that many of the posters here are not only educated on the topic at hand ~ they also have varied life-experiences and valid opinions. To assume one is smarter than another, simply because they don't agree with someone else's opinon, does not make that particular opinion/person right. A lot can be learned from accepting, listening (not just hearing/reading,) and embracing opinions unlike our own.
I wasn't implying that people here don't know what they are talking about. People are entitled to their opinions. All I am saying is that people shouldn't be so quick to judge a situation that they don't completely understand - I am sure that there are a very limited number of people who are transgendered here. I personally am not transgendered, but I do know people who are and who have gone through transition (both ways). This is not to say that I have a better understanding, but I have been able to see things from a different perspective. | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/6/2008 11:11:28 AM | i will give my thoughts off the cuff (w/o first reading what other people have said: i will do that afterwards).
my first thought when i saw the "sensationalized" version on oprah was that of concern for the child. not because of two same sex parents, but because of the sensationalism. however, i've had similar feelings when deformed children are paraded on talk shoes like a circus.
years ago, similar attention was given to the first child who was "carried" by another woman--not to mention the legal ramifications. so, i guess i would like to speak to that person today.
as to a person's gender, that has always been repressed in the scheme of society. way back in college, i was taught there were about 7 sexes including the XX,, the XY and then the XXX, XXY et al. lately much brain research has demonstrated the male and female brain, let alone someone with a male brain in terms of sexual attraction that is planted in a female body or the part of the brain that is attracted to the same or opposite sex, versus the part of the brain that wants to "look" male or female. these are two different areas. then on top of that all, you add the horomonal and then the physical attributes.
so, all i can say is that the child, like many others who are put on tv to financially support the operation or whatever is the issue, has no "personal" life.
if that was not the case, then like any other same sex parent, i would hope they are in "community" with other same sex AND heterosexual parents. the same sex parents would demonstrate to the child that s/he is not alone. the heterosexual parents would be there for the child as most likely the child will be heterosexual.
this is what is done for adoptive children in the adoptive community where i participated with my fost/adopt teens. added on to that was support for heterosexuals who adopted gay/ lesbian children.
i am not clear WHERE these children are being raised. a more cosmopolitan community would most likely be the best place.
as to people having children who cannot the good old fashioned way, including heterosexuals: to me, adoption should come first in light of all the children w/o parents. however, i decided that at age five. it never left me. my friends often talk about the deep biological urge to "birth" their "own" children. to me, my kids are my own children. not having had that same urge, i cannot emotionally empathise. i can intellectually, just as for these two parents.
it all boils down to responsibilty for one's "own" children and for all the children in this world who are parentless. then of course, there are the one's who are neglected and abused by parents. i just cannot separate out all of this from this particular case. any real judgement on my part would have to do with how they are going to protect and raise this child to have no shame and feel s/he is of worth.
ps having now read the other comments, i would like to add that many people do this to support their medical costs or whatever it takes to raise their children. if they do it for the "cause", they have the added responsibility of caring for their dependents and not just themselves. for example, look at that current tv show with the woman who first had twins and then another six at once. this show is probably the only way for them to feed these kids!
way back when triplets or quads were rare, they got all the tv ad business. but when they became commonplace after fertility techniques-- many parents went onto welfare and had little means to support their voluminous families. this man may need to finish his medical treatments. as to comments about his wife not wanting kids. many people make this decision and later reverse procedures when they meet a second spouse. for some, it's part of their bonding chemistry, also documented in the brain research journals. | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/6/2008 7:11:56 PM | I'm a teacher and I have had the traditional mom and dad type parents and also mom and mom, dad and dad, once mom mom and dad and once dad dad and mom. I've had parents break up, die and one run away from home. I have parent teacher meetings, pictures of the parents posted and never once have I ever treated a person with any thing but respect. I run a non bias program. I do not put people in boxes (I think male role and female role are trems to be done away with). A boy can dress in silk and diaper a doll a girl can put on a cape and build a tower for the cars.
I do not tell them this is a girl thing this is a boy thing because I think people who have babies need to change that babies diaper. People who like silk should where it. People with super powers should save cars from being crushed by monsters and protect towers form planes that try to crash in to them. Adults get to my the life they want and the kid deals with it.
Why people would rather post views of my opinion than their own? I think you can't and it frustrates you because I am right. | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/6/2008 10:01:25 PM | Holigolightly ~ I think we have a little misunderstanding. I wasn't quoting you!! It was someone else's post I was addressing. I fully understood your post and agree. I should have maybe made my post more direct, although sometimes that isn't very wise here. Sorry if you thought I was 'answering' your post(s) ~ I wasn't. Sometimes I forget we aren't all sitting around the table talking ~ ops!! 
~OT~ I do happen to have one on-line transgender friend. For the past 8 years now. She had a very rough life growing up and she is the first to address the wanting children issue. Because she is a true transgender, going through surgeries now to remove the final bits of manhood ~ it's always been her desire to have a child (as the man since she has no uterus of course) but she has and continues to refuse. She just can't fathom the stigma and cruelties that go along with her own situation being brushed onto an innocent. Bless her heart ~ I think she'd be a wonderful parent, but maybe that is because she approaches her life with a HUGE dose of forethought and common sense. JMO | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/7/2008 8:30:36 AM | I think that men should have several wives and wives should have several men and any number of them should be cross dressers or trans gendered and bi or straight or gay and into bondage . Have I missed any " alternative lifestyles " ?
Bring it on .
As long as it is "liberating" , it's all good. | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/7/2008 10:31:59 AM | this is a sad and disgusting joke, and i feel sorry for that innocent baby. i also feel sorry for he/she, its seems that anyone who feels like they were born of the wrong sex has a psychological problem, he was born a man, and he will die a man. he/she did this as a stunt, and all the dopes in the media played along.
how very sad. | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/7/2008 7:33:30 PM |
It seem backwards to me to refute a person's identity based on scientific classification, as if that taxonomy was superior to their sense of themselves.
So a human convinced they are a duck should be taken at face value as a duck? They have a point that is not so easily dismissed. It just gets muddy when sexuality enter into it and that exists in such a wide spectrum.
Given what we know is the likely reaction and this couple didn't give the media the boot so they could get on with their lives and raising this child ..... has me thinking it is a stunt or a tranny crusade of sorts. And I cannot have any respect for anyone that would use a child in this manner. | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/7/2008 7:41:59 PM | Loony tunes...isn't it just possible that these two people fell in love and decided they wanted a child together despite the difficulties? Also, I'm sure word was getting out that there was a pregnant man and they may have wanted to be the ones to tell their own story which is why they went public. Why is it so hard to believe what really happened is a simple as that?
I expect they will protect their child from scrutiny and intend to be great parents. There are a lot of "normal" heterosexual parents in the world who do a lousy job and a lot of kids abused and neglected. I suspect this child will fare much better than many kids with straight and conventional parents. It is narrow-minded people who find this story incredulous and offensive, and those are the very types of people that will make life difficult for the child. | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/7/2008 8:03:56 PM |
It is narrow-minded people who find this story incredulous and offensive, and those are the very types of people that will make life difficult for the child.
Has it come to the point where anyone skeptical of this situation is now considered "narrow minded" ?
If so ....I'm certain the world has gone completely mad.
Is it possible that some people genuinely feel that this circumstance is very difficult for the kid ?
If the former woman who is still a woman , but , chose to cross over the line , for whatever reason , really had a maternal instinct .....would it be too much to ask that she stayed a conventional female ? I mean just for the sake of her child ? Isn't life hard enough as it is without the undenaible social complications ?
And ...Does it do society any good to publicise this whole spectacle ?
Sometimes people should consider their choices and the implication they have on the others that are greatly effected .
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/7/2008 8:09:05 PM |
Loony tunes...isn't it just possible that these two people fell in love and decided they wanted a child together despite the difficulties? Also, I'm sure word was getting out that there was a pregnant man and they may have wanted to be the ones to tell their own story which is why they went public. Why is it so hard to believe what really happened is a simple as that?
Ya and neither of them ever heard of the phrase "No Comment", or realized that their medical records were protected....
I call BS when I see it. That is NOT narrow minded.
You are crusading for the wrong people here. I don't care if a tranny has a kid other than I would hope they thought it through well in advance the same as I would hope any other couple would.
I suspect this child will fare much better than many kids with straight and conventional parents.
What proof do you have of this? Is there anything showing that your hopes of what it is are any more likely to be correct than what I see it as. A child being used for either a transgender agenda or simple notoriety.
If I am correct (and from how they handled the press I'm confident I am) this child is FAR from "better off" with people like this. | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/7/2008 9:59:53 PM | If by better off you mean off the profits of a book deal yes.
"My Dad was My Mom" will make lots more money then "My Parents Were Straight and Stayed Together"
Live and let live but call it what it is. If the world was non-bias we would not have this type of thing. Feminist need to work harder on getting rid of sterotypes. | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/8/2008 7:51:36 AM | In her bid to "raise awareness" the bearded lady has now sentenced her poor little girl child to a life of being hounded by the press.
That is the true tragedy here.
If the bearded lady really loved the child, it wouldn't have made the decision to go "public" on Oprah.
They must have got a nice big fat check from Oprah.
I wonder how much a normal life for that child was worth to them. Maybe Oprah threw in a car too, along with a contract for further appearances as the child grows up.
Truly saddening.
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/8/2008 8:28:53 AM | I understand people's difficulty accepting this. It is bending the rules we have lived with all our lives about gender. I have difficulties with why someone has to change their body at all to match what they feel inside. I have asked the same questions some of you have: what does it mean to be in a different body yet "feel" like you are a man, or "feel" like you are a "woman". I have often wondered, if our culture was less rigid about gender roles, wouldn't it be possible for transgenders to live in the bodies they were born in and still express their truth about who they are. I, too, have ambivalence about mutilating the body you are born in to in to match some sort of inner identity. While I support transgender "rights" the issue has always triggered a certain discomfort.
I even attended an all-women music festival and camping weekend where there was a big controversy over whether to allow transgenders to attend. I didn't want themadmitted as I wanted to be an event with all "women". The decision was to only allow women-born women in). What has changed for me my tolerance and compassion. I can't possibly know what they are feeling and I no longer feel comfortable labeling another person or trying to define who they are when they are saying something different. I can only imagine the emotional pain that would lead someone to surgically alter their body, and while I don't understand it, I now accept it. I also accept that my discomfort may say more about me and my rigidity than it does them.
As far as the child is concerned, as I've said before, it is our reactions to what they have chosen that will make the child's life difficult. To be raised in a loving, supportive home, no matter who gave birth, is a wonderful thing. The child would think their home was normal (at least during the crucial years) unless other people tell them it isn't normal. The child will have a "mother'" and a "father" as far as it is concerned, although I am guessing the roles will be fluid as this couple probably shares a lot of responsibilities for what our culture defines as male or female activity. The most important thing, as many of the fathers on this board know, is that love is gender-blind and nurturing is a human instinct, not just a female instinct. This child, in the confines of its home and its community (which is the gay/lesbian and transgendered community) will feel normal. It is when it's story follows it into the rest of the world that there will be some hurdles.
Rather than blame the parents, why don't each of us do what we can in the world to develop and show compassion and tolerance and encourage those around us to do the same. That's where the real change needs to come.
Feel free to go to the Advocate and read what Thomas Beattie said in his own words.
http://www.advocate.com/issue_story_ektid52664.asp?page=1 | |
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| Making a family or what????
Posted: 7/8/2008 9:41:04 AM |
"My Dad was My Mom" will make lots more money then "My Parents Were Straight and Stayed Together"
Actually, the latter one might make as much money as the first. Especially in this day and age. Parents staying married and staying together is a huge abnormality in this day and age. Both books would definitely be worth something. | |
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