shimbo
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Joined: 6/15/2008
Msg: 26 | |
| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 8:16:33 PM |
when someone is unwilling to work on themselves, I have no interest in being in a relationship with them
Alas, the woe.
I can still remember when women pined away for a man who was "comfortable in his own skin". Now they seek only to skin me. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 8:24:04 PM | | I agree with everyone that suggest moving on from someone who cannot communicate. Your job is not to solve their past nor suffer from their past which you had nothing to do with. No one is worth being ignored. They want you to chase them and deal with their issues. That is for a therapist not an intimate partner or boyfriend/girlfriend. Let them go. The only excuse I can think of would be for this behavior is if abuse is involved then there is an excuse for flight. Take my advice or leave it. Have a nice day. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 8:30:55 PM | | You made me think about my conflict resolution skills. I do not retreat, but I definately don't talk right away. I hope I'm not seen as passive-agressive. But I tend to be overly emotional when I need to resolve something. So, I try to wait a bit, digest information, and then talk about it later when I'm calm. I realy do try to take a step back and see both sides instead of running my mouth right away. But I have been accused of not saying how I felt "on demand." I had felt a lack of understanding how I need to communicate when things get rough - and it only made it harder to talk. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 8:32:30 PM |
I can still remember when women pined away for a man who was "comfortable in his own skin". Now they seek only to skin me.
Not at all. However, speaking as a woman who was in a relationship with a man who had as much (if not more) baggage than I, but who was unwilling to even acknowledge it ~ let alone work on it ~ a relationship cannot work when only one person is putting forth effort. I grew weary of being in a relationship all by myself. Being comfortable in one's own skin is wonderful, but when one feels that way to the detriment of his personal relationships, then something is wrong. As Dr. Phil says, you can't change what you don't acknowledge. I am a person who is always striving to grow and evolve and I want the same from a significant other.
The only excuse I can think of would be for this behavior is if abuse is involved then there is an excuse for flight.
That might be an explanation for the behavior, but it is not an excuse to continue the behavior. While we aren't responsible for what happened to us as children, we are 100% responsible for what we do about it as adults. And to choose not to get the necessary professional help to work through those issues and reach some point of peace and resolution, well that is something nobody could successfully rationalize to me. I've been there, I've done it, and I won't have anyone in my life who chooses to live out their adulthood as a professional victim. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 8:35:35 PM | Kyn no offense taken, but it is not a matter of having booboos it is a matter of backing off rather then fight, is this not better then escalating into physical violence?
Paumanok
I couldn't agree more every one has their flaws if mine is to retreat then I can think of far worse things.
ClassyfiedAlly you misinterpreted what I have said every human continues to develop and grow otherwise they are already in the grave. But this is a defense mechanizm the alternative is to open oneself to abuse, which I see as a greater evil.
Artistee there will always be people who quit, but a retreat is far different the quitting. retreating to calm a situation can be most productive where as allowing a negative situation to escalate is counter productive.
Themedinaman the rules are simple, take time and patience to earn each others respect and trust.
Perhaps Custard would have done a greater service if he had retreated rather then arrogantly thinking only about winning? Retreat is not always a negative thing, it can be the wise alternative. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 8:40:04 PM | I have zero tolerance for a retreating game. If they go it's because they don't love you or care about like they say they do, so let them go  if they come back they care if not they never did care about you in the first place. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 8:51:48 PM | I was the one who was litterally left out in the cold to wonder God knows what had happened. One minute things were great and we had been dating for over a month, been talking /emailing for over 3 months and he puts up a brick wall fasterthan you can say "Jack Rabbit". All because there were events coming up that I wished to involve him and his children if he was ready. It hurt like hell. Obviously we are not meant to be together. I'm interested in any retreaters who reply to your thread. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 8:52:48 PM | ClassyfiedAlly you misinterpreted what I have said every human continues to develop and grow otherwise they are already in the grave. But this is a defense mechanizm the alternative is to open oneself to abuse, which I see as a greater evil.
No, I think my interpretation was spot on. And as I said, I have been there and done it, so I think I'm qualified on some level to know what I'm talking about. And no, not every human continues to develop and grow; if only that were the case, life would be grand. As for defense mechanisms, those developed in childhood to deal with trauma are effective ~ in childhood. When we reach adulthood, however, they are not only ineffective, they become quite toxic and self destructive. If one gets professional help to work through their past, they can successfully circumvent getting involved with abusive people in the present. It's not about choosing the lesser of two evils; it's about accepting personal responsibility for your own self, your own life, and not making others suffer for what has happened to you in the past. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 8:53:51 PM | Kyn no offense taken, but it is not a matter of having booboos it is a matter of backing off rather then fight, is this not better then escalating into physical violence?
Umm...I cant see how it *would* escalate into a verbal fight. If someone is *that* volatile that they need to walk away frankly they *should* be in therapy.
My ex and I had maybe 3 verbal arguments in 7 years. We just didnt argue cos we talked things through.
And also...by walking away...its almost guaranteed behavior to create the "fight" they're hoping to avoid or at the very least...for people like me...to not want to bother with them. Self sabotaging and drama laden behavior.
Communication isnt about confrontation and certainly the object is not to lead to escalation...its about the need to avoid confrontation in the first place.
Just a quick note to this thread because my own son was displaying this avoidance personality trait and I think its pertinent as he hasnt been subjective to any defining trauma, verbal abuse or negation of his thoughts and feelings.
So...he was displaying the behavior...becoming very withdrawn as a means to cope with situations ...and becoming angry in general.
I pulled the kid up. Sat him down and told him he was making *himself* angry.
That he was making *himself* miserable simply because he was choosing not to share what was going on inside his own heart & head.
That by making himself angry and miserable and sad...he was then taking these feelings out on everyone closest to him (family).
I told the kid...its not right, its not fair on everyone else and that for him not to feel that way...it was up to *him* to share what goes on inside and diffuse the situations before they became volatile.
Now this kid is still only 11 years of age. And he was smart enough to listen and figure it out and he now has a happy heart and talks to us (family) when/if there is an issue.
If HE can sort it out and he's only a kid...I cant see why a more self aware adult cannot do it especially with therapy.
Because if this kinda behavior ISNT attributed to a NPD and people dont seek counselling for it...then people HAVE to accept its purely because they're behaving like immature adults, sulking & doing it on purpose.
And other people just dont have to put up with it. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 9:13:33 PM | I haven't had a relationship since my divorce, but have seen it a lot in others' relationships. I've experienced it several times online. I don't get it either.
I used to actually expect in such instances - always silly misunderstandings or wrong assumptions about something someone *thought* was said or done - that the other person would come back and say, "Okay, that didn't go well, but obviously it was a silly mistake. Let's try again; clean slate." But it hardly ever happens that way. People just sulk off and that's the end. And, yep, you try to be the one to extend the olive branch and they ignore you.
I'm an INFJ, for those familiar with Meyer-Briggs types, so I do tend to get quiet and/or withdraw when I am first upset or hit with sudden conflict, but just long enough to process what happened/is happening in my own mind and figure out how best to handle it. Then I want to talk it out; I don't like to have lingering conflicts with people.
And the sad thing is that so many of these problems could easily be resolved with a simple "I'm sorry," or a little bit of compromise.
Why does it happen? I think a variety of reasons. Not to pick on men, and you're obviously comfortable talking since you brought it up, but I think a lot of men who were raised to "suck it up" as boys when they were upset or hurt still have difficulty talking about how they feel - unless it's to yell or otherwise show anger. And a lot of women probably fear getting too emotional or actually do feel too emotional to talk calmly. A lot of people are just immature. And how many of us were specifically taught acceptable conflict resolution skills? I know it didn't happen in my home or schools... I've had to figure it out on my own by trial and error, and I've made plenty of errors.
I'm still learning, and also looking forward to the other replies. | |
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shimbo
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Joined: 6/15/2008
Msg: 36 | |
| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 9:15:45 PM |
And other people just dont have to put up with it.
Pot.
Kettle.
black. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 9:21:46 PM |
I want to hear the opinions of others on why some people become angry and retreat.. Especially when no one is fighting with them or being nasty?
IMO, the why isn't nearly as relevant to the behavior.
Why turn their back and run from someone who cares about them?
Because they choose to.
Wishes to talk things out.. and even help them to heal their hurts and fears?
They choose not to talk things out, and aren't interested in having their hurts healed or their fears alleviated.
Actually - classic indicators that one may be dealing with a passive-aggressive (passivity being the covert expression of aggression), or other personality-disordered individual. None of which warrants, IMO, less than a "see ya, wouldn't want to be ya".
Instead of talking it out, the other party becomes almost infuriated. Then, they ignore you, don't call, don't email.. You can be as nice as pie, be understanding, care and be caring.. But they will flat out refuse to say a word. They will let anger and spitefulness consume them.. Yep - sounds like classic P/A manipulation at a minimum. As for the someone who cares about them continually encountering this conduct in a partner? IMO, struggling to hold onto the illusion initially created for them. Think back from the onset of such a relationship and one will find it was all about them, from the onset. They enjoy the game of manipulation so much they have no interest in "healing" and "love" at all - only the game. JMHO | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 9:24:57 PM | Ditto to angels post above.
And with that said...
Pot.
Kettle.
black
Poster...are you actually contributing anything to the thread or just feel like making underhanded personal remarks?
Feel free to email me with your issue...otherwise feel free to follow the posting rules.
Most people dont have a problem following them or irrationally attacking other people...well...people that dont have personality disorders anyway.
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 9:29:00 PM | It was asked for a person who retreats to give an honest version of their side of the story. The truth is we have better things to do then stick around and put up with the verbal abuse of those people who refuse to see thierselves as anything but perfect. It is a waste of time and energy to try to reason with people who only can blame others, without comprehending they play a role in things that happen to them. This is why we retreat cause there is nothing to be gained by trying to talk to you.
goodnite | |
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gvnage
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Joined: 6/16/2008
Msg: 40 | |
| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 9:34:40 PM | | yeah, to add to previous post, I think also in addition to agreeing with what you say above, that there are folks who are perfectionists and cannot bear to be accountable when that means admitting a mistake on their part. Maybe in their immature thinking, if they are not perfect, they will not get love. I dated one of those once. The irony? He completely drove me off bc of his unwillingness to take ownership of his stuff. I know he had once told me that 'he was always rejected in the end by women'. I guess he externalized the source of the problem bc he didnt want to look at himself. I feel there is terrific freedom in knowing I am accountable and dont have to watch out for 'backlash' from something I may have once done. Life must be pretty lonely for those wo haven't figured this one out yet. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 9:37:55 PM | | I agree with Lady with no name actually as NOT everyone who retreats has a personality disorder or other disorder yet have found themselves with someone quite fixated on the blame game. Her perspective would be the flip side of the coin, IMO. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 9:49:11 PM | NOT everyone who retreats has a personality disorder or other disorder yet have found themselves with someone quite fixated on the blame game. Her perspective would be the flip side of the coin, IMO.
This may be the case sometimes, but certainly not all the time. I would bet it's not even the case most of the time. The man I was in a relationship with (whom I referred to in an earlier post) not only withdrew when there was conflict and refused to acknowledge his own baggage or work on it ~ he also blamed me for everything that was wrong in the relationship. He even blamed me for his own behavior, his own choices ~ somehow in his warped view of life, even things he did were somehow my fault. Fortunately, I never bought into this. These days, I know better.
Lady, I don't think anyone here is trying to say they're perfect ~ certainly not I. However, when I'm in a relationship and there is conflict or problems, the first thing I do is look at my role in it and what I can do to fix that. But when only one person does this, it cannot and will not work. Your entire last post is all about "him"; I don't hear one word of personal accountability on your part. Sounds to me as if you like to blame the man for your dysfunctional reaction to conflict. Professional counseling can truly change one's life, but then again, one would have to acknowledge needing the help instead of blaming the other person for their behavior. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 9:55:12 PM | | Interesting. So we are divided into 'retreaters' or 'talking it out' according to the posts I've read here. Looks like the reality is that the retreaters just don't care to resolve any issues as they are half way out the door. I have asked someone about this, a person who refused to discuss problems in a relationship and their answer was that "it was over" and there was no need - on this person's end, to discuss it. As long as things were good, the relationship was good. But when problems arose, this person just left, or retreated, because it was not meant to be long term. I think it sucks, personally. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:06:18 PM | I agree with Lady with no name actually as NOT everyone who retreats has a personality disorder or other disorder yet have found themselves with someone quite fixated on the blame game. Her perspective would be the flip side of the coin, IMO.
True...but...
... what Im finding it difficult to reconcile here is that for people who see withdrawl as a technique...why do they view their interactions as only one of two options?
Silence or confrontation to verbal abuse & possibly violence?
Where is the middle ground in these people's relationships?
Cos I know its certainly not typical to any of mine.
See...withdrawl is one aspect of the NPD side of things...but blaming is another.
And what I am seeing here is...people confessing they use withdrawl as a strategy...and then blaming others when new people refuse to partake of it.
ie.
...they say they withdraw because of other people & their skewed "options" (blaming others)
...its other people's faults when they wont deal with "me" (again blaming others) and particularly blaming new people who have no connection to their "past"
*shrugs* | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:11:49 PM | Kyn, exactly.
And what I am seeing here is...people confessing they use withdrawl as a strategy...and then blaming others when new people refuse to partake of it.
ie. they say they withdraw because of other people (blame)
...its other people's faults when they wont deal with "me" (blame again)
This is what I meant when I said defense mechanisms developed in childhood become toxic and self destructive in adulthood. And it takes a lot of hard work to change that behavior, but it can be done. I am speaking from personal experience and I'm telling you, it can be done but it's not easy and it's not quick. It's a process, not an event. Do the work and you'll be able to participate in a healthy middle ground. Or....keep doing what you've been doing and you'll keep getting what you've been getting. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:21:37 PM | So we are divided into 'retreaters' or 'talking it out' according to the posts I've read here. Looks like the reality is that the retreaters just don't care to resolve any issues as they are half way out the door.
Not necessarily divided one way or the other that I observe, as for one thing, there wasn't enough objective detail in the opening post to elicit anything but opinions based on worse case scenarios. As for the latter quoted statement, a bit presumptuous.
I have asked someone about this, a person who refused to discuss problems in a relationship and their answer was that "it was over" and there was no need - on this person's end, to discuss it. Over is over once that person made that decision. The better approach would be to accept it and move on.
Here's the thing about relationship games, it takes two players to play games. Doesn't matter diddly squat who is right and who is wrong. It's always easiest to blame the partner when the partner doesn't want to play "those" head games, coercion or otherwise, then it is to take ownership for one's own "stuff".
Sometimes the answer to the why isn't all that complicated. If it's not a good "fit", it simply isn't.
JMHO | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:24:50 PM | | Another strategy people use is to frame a situation to suit their preconceptions, label others, make prejudiced attributions and wrap it all up neatly with smug indifference. And when they do that, retreat is not a bad choice. There are people who make it painfully obvious that further discussion requires masochism. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:31:09 PM |
There are people who make it painfully obvious that further discussion requires masochism.
I think that's true. I also think those types of people could accurately be described as abusive ~ just the type of person one can learn to spot and either avoid completely or get away from quickly ~ with help. What you describe is much how it felt for me to try and communicate with my former S.O. ~ an exercise in futility, to put it mildly. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:35:16 PM | I dated a man off and on for a couple of years who loved to pull the silent treatment on me. It was horrible. The more I tried to speak to him the worse it got. It was like some sort of punishment. He would pull this over very little things such as asking him what he considered to be one too many questions during a casual conversation. I guess it irritated him. It would usually happen when he was under a lot of stress at work. Not that this is any kind of excuse. I did alot of reading about it to try to understand it. it is actually very common. Basically it is considered a form of abuse. Instead of talking about what is really bothering them they withold all communication, affection...everything as a way of letting you know you have upset them in some way.
I can't help but wonder if it is also something they had witnessed in their own families. Mom ignoring dad or vice versa. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:36:35 PM |
Why turn their back and run from someone who cares about them?
About a year and a half into our relationship, my ex-gf used to do this as a form of manipulation. We would have an argument, and she would break up with me - no discussion, no trying to work things out. So I would start crawling, begging, and she would say "no, let's just be friends". So I'd admit I was wrong (whether or not I was), beg forgiveness again, and she would act like a saint for getting back together with me.
The first time she did this, I didn't know what was going on. I was just glad that we salvaged the relationship. The second time she did this (two months later), I thought "I hope this doesn't happen again, this is just gut wrenching - and quite humiliating. But we DID salvage things again, and it will be so worth it this time...".
The THIRD time this happened, I said "f*ck it, NOW I know what's going on". She didn't want to talk out what was wrong, she would just break up with me, and two weeks later she was automatically right and I was automatically wrong, because I was willing to agree with whatever she said so we could be together again. Fight - no discussion - breakup - I come back - she wins.
NOW, that will never happen again. You think things are so bad that you'd rather break up than work it out, there's the f*cking door, and it's a one way door.
My whole point (if you're still with me), is that I think all of that crap is just manipulation. They get angry and stay angry so you'll grovel and beg their forgiveness. They give you the silent treatment and withdraw from you so you'll grovel and beg their forgiveness. They break up with you so you'll grovel and beg their forgiveness. My experiences was that a woman was doing this, but it's not a gender thing - some men do it, too. It's just a form of game-playing, and I've said for a long time that games are for kids. You want to play games, go get a jump rope and find a friend. | |
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