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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/4/2008 9:43:19 PM |
I think it's because all they (those who shut down and withdraw) have in their frame of reference is one extreme or the other. They have not experienced or been taught healthy conflict resolution. Therefore in their mind, any conflict equals danger. It's way out of control, very irrational, very dysfunctional, very toxic, and very self destructive. As I've said, coping mechanisms that serve us well as traumatized children do not work once we reach adulthood.
This is so true . . . | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/4/2008 9:51:46 PM | I can repect and feel for someone who has emotional issues.. But when you r dealing with retreaters it is always hard to define what kind of people you are dealing with. Are they damaged souls? Or just mental morons who like to play the emotional abuse game? Most retreaters I have come across in my life were the abuse types.. So I kind of shut down quickly when I see this kind of thing start to happen.
As for those with emotional issues or trauma.. Surely there must be a time in their lives when they realize they blew a good thing.. And ran from a decent person based on their own fears and flashbacks? Why can't these people ever touch base after the fight or flight panic is over.. And communicate to the person they fled away from why they did it? Maybe try to work through it a little bit?
It's strange how the human mind works.. I agree with the one poster who said she prefers emotionally healthy adults. After all.. how many men and women in their 40's and 50's... and even beyond have so many issues that they never worked through? Doesn't it get old living so many years with the mentality of a confused teenager? I'm 41 and have dated some women older than myself who still operated on a 7th or 8th grade level when it came to discussing issues.. NOT EVEN ARGUING.. I MEAN JUST TALKING CALMLY..And they start name calling, arguing, start getting mean and nasty.. Then start pulling foolish things out of the air to try and make it look like your a bad person for wanting to have this talk..And then.. finally they clam up and retreat.. Don't they ever get tired of repeating that cycle and just want some stability in life????
I know I sure do.. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/4/2008 10:02:00 PM | | I just had that very thing happen to me! I have no idea why? No matter what the reason....I think we all deserve an explanation. He went from...."I cant wait to be with you" "I'm counting the days" ..... to "I'm not sure I can be in a relationship right now" and he refuses to explain why?? I've known him for a long time....and I feel like I never knew him at all! | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/4/2008 10:34:59 PM | | internet running very slowly tonight for me and for some reason the site was not editing as usual and kept re posting that one message instead....and now it's taken me so long to get back here, all time allowed to try and delete the extra posts is well over! (so, sorry for the excess!) | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/4/2008 10:47:35 PM |
internet running very slowly tonight and for some reason the site was not editing as usual for me and kept re posting this one message....and now it's taken me so long to get back here, all time allowed to try and delete the extra posts is well over! (so, sorry for the excess!)
Well, since the message is one that bears repeating, it might be a fortunate coincidence and give everyone pause to rethink their perspective, or at least the way they share it...
I wish I'd been able to come up with the words sooner to jump in, but I actually had to go work out and shower first to think it through (not retreating! lol) because I was really disappointed at the negative, antagonistic turn the discussion took almost almost from the start. I almost wasn't going to bother even coming back to read the rest.
But it IS an imporant topic, and one that might actually do some good if everyone could stay positive - or at least neutral - instead of attacking those they see as being on the other side. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/4/2008 10:48:15 PM | theres a thin line between running away and then coming back to talk about the problem
and
running away like a coward and not talking about it.
as long as we talk about the problem. I'm coo with cooling off and then talking about it rather than running away from it. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 4:57:04 AM | I simply ask, if one knows they are like this and how damaging it is, why get involved in a relationship ? Why not first dig deep within and rid the past. Does this not make anyone in your life a victim of your past circumstance?
My life was turned like a topsy turvy by one like this, then he hit the road as if I didnt exist. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 5:02:57 AM | You siad it well, it is abuse.
Do they know what they are doing? I beleive most do, and can control it.
I have read a few books on this and it has been shown that it is a form of control.
What do emotionally stable and healthy adults do when faced with this behavior(this being involved in a realtionship). Try and figure out what the heck has transpired. Thus the person causing this is controlling your thoughts, emotions actions,
I pray for these people as the pain which they inflict is merely a projection of what is deeply rooted within themsleves. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 5:16:43 AM | This is an interesting thread.. many an answer or reason for this to ponder.
I've seen retreat and retreated myself...
In relationships there is a give and take. Getting to know someone and what makes them tick and what makes them talk. Then there are issues you encounter that makes each of us run and retreat. It's finding the understanding of common ground and what we both can agree and accept for each other and ourselves within the relationship.
Initially, its only normal to go after the person and try and talk things over to get a better understanding of what is going on to try and work on it and work it out. But if it keeps on happening and you keep going after them then you go on the attack. The retreat becomes worse and the cycle will continue and get worse. NOt everyone wants your help or the cure. Their own psycological mechanisms are not ready to grow or change. They cannot accept or have not healed from whatever has brought them to retreat from a similar situation. Only until they are willing to face it and conquer it will they over come it. So forcing someone to do that before they are ready scares them off. You are not the one that will help them conquer that block. Only they can do that.
Then there is the dilemma of did you listen to them and did you actually hear what they have said. We often listen but don't hear what someone has said. We only hear what we want to hear for ourselves in our relationships. An example is myself retreating from someone that I've tried to tell there is something they do that makes me step back and sure enough.. they do it.. again .. and again.. and again.. and I've just retreated further and further .. until .. there was no more us.
If it's a repetitive pattern, perhaps it's time to look at ourselves and what we are doing to trigger a retreat in others. If we are retreating on why we are. Perhaps we have drawn someone to us that is part of our own co-dependant cycle. Perhaps we are repeating a cycle they can't handle or a cycle we can't handle. The thing about cycles is it goes around and around until you break it or meet someone that can handle it.
and then.. there comes a time.. you just realize.. that one or the other of you just can't handle the two of you together and you have to accept that it is not going to work. You are incompatable.
Usually when that happens the other party doesn't understand Why because they really didn't understand and they just don't get that. so they get hurt and don't understand why it happened because "things were so good". Were they? They didn't get you to begin with .. so what was so good about it? Usuaslly "they" don't even get that!
Every one of us is different. We all grew up in a different family environment, have had different relationships and different lifestyles in our lives that have moulded us into who we are today. Because of that we are who we are..
it's finding someone that understands that... can accept and live with that or us... for better or worse, and respects us and really knows us for who we really are and brings out the best in us that is the most important thing of all. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 7:41:38 AM | some people get scared and retreat for any little reason. they want to avoid any problem or even hurt themselves by backing away from the very thing they seek.
for me, i retreat if i find out that a woman i'm dating has some kind of criminal background or does drugs like marijuana or worse. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 7:59:47 AM | """ there comes a time.. you just realize.. that one or the other of you just can't handle the two of you together and you have to accept that it is not going to work. You are incompatable.
Usually when that happens the other party doesn't understand .... so they get hurt and don't understand why it happened because "things were so good". Were they? They didn't get you to begin with .. so what was so good about it? """
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This would describe me (and many others after the breakup). "Things were so good"...EXCEPT, trying to talk once every 3 months, about this or that "odd" thing with a retreater (also applies to non retreaters with other issues).
For example, exGF started a succesful diet ...so I gave her a small box of "Healthy organic highfiber flax pasta"... she used to love noodles and Ragu (not much of a cook) "hmm, I'll have to check my diet for this". "Ok, cool I think this kind of noodle could let you eat a little spaghetti again".... 2 months later before Valentines day I let her know "I have made reservations at cute little restaurant you have mentioned you've never been to". she "Is this the kind of place I should skip lunch before?".. "Yes"....WE get there its a cozy Italian place with small to modest size fresh spaghettie dinner....SHE EATS about 1/2 hers..OK, no biggie more for me....FastForward 6 weeks to Saturday, spring shopping for plants and shrubs etc.....she says "Can I treat you to Olive Garden for lunch, I've lost 40 lbs and met my goal, and you not complain about the price" (that's the jist, because I don't pop in to restaurants and plunk down $20 person just cause I'm hungry, I'm a great cook). I said, "That'd be great, I'm not gonna complain, sure"..
Ok two big fat oily plates fettucini later (again she ate 1/2, ok). I asked her. "I am curious why we are eating here, when I bought you the highfiber multigrain flax pasta you said you can't eat much carbs, then I thought we were both looking forward to Valentines day and you didn't eat hardly any spaghetti, and now today on a whim, when its your idea, we go out for major Olive Garden lunch" ? (Okok, I said I wasn't going to "complain")
She had no answer at all....something like "I just felt like it, I'm unpredictable". Unpredictable is one thing, but "I must tell you, on Valentines day I thought you really wanted to go to that place then you didn't eat much dinner"....No answer from her, just kind of a "its no big deal". I said "Valentines day was, I was looking forwards all week to enjoying the evening with you, which we did of course"
Similarly, just before I met her, she wrote a letter to the editor about "Obeying the Speed Limit" Ok, no prob, good for her right ? Well last year I saw her at lunch time buzz down the street where I was at a stop sign, 35 turns into 25 later, so I punch the gas and try and catch up and wave, I am flooring it 35 4o 45 in the 35, then it turns to 25 "weeeee". No way can I catch up. The next day, I said "I saw you Friday go by me at the stopsign, and I waved and tried to catch up...Aren't you the girl who wrote a letter to the editior to obey the speed limit"? she said "I don't remember Friday lunchtime, don't know where I was going". "No that's not important, I guess I want to know why someone who writes a letter to the editor about speeding goes flying down a 25 zone at 40, I'm really curious"....."I must have been in a hurry, are you satisfied with that answer or are you going to dwell on this?.... "Well, no not really".
"""it's finding someone that understands ... can accept and live with that or us...and respects us and really knows us for who we really are and brings out the best in us that is the most important thing of all.""" That's what we want, and I did think things were "going great", willing to accept these "that's just me" answers, until we broke up without a word of warning a few months ago....
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 9:46:19 AM |
I simply ask, if one knows they are like this and how damaging it is, why get involved in a relationship ?
I think this is a really good question -- one I've wondered myself. Since relationships consist of give and take, always involve conflict and can only grow if there's mutual communication, how can a retreater think that they can have a good relationship with anyone? | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 11:38:10 AM | Since relationships consist of give and take, always involve conflict and can only grow if there's mutual communication, how can a retreater think that they can have a good relationship with anyone?
I personally dont think they are capable of being involved in a "normal" relationship.
ie. one based on communication & healthy debate or yes even confrontation at times.
I think they choose partners who are polar opposites...who are over bearing, someone they dont have to give input to or offer opinions to or make decisions with.
And then lay the blame at that persons feet for their retreat.
They seek what enables their own behavior.
And they simply exist within relationships on the fringes. They arent actually "in" them.
This is why...there are sooooo many people who question their behavior as to WHY they do it...cos most people are not strongarm tacticians within relationships and they dont expect a completely passive partner.
This is why...I stated at the beginning...that if I come across those type of people...I just dont want to be involved with them.
And again...their stance on that ...was to blame other people for not wanting to be involved with them.
From my previous posts
Apparently its representative of one of the personality disorders.
Specifically NPD and has its foundation in the Craving personality.
withdrawl is one aspect of the NPD side of things...but blaming is another.
And what I am seeing here is...people confessing they use withdrawl as a strategy...and then blaming others when new people refuse to partake of it.
ie.
...they say they withdraw because of other people & their skewed "options" (blaming others)
...its other people's faults when they wont deal with "me" (again blaming others) and particularly blaming new people who have no connection to their "past"
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 11:40:21 AM |
I think they choose partners who are polar opposites...who are over bearing, someone they dont have to give input to or offer opinions to or make decisions with.
And then lay the blame at that persons feet for their retreat.
They seek what enables their own behavior.
Wow, that makes perfect sense! Then the two people in the relationship point fingers at each other and neither grows.
Amazing answer. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 11:54:52 AM | | People are scared of bad relationships.A problem rises they see a red fag and they run,usually from people who have allot of baggage not delt with.Fear of making the wrong choice.In another ay you don't want to end up being a counselor. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 11:55:47 AM | Wow, that makes perfect sense! Then the two people in the relationship point fingers at each other and neither grows.
Two abusers co-existing.
I daresay...that these people consider their partners to be abusive.
And what they dont realise is...their behavior is classified as psychological abuse in the exact same way as an aggressive and/or violent abusive personality type is.
And theirs is... not any better... nor more excusable than the other. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 12:02:59 PM |
And what they dont realise is...their behavior is classified as psychological abuse in the exact same way as an aggressive and/or violent abusive personality type is.
Yeppers!  | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 1:11:16 PM | I think they choose partners who are polar opposites...who are over bearing, someone they dont have to give input to or offer opinions to or make decisions with.
And then lay the blame at that persons feet for their retreat.
They seek what enables their own behavior.
And they simply exist within relationships on the fringes. They arent actually "in" them.
I think this is true in the case of my former S.O.; his first wife, second wife, and myself all have strong personalities. He was very controlling, but you know what ~ I didn't recognize it until after I'd left the relationship. My daughter shared something his daughter had said about him and I had a light bulb moment. It was strange because I've dealt with many controlling people in my life before, but none like him. In my experience, they'd been aggressive, in your face, yelling, screaming, telling me what I could and couldn't do. He was very different; he had major control issues, but he wasn't aggressive and in your face. He liked to make unilateral decisions that affected us both, had to be the one to decide if we went on vacation, where we went, when we went, how long we stayed, what hotel we stayed in, and where we ate. He had to decide if, when, and where we dined out; if, when, where, and with whom we socialized, etc. I used to join him in activities I had no particular interest in just to share time together and broaden my horizons. But when I'd ask him to join me doing something I enjoyed, he'd say, "Why would I want to do that?" It was ridiculous and childish.
As for retreating, he'd do that whenever the conversation became uncomfortable for him. He was the most hypersensitive person I'd ever known in terms of criticism, or what I view as constructive feedback. When someone offers me such, I see it as a gift and I strive to learn from it and grow. He just felt attacked, would completely shut down, and no further communication was possible. None. If I attempted to revisit the issue at a later time, the same thing happened. He'd say, "I just want a relationship without all these problems...", yet he was unwilling to lift a finger to make that happen.
As for confrontation, let's examine what it is, exactly:
con·front /k?n'fr?nt/ [kuhn-fruhnt]
–verb (used with object)
1. to face in hostility or defiance; oppose: The feuding factions confronted one another.
2. to present for acknowledgment, contradiction, etc.; set face to face: They confronted him with evidence of his crime.
3. to stand or come in front of; stand or meet facing: The two long-separated brothers confronted each other speechlessly.
4. to be in one's way: the numerous obstacles that still confronted him.
5. to bring together for examination or comparison.
As in #5, confrontation does not always mean anger, hostility, and aggressiveness. It can be a very calm, even toned conversation about an issue or problem. I am non-confrontational by nature, so I can relate to those who are uncomfortable with it. I have been known to avoid it when I anticipate it will be either angry, unproductive, or abusive. If I believe there is progress to be made and the other person is capable of "fighting fairly", I'm there. For me, it's all in how I'm approached. If someone approaches me respectfully, I can participate in a productive dialogue. If one goes on the attack, however, I'm not likely to participate as I would expect it to turn abusive and be unproductive. Confrontation does not equal abuse, and I think some people completely confuse the two.
In a relationship, I will definitely raise issues and work to resolve them, but if the other person withdraws...I'm done. Not gonna go there again ~ too much work with zero benefit. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 2:20:53 PM | The passive-aggressive person, who usually withdraws, punishes with silence or retreats does not see him/herself as the culprit and sees the other person as attacking and "making" them feel a certain way -- Certainly people can inspire feelings in others. But no one has the power to make a person behave in a certain way.
The problem, as I see it (but something that a retreater can't readilly admit because they are blind to it) is the core feeling of powerlessness and low-self esteem -- that is where they act from but they blame other people for the actions.
What person needs to control others, if not someone who feels that they have no control?
I totally agree the way I'm approached is a very big key to how I will respond to criticism. If I'm attacked or approached in a guilt-inducing, character assasicinating manner then I know the person does not have good intentions towards me and I will not willing subject myself to abuse.
However, it takes a long time for someone who has been hurt in the past to determine who the healthy people are from the people who are attacking.
They instead see attacking people in everyone and behave on the defensive towards everyone.
I am going out on a limb but I bet you hypersensitivity and retreatism go hand in hand.
Of course this discussion wouldn't be complete w/o introducing the enablers, who unwittingly keep retreaters from realizing how destructive their behavior is by defending them and making excuses for them. These are usually the mothers, relatives or friends. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 3:09:25 PM | Of course this discussion wouldn't be complete w/o introducing the enablers, who unwittingly keep retreaters from realizing how destructive their behavior is by defending them and making excuses for them. These are usually the mothers, relatives or friends
This is HUGE in importance IMO.
I touched on that topic specifically back at my post #34 in dealing with my own son.
Ontop of all this discussion...all of this fallout...is WHY...when people are in abusive relationships etc...the very LAST thing they should argue for staying in those dysfunctional families...is for the sake of the children and wanting to be a family.
The long term consequences of not being pro-active in dealing with these situations are lifetimes of issues for everyone involved.
Its not statistically or psychologically unknown that abusers are the product of an abusive environment & childhood.
So just because a child doesnt act out in an aggressive manner the way their abusive parent taught them...it doesnt mean they dont become abusers themselves in another format.
Dont enable or perpetuate the cycle.
Just because someone is unfortunate in life to come across a "monster"...it doesnt mean you have to become one yourself or create new ones. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 4:32:05 PM | Its not statistically or psychologically unknown that abusers are the product of an abusive environment & childhood.
So just because a child doesnt act out in an aggressive manner the way their abusive parent taught them...it doesnt mean they dont become abusers themselves in another format.
Right on target. Actually, there are many ways to act out aggressively although the aggression in and of itself appears to be passive on the surface.
Also, as far as the retreating game, take for a moment the element of abuse and dysfunction out of the picture momentarily. There are occasions when timing of a discussion is everything and doesn't necessarily mean that one or the other partner is being abusive to the other when approached at the wrong time. Just because it isn't the right time to discuss "what's wrong" don't always mean the one not wanting to talk is retreating - or shall we say "avoiding". Case in point - imagine coming home from work after driving over an hour in bumper to bumper traffic, add to that a flat tire for good measure and no sooner do you get home, instead of "hi honey" you get "we need to talk about what's wrong with our relationship" (while you're still decompressing over the crappy day it was in general). Ummm, I certainly would not be receptive at that moment to that kind of discussion nor would most people.
As far as the OPost, as presented, sounds like there was a lot already broken that led up to the "retreating" behavior perceived as a game. Just thought I'd toss that in for balance. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 8:21:48 PM | In the case in point above, as far as having a bad day, I wouldn't call that retreating behavior IF it was communicated that the person didn't feel like talking right now but would be receptive to talking later.
IMO, a retreater never says what they are thinking or feeling -- they just retreat or disappear or leave. There is no communication or if there is, it isn't honest. | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 9:39:46 PM | I have totally admitted that I have a tendency to retreat. But that is in situations where the other person is not addressing with respect and being extremely confrontational.
If someone is just asking, wanting to clarify things, I am fine. If they are wanting me to cow tow to them or grovel or whatever their aggressive tactics and are demanding, I am not fine.
The interesting thing in this thread that I am noticing that apparently people that have trouble with retreaters seem to have experienced it several times. I , in my whole life, have never had anyone retreat on me. It has never been an issue. I don`t think I have ever been so aggressively confrontational as to cause a person to retreat.
So before you raise the finger of blame totally to the retreatist that they are all of the blame and how they have hurt "YOU", Has it ever occurred to those that have a problem with people retreating that maybe you are hurting them? Or is this not a consideration as to how you confront them?
I mean really. it`s kind of like adding insult to injury. If you are aggressive and coming at someone, not even giving them time to breathe and respond,then they just leave to get their head together and to let you cool off. Then you say that they hurt you by leaving?
Give me a break. That is not abuse. Not even close. That is basically saying that the victim needs to take his licks, like you want them to, or you are upset.
If I won`t deal with a person, it is for a good reason ,and they have totally brought it on themselves. If they cannot confront in a respectful manner, I do not want their company period, end of story. They weren`t thinking of me when they came after me.
I`m sorry , but some of the posters sound like they want whipping boys. They sound more like the abusers, not the people that flee. And since when is leaving being abusive? Because you won`t be disrespected is abusive? I don`t think so.
Again, if you have problems with people not wanting to be in your company, have you ever thought that there might be a reason? Like maybe you are miserable to be around? | |
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| The Retreating Game
Posted: 7/5/2008 10:12:59 PM | I don`t think I have ever been so aggressively confrontational as to cause a person to retreat.
If I won`t deal with a person, it is for a good reason ,and they have totally brought it on themselves.
And the blaming continues....nice. Healthy. Productive. Fact: nobody can "make" you withdraw; that is a choice you make all by yourself. It isn't anybody else's fault or responsibility.
if you have problems with people not wanting to be in your company, have you ever thought that there might be a reason? Like maybe you are miserable to be around?
Who said anything about retreaters not wanting to be in someone's company? Emotional withdrawal is about refusing to communicate, refusing to share what is going on inside, refusing to deal with problems in an adult manner. It's about running and hiding like a child because the coping skills to deal with conflict are absent or broken. For some, it's also about using silence to punish another person; to let them know you're upset without actually having to behave like an adult and say, "I'm upset." Refusing to tolerate abuse is not the same thing, IMO, and that is not what the OP was about. It's about being unwilling to communicate about even the most minor conflicts and work through them, choosing instead to avoid, be silent, punish, put up walls, and shut down. And again ~ nobody makes you behave this way. If you do, when you do, it's because you choose to do so. Nobody has the power to make you do anything, especially anything emotional. Even if they held a gun to your head and said,"take your clothes off", you still have a choice whether or not to comply.
Besides, anyone who blames other people for their behavior and misguidedly believes another person has the power to make them do things or feel things is living their life as a victim. I'd think that would be an effective wake up call, I mean who would choose to live their life as a powerless victim? Ick. | |
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