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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/7/2008 5:22:50 AM |
According to Wikipedia, legend has it was good marketing on the part of Erik the Red who figured it would attract more settlers (if he was more vain, it may have been called Redland).
A great source. Wikipedia,
Try http://www.greenland-guide.gl/leif2000/history.htm
Erik the Red - Leif Eriksson's father. In the 960s Erik the Red, a fiery Norwegian, was exiled from his home in Norway. He went to Iceland, where he married Thjodhildur. He was later banished from there for three years. Erik headed west and discovered a land with an inviting fjord landscape and fertile, green valleys. He was greatly impressed by the land's resources, and he returned to Iceland and spoke about this land, which he called "the green land". | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/7/2008 5:46:40 AM | Here is a well researched source, it's called Collapse, I own it,
Greenland was called Greenland by Erik the Red , who was in exile and wanted to attract people to a new colony. He thought you should give a land a good name so people would want to go there! It likely was a bit warmer when he landed for the first time than it was when the last settlers starved due to a number of factors -- climate change, or at least some bad weather, a major one.
But it was never lush, and their existence was always harsh and meager, especially due to the Viking's disdain for other peoples and ways of living. They attempted to live a European lifestyle in an arctic climate, side by side with Inuit who easily outlasted them. They starved surrounded by oceans and yet never ate fish! (Note: this was not a typical European behavior, and is a bit of a mystery to this day.)
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/7/2008 2:05:04 PM |
I don't understand why people make such a big deal about this. Whether global warming is a reality or a hoax, does it really matter? Shouldn't we work on cleaning up the environment either way? Whether we reduce emissions from cars to prevent global warming or to make the air cleaner for us to breathe, isn't the process the same?
Also, is it just me, or does it seem that people who are strongly vocal in either direction on global warming seem to be tied strongly to one political pole or the other? Shouldn't scientific research be about more than politics?
You would think so, especially on an issue as important as the end of the world. For those not tied to either the left or the right, I'll just repeat back some interesting statistics I've picked up here and there:
1. Human beings release about 7 billion tons of CO2 into our atmosphere every year. Nature has been releasing an estimated 100-200 billion tons of CO2, removing the same amount through natural processes.
2. A majority of people I know personally who have investigated climate change have reported back to me that gw is a a hoax. While I, personally believe that climate change is going on, and that it is partially anthropomorphic, I don't agree with all of the conclusions that we're being led to, e.g., so many binding international treaties, increased energy costs, smart growth policies, increased mass transit subsidies, etc.
3. Cloud layers in Costa Rica, for example, have been rising due to warming there, greatly reducing the available habitat for some rainforest species. The north pole has been melting more often during the Spring, though with the extremes of ice melt, water levels have not risen even by two feet. Many rivers that used to have flooding every 100 years (like the Mississipi) are seeing this happen ever 10-15 years. There are parts of the world seeing record rainfall, while others are are seeing regular drought.
4. Geothermal, nuclear, solar, wind, tidal, and hydroelectric power are now offering cost effective and environmentally friendly ways to meet nearly all of our energy demands. Technological development has made the need for coal and oil nearly obsolete. We don't need to release large quantities of CO2, sulfur, nitrates, dioxins, or almost any other harmful compound into the air or water. I read somewhere that the increased medical costs alone (lung disease, lung cancer, asthma, etc.) exceed the savings of using fossil fuels to produce energy.
5. CharlesEdm, sheildvulf, and others have repeatedly stated, "The downside of press freedom is that any hack with an ax can grind it in public," or something to that effect. While I'm not a conservative myself, I don't think that I've ever heard one criticizing freedom of speech. There are many examples, even in the pof forum, of folks on the other side criticizing freedom of speech--ignoring the arguments and ridiculing the poster or originator of an idea.
Both sides are presenting facts and statistics, but are doing so selectively, which is not in the best interest of open debate. For people like me who are undecided about the issue, it makes it impossible to decide the matter. Even in this very thread, I have seen some of the gw advocates employing ridicule, and folks on both sides resorting to name calling, both of which are contrary to the rules that we have agreed to follow by posting here. | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/7/2008 2:13:03 PM |
1. Human beings release about 7 billion tons of CO2 into our atmosphere every year. Nature has been releasing an estimated 100-200 billion tons of CO2, removing the same amount through natural processes.
C02 levels are measurably higher in our atmosphere, also you're not looking at other greenhouse gases. | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/7/2008 2:17:00 PM | The original argument was that it was GLOBAL WARMING.
But as the truth is coming out about that fallacy, the argument had to be changed to GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE.
The argument will change as more truth comes to light.
People like Al Gore will still try instill FEAR and claim the sky is falling and the oceans will rise, dogs and cats living together, etc...
Of course anyone that challenges the big lie, will just have their character attacked. Just like Lawrence Solomon. As long as he towed the Party Lie, we was accepted.
Now he is reporting the truth and all of a sudden, he's a quack.
When will the lie stop being forced down our collective throats?
It will never stop, it will just get a new name, and more grants to people pushing the same lie.
Where can I get my grant? I need a new car.
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/7/2008 2:46:55 PM | surethyng
I think the global warming ploy is destined to be exposed as the fraud that it is . It will take time though . This CO2 Global Warming due to mans intervention is minimal On BBC ( March 27 2007 ) documentary on this. After taking Ice Samples from the North Pole dating back to The Medieval period. Warming kicked in about 950, followed by the Little Ice Age beginning about 1300. The Little Ice Age ended in about 1860. Period, ( In London the River Thames froze over )
In the medieval period. 950 onwards. it showed that CO 2 emissions to be measured (Ice Samples from the North Pole ) at three times the present values they are today. All due to the earth's natural heating up, by Sun activity giving off Flares of radiation (natural Sun spots) The build up of CO2 is the natural way the earth deals with itself, to protect its self.
When it gets Hotter the earth releases its CO2. There is nothing you can do about it. Cars only over give out 2% .extra Autumn Leaf fall give off 6 times more than this 12% The sea gives up a massive 70 %. Just because the earth is heating up naturally. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3869753.stm
Great way to get the Tax in. | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/7/2008 4:57:52 PM | Charles refer back to Msg 27 In your quote is according to Wikipedia, .There was not citation where your quote came from.
The tourist webpage? Just refuted Wikipedia, in your post. Still refutes your page also.
http://www.greenland.com/content/english/tourist/nature_climate/fauna_of_greenland
Greener than you think Colourful flowers, plants, bushes and heaths make beautiful contrasts to the icebergs and the white expanse of the ice sheet in Greenland. This is now during a warming trend. So It had to be green in 950AD
Greenland was warm in 950AD. http://www.cgfi.org/tag/global-warming/
CHURCHVILLE, VA—The most awful thing about man-made global warming is that it’s our own fault. It’s our own greedy materialism that has the planet’s climate headed toward disaster. Or so we’re told.
The world has been through climate guilt trips before, however. During the 400 years of the Dark Ages (540 to 950 AD) the climate turned cold, cloudy and stormy, with poor crops and widespread hunger
What really happened was a climate shift. The earth had enjoyed 800 years of the pleasant Roman Warming, with good crops and few storms. Then, about 540 AD, the earth shifted into a harsh, unstable global cooling.
Then, God’s anger seemed to disappear. About 950 AD, sunny skies warmed the planet again for 350 years. The growing seasons became long and fruitful, populations doubled, and plague was only a memory. A huge proportion of the world’s now-famous cathedrals and temples were built as people expressed their gratitude.
After the year 1300, came another climate shift—into the Little Ice Age. Today, too, global warming is our fault: our sport-utility vehicles, our air conditioners, our energy-hungry lifestyles. But as climatologist Roy Spencer of the University of Alabama/Huntsville has written, “This myth continues despite that fact that there have been NO scientific papers published with evidence that our current warmth is not due to natural climate variability.”
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/7/2008 6:03:11 PM |
In your quote is according to Wikipedia, .....Erik The Red was an astute marketing manager! That's the extent of the quote! LOL, Bill...you crack me up.
If you had simply googled the title of Charles' post, you would have found it on page one.
A tourist web page? That's marketing for ya!
In reference to your last citation, what it doesn't tell you is how the warming and cooling trends happened.
It's a well established fact that climate changes naturally and sometimes dramatically. The pertinent question isn't "has climate changed in the past?" (of course it has) but "what is causing global warming now?" To begin to answer that, it's helpful to look at the major causes of natural climate change in the past. Solar activity
Solar variations have been the major driver of climate change over the past 10,000 years. When sunspot activity was low during the Maunder Minimum in the 1600's or the Dalton Minimum in the 1800's, the earth went through 'Little Ice Ages'. Similarly, solar activity was higher during the Medieval Warm Period.
However, the correlation between solar activity and global temperatures ended around 1975. At that point, temperatures started rising while solar activity stayed level. This led a team of scientists from Finland and Germany to conclude "during these last 30 years the solar total irradiance, solar UV irradiance and cosmic ray flux has not shown any significant secular trend, so that at least this most recent warming episode must have another source." More on the sun & global warming... Milankovitch cycles
Earth's climate undergoes 120,000 year cycles of ice ages broken by short warm periods called interglacials. The cycle is driven by Milankovitch cycles. Long term changes in the Earth's orbit trigger an initial warming which warms the oceans and melts ice sheets - this releases CO2. The extra CO2 in the atmosphere causes further warming leading to interglacials ending the ice ages.
For the past 12,000 years, we've been in an interglacial. The current trend of the Milankovitch cycle is a gradual cooling down towards an ice age. Volcanoes
Volcanic eruptions spew sulfate aerosols into the atmosphere which has a cooling effect on global temperatures. These aerosols reflect incoming sunlight, causing a 'global dimming' effect. Usually, the cooling effect lasts several years until the aerosols are washed out of the atmosphere. In the case of large eruptions or a succession of eruptions such as in the early 1800's, the cooling effect can last several decades. Strong volcanic activity exacerbated the Little Ice Age in the 1800's. Summary
The usual suspects in natural climate change - solar variations, volcanoes, Milankovitch cycles - are all conspicuous in their absence over the past 3 decades of warming. This doesn't mean by itself that CO2 is the main cause of current global warming - you don't prove anthropogenic warming by eliminating all other options. But the primary causes of commonly cited climate change in the past have played little part in the current warming trend.
As for CO2, empirical observations show that CO2 has a warming effect as a greenhouse gas, CO2 is increasing in the atmosphere and the expected warming you would get from greenhouse gases is occuring. Any alternative theory that found a different cause of global warming would also need to explain why the expected (and observed) warming from CO2 has not eventuated. http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php?a=22
...there have been NO scientific papers published with evidence that our current warmth is not due to natural climate variability.” At the same time there have been NO scientific papers published with evidence that our current warmth is 100% due to natural climate variability.
Anyone who thinks we have little or no impact on this planet and it's climate (as the two are inextricably linked) and we can continue to behave the way we are without consequence to future generations.....simply have their head in the sand. | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/7/2008 11:15:58 PM |
At the same time there have been NO scientific papers published with evidence that our current warmth is 100% due to natural climate variability. Anyone who thinks we have little or no impact on this planet and it's climate (as the two are inextricably linked) and we can continue to behave the way we are without consequence to future generations.....simply have their head in the sand.
No I don’t think so. There is evidence. Message 33 . Cars contribute to 2% to C02. When I look Government figures on a motoring Site ( purchasing a car ) and they suggest I am omitting 58grams per Km. When I work it out per tank full of fuel, the Co2 is suppose weight more than the weight of fuel I am putting in my car, thats when I get a bit suspicious. Of what they are saying
When the Primeminister of England can state that Plastic bags are to be banned ( my years usage @6grams each x weekly shop = 1.5 Kg ) and omit 30% of a car is plastic & rubber (200 Kg ) saying that’s perfectly ok , well something’s wrong. ( 200 Kg =133 year worth of plastic bags every three years ) | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/7/2008 11:40:39 PM |
If the average temperature on the earth increases , then , more co2 is going to be produced. Nobody will argue that the earth has gone through cycles of heating and cooling naturally. If a heating phase produces more co2 , and more co2 produces higher temperatures , then , there would be put into place an unstoppable cycle , and the earth would have over-heated long long ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position).[1] A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it carries little or no real evidential weight, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2]
Congratulations, you kicked that straw mans ass. Good luck finding a climatologist that doesn't claim that the earth has means of returning to an equilibrium state. The argument is that our activities are beyond what the earth is capable of dealing with at this point.
So , it's a very good thing that increased atmospheric co2 does no result in increased overall global temperatures . G.W. has been de-bunked , yet again .
You mean global warming straw man has been debunked.
They changed the name from Global warming to Climate change because thats what it does, changes the climate. Areas get dryer, some areas get wetter, some areas get more storms, there is simply more energy in the system.
Nobody with any scientific credibility argues that the world hasn't gotten warmer. They certainly wouldn't change the name to "climate change" because global warming hasn't happened, people argue about causes now. The facts are already in on the global warming phenomenon. | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/8/2008 12:06:59 AM |
Are you saying that the puney contribution of fossil fuels are a greater incidence of excess on the owrld than nature has produced itself ?
If the world produced it itself it would hardly be excess now wouldn't it?
If the average temperature on the earth increases , then , more co2 is going to be produced. Nobody will argue that the earth has gone through cycles of heating and cooling naturally. If a heating phase produces more co2 , and more co2 produces higher temperatures , then , there would be put into place an unstoppable cycle , and the earth would have over-heated long long ago.
Ahhh yes, lets look at this logic further shall we?
If my little brother grew an inch last year, and he is 5'6 this year, he will be 8 foot six inches in 36 years. I look forward to being brother to the worlds tallest man.
If I turn on my stove, and it heats from 0 farenheit to 450 farenheit in 10 minutes. by the end of the day it will be 64800 farenheit. Yowza!
Obviously there arne't other factors that could come into play. It's almost like complicated systems have some sort of complication to their answer.
Got to love the idea that Greenhouse gasses don't have any effect on warming, I have some land on venus if you want to buy it! | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/8/2008 12:15:56 AM |
First it was an ice age
If somebody does the least bit of reading on this subject outside of the conservative blogosphere they see this.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/What-1970s-science-said-about-global-cooling.html
What 1970's science said about global cooling A persistent argument designed to discredit the field of climate science is that scientists predicted an ice age in the 1970's. So popular in fact that it ranks an impressive #7 in the most cited skeptic arguments. The logic goes that climate scientists got it completely wrong predicting global cooling in the 1970's (it started warming instead). Hence climate science can't be trusted about current global warming predictions. Setting aside the logical flaws of such an ad hominem argument, was there any consensus among 70's climate scientists predicting global cooling?
The evidence for global cooling consensus Most cited is a 1975 Newsweek article The Cooling World that suggested cooling "may portend a drastic decline for food production":
"Meteorologists disagree about the cause and extent of the cooling trend… But they are almost unanimous in the view that the trend will reduce agricultural productivity for the rest of the century."
A 1974 Times Magazine article Another Ice Age? painted a similarly bleak picture:
"When meteorologists take an average of temperatures around the globe, they find that the atmosphere has been growing gradually cooler for the past three decades. The trend shows no indication of reversing. Climatological Cassandras are becoming increasingly apprehensive, for the weather aberrations they are studying may be the harbinger of another ice age." However, these are media articles, not peer reviewed scientific papers. Does a consensus on global cooling emerge from the scientific literature?
Skeptical quote mining of 1970's scientific literature Most mentioned is Rasool 1971 which projected that if aerosol levels increased 6 to 8 fold, it may trigger an ice age. While Rasool underestimated climate sensitivity to CO2, its basic assertion that the climate would cool with a dramatic increase of aerosols was correct. However, aerosol levels dropped rather than increased. More on Rasool...
A 2003 Washington Post op-ed by James Schlesinger, Climate Change: The Science Isn't Settled, quoted a 1972 National Science Board report as follows:
"Judging from the record of the past interglacial ages, the present time of high temperatures should be drawing to an end . . . leading into the next glacial age." The full quote from the report is as follows:
"Judging from the record of the past interglacial ages, the present time of high temperatures should be drawing to an end, to be followed by a long period of considerably colder temperatures leading to the next glacial age some 20,000 years from now. However, it is possible, or even likely, that human interference has already altered the environment so much that the climatic pattern of the near future will follow a different path.
For instance, widespread deforestation in recent centuries, especially in Europe and North America, together with increased atmospheric opacity due to man-made dust storms and industrial wastes, should have increased the Earth’s reflectivity. At the same time increasing concentration of industrial carbon dioxide in the atmosphere should lead to a temperature increase by absorption of infrared radiation from the Earth’s surface.
When these human factors are added to such other natural factors as volcanic eruptions, changes in solar activity, and resonances within the hydro-atmosphere, their effect can only be estimated in terms of direction, not of amount"
Schlesinger's op-ed has been quoted widely including James Inhofe's Senate testimony. Skeptic citing of the scientific literature have taken conclusions out of context, overlooking qualifications and stated uncertainties. What does a broader look at the scientific literature reveal?
A new paper exposing the myth of 70's global cooling Over time, William Connelly has been steadily documenting 70's research predicting global cooling. It's a rich resource but as he admits, could be more accessible. Now he has collaborated with Thomas Peterson and John Fleck to publish The Myth of the 1970's Global Cooling Scientific Consensus, due to be published in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society.
The paper surveys climate studies from 1965 to 1979 (and in a refreshing change to other similar surveys, lists all the papers). They find very few papers (7 in total) predict global cooling. This isn't surprising. What surprises is that even in the 1970's, on the back of 3 decades of cooling, more papers (42 in total) predict global warming due to CO2 than cooling.
Figure 1: Number of papers classified as predicting future global cooling (blue) or warming (red). In no year were there more global cooling papers than global warming papers.
So in fact, the large majority of climate research in the 1970s predicted the Earth would warm as a consequence of CO2. Rather than climate science predicting cooling, the opposite is the case. Most interesting about Peterson's paper is not the debunking of an already well debunked skeptic argument but a succinct history of climate science over the 20th century, describing how scientists from different fields gradually pieced together their diverse findings into a more unified picture of how climate operates. A must read paper.
Posted by John Cook at 11:44 AM
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/8/2008 4:37:51 AM | Charlesedm-
kept up it...You say what I think, but dont have the energy/fight to answer back anymore.
I get exausted just reading these types of cut-n-paste posting, in which every "genius" with a blog or who can write an article in some obscure periodical are quoted as "experts".
................................................................................................................................... UPDATE POST Sorry Moderator- I will stay on subject
To OP-msg1
No, Im not easily Shocked when reading Conservative Journals.
No, I dont easily change my mind on Scientific subjects after reading Conservative Journals.
Have a nice day!
To bad, logic and original thinking, seem to be a thing of the past. | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/8/2008 6:27:48 AM |
What 1970's science said about global cooling A persistent argument designed to discredit the field of climate science is that scientists predicted an ice age in the 1970's. So popular in fact that it ranks an impressive #7 in the most cited skeptic arguments. The logic goes that climate scientists got it completely wrong predicting global cooling in the 1970's (it started warming instead). Hence climate science can't be trusted about current global warming predictions.
But this is what happened....thats why it ranks #7. Thats pretty impressive, no?
You know, I love it when someone tries to tell me what I read, saw, experienced, & was duped by in the 1970s, when they werent even born yet.
The cooling scare of the 70s was just that - a scare that was perpetuated by the media. A few prominent voices of the era started the idea & backed it up with a few books, appearances, & articles in a few major periodicals. The seed was planted, & it sprouted a huge weed.
If youre under 35 try to wrap your head around this: All we had back then was 3 major TV networks, newspapers, a handful of major periodicals, & books by authors.
There was no internet, computers, 174 cable news channels, etc. for THE AVERAGE JOE.
The population was barely 4 billion back then. 3.99 billion of them would never had read any peer reviewed litreature on the matter even if it existed. It was all fueled by the media & parroted . A large percentage of them believed in it. Nobody seemed to try to squelch it. At best prominent scientific groups couldnt verify, nor discredit any of these claims. If there were, they were NOT given the same hype.
We were duped. As with anything, & because of it, we are wary. That is human nature.
Fast forward to the 21st century.
1. Its happening all over again, but 180 degrees out of phase.
2. Half the population is over 45, so there is some inkling of this experience.
3. Once again, this is all mainly driven by the media & parroted.
4. UNLIKE the 1970s, today there is a vocal dissent, due to the explosion of media to the AVERAGE JOE. That really didnt happen in the 1970s, so that naturally fuels any speculation further.
The population now is 6 billion . 5.99 billion of them never read any peer reviewed litreature on the matter even though it exists, yet a large percentage of them accept this & parrot it. It is all fueled by the media once again.
It is all VERY MUCH like the 70s, to many of us. | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/8/2008 7:24:07 AM | Peer review is a hell of a lot older than 1970. Which is why we can say.
But this is what happened....thats why it ranks #7. Thats pretty impressive, no?
Didn't actually happen, because guess what? We can look at those peer reviewed journals, and see that they didn't say what the global warming denialists are trying to say now.
So it should be easy for you to prove it to us, find peer reviewed journals that predict a high likelyness of global cooling. | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/8/2008 9:06:21 AM |
It is all VERY MUCH like the 70s, to many of us.
... and not at all like the 70's to many of the rest of us.
I grew up in the 60's and 70's. The issues of the day were the ever-escalating cold war and the threat of nuclear war. Civil rights. The women's movement. The Viet Nam conflict and for those of my generation the fear of being drafted into a senseless waste of human life. It seemed that key leaders were getting assassinated left and right.
On the environmental front, those of us concerned were focused on the implications of Rachel Carson's "Silent Spring", Love Canal, the Cuyahoga River catching fire, Lake Erie being declared ecologically 'dead'.
We cheered on the passing of the Clean Water Act, the Surface Mine Control and Reclamation Act, and the Clean Air Act. I remember hoping the newly formed EPA would assure I would no longer see rivers completely covered in foam downstream of factories, or be able to smell the paper mill emissions in the town my grandparents lived in ten miles before we got there.
Global cooling? I vaguely remember a passing reference to it as a possibility. It didn't catch anywhere near the headlines the above issues did, and certainly wasn't more than a distant blip on my radar screen even though I was very engaged in environmental and human rights issues.
I first tuned in to global warming in the early nineties when I was participating in the relicensing of a local hydro-electric dam that included in its operational priorities providing sufficient releases to keep the river downstream cool enough to support trout. Through my research I learned that eight of the ten hottest years on record had occurred in the past 15 years, and incorporated that information in my comments on how best to balance operational guidelines between the competing resource needs of power generation, upstream lake levels, downstream whitewater recreation, and a healthy trout fishery.
I've followed climate change science closely ever since. Up until a few years ago I kept noting with frustration that the media either ignored the problem or when it did reference the building mountain of evidence supporting anthropogenic climate change it always gave equal time to one of a handful of vocal skeptics, even though they couldn't pass muster through the peer-review process.
That all changed a few years ago, when the media finally caught on and news reports changed their tenor. Skeptics were accurately portrayed as a minority point of view, even if still given more free publicity than their fringe perspectives warranted. It seemed like in the course of a few short months all of a sudden the media had collectively decided to shift their emphasis to one more consistent with what climate researchers had been saying for quite some time.
Why the change? The only explanation I can come up with is that just before the shift in media focus Hurricane Katrina happened, and global warming was pointed to by some as a possible contributor to it's intensity or very existence.
Never mind that hurricane behavior is one of the least well understood implications of climate change. I have no problem asserting that there is strong consensus that human activities impact a warming climate among legitimate climate researchers. But whether that means more frequent or more intense hurricanes is very much still in question, and even those who do predict a warming climate will result in more or more intense hurricanes don't predict we'll see those for a good while yet.
So near as I can tell the media came around to a more accurate perspective for the wrong reasons, but at least they came around.
I remember thinking at the time that this put those of us engaged in environmental issues in new and unfamiliar territory. We were used to being the underdogs, fighting to get sufficient attention devoted to important environmental issues too long ignored. Now, for once, we actually were getting something resembling appropriate media coverage on a pressing environmental issue with serious implications for quality of life over the next century and beyond.
I expected a strong backlash from those who feel having to re-think their disney vacation due to rising fuel costs is more important than being good stewards to the only planet we have to call home. Sure enough that small group of vocal climate skeptics with at least a smidgeon of scientific credentials has been championed and joined by those with either a direct financial stake in an industry likely to be negatively impacted by climate change policy or those recognizing how easy it is to get press time if they buck the current trend.
The public, as always, loves a good controversy. Few take the time to research not only the various points of view, but more importantly which arguments stand up to the scientific method that has served us so well through the incredible technological advances of the last century and a half or so.
Logic supported by credible research is rarely the foundation for how we vote, shop, and what we choose to post on forums like these.
So if someone tries to assert that global cooling was once widely considered to be as imminent of a threat as global warming is today, it's too easy to accept that statement at face value and use it as an excuse to not embrace the conclusions of the mainstream scientific community.
Skepticism is good. We should never take anything we hear at face value. I remember being skeptical when nuclear energy advocates claimed nuclear power would mean essentially free electricity for everyone, or when auto manufacturers claimed that increasing safety standards in cars would mean few could afford a car.
But unlike when those assertions were made, today's internet society means all of us have the ability to research the facts and credentials behind those espousing one point of view or another. We don't have to depend on the word of someone else to inform our opinions. We can quickly dig down to the actual science supporting or refuting whichever point of view we lean towards. And we can google the scientists producing the science we find most credible and see how they fare in the peer review process.
The main differences between today and the seventies is that today the media is just now catching up to the science, which leaves an impression that this issue just recently became pressing, and that the 'average joe' or 'jane' can today quickly and easily research for themselves which is hype and which is supported by legitimate science.
The media isn't driving the urgency of addressing climate change - it's reflecting it. Anyone with access to the internet can quickly and easily figure that out for themselves.
Dave | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/8/2008 9:42:35 AM | I grew up in the 60's and 70's. The issues of the day were the ever-escalating cold war and the threat of nuclear war. Civil rights. The women's movement. The Viet Nam conflict and for those of my generation the fear of being drafted into a senseless waste of human life. It seemed that key leaders were getting assassinated left and right.
Global cooling? I vaguely remember a passing reference to it as a possibility. It didn't catch anywhere near the headlines the above issues did, and certainly wasn't more than a distant blip on my radar screen even though I was very engaged in environmental and human rights issues.
Thats why...many of the issues you quote here were NOT on MY front burner. I wasnt mesmerized by civil rights, nor the womens movement, nor the environment. Perhaps its regional, or whatever. Dont try to minimalize or diminish those of us who were duped by it just because you werent.
I was , as you stated, mesmerized by the nuclear arms race, & the "doomsday clock", ticking its way to midnight. "Nuclear Winter" went hand-in-hand with the global cooling scare. They were interwined, remember? One fed the other.
Science teachers at our schools involved this in studies for us as current events science discussions. I remember the teacher subscribinng to a now unknown weekly paper designed for the science classroom that contained breaking news & possible future inventions/discoveries on the horizon.
Global Cooling & nuclear winter were a fairly regular topics for this publication. So was manned Mars missions, microchips that would be smaller than a dime, foam fire retardant that you could spray, an artificial heart, runaway population, & oil that would run out by the end of that century,to name a few that I still remember. All topics for discussion. Most have come true. They believed it to a point that they included it as curriculum. I was there.
I almost did a final paper on Global Cooling in 1975. As stated, there were not much references to it, basically none at all, in the libraries at the time. I couldnt make a paper of it despite the somewhat popular esteem it held as a doomsday scenario topic. I still have some publications from that era stuffed away somewwhere, but it wasnt enough at the time to warrant a good referenced paper. It was fairly new topic & the lag time of harvesting new information in these smaller libraries was something bloggers today could not fathom. Limited media & no internet...can you just imagine????
I did my paper on the statistical comparison of nuclear arsenals between the USSR/Warsaw pact vs. The US/NATO. As you correctly stated, & I agree, that was an ever-popular doomsday subject that was well entrenched & established. There were reams of printed matter to reference.
Many of us were still duped by global cooling. For me, I understand why its ranked #7 . Theres a reason for it. How fortunate that you werent, & dismiss us all out of hand. | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/8/2008 10:01:48 AM | Many of us were still duped by global cooling. How fortunate that you werent, & dismiss us all out of hand.
I did not intend to dismiss you out of hand. Apologies if that was how my post was interpreted.
You seemed to dismiss out of hand anyone under 35 being able to accurately research the legitimacy of the claims of widespread fears of global cooling during the seventies. You acted as a spokesperson for our generation by expressing that 'many of us' were duped by the global cooling scare.
As one who shares your generation, I offered a counter perspective, representing the 'many of us' who did not pay anywhere near as much attention to global cooling then as we do to global warming now.
I remember being chased from my favorite fishing hole when several inches of polluted foam covered the entire river in less than an hour. I remember a field trip to Cleveland and standing on the banks of a Cuyahoga River so clogged with debris and oily slime that I wasn't at all surprised when it caught fire less than a year later.
I wasn't fortunate enough to take science classes that included much forward thinking, although like you I do remember predictions of oil shortages and micro-chips. And I do remember the 'nuclear winter' component of the entire nuclear war doomsday issue. I just don't remember it being intertwined with the rest of the global cooling issue.
But even you confess that you were unable to find supporting documentation in the local small town library for global cooling. I dare say if you went to the same library or its equivalent today, even if you didn't touch a computer, you'd find ample fodder for a paper on global warming.
Regardless of whether either of us is suffering from selective memory problems or simply different interests at the time, an objective look at the peer reviewed science clearly shows that there is exponentially more support for global warming concern now than there was for global cooling then, and that's really the point, isn't it?
Dave | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/8/2008 10:23:18 AM | You seemed to dismiss out of hand anyone under 35 being able to accurately research the legitimacy of the claims of widespread fears of global cooling during the seventies. You acted as a spokesperson for our generation by expressing that 'many of us' were duped by the global cooling scare.
No, Im not dismissing them, Im only trying to shed light on the vast difference between then & now. They in essence are dismissing those like me, because some blogs dismiss the whole scare as a minor blip. It wasnt a minor blip to Isaac Asimov, for example.
Yes, they can google it all now. We couldnt, & were hostage to the limited media at the time. If you were exposed to certain segments of this limited media more than others, it had more of an effect on you. Perhaps my science teachers were agendists of the cooling scare, & gave it more attention than it perhaps deserved. Thats almost why I wanted to write a final paper on the subject. I only want them to try to step back in time & understand the tremendous advantage they have now, that we didnt.
Thats why I think the differences were regional, or whatever. There was no giant common denominator like the internet. Some things developed regionally differently than other areas. As example, some counties taught Shakespere in senior English; others here taught D i c k e n s.
30 years later a couple 50-somethings are arguing. One says that he had Shakespere ram-rodded down his throat in high school. The other disputes it. D i c k e n s was the ram-rodded subject. He has no recollection of this Shakespere character.
Sorry its all a bit off topic, but I smell revisionist history bubbling up a wee bit. | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/8/2008 10:42:10 AM | Fly Guy no one is stating that conservation is not a good thing and I for one believe that conservation is a great thing for both the environment and for humanity. However at the same time take the G8 summit for example where they are going to commit billions of dollars (tax money from you and me) towards doing absolutely nothing. In fact had the US signed on to the kyoto accord that would have meant billions of dollars to in effect change the temp. by approx. 1-2 degrees in but not overnight nope it was more like 100 years to get that effect so what your saying is that by jumping onto this lets throw all the money we can at it bandwagon is a good thing? Thank God the US looked at the figueres and said hell no!
Climate change is real but it is not affected by the Co2 that we produce. In fact our oceans produce more Co2 than all industrialized nations could dream of together. One volcano alone produces more Co2 and Sulphur than the US in 10 years! And that is just ONE eruption. I am not saying that getting rid of these things are bad but in reality those that are saying WE are the CAUSE of climate change is wrong.
I believe we should conserve and do all we can to eliminate plastics and trash and to clean the environment but at the same time throwing billlions of dollars (tax money) into pet projects that dont reduce anything is wrong. | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/8/2008 11:04:07 AM | Ibscrooge, I understand what you are saying, but you didn't address the apparent contradiction stated in my post. As for your second paragraph, nothing stated there is factual.
Re: oceans and the CO2 balance: http://www.skepticalscience.com/human-co2-smaller-than-natural-emissions.htm | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/8/2008 11:38:18 AM |
Sorry its all a bit off topic, but I smell revisionist history bubbling up a wee bit.
...so how about if we agree that I won't revise your personal history if you won't revise mine?
We agree that we all have far more access to a wider range of information today than we had then.
Thirty years from now we can smack each other with our virtual canes as our holograms argue about impressions from this decade....
Dave | |
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| Lawrence Solomon: challenges the CO2/climate change theory Posted: 7/8/2008 6:28:03 PM | When will the lie stop being forced down our collective throats?
It will never stop, it will just get a new name, and more grants to people pushing the same lie.
Where can I get my grant? I need a new car. ____________________________________________________________
Me too!!!!! I need a new car too! Those lucky *&@#$%*&!!! All that FREE government money...Hey...wait!!!! Thats taxpayer money...Isnt that OUR MONEY?? What a waste!! Too many wacko groups sucking off the tit of the government hog. Disgusting and pathetic!!! There are better ways to spend taxpayer money...  | |
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