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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 11:25:16 AM |
If a man adhere to traditional dating tenets as defined above, does he also generally speaking believe in traditional gender roles (as defined above). Of course, there is a multitude of answers as there is a multitude of people, but what have you folks experienced in the real world? What are your experiences?
my experience with a man currently in my life:
- he suggested we meet (ie "asked me first").....however.....
- we share the expenses for the time we spend together
- he appreciates and respects that i support myself and enjoys my intelligence and values that i have an education
- he is respectful toward me in a way that i would categorize as being a gentleman and treating me like a lady
so, to answer what i believe the OP question is, i think a man can be a gentleman AND still appreciate a woman's desire to be educated, have a career, and not necessarily stay home barefoot and pregnant
another example.......my ex, as it happens
- opened doors for me, and women in general
- paid for all our dates when we first dated; as it bacame long term we shared expenses
- accepted and encouraged me to pursue further education (my masters), though it meant he would need to take on additional household duties
- when i was done with my MS and was able to get a better job, he lost his job, took care of things around the house for awhile, and at some point i actually LIKED that he was home taking care of stuff while I was working 50 hours a week and we kept it that way until the marriage ended (for reasons unrelated to any of the above)
i see OPs point, and why one might think there would be a correlation between dating
practices and gender roles in general........but i don't necessarily think it goes hand in hand....................personally, not my experience, and i don't believe being generous, considerate, and basically acting like a caring human being means you're a neaderthal if you happen to be male, or that you're June Cleaver if you're a female | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 11:30:01 AM | Sometimes as a guy, you don't know what's expected of you.
I think women are torn with wanting to be catered to by a man, without being DEPENDENT ON a man.
The big problem for US is that the balance changes depending on the woman we are with. My ex actually referred to herself as a "feminazi" - she doesn't NEED a man for ANYTHING (and I do mean anything), financially or emotionally. And she was always going out of her way to drill that further and further into my head.
However, a friend of mine has been with someone for 10 years, he works, she doesn't, she stays home, and is totally content with it.
I'm not saying what's right or wrong, but I am saying that there's no strict guide to go by. You just have to keep searching until you find someone with the same relationship beliefs you have. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 11:34:21 AM | I'm interested in knowing about statistics for online dating? LOL. Those numbers I bet are way off the scale. I don't think the same percentages would fare on here!
I was married for quite a long time between 1985 and 1999, divorced since the end of 99 now. Things have changed majorly in the "dating world" during that course of time.
Basically traditional versus emergent depends upon the person your dating. Everyone is different. Some men like to take charge of everything, some are laid back and let the woman take charge.
You just get to know the person you're dating and how things work with them dating-wise. If it's not your style then it usually doesn't work out and you move forward. If there aren't any sparks there to begin with, then you know you won't date that person.
Personally I like both ways of dating (traditional & emergent). I can compromise and am easy to get along with.
It's not the style, it's the person you would like to spend time with that matters, the person both inside and out.
Jennifer | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 11:34:46 AM | I think it's not something that can be answered easily.
I think there are too many outstanding factors that determine the roles.
I have lived in the south and the west... so geography has a lot to do with it. I think age plays a huge part in expectations. And environment... i think if someone is raised by a single mom or in a two parent home will definitely influence their dating role preferences.
I guess, I'm modified "traditional". I definitely expect a man to make the first contact, I expect him to plan and pay for the first date (but not all of them.) I do expect a man to hold doors open and buying flowers on occassion isn't a bad thing either.
I have no plans on having anymore kids, so I don't want to stay home and do nothing. I want to work, travel and play. I'm not cooking and cleaning for a man just because I'm a woman. I think that chores are divided fairly... (yes, I think men should do the heavy lifting, you're simply built for it.)
I can see that in rural areas or even in areas where jobs are not as plentiful for women, how a woman is "conditioned" to take on that traditional role. I think in urban areas where a woman can make her own living, you'll find more independent minding women. I think both are good and depending on the man, you might prefer one over the other. Both have their down sides... Because I can support myself and I don't need a man, I won't be the submissive type to any man.
Personally, and speaking from a bit of experience dating online... I think men want to get out of the traditional role because they don't make a lot of money to lavish on dates and are tired of chasing women physically and financially. In a lot of ways, I can see how a man might "prefer" to date a non-traditional woman, but in the long run, I think most men WANT to marry the woman who'll take care of them... just like mom did.
Who knows... don't listen to me! LOL
"If you want to catch a catch, then BE a catch!" - bluewithoutu | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 11:35:10 AM |
Eeek...I will scream if this thread turns into yet another who pays, thread!!
I do not consider myself to be traditional in my dating beliefs. I will do the asking, the paying, the sharing, the initiating,...Sam I Am! ;)
I like to think of it more as an equal endeavor...with the only time roles are actually gender based when it pertains to the person, more so than the gender. In other words...if HE works well on cars, and I love being in the kitchen...maybe those roles are taken on....but not because of our sex, more so preference.
I am also the sort who would put absolutely no weight on him making more or less of a salary...as long as he HAS a salary! ;)
Even the small gestures...like opening a door...it's a nice gesture, and one that I would certainly reciprocate by doing the same on occassion.
Well written! I have personally notice the same transition to preferred roles and responsibilityes based on abilities. But as a Gen X man, I also have to say that sometimes expectations are confusing. Although "unstoppables" post was over the top, he clearly expressed this confusion. I believe there is a grey area between traditional and emergent value sets which is the key to great relationships. Its when people see it as black and white you run into trouble. But it is confusing non the less and not only for men, but for women as well. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 11:46:23 AM | Who knows... don't listen to me! LOL
Actually, do listen to you as you might be closer to reality than you think. Although foreign to me, I am getting the feeling that most men do want a women that is devoted and takes care of them. Nothing wrong with that. But if that is your expectation as a man, then you should also adhere to chivalry tenets (just my oppinion).
On the opposite side of the coin, if a woman expects chivalry, would it not be reasonable for you to also expect a more traditional relationship setting as well?
What I have taken note of is men who believes in chivarly, generally have more traditional relationship views as well. While men with emergent relationship values tend to be confused about the merits and place for chivalry. I know somewhere there is a happy medium, but the transition to that place is confusing. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 11:48:26 AM | Actually to sum up an answer to this in a brief form is to say be yourself no matter what dating style you prefer.
The person you go out with has their way of doing things in all matters of life. If you can't compromise on something minor like this, then there is no where to go.
In other words be flexible. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 12:17:48 PM | "I don't think men have a choice in the matter. "
Of course you do, and many men choose not to do anything. See the many posts ont he subject.
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"Most western women will push for "tradition" when it serves them best and will push for "modern feminism" when it serves them best. "
Not quite sure what you mean by "push for", but I agree--ALL humans take the path of least resistance. Only a fool would think that any other human will constantly do what advances them the least. There IS no altruism...
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"Most women will find it degrading to approach men and ask them out. "
Degrading? Not really, it's just that we don't NEED to since men are more aggressive that way.
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"Never mind modern feminism says a woman can do anything a man can do."
Key word there, bud: CAN, not "must do", but "has the right to do" what a man does. And is there "ancient feminism" or something?
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" You won't find many that will buy their man an engagement ring. "
True--nor will many women be buying their men bras, or bracelets, or earrings. So do you consider it "modern feminism" when a man buys his wife power tools for her birthday, too? I think I have an inkling why you are single...
I actually have a t-shirt that reads: "They used to burn women like me." | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 12:46:14 PM | a) The man asking the woman out.
b) The man plans and pays for the date.
c) The man adhere to chivalry tenets and believes (open doors, send roses etc).
d) The man is primarily responsible for the initial courting rituals etc
Yes. This is what I like. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 1:11:39 PM | I'm quite self sufficient on my own. I've been doing it for a long long time. But I think that chivalry rocks! If a man makes you feel safe with him when you're out with him and he is kind and caring, that's cool.
I grew up in a household where my dad worked (1960's and 70's), and my mom went off to work when we were old enough as kids. My mom cooked and cleaned and all and had the best of both worlds of working inside the house and outside the home.
I've been working since age 13 (earlier if you count babysitting) and worked all throughout my life and married life when I was. I held up my end, always. I was supportive, and also a good wife. Yes it's alot of work when you're with someone either living together or married. To cook, clean, and work. But it takes some teamwork to pull it altogether.  | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 1:23:04 PM | If you expect traditional gender roles on a date, that should not be exclusive.
Yes, you get to be wined and dined in the beginning.
But please don't start crying "women's lib" when you're the one who has to leave your career for a baby, the one who has a meal on the stove every night, the one who has to vacuum and cook and clean.
I am a traditional woman. I expect to be treated like a traditional lady on a date, and am insulted by the thought of going dutch.
However, that does not end there for me. For most women, it probably does. Weed them out and do yourself a favor; there is nothing more disgusting than a woman who picks and chooses faux-feminist battles. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 1:23:30 PM | No I don't think so. Economics trumps it all. Most people in this country need two incomes to build a future. That means both working and all the sensibilites that go into earning a living.
Certainly there are gender differences in other areas. I like the polite rituals of opening a door, being asked out but paying half for weeks away are also a part of the new dance. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 1:35:17 PM | I'm a traditional guy when it comes to dating, but that's just the kind of guy I am. I open doors for any woman. And I always treat when I'm out with females friends as well. It's just something I do naturally. We walk up for a coffee and I just take out money for two. When I'm in a relationship, it's only natural for me to pay for the date, open the door for her, pull out her chair etc. I've always just had that in me and I think it's a good quality.
That said, it has nothing to do with creating roles in the relationship. Being respectful and treating your girlfriend well does not mean it's going to automatically create roles for yourselves. I've never been the kind of guy that feels it's "my role" to work while it's my girlfriends "role" to stay home and cook and clean. Women, especially of today, want to follow their dreams and have a career just as much as guys do. I look around at some relationships and my jaw drops when I see there are actually guys still out there that EXPECT their girlfriend or wife to stay at home, not follow their dreams and do all the cooking, cleaning etc. A friend of mine who worked TWO JOBS just got out a relationship with a guy who actually had the nerve to expect her to not only have the house clean, a meal cooked but for her to be dressed up and ready for sex when he came home. And he only worked one job.
So like I said, being respectful and traditional does not go hand in hand with creating roles in a relationship. Creating roles in a relationship are the delusional ideas of some dudes who want a girlfriend who worships them and is always ready for sex in a nice shiny clean house with a meal on the table. That's not reality anymore... | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 2:06:22 PM |
Of course, there is a multitude of answers as there is a multitude of people, but what have you folks experienced in the real world? What are your experiences?
That your 80% figure (in the OPost) is way too low.
I'd put it closer to 99.99% of women. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 2:11:42 PM | confusion """especially amongst men, of what is being expected of them."""
What is being expected of us guys is baseline fairly obvious...its the execution thats the hard part:
I expect myself and my competition/cohorts to be:
hardworking, intelligent, healthy, humorous, balanced, spiritual, be wise, basic grooming and even better grooming when around a lady, be genuinely interested in her, have ENOUGH MONEY TO PAY FOR A DATE, reliable transportation, etc.
But if you are an angry, lazy, unemployed, uneducated, smelly, drinking sexist, selfish, doof, with no style and no game, it won't matter what the dating etiquette is or what country you are from. Maybe you can find a woman like that, but good luck on the two really having a wonderful relationship. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 2:20:00 PM | That's not reality anymore...
FunnyMikey. I agree with you that it is not reality any more. But I do believe that some men will expect some level of traditional roles if chivalry is to be extended. On the same token, I know quite a few men (including myself) who struggle with the symbolism of chivalry in an equal world. To me and many others, chivalry is a construct of the traditional era and values. To me, a traditional relationship represents a partnership, but a partnership with clear roles. The emergent values are also that of a partnership, but a partnership with blurred of undefined roles. Since the roles in the emergent value set are no longer defined the chivalry n0tion seems misplaced, in particular if you view if for the era and value set it represents. And that is the confusion in a nutshell. How can emergent values co-exist with traditional values? Can we cherry pick which virtues we live by and expect relationship success? I don't know the answer to that question. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 2:24:59 PM | | While "unstoppable" is a bit over the top, what he is talking about is not entirely out of the ballpark. At least with some women. I do think some people will pick & choose what traditional values that benefit them, while discarding the rest. These traditional values go against a lot of the equal rights we have today. So its no wonder some people are confused. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 2:27:53 PM | OP,
You've brought up the confusion of the Gen X male as to what is expected of them. I can relate to that w/the men I've known, dated, been friends with, etc.
I typically stay away from GenX'ers (even though I'm one as well) for this very reason. The younger crowd tends to be more where I'm at in mindset with dating - neither depending on the other for the whole of their happiness and both coming together to be more, whoever can... does. The older, more traditional crowd can rarely tolerate me for long because I'm naturally quite untraditional in mindset - plus I think there is a part of me that is and will always be a bit immature. Gen X'ers are so self focused and self absorbed and it's the "me, me, me" mindset that I get frustrated with. Although the younger GenX'ers and I get along fairly well. I won't rule anyone out because of age or generation but I will if their personalities, mindset and desires don't mesh well with my own.
I would think that how one approaches dating, whether it be emergent, traditional, or somewhere in between is also likely how they will move forward into a relationship.
I'm an in betweener and quite honestly I don't find many who are and can relate to it. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 2:40:54 PM |
I would think that how one approaches dating, whether it be emergent, traditional, or somewhere in between is also likely how they will move forward into a relationship.
This is the point of this thread exactly and I believe there is tremendous amounts of truth behind this statement. Then whether people can identify and critically self examine their own behavior/expectations is a different story.
When you hear men complain about unrealistic expectations and women about the lack of good men, are we really seeing a clash of dating cultures and values? I believe so. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 2:42:42 PM | I've read this thread and have asked myself several times WTF? If I find somone I want to go out with, I'll ask them. I'm the one doing the asking, therefore I've accepted the financial responsibility for that evernt. If money is that much of an issue, you probably shouldn't be dating anyhow as you obviously have more pressing financial needs.
What if she wants to pay? I'm ok with that too. If it means that much to her, then who am I to deny her that tidbit of power?
As for the dating ettiqutte....I think of them as good manners, and yes , they should be used to gauge future behavior. You only get one chance at a first impression, and if you are so caught up in the statistical value of your "dating data", then she's probably gonna think your pretty uptight and you're gonna be on POF for quite some time. However, if you don't sweat the small stuff and don't get caught up in "Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs" and just go have dinner with someone you find attractive, you'll probably live a much fuller life.....
Just sayin' is all..... | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 2:46:10 PM | I absolutely refuse to address the money aspect of it cause the money aspect of it didn't rule my heart. What did was finding someone that treats me in a manner that's congruent with his feelings.
I've made it on my own more years than I haven't and I had nothing to prove to anyone but myself. Did it, done. Check. I needed someone that could do the same. Don't we all?
I'm VERY traditional and wanted someone like me. I don't care one way or the other about chivalry, it's cool but that's about it. I open doors for peeps when I get to them first, and appreciate it when someone else does the same. They don't have to and I won't care. That said, I've yet to open a door all by myself since I met my husband. To this day. But that's just him. He couldn't be any other way than the traditional man that he is. He is the breadwinner and I merely contribute, but I'm also the backbone. I support him, he supports me. We don't do the "this is female/male" work crap, we just do what each does best cause we want to. We don't even stop to think about it and we never even discussed it, we just both jump in.
As for making the first moves, asking out, etc...not a chance I was gonna. It creeps me out. But, once I knew the interest and desire was there, I took him down and tossed every one of his gentlemanly ways right out the window with his whitey tighty's! . | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 2:48:56 PM | | Okay. I have been reading this and have a question. Can someone please tell me what "getting to know each other" is. When "dating" is considered to be happening?. When does it become a "relationship"? The situation: two people are not seeing anyone else for 6 months, but due to separate family issues going on, who want to spend more time together but can't due to work/school/family/medical issues. What would you call this? . | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 2:50:21 PM | WTF...Cmon (HappyGilmoresGoneNuts)...Only 40 percent...Geez, I figured 20 percent (male) and 40 percent female...
God Dangit, "Why so much controversy"?...Can we (men) get past all this mumbo jumbo without you starting ANOTHER DANG "WAR OF THE ROSES"...Jus joking...Im not answering nuttin...Ill read the responses to this thread and laugh my arse off...
Gilmore, "Youve gone too far again"..Sly ole dog.. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 3:11:09 PM | """Since the roles in the emergent value set are no longer defined """"
Well why don't you tell us since the language you use sounds like you are an expert:
Was this the topic of your PhD? Cause that's what it sounds like. Let me restate that"
How can we be having a discussion about the definitions of roles and which or who's "emergent value set" should we use? I vote for using my definitions and my emergent value set! Unless of course, you have a generally used definition of "roles" and would it apply to foreign brides like Canadians, or Russian men? How's about Latinos and their emergent value set or let's say Iraqui women between 39 and 48, what's their role? That's the problem with this topic. Maybe we could do it using peoples religions, one religion at a time. Let's start with Catholics, even though I am not one.
Ok, get busy letin us know what those emergent values are so we can make real quick answers here. I don't want to write a PhD thesis on it, which might be necessary, unless we are just doing this for laffs!
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