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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 3:12:24 PM | Nope. I don't think traditional dating translates into traditional role expectations at all. Traditional dating tells me I am admired and am coming across as feminine. I am a career woman though! Can't one be both?
(but I LOVE it when men do repairs.. sexy!) | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 3:14:06 PM |
However, if you don't sweat the small stuff and don't get caught up in "Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs" and just go have dinner with someone you find attractive, you'll probably live a much fuller life.....
I don't disagree with this. However, this little thread is a lot bigger than the initial date. This is about future expected behavior. Since you have traditional traits, what would you expect out of your woman in a relationship? How does a perfect LTR look in your oppinion and what would be your preference in terms of responsibilities? Answer those questions and you are addressing the topic of this thread. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 3:17:11 PM | Grizzelda - not singling you out, just responding to one of your last paragraphs; this is coming from my personal POF experience and from so many of the threads I've read:
Why do so any men come on these forums and complain that women dont ask them out?
^^ Mainly because (1) it becomes frustratingly repetitious to take the time and initiative, only to be shot down based on appearance from a photo, then read posts and profiles from women stating there are no good men around, how looks aren't that important, how they want to be accepted for who they are and not judged on physical appearance/assets, etc. (2) an increasingly number of women seem to want all the benefits of having a man be the 'traditional' gentleman (take charge, pay for dates, bring roses, have him call and set things up, etc., out of virtue of her being simply a woman), and yet seemingly offer nothing in return (calling him, showing her interest, being monogamous, etc).
Women cannot demand to be 'equal' if they still expect the convenience of traditional dating roles (such as men approaching, risking rejection, paying for dates, etc).
To be clear - men and women are equal; yet I've found too many women expect a lot more than they give.
If you are so easily dissuaded from approaching a women that you ae interested in, then chanves are you probably arent relationship material.
^^ In 'reality' (re: offline dating), I agree, albeit shyness, past experiences and uncertainty can be barriers. Still, most men, I would think, make the initial move online and offline.
Beyond that, try being a guy on POF - it's not easy. Baring the sexual rude idiots, a lot of guys take the time to truly write a honest and thought-out message. Read/deleted - no problem, plenty of fish - right? After a dozen, then two dozen, maybe 3+ dozen, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Again - these are my perceptions, and not applied to all guys/girls. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 3:22:22 PM |
But I do believe that some men will expect some level of traditional roles if chivalry is to be extended. On the same token, I know quite a few men (including myself) who struggle with the symbolism of chivalry in an equal world. To me and many others, chivalry is a construct of the traditional era and values. To me, a traditional relationship represents a partnership, but a partnership with clear roles. The emergent values are also that of a partnership, but a partnership with blurred of undefined roles. Since the roles in the emergent value set are no longer defined the chivalry n0tion seems misplaced, in particular if you view if for the era and value set it represents. And that is the confusion in a nutshell. How can emergent values co-exist with traditional values? Can we cherry pick which virtues we live by and expect relationship success? I don't know the answer to that question.
I think contrary to anyone who's panicking about this - this is the best time ever.
Of course both can exist...we're in a time now where gender no longer defines roles, and people can choose to find someone who compliments their mindset.
In this thread alone, there are men who refuse to be traditional, men who refuse not to be traditional, women who are traditional, and women who struggle to stay away from tradition. That alone proves that there's someone for everyone. Now within each relationship two people can define their own reality, and it can be light years from another couple's idea of reality. It'll all even out...I think those who try to make a gender one way and one way only are gonna have the hardest time with the way things are going. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 3:27:51 PM | Well why don't you tell us since the language you use sounds like you are an expert:
Was this the topic of your PhD? Cause that's what it sounds like. Let me restate that"
Relax Bill. I'm not here to compete with you for dates. I'm the least of your concerns in that regards.
Ok, get busy letin us know what those emergent values are so we can make real quick answers here.
Emergent values are based on the notion of gender equality. That means the woman's career is of equal importance. The caretaking of children and the household is by default a shared responsibility. If one party is chosen to stay at home, the decision is based on income, not gender. What makes a man is no longer defined by "manly" activities and roles and so on. Men are no longer expected to initiat courting as emergent women will do so without fear as they are considered equal in all aspects. On the same token, emergent values places "dutch" dating as the default behavior and so on.
You can wrap up emergent views as follows:
"A good woman does not stand behind her man or at his side. Instead the two parties to the relationship stand side by side". Note how I took out the word "woman" in the second sentence (that is an important distinction). | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 5:27:03 PM | I like Dj's post..especially the trying to fit all of one gender in the same box. It isn't going to happen.
Equality by my definition doesn't mean giving up traditional things..and as far as picking and choosing..don't we all do that? Someone else mentioned this...everyone takes what dynamics works for them and rejects those that don't. Trying to get all people on the same page, so to speak, is impossible and not a good thing in my mind...we'd all be like robots?
My experience with the men I date ( and I obviously choose to date those who are of a similar mind as me) that like so called "traditional" things..like chivalry, romance, don't mind being nice, or buying a drink or dinner or whatever, and don't measure it by what their return on investment is...don't expect traditional role models when in a relationship. I think like all things, some men want that, some don't. Even some men who are "non-traditional" in dating, still expect traditional once a couple. And vice versa. People are diverse. I like it that way. I just know these things before , so there is no clash.
Many men can respect me as a separate person ( which is all I want from equality), and still treat me like a woman. They see no conflict. Obviously, we see things the same..and there are enough of them in my dating pool, that this is never a problem. Equal meaning exactly the same is a pet peeve of mine. As long as I am not using something to take advantage or lead someone on..which I never do..I don't see the problem. We are both happy. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 7:10:12 PM | That means the woman's career is of equal importance....Men are no longer expected to initiat courting as emergent women will do so {{shall we edit this to say "half the time}} . On the same token, emergent values places "dutch" dating as the default behavior and so on.
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actually I do understand what point you are trying to make. But I think trying to "analyze" , who asks who out, or holding doors open, or who pays for the first date may be way more complicated, than the overall date and conversations itself.
and then if there is a difference of values, there might not even be second date..But if there is a LOT OF CHEMISTRY, watch out. Modern sexually liberated woman meets handsome classy conservative cowboy......Yee Haw! | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/7/2008 7:35:39 PM |
I DON'T think that traditional dating etiquette sets up a traditional gender role scenario.
Cindy O
I agree. I've been in a few SO relationships and they were all over the map. The times, they are achanging and couples are more free than ever to set their own scenarios regarding dating etiquette and gender roles within the relationship. One does not necessarily beget the other.
Personally, I prefer traditional dating etiquette but am quite open to various options regarding gender roles within the relationship - whatever works. For example, exBF was not born with a wrench between the ears, so a lot of the around the house fix-it problems were done by me. It worked for us. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/8/2008 4:57:41 PM | there's nothing emergent about this.
the codes are obvious:
1.old fashioned
2 gentleman
3. classy
4. lady.
5. self -respecting
if the people involved describe themselves as such or advertise that they are seeking such people- then they will be a fairly decent match.
The problem is that people who aren't into that 'secret society" keep dating or wanting to date people who are.
Then they write threads about it.
you pulled those numbers out of your butt yet that is fine. they must have been causing you some discomfort. 
the thread you mentioned , as almost all of the threads on this site- are not exactly what happens to many people on there. although it does appear that it happens to quite a few.
Many of the guys who post have been in a bad relationship with a woman who acted like a boorish ogre- a lout- who was so atypical in how she acted- relative to many other females generally- that she could have had a man's brain on her head. She acted stereotypically male towards her male partner. This is very confusing for the guy
Many of the women on here who post have been in a bad relationship with a man who acted just like the stereotypical boorish lout ogre.
Both adapted to what happened to them in a direction that best serves them.
These people butt heads on the forums all the time.
There will always be one or two ( of either gender ) who jump in to point out that they are the exceptions to the rule. YOu can't mention anything on here without someone jumping in to say that it doesn't apply to them... yes,, that is true...but..
The other problem is legion- people still believe that all women are wonderful creatures , suagr and spice, incapable of having a malicious thought . IN spite of all the evidence in the world to the contrary.
And some people still believe that all men are incapable of artistic thought or having any emotional depth to their feelings. Or that men could be capable of actually articulating these very same feelings to any degree. Or even having feelings that could possibly be hurt by something said or done to them.. In spite of all the evidence in the world to the contrary.
EVery time a guy does this, especially on the threads- the automatic assumption is that 'he' must be female. Obviously this occurs when there is no picture.
People follow strategies that best serve them. It seems clear to me that the 'old fashioned values ladies" have the best strategies in getting what they want.
The other people must not want the same thing as the old-fashioned values ladies.
BEcause if they do, and they are not doing things to maximize that, then something else is amiss.
It is fairly easy to tell who is who by the type of thread they start:
the OFVSRCL are always indignant at having someone expect something of them.
the OLFSRCM are always surprised that someone wasn't expecting something of them.
The others are always posting threads about how confusing the date was. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/8/2008 5:04:42 PM |
It is fairly easy to tell who is who by the type of thread they start:
And it is very easy to see who passes unjust and inaccurate judgment by the post they write, in particular when the thread topic flew straight over the writer's head. Just some food for thought. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/8/2008 8:11:26 PM | | After ending a long marriage I am certainly fairly new to the dating scene, but whats up with all the scientific mumbojumbo? Statistics and traditions are boring!! Whatever happened to meeting someone and asking them out for a GOOD time. One thing I have learned is if you have no expectations, you won't be dissapointed. The few dates that I have been on were just that, dates, and everyone resulted in an enjoyable experience, and have led to more dates, and I feel that is precisely why because we enjoyed being together, no matter who asked, who paid, and we weren't looking for someone to move in with. While I understand your question OP, and certainly see the bigger picture, it just seems to me if we get too caught up in etiguett and beliefs, we just might miss that opportunity to stop and smell the rose. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/8/2008 9:50:30 PM | You see it is just too darned cold most months up here in the Great White North for there to have been anything other than "first one who hits the door opens it!" LOL
I confess, ok, Whenever he opens a door for me I get a silly thrill. It isn't rational, it makes no sense.... I just do.
We face tremendous gender role transition; it only makes sense for roles and rules to be in flux. A bit of column A, some of column B and a dash of column C.
I believe in "begin as you mean to go" and the first six months are probably when both are more consistently showing their "best selves"... so I think that you could say this is about as good as it is going to get. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/8/2008 10:42:26 PM | Our society is confused by the effect of feminism movement. It grew first out of inequalities between sexes, and the goal was to bring the equality between genders. It was initiated by women, of course, why? because of the female suppression in many different areas of life, work place is one example.
But when it comes to intimate relationship, we are not equal, meaning not the same. The attractions is based on opposite polarities, s0 when one expects woman to behave like man, the polarities are neutralized, therefore the attraction ceases... I am a woman and I want to be treated as one in my relationship. Simultaneously, it is my human right to be treated equally in a work place, and earn the same $$$ similarly like man who is doing similar kind of work. Simple.
As far as female and male attraction, no way jose, I want to be treated as a woman, I am very traditional in this belief. Opening doors, roses, chocolates, these are all small gestures to make feel like a woman. Yes, paying for a meal on the first date, even though I am capable doing this on my own. It isn't actually about money, it is about being treated. Spoil me, yes I am a Princess. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/8/2008 10:52:32 PM |
I like to think of it more as an equal endeavor...with the only time roles are actually gender based when it pertains to the person, more so than the gender. In other words...if HE works well on cars, and I love being in the kitchen...maybe those roles are taken on....but not because of our sex, more so preference.
And doesn't this just seem like common sense? In my one brief, ill-advised stint on E-harmony, with my only potentially good match, this was the deal-breaker for me. For those who haven't made the mistake of using that site, they have "getting acquainted" questions that you choose to send matches to begin the process of weeding out or going to the next step, and one of my chosen ones was on how the other party felt about traditional gender roles. The choices were something like :
a) I believe strongly in traditonal roles and expect my partner and I to adhere to them.
b) I don't believe in traditional roles at all.
c) I would like for my partner and I to define our own roles.
d) Other (write your own answer.)
He picked a. Bzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong answer. And not a difference in belief I'm willing to overlook.
Even the small gestures...like opening a door...it's a nice gesture, and one that I would certainly reciprocate by doing the same on occassion.
And this one just cracks me up!  Are there really women out there who if they got to the door first would stand back and wait for the man to get there and open it?? I would feel SO silly doing that! In my book, common courtesy dictates that if you reach a door and there is someone behind you, you hold it - I don't care what their sex or age. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/8/2008 11:35:34 PM |
And this one just cracks me up! Are there really women out there who if they got to the door first would stand back and wait for the man to get there and open it?? I would feel SO silly doing that! In my book, common courtesy dictates that if you reach a door and there is someone behind you, you hold it - I don't care what their sex or age.
You are taking it to an extreme, that's why you are
There are many occasions when this happens, man opening the door for you. It is normal and natural. I have this happening every day, even in the office building, I don't expect it, but there are many good mannered men out there and everywhere. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/8/2008 11:36:07 PM | Re the Opost and "Go to the thread "a date from hell" and you will quickly discover that those numbers are substantiated."
An 80% stat based on a single thread cannot be extrapolated to an 80% of all POFF ("global forums") or POF or women in North America or "the Western World".
As per implying traditional gender roles, I think that yes, to a such extent, it does. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/8/2008 11:43:25 PM | What do you mean by dates?
Do you mean messages on cyber space? Where its all not real, just total strangers in a room alone at a PC, making contact with words and pictures (which it appears are all not quite true)
Do you mean cyber chat? (Trouble with this one is a lot of men feel they are being funny, but it comes across as rude and arrogant, Humour is sooooooo hard to convey, even with a laughing icon).
OR A meeting in person, where two adults make the effort to present themselves in the same place at the same time for the purposes of showing their best side to the other person in the hope that they will meet again? | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 4:35:29 AM | TheRealThing2....since it was my original comments to the thread that you quoted....
And doesn't this just seem like common sense?
YES! :) It IS common sense, more so than "dating etiquette." MY POINT EXACTLY. However, there are plenty of people who are so headstrong about the so-called traditional dating etiquette, that this common sense flies out the window! And the thing I find most lackadaisical about "traditional dating" is that it becomes something that does not allow a man and woman to start out as equals. HE is expected to do so much to "prove" his worth from the very beginning...whereas HER traditional values won't really surface until/unless the dating becomes a serious relationship...or..."traditionally"...marriage. That, in my opinion, is not equality being brought to the dating table.
And this one just cracks me up! Are there really women out there who if they got to the door first would stand back and wait for the man to get there and open it?? I would feel SO silly doing that! In my book, common courtesy dictates that if you reach a door and there is someone behind you, you hold it - I don't care what their sex or age.
YES...there are women who would do such...and I concur with your statement of "feeling silly!" I would naturally open it first...not because of gender roles, but because of common courtesy...even if it resulted in his taking over the position, and my scooting under his arm to enter first. (With a "thank you" and a smile following!)
But there are also women who expect (and the men who expect them to!) to wait until a car door is open for them...who will stand waiting for her seat to be pulled out...and of course, who would not budge to pick up the check upon it's arrival or reach for their credit card!
This is exactly what I meant in my first quoted example...I do things with a DATE because of common courtesy, more so than gender based roles. When the dating becomes a relationship...he may do things that SEEM gender based, but it is more about PREFERENCES or TALENTS for me, than gender. I can wheel the garbage tote out to the street just as well as he can....he won't be expected to do such, because he has a penis. I won't be expected to cook because I have t1ts and ass...but because I enjoy such.
I wonder if people who are so hung up on "traditional" dating...are also consumed by the need for "traditional" sex?! Must the man always be the initiator? Is it straight up missionary sex? Sorry...it was a thought in this warped mind of mine! | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 5:15:02 AM | oh my, another gender dividing thread started by happy g. what a surprise!
first two posts of yours hg:
It appears that roughly 40% of men and 80% of women adhere to old traditional values when it comes to dating. Now granted, if you are a lady, you naturally would enjoy a man with traditional dating beliefs. However, I am getting more and more convinced that traditional dating etiquette translates to traditional gender role expectations and could hence be used to gauge behavior to come.
As such, what are your thoughts in regards to this thesis? Are men with traditional dating etiquette more prone to adhere and believe in traditional gender roles as well?
Define what you mean by "traditional values when it comes to dating".
Traditional dating values would include:
a) The man asking the woman out.
b) The man plans and pays for the date.
c) The man adhere to chivalry tenets and believes (open doors, send roses etc).
d) The man is primarily responsible for the initial courting rituals etc.
Define "traditional gender role expectations".
These would include.
a) The man is the primary breadwinner and head of household.
b) The man is responsible for repairs and the financial aspects of the household while the woman is responsible for the maintenance of the home and children.
Does that help?
it helps me to see you are still preaching your views you were saying in the mega thread 'Are US men taken for granted?'
Seems to me this is completely gender specific again in the way you worded it -your question in bold above is just asking the men, now isn't it hg?- and also appears you only want answers from men again - or rather, will only respect answers from men again.
Well, it seems to me - if the men are like you - then it sounds like yes, they would be stuck in their dated views when it comes to both dating and sharing a marriage with a woman.
BUT, I know no traditional men like you portray here. My dating does not adhere to your ideas, nor did my sharing a home follow your ideas either.
And I can't believe you are still preaching this attitude and this subject, hg.....as if 100 + pages of this stuff wasn't enough for you.
Will you open your mind to see perhaps you're living in a bubble from the past of how you were brought up and see in your southern environment (one specific part of the country) and so it seems this is how you view things in general today - but it is a distorted and very limited and limiting view.
Hmmm, I'm thinking of course you know what you 're saying and decided to start another thread knowing exactly what you are doing and determined to get another big match going between men and women. Great. Just what the site and forums needed.
By the way, regarding your opinions and figures you made up from a forum thread full of negativity about dates from hell!!! - oh my god hg - well that's obejctive evidence, now isn't it - well, I do not fall into your statistics at all - and none of the women who are ladies fall into them either - um, let's see - that makes 100% of the women I know do not fall into your statistics - so 0% from this corner, sir...near Boston - educated and expensive part of the country!
I think with so many divorces and it taking so much to even just survive in this country now - it's really impossible for things to be as you imagine they still are, or should be, or appear to be in your view......women HAVE to be head of households and therefore the main breadwinners because they are the only breadwinners.....and with being in charge of their lives and finances, the women I know are also in charge of their dating - they do the courting at least as much as men, if not more.....they share in the expense of the dating (as I know many of us tried to get through to you in the mega thread, but it seems you just couldn't or wouldn't hear us).....
basically, you're quite wrong, HG, on your thoughts, at least in the circle of people that I know.....and it's a big circle.
Why don't you go back and do some real research that is based on some real facts and then come back with what you discover - but of course that's too much work for you - much easier to just grab what you see from a forum thread and make up the rest to match your own views and then preach them as statistics.....
big sigh. i can't believe even you believe the crap you've put here this time. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 5:26:24 AM | Everyone I've ever gone out with has been more of the "traditional" variety. I don't plan it that way, it just works out that way. At least if you are talking about who pays for what. The last actual relationship I was in, and it was about a year long, the guy wouldn't let me pay for ANYTHING, and I'd get so irritated at him from time to time.
For example, if I wanted to go to a movie, and he hadn't gotten paid yet, and needed to not spend much money for the next few days, yet I'd JUST gotten paid, we had to wait a few days till he got paid to go to the movie because he would NOT let me pay for the movies. Even though it was my idea to go to the movies in the first place. It drove me crazy, I just didn't see what the big deal was! There were a few times he let me pick up a tab, but I had to practically pick a fight with him to do it! He just felt so guilty if I paid for anything!
So IMO he kinda went off the deep end with the "traditional" thing, but like I said, just about everyone I've gone out with has been more "traditional" That's definitely not a requirement for me...it's not something I know about them before I get to know them, those just seem to be the people I happen to meet I guess. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 5:41:48 AM | | If women want traditional dates they better be a true lady. A lady back in the days was one didn't have sex until marriage. A lady never swore, didn't have a job, etc. So if you are working you're not technically a lady. A lady won't demand equal rights, a lady doesn't need to request for equals rights, she doesn't have to ask. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 6:48:04 AM | Are there really women out there who if they got to the door first would stand back and wait for the man to get there and open it??
Yes, me - what of it?
... in these days of 'correctness' I'll be damned if I'll let A WOMAN tell me what to do!
The attractions is based on opposite polarities, s0 when one expects woman to behave like man, the polarities are neutralized, therefore the attraction ceases... I am a woman and I want to be treated as one in my relationship
Perfect. | |
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