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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 7:02:33 AM | it helps me to see you are still preaching your views you were saying in the mega thread 'Are US men taken for granted?'
Seems to me this is completely gender specific again in the way you worded it -your question in bold above is just asking the men, now isn't it hg?- and also appears you only want answers from men again - or rather, will only respect answers from men again.
Well, it seems to me - if the men are like you - then it sounds like yes, they would be stuck in their dated views when it comes to both dating and sharing a marriage with a woman.
BUT, I know no traditional men like you portray here. My dating does not adhere to your ideas, nor did my sharing a home follow your ideas either.
And I can't believe you are still preaching this attitude and this subject, hg.....as if 100 + pages of this stuff wasn't enough for you.
Hmmm, I'm thinking of course you know what you 're saying and decided to start another thread knowing exactly what you are doing and determined to get another big match going between men and women. Great. Just what the site and forums needed.
This actually went thru my head when I first started reading the OP and first couple posts, WeAre1...it's exactly what I thought. Hmmm.
Will you open your mind to see perhaps you're living in a bubble from the past of how you were brought up and see in your southern environment (one specific part of the country) and so it seems this is how you view things in general today - but it is a distorted and very limited and limiting view.
By the way, regarding your opinions and figures you made up from a forum thread full of negativity about dates from hell!!! - oh my god hg - well that's obejctive evidence, now isn't it - well, I do not fall into your statistics at all - and none of the women who are ladies fall into them either - um, let's see - that makes 100% of the women I know do not fall into your statistics - so 0% from this corner, sir...near Boston - educated and expensive part of the country!
Interesting, and probably true as far as the southern environment - totally true that the northeast is not this way - I'd say we're less like that than most of the country. P.S....I just realized you are about an hour away from me, WeAre1, perhaps we should grab a drink and dinner sometime! Hearth and Kettle in Hyannis, perhaps? We're both females, so at least there'll be no issue about who has to pay! lol | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 7:11:32 AM | I think the following post sums things up well, and also 'trumps' the OP's hypothesis about the 'significance' of what he points out. What I mean is, sure, if a traditional man met a new age woman (or about lets say 3/4 of the educated women in modern Western culture) HE or SHE 'might' see some role differences on the first date...that would translate into into predictable differences later, bla bla bla, but isn't this just a another redundant topic for the same ole same ole issues in POF forums?
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(((Our society is confused by the effect of feminism movement. It grew first out .....of suppression in many different areas of life, work place is one example.
But when it comes to intimate relationship, we are not equal, meaning not the same. The attractions is based on opposite polarities, s0 when one expects woman to behave like man, the polarities are neutralized, therefore the attraction ceases... I am a woman and I want to be treated as one in my relationship. Simultaneously, it is my human right to be treated equally in a work place, and earn the same $$$ similarly like man who is doing similar kind of work. Simple.
As far as female and male attraction, no way jose, I want to be treated as a woman, I am very traditional in this belief. Opening doors, roses, chocolates, these are all small gestures to make feel like a woman. Yes, paying for a meal on the first date, even though I am capable doing this on my own. It isn't actually about money, it is about..)))
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(((Are men with traditional dating etiquette more prone to adhere and believe in traditional gender roles as well?))) The problem is hypothesis testing must be done using a scientific method, and none is included. So we are back to "gender generalizing" ie "men with traditional dating etiquette" who adhere to "traditional gender roles". Isn't that a self-fulfilling prophecy? Like asking if people who like Punk Rock tend to believe in Punk Rock lyrics, etc etc?
Or if the average male is 5'9" tall, 190 pounds, with a 6inch weeniee, could we write a hypothesis "does the average male date the average women".
Would someone please think up more useful questions for the POF audience?
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 7:28:37 AM | I didn't read the whole thread, frankly, this has been covered in so many threads. But I'll play just to add my 2 cents.
First off let's deal with your stats, even if you were to say those 80% 40% women/men stats were actually based on hard counted responses on the forums they do NOT accurately represent the population. Since I was told on many occasions only 2-4% of POF posts to the forums that would not be representative of the group of potential daters. When viewed as a whole most posters (first time) have some lament of dating woe. Many posters have a jaundiced view of the oppoite sex due to current or recent problems with them.
Now as to me, let's call me a hybrid, not dissimilar to what I think most are. I have raised my daughters to be independant women, not dependeant on any man, now or in the future. They make their money, have jobs, have non traditional relationships with men. They have initiated contact, asked men on dates, lived their lives as they saw fit. In my life, I had 2 long terms, one in which the woman took the traditional stay at home role, raised kids, kept house, etc. One was a working executive woman, where work was split, shopping, cleaning, laundry, etc. We split roles of paying bills, savings, trip planning, all the other things that couples do.
My views on the dating thing who asks, who pays, who contacts do run to a more traditional role. Would I be averse to a woman doing it. No I wouldn't, though I don't see it happening in my age range. Women over 45 do not intiate dates, pay, it's hard enough to get them to start contact. As I have said before "if you never ask, your never going to pay". When you look at this issue though, did anyone of us set up these rules, no. We do have to live by them though, maybe over time this will change, I don't think any of us will see it, which is no different than the women's movement, civil rights or anything similar. Change takes time, and it will be years until it is embraced by any or all. No different than those other things.
All the rants yelling, screaming, flames on here will change nothing. In the thousands of years of mankinds existance the same precepts apply, change comes slowly. Remember if you will, the average man's total knowledge as an adult in 1899 was the equivalent of the front page of the NY Times, that's one front page only. Look how far in knowledge and understanding we have come in 100 years. Now with the hone computer you can get a vast range of knowledge, he11, we're having a discussion with dozens of people, from all walks of life, thousands of miles from each other. The paradigm of relations between man and woman will develop at it's own pace, and no one, I mean no one can move it along any faster than it's own design. Bob | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 7:36:06 AM | let's call me a hybrid, not dissimilar to what I think most are. I have raised my daughters to be independant women, not dependeant on any man, now or in the future. They make their money, have jobs, have non traditional relationships with men. They have initiated contact, asked men on dates
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Bob, you too have summed up a very common modern viewpoint. Which is exactly why it makes the OP's "hypothesis" so vague. Its just like asking "do people of the same race prefer their race", or "If you date an Asian person, can you expect Asian beliefs in the relationship", or "If you date a sports nut, is that a predictor there will be much talk about sports".
Yes, Traditional people will have traditional beliefs (and thus relationship ideas).
Emergent people will have emergent beliefs (and thus relationship ideas). | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 7:49:57 AM | | Olyman, yes that is true, though everyone learns and evolves. I agree many of my generation will stay rooted in the lifestyle they have grown in and embraced. Some however will embrace change and move to the new paradigm. In each generation there are always a few radicals. But to think everyone will embrace it is futile. People just don't work or grow that way, especially with regard to their personal lives. It took 20 years for the general population to embrace the personal computer, and I would be willing to bet still 15% or more don't have one despite the vast reduction in cost, advent of the internet and ease of operation. Bob | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 7:52:31 AM | Now as to me, let's call me a hybrid, not dissimilar to what I think most are. I have raised my daughters to be independant women, not dependeant on any man, now or in the future. They make their money, have jobs, have non traditional relationships with men. They have initiated contact, asked men on dates, lived their lives as they saw fit.
Bob...that's awesome. Just wanted to stop and say - how refreshing...a quick kudos to all men who raised their daughters to be totally self sufficient and not need a man for anything. Fathers who teach their daughters survival are truly loving and caring for them. It's much better than the fathers who raised their daughters, handed them nothing but the best and taught them any man who didn't take care of them weren't worthy. No man can live up to that, and in the end it does the woman herself a great disservice.
A friend of mine who's nearly 50 married a man who eventually started beating her (after the marriage was a couple years in, of course). Since the tradition was to raise the daughters and give them away back in the 50s, 60s, 70s even...her father in traditional (Sicillian) custom where daughters of your own were almost less important than sons of someone else did not step in when he found out about it...he felt that she now belonged to her husband and she married into it. If she wanted out, she had to get herself out. Eventually she did...and divorced him. She had a weird feeling before walking down the aisle and wanted to back out (as so many of my now divorced friends told me they did, funny) but her father had already spent the money and forced her to so as not to embarass the family.
Yes, that's an isolated story, but I never forgot that - it's traumatic to me that anyone's mindset was ever like this; but I bet this was more common back then than anyone let on...and all I can say is if we're moving away from that in this day and age, thank God. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 7:57:12 AM | personal computer
Allow me to make the distinction! Personal computers may well be regarded as progress - heaven knows I spend hours lounging on a hammock peeling grapes as a result of being able to shop online ... not.
Some people see no progress in the breaking-down of traditional values (myself included)! The poster above (La Jaconde) hit the right point for me when she said that romantic attraction is about acknowledging and celebrating our differences ... | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 8:23:10 AM | i hadn't realized that this rant was just a continuation of some guy's rant on another thread. thanks for pointing that out.
Just some things things I have noticed on the boards:
men who refer to themselves as 'gentlemen" usually are not.
women who refer to themselves as "sweet" or "candy" usually are not.
You can't tell which person is going to be into traditional dating values versus 'fair minded " unless they say this on their profile.
Judging or generalizing about the world based upon the rants and ravings of people on these threads is NOT a good method for a study on anything. Heck , it isn't even representative of what happens on POF let alone the world. It is just representative of those people who post on the threads.
It has been pointed out ( thanks m*****, x******, and j** ) that many women who don't agree with the "extreme point of view" simply don't bother getting involved with the threads that deal with that topic. Its been done to death, nothing is ever accomplished and it's boring. So there may be 10 000 views but only the comments from those people having vested interests in defending that position keep posting.
The women who are unabashedly oldstyle - who are honest about it and who who see no need to defend themselves- are enjoying life more than the majority of the rest of the women. This is my opinion. Their values are set, they appreciate these values and don't really care about what the rest of the people think.
They associate certain things/actions with other things that in their opinion are positive and affirming. So they look for people who do these things. Its their preference.
They never ask anyone out yet they put themselves in a position to be asked. So they do nothing directly yet act in an indirect manner. I avoid these people like they are the plague as in my opinion, these behaviour is an indication of something more insidious. And that bodes poorly for the relationship.
A woman actually said to me that she practiced this behaviour. It is my preference that I would prefer people to NOT do that sort of thing. So I avoided her.
People in my neck of the woods rarely get bend out of shape about these emerging dating styles. IN any event, they aren't emerging. They have always been here.
Maybe its due to the many small cities in Canada: maybe the people who have decided to live in these smaller cities ( less than 50 000 or up to 100 000) are simply of a different mindset.
or maybe they are "oldschool style" yet have figured out that you can't pi$$ off too many people with that sort of thing as word gets around.
Probably 6 of one, half dozen of the other... how's that for stats...?  | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 8:27:34 AM |
The women who are unabashedly oldstyle - who are honest about it and who who see no need to defend themselves- are enjoying life more than the majority of the rest of the women. This is my opinion. Their values are set, they appreciate these values and don't really care about what the rest of the people think.
I love you.
I didn't read the rest of your post because my head went gooey.
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 8:33:46 AM | I like to be a gentleman. I like to hold doors. I like to buy flowers. I like to pay for dinner.
But when these things are expected of me... it takes all of the fun out of it.
I guess I'm in the middle when it comes to etiquette.
I appreciate a woman who wants to go dutch. Mostly because I've probably already worked out a spending limit for the date (not a low ball, mind you... but I balance my budget in my head. If this sounds tacky, I'm sorry.) and it feels like a gift to me for some odd reason. If she offers to buy me dinner... I'm putty in her hands.
Generally, though, I treat as much as I can afford to. (I like to make people happy.)
As to gender roles... no.
I'm not a manly man. While I could probably do basic handy work, I'd need to read a book/web site first. Also, if you see me under a car... I'm not doing work... ring for an ambulance.
I don't expect a woman to clean. (And I can do my own laundry, thanks.) Though it would be nice if she could cook, because then I would have someone to cook with. (Because I like having someone around to help me cook.)
I don't do the whole, "I'm the man, and we do what the man says" thing (well... I might make a joke about it, but I would never seriously say it...), and I genuinely want an equal partner. That means that both people work together as a team. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 8:36:13 AM | rtw,
I understand and appreciate your outlook. It just isn't one that I would prefer at this point in my life.
we'd probably make good if not great friends but terrible partners - not that you'd ever want to... and neither would I...lol... on that we both agree.
Which is a good thing for both of us...lol..
we understand where the other is, how they think and just let it go at that.
We'd meet once a year in Paris, have a drink at a table in front of the fountain to compare notes and swap stories
at nights, we's share our adventures - yours would be far more entertaining.
and then we'd go our different ways.
the sun sets and comes up the next day.
as always...
mm | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 8:56:02 AM | Oh good grief people! This whole argument is getting SO old! There is not a day that goes by that this crap isn't being argued here in the forums... This is a DATING site! If you want to make a good impression on a lady, ANY lady, at least offer to man up and pay for freaking DINNER! 
But if you REALLY want to make a good impression, get the door for her too. Speak to her with respect, and be courteous. Listen as much, or more, than you talk. Don't shove your toungue down her throat on the first date if the signals just aren't there... etc... etc... Get the drift?
Come on - this is not rocket science! You guys can argue over this stuff 'til the cows come home if you want to - but at the end of the day - how smart is THAT!? What quality woman who may read this garbage on your profile is going to want to go out with you!? A little common sense may be in order???
Mark
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 9:34:08 AM |
Oh good grief people! This whole argument is getting SO old! There is not a day that goes by that this crap isn't being argued here in the forums... This is a DATING site! If you want to make a good impression on a lady, ANY lady, at least offer to man up and pay for freaking DINNER!
But if you REALLY want to make a good impression, get the door for her too. Speak to her with respect, and be courteous. Listen as much, or more, than you talk. Don't shove your toungue down her throat on the first date if the signals just aren't there... etc... etc... Get the drift?
Come on - this is not rocket science! You guys can argue over this stuff 'til the cows come home if you want to - but at the end of the day - how smart is THAT!? What quality woman who may read this garbage on your profile is going to want to go out with you!? A little common sense may be in order???
Mark
apart from this post, no one seems to be upset at anything.
there is very little arguing happening.
Just people of different opinion stating their opinions.
we ( the usual players who post on these things ) all know each other now and no ones gets their undies in a wad over this stuff...
well.. unless you count the above post.... who may be sitting a bit uncomfortably at the moment.
the above post seems to indicate a style of thinking that thinks that everyone else thinks the same way. It may never occur to this post that their definition of a "quality" woman may differ from anyone else's.
There is an implication in that comment " quality woman" that may not hold true across the board.
I bet some women cringed when they read that as one implication is that women who don't believe this are not of a certain 'quality'.
ouch.
Just as a woman insists that the man treat her according to her wishes, it is also true that the man would likewise want a woman who treats each other in whatever manner he wishes.
It could be that the man simply doesn't want a woman who expects this stuff.
and the women for their part, certainly don't want men who won't do this stuff.
Posts such as this simply assist everyone in seeing what people are like. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 9:48:47 AM |
Posts such as this simply assist everyone in seeing what people are like
Actually, momarks, though I appreicate your posts...I have often got the sense from you that you think the more "tradtional" women are the bad ones...even though you say it politely.
In my opinion..there is far more criticism about women who are traditional than the other way around..even more so from women..seems accepting someone as they are doesn't reply in reverse?
I am tired of the whole...my way is the only good/honest/fair/acceptable way..regardless of who's side it's coming from...guess I can't do much about it..except post that it would be nice to discuss differenes without judgments on either side...or declaring only one "right" way..sigh | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 9:57:25 AM | ^^^I agree that although men at times think the feminist movement was evil, a big part of that movement was about choice for women. I don't believe it's fair for women who choose certain things in life to shame or make wrong women who don't choose what they do. By default, men have that same choice...tho sometimes you wonder if they know it.
Therefore if a woman chooses tradition, and the man she's dating also chooses tradition, then that's her life and no one should make her wrong or "weak" for it. Well we shouldn't care if they're both different within the relationship either long as between them, they make their lives work.
By the same token, women who don't choose tradition shouldn't be made to feel "unladylike" by those who are traditional...as there are men who will agree with this way of thinking.
As I said before, if all can embrace the mindset that what they want in a relationship is not wrong so long as they can find someone to date who agrees with it...then this day and age will be a lot more beneficial and smooth for all involved. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 10:30:39 AM | To the Marks mo and swamp, see swamp they sucked us in again after that long debate on the other thread. To Mo, the other Mark and I were locked into this other thread with a few guys and gals. It went on just about all weekend. Whether you see this as traditional or non everyone has their own viewpoint, no one is going to change the other. Societal norms will evolve at whatever rate they do, but no thread will shift a paradigm no matter how convincing an argument is mounted.
I think really the core issue is the confusion related to which person lady or man are you encountering. For myself, since I'm most comfortable with a traditionalist view I will stay there. Now if I encounter a woman of the other viewpoint, I will not overstep her comfort level, though it is confusing at times especially when trying to make a good impression. In dating that truly is what it's all about I think. Bob | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 10:33:43 AM |
oh my, another gender dividing thread started by happy g. what a surprise!
first two posts of yours hg:
WeAre1. The "Are US males taken for granted" thread was about whether men feel like they are taken for granted. This thread is about whether men with "traditional" dating ettiquette also believe in "traditional" relationships. The topics are completely different and I am sadened to see that you can't see or understand the difference.
As far as the gender war analogy, you are the one sidetracking and hijacking the topics while simultaneously blaiming me for doing so. And that is ironic to say the least.
Well, it seems to me - if the men are like you - then it sounds like yes, they would be stuck in their dated views when it comes to both dating and sharing a marriage with a woman.
I'm 100% emergent in my cultural beliefs. Isn't that extremely apparent by now. How do you manage to warp your mind to come up with statements like the one above.
BUT, I know no traditional men like you portray here. My dating does not adhere to your ideas, nor did my sharing a home follow your ideas either.
It was a hypothesis which most people who actually addressed the question before making it a personal vendetta against Happy answered that the hyposesis does not hold water. And I accept that answer or I would not pose the question. Why I don't understand is why you spin this in a personal direction! What is wrong with you!!
And I can't believe you are still preaching this attitude and this subject, hg.....as if 100 + pages of this stuff wasn't enough for you!
Once again, the topics are completely different. It is your problem that you failed to recognize this.
Will you open your mind to see perhaps you're living in a bubble from the past of how you were brought up and see in your southern environment (one specific part of the country) and so it seems this is how you view things in general today.
Southern???? I was raised in Europe but lived for a brief moment in Southern US! You should know that by know! Where do you come up with all your unsubstantiated and unrelated rants? Are you having a bad day and decided to take it out on me?
Ps. On a personal note; Stop using your fabricated "pacifist and loving" persona. The sham is so transparent at this stage. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 10:47:25 AM | Preta Porter:
Some people see no progress in the breaking-down of traditional values (myself included)! The poster above (La Jaconde) hit the right point for me when she said that romantic attraction is about acknowledging and celebrating our differences ...
Thank you for acknowledgment. If I may suggest an excellent book written by David Deida - one written for a woman "Dear Lover" and the second one written for a man called "The way of the superior man" all your answers to above question will confirm what you already know.
All this arguing on the foras, how one thinks should be, I find waste of time and energy, power struggle and inflated egos, who is right. The point is there are some things that are universal, and they are not just a matter of opinion. Overall opinions do change often, that's why they don't mean anything. If you want to understand the dynamics about sexual attraction between male and female, I highly recommend David Deida- he has become my fast guru over last summer months. This is not just about the theory, it is about deeper understanding of the needs between female and male.
I wrote on forums last year on that very subject, but I unfortunately I cannot access it.
To just briefly summarize this point, is that as a result of feminism movement, now our bank accounts balance, we know what to do if we need an car oil change, but our relationship with men are more frustrating. There is clearly no balance, we went from one extreme to next... this effects both genders, man and woman.
Understand this, it is about attraction of opposite polarities, if I am expected to act like a man in my romantic relationship - I am not longer a woman in that relationship. I could write more, but there is no point as I am not writing a book here.
David Deida I highly recommend. David Deida is certainly a superior man, a man who understands a woman is a woman, we are to be loved and cherished by our man. A superior man understands this... it was a real eye opener for me.
I once long time ago was going out with Canadian fella, he was like "white bread and butter"...go figure, I was annoyed by his lack of manners...example in the restaurant he would quickly shout to a waiter what he wanted to drink. When I go out with my Polish friends it is such different experience. When the waiter arrives and asks for drinks, my friend would ask me first what I would like to drink before making his order. I pointed out this to my date, and his answer was that I live in Canada and I need to get used to it. Well,
Well, why would I lower my standards, I come from Europe and I consider my culture and country more sophisticated than the land I am in. Maybe I am opening a can of pandora, I don't quite care ... but my answer was, that why doesn't he raise up to my standards, why should I lower mine and become a cave woman.
We live in patriarchal society when woman is forgotten, suppressed but the feminine needs to be revered.
thanks, La Jaconde | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 11:32:11 AM | actually, Happy - when I realized I had been really negative in my previous post - the extra negative slant and attacking you personally I did try and edit it out only to find the time ran out when I pressed 'update' in trying to get my wording right.
so I am sorry for my extra personal negativity thrown in there.
the reason i saw you repeating yourself in this thread was because your numbered points on what makes traditional dating etiquette and role expectations all through the mans' eyes were exactly what you were seeming to be saying so much and basing your complaints so much about on the 'men for granted' thread...that men were being taken for granted for those exact things - expected from them...and more.
and when so many of the women tried to tell you, no, it is not like that traditionally for us in the dating or living in our homes world, you could not seem to hear us, still complaining how we never pay for ourselves, or how we still turn to men for these traditional needs you believed we all must still need....
i'm sorry, Happy, that it seems to be you who just can not see the similarities.....perhaps it is part of the problem....
and, actually, i agree with those here who said isn't it logical that those who are raised to believe in traditional style dating to believe in traditional style living with another too.
by the way, I like being treated with respect and sometimes I hold the door for men, and sometimes they hold it for me....it does not mean I am not a lady.....
all people like being respected, as I know you do also, HG.
i'm sorry it sounded like i didn't respect you....i felt aggravated you were still pushing a thread with these basic ideas just written another way - but certainly a channel for you to keep expressing these views of yours......or whatever views you feel are good to say here because they'll get people biting .....well, i foolishly bit - i will be more careful in the future.
seems we both wind each other up now, doesn't it! you're right - this does show i have my limits with being compassionate too....something i clearly need to address in myself....and i will. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 11:42:07 AM | There is one statement here somewhere that I agree about.
What a woman does or doesn't do, accepts or doesn't accept, does indeed...... set the standard in the relationship.
Courtship, is for that purpose.
I don't mean to say, it's up to the woman completely, but from my point of view.....we learn early on, the difference between a player and a gentleman. We act accordingly. A smart woman makes smart choices. She wants a good man in her life, she'll be a good woman.
It's not that hard really. What does ettiquette got to do with it ? | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 12:13:32 PM |
so I am sorry for my extra personal negativity thrown in there.
You are not sorry!! Nor do you have any credibility as your fabricated persona is transparent. I am going to call you out in a personal way that I never done before because it is time someone publicly call out this charade, especially since you systematically portray yourself as something you are not!
You have made it into practice to go on viscous personal attacks after which you come back with an insincere apologetic post or e-mail. All to appease the people reading the public forums and to continue the fabricated persona sham. In reality, you are not only dubious and vicious, but a remarkable hypocrite as well.
Secondly, you clearly don’t comprehend the joust behind this thread. Instead, you take words and twist them in an unintended direction in a feeble attempt to establish a connection between the intent of this and another thread. And that is despicable!
Thirdly, you were very vocal in a prior post against thread hijacking and here you are doing the very same thing you proclaim to despise. And that makes you a hypocrite!
Its time for you to earn up to who you really are!!
Now back to the thread topic. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 12:54:07 PM | First off, yes, let's get back to the thread, because it's a very thoughtful discussion about dating roles and expectations -- for a change.
Earlier, (before we got off topic) HappyG posted :
I have personally notice the same transition to preferred roles and responsibilityes based on abilities. But as a Gen X man, I also have to say that sometimes expectations are confusing. Although "unstoppables" post was over the top, he clearly expressed this confusion. I believe there is a grey area between traditional and emergent value sets which is the key to great relationships. Its when people see it as black and white you run into trouble. But it is confusing non the less and not only for men, but for women as well.
I think this is an excellent observation, that GenXers do tend to take on the roles and responsibilities they feel they are best at. The economics of relationships are particularly impacted, because many professional women are able to earn over 6 figures. In modern society, this is not at all uncommon, but it was probably unheard of in the 50s. I can't imagine a guy who is say, teaching and earning around 40 or 50k really putting pressure on his wife to leave a great paying job in the 150ks after she has established senority, is good at her work and has already done the hard work to reach this level of employment (school and securing an initial position)
However, Zangie back on page 3 noted that "women" are not a homogenius group. The fact is, women, just like men, (despite what Jefferson stated in the Declaration of Independence) may be granted equal rights, but will always have unequal abilities. Some women will be big earners in the work force, will be good with money, i.e., saving and investing, some will be awful with money, and it might make sense for the husband to be in charge of the budget in that case and I don't think this is an affront to independence or whatever, it's just based on that particular woman sucking with money. Some will want kids or won't want kids and there's no way to redefine or reconcile "women's" traditional roles with emerging roles without taking note of this. Unlike in the 50s, where the difference from one woman to another was held constant as far as the market place was concerned, these days, relationships need to be more flexible to accomodate, not only the difference in women of 2008 vs. "traditional" 50s woman, but also the difference between all women in 2008. It's simply harder to make hard and fast rules when lifestyles are so so different between individuals.
However, HappyG also made another good point:
I am getting the feeling that most men do want a women that is devoted and takes care of them. Nothing wrong with that. But if that is your expectation as a man, then you should also adhere to chivalry tenets (just my oppinion).
Whatever reapportioning of roles we do based on the economic environment we live in, it's important to remember to care about each other. I don't think being a "liberated" woman in an "equal" relationship is incompatible with this. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 1:56:40 PM |
I am getting the feeling that most men do want a women that is devoted and takes care of them. Nothing wrong with that. But if that is your expectation as a man, then you should also adhere to chivalry tenets (just my oppinion).
twss,
this is only a "good point' as you say, IF the person believes that this is true.
Just like those guys who think that women are only after their money_ some women are most aren't. it's a good point if it is true. and it may only be true in your personal experience.
I don't personally know many men who want a woman that is devoted to them in the degree that is implied here. I know many men who want an equal partner- and this doesn't necessarily or exclusively mean equal financial contribution. But equal respect with neither partner diminishing the contributions of the other.
If both parties agree that whatever they bring into the relationship is "good enough" for them, then its hunky dorey.
I suspect that this is what women want as well.
I don't really care if they have money on their list of requirements or that the guy pays for dinner.
For the people who know what they want and don't quibble or complain about it, the world is their oyster.
I don't know how anyone "gets the feeling" on this sort of thing. Unless you put great emphasis on the rants that appear on these threads as being evidence of something that could be transferred to the general public. They can't. it's like that completely bogus 'new social phenomenon" that didn't happen. It gives people a chance to rant and complain - it is just a parable.
Guys talking amongst themselves is hardly a good sample as few people hang out with people who are different from them- not on a regular basis.
many of the guys who post on the threads complain too much about stuff is how I see it.
and women don't often date other women to see the men's viewpoint. So they have no idea how often the negative interaction actually happens.
its frustrating to both parties when one has the old fashioned mindset and the other doesn't have that same system.
However, some guys continually run into women who expect things .
And some women continually date men who refuse to pay.
So it's really "THEM ". not the other person. | |
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| Traditional vs. Emergent Dating Etiquette and Beliefs.
Posted: 7/9/2008 2:37:46 PM |
I don't personally know many men who want a woman that is devoted to them in the degree that is implied here.
Momarks, I only know of one degree of devotion.  You either have it, or you don't. You may not expect your woman to have it, but if you look up after 25 years and she's still sitting there, chances are, she's devoted to you. I guess the challenge is how to express or recognize devotion, when all the traditional indicators have changed.
People, both men and women do complain alot on these forums, probably too much about little things. Often it's money and paying or not paying. Usually there are 29 page posts and probably the issues comes down to about 40 bucks one way or the other. But I think people complain because they are trying to get at a deeper issue and just can't really articulate it, so they harp on a 40 dollar dinner. Money and "paying" is the part of traditional dating roles that are most impacted by women's position in the workforce these days vs. 50 years ago.
but, as you say
For the people who know what they want and don't quibble or complain about it, the world is their oyster. That was probably true in the 50s as well. I also agree, things are not so drastic in relationships as these forums make them out to be, but money is often discussed, because I think a huge variety in woman to woman make it very difficult to make those general rules about male and femal roles that people need for reassurance before they actually find a relationship that works. | |
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