| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/14/2008 9:44:02 AM | | One thing I never understood about Jesus's sacrifice of his own life is apparently he "knew" that much better things awaited him after death. So was it much of a sacrifice? Dying on a cross was no picnic but plenty of others suffered the same faith back then, and many suffered a worse faith(disease, torture, etc). | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/14/2008 9:44:53 AM |
I still don't get the Jesus died for our sins thing. He didn't die. I mean, according to scripture he died, but he was raised from the dead. How could he die for our sins if he's still alive? The illogic of the whole thing is beyond imagination and I doubt anyone is ever going to offer any sort of satisfactory answer to the question, becuase there is no answer: it didn't happen that way. The question is based on a false premise.
This goes along with my disagreements to people on both sides of the coin. It's not about death, otherwise Jesus would have stayed dead. It's about the symbolism of the act. The drawn out logical pure blood of animals explanation people fail to realize that these things were also symbolism and instructed to be done because of the meaning attached, not because the animals blood have magic God powers. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/14/2008 10:15:40 AM |
Just one question: how do you suppose mortals go about killing a God? Correction: The God. Not just a God but the big daddy of them all. How do you suppose we'd go about killing something like that? Think we even could?
Perhaps Jesus wasn't crucified, and if he did, perhaps he didn't 'die' at all.
The premise I understand is that Christ's death was put into effect when He was incarnated into human likeness. His physical death on the cross is the grand finale of His journey into the realm of death that this physical realm and universe has been made subjective to.
John 12:24
I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/14/2008 6:07:33 PM |
One thing I never understood about Jesus's sacrifice of his own life is apparently he "knew" that much better things awaited him after death. So was it much of a sacrifice? Dying on a cross was no picnic but plenty of others suffered the same faith back then, and many suffered a worse faith(disease, torture, etc).
Jesus only "knew" His future insofar as He trusted (had faith) in His Father's promises regarding His future. Even if you don't believe in Him, you could at the least respect His sacrifice as a real and brutally painful one. His death included total separation from His Father. He had never (ever) been separated from His Father. The two had always dwelt in perfect harmony one with the other. Then, in an instant, He went from perfect harmony with His Father to total separation from His father. If you have ever suffered from the loss of a loved one, consider your pain and magnify by more than a millennia of time and you might have a sliver of a sense of what He experienced. Come to think of it, maybe you're right. Being tortured and nailed to a cross really does sound like a "picnic" by comparison with that loss. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/14/2008 7:15:18 PM | Please watch Zeitgeist movie on Google.
It shows exactly how Christianity came form the zodiac and astrology...The Son is The Sun...The 3 Kings are literally part of Orion's Belt...
Unfortunately, people who take the bible literally are, of course, severely brainwashed by their authorty figures they have placed so much trust and faith in; these people refuse to be courageous and educate themselves and listen within to their inner-truth...Read "The Voice of Knowledge" by Don Miguel Ruiz. Also, see The Work of Byron Katie: www.thework.com
Don Miguel Ruiz also wrote: The Four Agreements and Mastery of Love which are also excellent at getting a mental grasp and practicing simple steps to ending human drama; remember you can only change yourself...no one will change for us...we must treat others the way we would want to be treated if we hope to stimulate them to change, learn, and grow.
Steve | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/14/2008 9:34:26 PM | According to the scriptures, Christ was a willing sacrifice for us, much the way Isac - Abrahm's son was willing to do his father's will even unto death...but then God provided Himself the sacrifice. The Christ, our Messiah, our Saviour, came to die. God provided the world with a way to be forgiven . He loves us and wants everyone to live forever and never die. The problem described in scripture is ---The wages of sin is death... All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God....There is none righteous , no not one....
According to the scriptures the law does not correct the sin problem it only points it out. The Ten Commandments are simple yet who can say they have never broken one of them in their whole life. It is easy to see that the Ten Commandments are good , basic rules not to lie not to steal, not to murder ....who can argue what is right is right. But we blow it and we lie and we make mistakes....The only cure for sin is forgiveness through the death of Christ. Once we sin ...and we all do...we can not undo it ..what is done is done God sent Christ to take away the sins of the world. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses a man from all sin... | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/14/2008 10:02:57 PM | | Was it much of a sacrifice? Well, I have wondered why He would bother with us and allow Himself to suffer and die "for me " in particular....His last words- Father forgive them for they know not what they do. He knew we didn't understand then and He knows we don't really understand now. He continues to be our advocate and He gives us a fresh start all clean and all new every morning---His mercies are new every morning. I think that He came to show us that He cares, and that He is so in love with us that he was willing to die in our place so that we could go free... No one could kill Him the scriptures clearly say that He dismissed His spirit- He laid down His life. He put up with all the shame and public humiliation out of love. Only God loves us like that. God is not willing that anyshould perish.... | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/14/2008 10:53:54 PM | Jesus only "knew" His future insofar as He trusted (had faith) in His Father's promises regarding His future. Even if you don't believe in Him, you could at the least respect His sacrifice as a real and brutally painful one. His death included total separation from His Father. He had never (ever) been separated from His Father. The two had always dwelt in perfect harmony one with the other. Then, in an instant, He went from perfect harmony with His Father to total separation from His father. If you have ever suffered from the loss of a loved one, consider your pain and magnify by more than a millennia of time and you might have a sliver of a sense of what He experienced. Come to think of it, maybe you're right. Being tortured and nailed to a cross really does sound like a "picnic" by comparison with that loss. Wasn't jesus god? Or is jesus the son of god? Which is he? I thought jesus was god incarnate. That is, god in the flesh. If jesus is god, how can god be seperated from god? How can god suffer the loss of himself? How can a god die? IMO jesus didn't die like a human if he was really god. Maybe the flesh died, but I don't think jesus died? Does that mean it was all for show? An act to show how god was so loving of people that he sacrificed his son/himself/his son/himself? Which is it? Is he god? Is he the son of god? Is he the son god? All I know is if I were god, dying wouldn't bother me a bit, but I bet it would sure impress my followers knowing I had sacrificed (i.e. killed) myself/my son to show them that I loved them more than my own son/self.
JMHO of course. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/14/2008 11:16:26 PM |
So doing good deeds is self-glorification? Doing good things is a sin?
Don't think that was any where near the point. Doing good deeds for personal recognition, pride, and self-aggrandizement is the problem. Doing good deeds then would lapse into arrogance of doing good. Pride would then lead into sin. By taking away that notion that you can work your way to heaven, doing good is no longer tied to pride or selfishness. Doing good is now tied to simple graditude. We do for others because we are so thankful for what Christ did for us. There is then no need or expectation of reward for doing good. In fact, we were warned that we could be hunted down and killed for our efforts and beliefs. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/15/2008 7:05:34 AM | 1. According to the Bible, humans didn't know that disobeying a direct order was "wrong". That ability was gained after eating of the Tree of Knowledge (Which, by the way, is exactly what Satan said would happen! Curious that Satan would be correct) . Nor could they have understood the concequences, since "death" did not exist. How could they know what that even was?
2. I guess we also differ on the meaning of the word "immediately". Since the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died to pay that wage, we can conclude that forgiveness wasn't granted until Jesus's death. This is several thousand years after the "fall". If GOD (This isn't a shout, BTW, but merely the way I refer to the idea of a Supreme Being) were to have forgiven sin "immediately", I would conclude it would be no later than 1 generation.
3. My point was why there was the "need" to put the concept of right and wrong in writing. You are correct that all people have a code of conduct that they live by. Unfortunately, the code is not universal. That is, what may be "right" for one peoples
(like, for example, killing an enemy and shrinking their head) may be "wrong" for another. IF humans had gained the True knowlege of Right and Wrong from eating of the tree, there wouldn't be this division.
4. Of course, we can only speculate as to the rationale that may be used by a Supreme Being as to why events occured as they did. Thanks for your opinion- it is what these threads are all about!
In my opinion, the book of Genesis is to be taken allegorically. You don't really believe a serpent could talk, do you? | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/15/2008 10:56:39 AM |
Please watch Zeitgeist movie on Google.
It shows exactly how Christianity came form the zodiac and astrology...The Son is The Sun...The 3 Kings are literally part of Orion's Belt...
Unfortunately, people who take the bible literally are, of course, severely brainwashed by their authorty figures they have placed so much trust and faith in; these people refuse to be courageous and educate themselves and listen within to their inner-truth...Read "The Voice of Knowledge" by Don Miguel Ruiz. Also, see The Work of Byron Katie: www.thework.com
Don Miguel Ruiz also wrote: The Four Agreements and Mastery of Love which are also excellent at getting a mental grasp and practicing simple steps to ending human drama; remember you can only change yourself...no one will change for us...we must treat others the way we would want to be treated if we hope to stimulate them to change, learn, and grow.
Steve
Steve, the premise that your theory offers is nothing more than a self-centered desire to glorify the self image of man. It all revolves around the individual focusing on the self and working in the flesh to attempt a godlike image, there is nothing spiritual about it as it revolves around the works of the flesh driven by human effort. The death of Christ nullified this curse of being focused on the self image and also nullified the need to strive after the works of our flesh. Having a revelation of the risen Christ personally, and being given the sign of Jonah, demonstrates the power of the resurrection of Jesus as the Firstborn of all creation. Mankind cannot use self centered works of human effort, to attain the Spiritual image of God, that has been revealed in Christ to those who have been born again of the Spirit, ..... and when the risen Christ is experienced this fultility of works of the flesh to try and attain to the image of God, becomes the obvious.
As far as astrology goes, that depends on the interpreter, the heavens declare the glory of God, that is the message that is written in the stars for those who see God in Christ, as above all things ...
http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/kingdom/heavensindex.html | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/15/2008 2:25:36 PM |
Steve, the premise that your theory offers is nothing more than a self-centered desire to glorify the self image of man. consigliere31, the premise that you theory offers is nothing more than a self-centered desire to glorify the image of your deity so you can feel good about the fact that you choose to believe a nomadic tribe's priests' spiritual writings that were taken from other nomadic tribes and early civilizations, embellished and used to gain control of the tribe so the priests could become wealthy without working.
guy named Ray | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/15/2008 6:06:01 PM | looks like you got the right idea..you have to examine whats being said...does it sound logical.not to me..there certainly wa alot of editing in the first and last ..but when editing they left alot out don't you think..there certainly isn't alot about jesus' life..you'd think jesus being the main character they wouldn't have left out about 2/3 rds of his life...do you? i think of him as a teacher of the right way for us to live..also we are all suppose to be sons and daughters of god...so think on these things  | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/15/2008 8:10:36 PM |
the premise that you theory offers is nothing more than a self-centered desire to glorify the image of your deity so you can feel good about the fact that you choose to believe a nomadic tribe's priests' spiritual writings that were taken from other nomadic tribes and early civilizations, embellished and used to gain control of the tribe so the priests could become wealthy without working.
How exactly is it self-centered if all your love is focused on the Other? | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/15/2008 8:21:38 PM | Adam was given rule over the Earth his fall was to that of subject to the Earth.
Jesus took back rule of the Earth.
Adam's kids are subject to:
Plants (know any drunks?)
Animals (have a cat?)
Weather (rain falls on the just and un just but the just bounce back)
Curses (not the kind that networks bleep out) the worst of all is having to be in the Battle of the sexes
and
Jesus' kids are not.
CIP My friend Sandra had a fly buzzing around her face she said, "Fly you had better get out of my face I am not playing with you." the fly sat down on a blade of grass and did not move until we left. No yelling or in the name required just a basic belief in Jesus.
365 predictions about Jesus came true in one week and that does not count all of the ones before and after that week. God Promised Eve Jesus Had to make good on that promise. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/15/2008 8:30:48 PM | | If God put the Stars in the sky to be signs why would the fact that someone used them for signs be against Him? I think that by trying to find an argument against My God you just put out another one for him. Not only fulfills his tribes but the seers in other tribes as well. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/15/2008 10:45:00 PM | How exactly is it self-centered if all your love is focused on the Other? IMO it's because you focus that love for others for a self-centered reason or reasons.
In other words IMO, you get something out of it, hence the self-centeredness. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/15/2008 11:45:25 PM | I had trouble with understanding that God is actually very different than humans are. One thing that helps me is to think ----species---- cats beget cats, dogs beget dogs, humans beget humans and when God gave His only begotton son , he was God as far as his species goes. The fact that God's son put on flesh and lived a human life for 33 years did not make him any less God, He is God the son. In the Bible it says.... In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God...God is revealed as being God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit- He is able to separate like mercury into three persons and yet be the same substance. ..God made us in His image- Body, Mind, and Spirit-we are three in one beings however we are- human- beings and God is so much more.
Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. He set aside being God much the way Moses set aside being the son of the king of Egypt so that he could be used to set God's people free from slavery....Jesus set aside his being the son of God so that He could set us free from the slavery of sin. Jesus lived life and experienced what we feel in every way ...
He obeyed God the Father, when He prayed--- let this cup pass from me-- Jesus was asking God the Father if He could skip the cross. Then He said not my will but THY will be done---. So Jesus knows how it feels to pray and ask and seek the will of God ..and He knows full well the human experience. God is able to forgive and to forget, we can forgive but rarely can we forget. God not only forgives our sins he strikes them from the record and He removes them - we remember- but God does not ...so if you ever see your sins thrown at you and it is something you have asked God to forgive in Jesus name--it is never God doin it....
It was a very big thing for Jesus to be separated from God and to have all the horror of the worst sins all sin past present and future all laid upon Him on the cross...He knows our sins because He wore them there on the cross. It seems simple but it was more than we can imagine in the spiritual reality it was a huge event and it continues to be today. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/16/2008 2:47:46 AM |
consigliere31, the premise that you theory offers is nothing more than a self-centered desire to glorify the image of your deity so you can feel good about the fact that you choose to believe a nomadic tribe's priests' spiritual writings that were taken from other nomadic tribes and early civilizations, embellished and used to gain control of the tribe so the priests could become wealthy without working.
guy named Ray
ray the premise I am basing my theology on, is more about God glorifying Himself in mankind, by uniting mankind into His own image...the image which is demonstrated and revealed in the resurrected manifestation of Jesus through the agency of the Holy Spirit..
As far as a self-centered desire to worship, we are on different pages as to what form of worship you are referring to and what form I demonstrate. There is no such thing as fears or insecurities in true worship that could cause a self centered motivation, imo...as worship for me is only truly motivated from experiencing expressions of joy, peace, faith, etc.
Please try and stay on topic, as the discussion is about the reasons that Jesus died and not about the evil motives of ancient men who have perverted the gospel of faith. The scriptures reveal a truth regarding the light and darkness, and this light is revealed in Christ, just as the darkness is revealed through the first man Adam.
I was merely pointing out how the premise Steve offerred through the zietgeist theory is the same motivating principle found in the way of the first Adam, which is a quest to attain a godlike image in man....and I was also pointing out how the Spirit that manifested the death of Christ for the sins of the world, directly contradicts the spirit that brings a person under judgments and condemnation. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/16/2008 9:46:17 AM |
as worship for me is only truly motivated from experiencing expressions of joy, peace, faith, etc. IMO experiencing expressions of joy, peace, faith, etc., are self-centered reason (i.e. it's what YOU get out of worship). JMHO | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/16/2008 10:08:24 AM | He is able to separate like mercury into three persons and yet be the same substance. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the analogy is water, not mercury. I was taught only water can be in three states at once - a liquid, a solid (ice) and a gas (vapor). Think an ice cube in water that gives off water vapor.
In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God...God is revealed as being God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit IMO this is exactly the same reasoning the early church father's use to try and explain jesus. The holy spirit didn't come until later. Several biblical scholars I have read believe the scriptures that include the words "father, son and the holy spirit" were later additions to the books adapted as conical by the Council of Nicene.
There is also debate among biblical scholars as to the meaning of "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." Some scholars believe this is also a later addition to defend the church's position that jesus was god. Some scholars that I have read believe it was in the "original' writings but disagree with the premise that the word refers to jesus. They believe that "the word" refers to god's power to create by his "word" (i.e. speaking and it became as in "let there be light and there was light").
Btw, the concept of the trinity didn't happen all at once. The church fathers stated with god and jesus being one and the same, the holy spirit didn't become part of the trinity for about another hundred years or so.
IMO if god wanted us to know for a certainty that he, jesus and the holy spirit were one and the same, he would have made it very clear in "his writings" and not left it up to church father's to explain it to us.
But then again, IMO we are all free to believe what we choose to believe. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/16/2008 5:42:15 PM | | Some really great responses to my initial question. Thanks for all the input and for the person who wrote that I should consult my priest and I wouldn't find any answers here, you were quite wrong. A) I don't have a "priest." B) There are some incredibly intelligent people on this site with excellent thought provoking perspectives. Never mistake a collar for a brain. | |
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