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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/27/2008 1:16:13 AM | Uh dude...I think you totally misread her there...she is in agreement with you.
Remember, it is often hard to read sarcasm in text...not to speak for sassy, but I am pretty sure that thank-you was heartfelt and genuine.
Having said that, would you like mustard, relish, ketchup or hotsauce for your foot?
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/27/2008 1:55:57 AM | why is it a relevant question for You know? Bible has 1000+ of questions you can ask and think about...why this one and now?
ok, but on topic:
Bible teaches sin several way here also, such as:
1.there are sins - good and not goo behaviors,
2. sins should be punished, sacrificed - to bring justice, but not necessarily on 1:1.
3. the main thing is actions have consequences, not only on those who make the actions. sometimes others pay the price - but someone sooner or later always pays.
there are unlimited number of conclusions, teachings that derives even from that small section of Bible - among other aspects - that's why Bible is good basis.
don't read Bible word by word -try to look behind the words, the concepts, the real -sometimes hidden- meanings.
than you get eye-raisers
on the contrary, if you follow word by word, might get blindness... | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/27/2008 10:21:22 AM |
Remember, it is often hard to read sarcasm in text
I know I am straying a bit off topic, but it really is hard to read intention in text, and occasionally in speech. Unless you feel the emotions of the author or speaker, you become lost in meanings and definitions as if God had smote the tower of Babel just yesterday, and the languages were again confounded. Even dictionaries vary in their interpretation of words.
The best authors are those who can forsee the complication, and either avoid controversial material, or explain it in such detail that you can't possibly miss the feeling behind the word. There are certainly 'tricksters' who will play on your emotion and develop a programmed response by addressing your vanities and/or exciting fears.
Bible has 1000+ of questions you can ask and think about...why this one and now?
I can recall many times when my innocent questions were misinterpreted as agenda pushing, and the numerous responses of those who debated the unintended agenda without even attempting to answer the very simple and sincere question. Jesus was a Master of asking open-ended questions, and the Pharisees were much like those who would fit an unintended agenda into the question. I love the final question of Jesus's story of the unfit judge:
" And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:7,8
What is the real question(above), and is there an intentional agenda? Has God yet avenged your tribulations?
Is the OP involved in any intentional or unintentional agenda? I don't know. Why don't people just answer the question, and then see if the agenda comes out, instead of assuming an evil or manipulating agenda? | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/27/2008 11:39:19 AM |
That would be hard to do, almost an oxymoron. Someone who believes in Jesus (as an historical figure?) but does not insist you believe in their version of the truth, which to them is the only truth. You used a copy of my words so I feel compelled to reply against my better judgment. That ending, "so honestly, thank you" seemed so loaded with condemnation and miss interpretation. One could easily conclude you are baiting me for arguments sake when asking for one's "truth" vs. another. It saddens me that you viewed my words as bait for an argument...
Relative truth vs. absolute truth.... I see no 'vs'.. to me truth is BOTH relative and absolute. I have never understood how in recognizing and resonating with my own version of truth that this must necessarily exclude another's.. I thought that is what you were expressing with the portion of your message I quoted..
And I really needed the example since I have been judged recently by a christian I came to care about and wanted to remove the sour taste from my mouth... I saw your words and rejoiced. Too bad you saw that as my baiting you for an argument. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/27/2008 7:57:32 PM | | Basically Christ died for our sins because till before then we were alienated and separated by sin. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God they were instantly separated and cut off from relationship with the Father. So he sent Jesus to stand in our place for us so that we could come close to God and be saved again (reborn if you will). But God gives us a free will and we can choose to live our life devoted to him or turn our backs on Him and choose to live a life independantly from God. But thats where God's grace comes in, he never ever pushes himself onto anyone. He waits for us to return like the prodigal son did (New Testament). When he returned the father wasn't angry, instead he threw a party to celebrate the sons returning. That story to me is a perfect example of the Father's love for us :) | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/27/2008 10:37:00 PM |
Basically Christ died for our sins because till before then we were alienated and separated by sin. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God they were instantly separated and cut off from relationship with the Father.
What does this mean?
So he sent Jesus to stand in our place for us so that we could come close to God and be saved again (reborn if you will). But God gives us a free will and we can choose to live our life devoted to him or turn our backs on Him and choose to live a life independently from God. But thats where God's grace comes in, he never ever pushes himself onto anyone. He waits for us to return like the prodigal son did (New Testament). When he returned the father wasn't angry, instead he threw a party to celebrate the sons returning. That story to me is a perfect example of the Father's love for us :)
Uh-huh. This is contingent on the above and if people read through the first 5 pages they would see that this answer has been provided several times.
My question to the Christian who believes all of this is: What does this mean? The Christian myth holds together if you accept all of this as a given:
Sin separates you from God
Sacrifice heals the separation between God and man
(Where does this idea come from? Not the Jewish faith)
God in the form of Jesus provides the Ultimate One-time sacrifice
Where does this idea come from?
(Again, not the Jews, just the opposite is true)
What I want to know is, tangentially to the main question, why are the key differences in these theologies not taught to Christians who claim that their belief has pedigree in the belief of the Jews or a line of descent from it and its scriptures when clearly the Jewish belief system is so radically opposed to these key beliefs that hold the central precepts of Christian thought together? I know I wasn't taught them in Sunday School or Church and had to learn them on my own.
Is there a certain fear that the young believer might take a look at the two columns and see that they simply did not add up, one side to the other and say..."Uh...but this makes no sense Pastor Bob...why are we saying we believe this? Where do our beliefs come from...really? And don't BS me this time." | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/27/2008 10:40:24 PM | So... God creates man and woman... tells them to go name things, but doesn't let them know what right and wrong are... but tells them not to do something... but they don't know that to disobey is wrong... then they eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and find out that they did wrong, after the fact, and put clothes on because they realize they are naked...
And then God punishes them. To add to this, we should consider the fact that God also supposedly knows everything, past, present and future, according to Christian doctrine of pretty much every kind. So he put them into a situation he knew they would be compromised by, where they would have no ill intent, and didn't know what their actions would mean. Not to mention, he would have known the serpent was present and would talk them into it...
Isn't this kind of like leaving your kid in a room with an uncle who is noted for saying things like 'man, ants taste good' or other such things, in order to be funny in a cruel kind of way?
So my question would be, how can we really have original sin, considering the situation? As well, if God is all powerful, why did he have to kill his own son (or put him in a situation where he would die, if that makes you feel better) in order to fix it all? If he is all powerful, couldn't he have just forgiven us? Or does he have no control over certain cosmic rules of being?
OR was the whole Adam and Eve story meant to demonstrate how, over time, we adopted a moral code of right and wrong which made us subject to consequences that we could note and judge, and try to avoid to make life nicer for ourselves? And maybe this was misconstrued over time, and a bunch of people said 'yeah, we are evil, so you should give us money so we can tell you how to be good' which caused a very smart man (Jesus) to tell people that this idea was kind of out there, and if your heart was in the right place (all of his parables about doing right by others) then you would be okay. And then, because the group of people who were getting all that money saw the potential losses, and the following that was growing for Jesus, they ganged up and killed him in a horrible way, which he knew would happen because people are like that, as we see time and time again.
Makes a bit more sense to me that way. Doesn't say there is no God, it doesn't say that there was no Jesus, doesn't even leave us with some kind of idea that we are inherently evil for no logical reason, AND it states that we don't have to hand over money to the Church, or bow and scrape for our entire lives.
But people will believe what they want, I am sure. That is just my take on it, which is shaded by my own personal biases, which I am sure some great Christian will refute by saying something along the lines of 'God protects the scriptures because he cares about us, and keeps priests and clergymen from doing bad things'.
I will not sink so low as to make a horrific priest joke here.
Anywho, thanks for reading,
Lauchlin | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/27/2008 10:52:39 PM | | Jesus is God in human form God sent him self to earth as a sacrifice for the people of earth if he would suffer and die giving him self up to die with love for mankind every man if obeyed the will of God will be forgiven for there sins because Jesus already died for us so if we go to confession often and receive him in mass from one of his disciples (a Priest) then we shall not die but have eternal life. Amen | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/27/2008 11:04:09 PM | | if you don't try to over analyze this situation and look at it for what it is then you can over come the devil's tricks you have to have faith and believe look at the 3 crosses there where two men next to Jesus one on each side being crucified next to Jesus he told them if you believe in me you will not suffer in the after life one man did the other did not it was there choice | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/27/2008 11:18:00 PM |
Jesus is God in human form God sent him self to earth as a sacrifice for the people of earth if he would suffer and die giving him self up to die with love for mankind every man if obeyed the will of God will be forgiven for there sins because Jesus already died for us so if we go to confession often and receive him in mass from one of his disciples (a Priest) then we shall not die but have eternal life. Amen
...
if you don't try to over analyze this situation and look at it for what it is then you can over come the devil's tricks you have to have faith and believe look at the 3 crosses there where two men next to Jesus one on each side being crucified next to Jesus he told them if you believe in me you will not suffer in the after life one man did the other did not it was there choice
I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but if you have ANY experience with forum boards, the standard method of operation - and a lot of people miss this so don't worry - is to read all of the preceding messages to see if what you are about to post has already been mentioned a few dozen times already so that you can add something new to the conversation instead of beating a dead horse by just repeating the same thing over and over.
We've all got the part of the Bible story, at least aside of those rare few of us who have never been inside of a chapel before.
So what about the why's and wherefore's of it? Don't suppose you have any insight on that bit eh?
lmao!
If you don't try to analyze this situation (which I am assuming means don't think) then it will all make sense?
I am hoping that this is all that needs to be said...
I have a feeling that asking questions, or casting doubt is considered a "devil's trick"...like saying.... "Thou shalt not surely die?" from eating the fruit. *chuckle* Sorry but hollow death threats against questions asked on the forums is not an effective dodge...if you don't know the answer, you can just say so and no one will think the worse of you. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/27/2008 11:18:54 PM | If you don't try to analyze this situation (which I am assuming means don't think) then it will all make sense?
Yeah, Bra. Just drink the kool aid.
Take da red one, mon. Don't go near da blue. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/28/2008 7:51:09 AM | I laughed quite hard at this one - the sad thing is, this seems to be what they are telling people... take it for granted, don't think, just trust and believe, even though the ones that 'must be trusted' have already proven themselves flawed and weak, and not to be trusted.
But then, some people prefer the blue pill, and I would not fault them for that. As long as they do not disrespect me and my right to not believe in God, such beliefs have no effect on this life.
In truth, I would rather burn for eternity in Hell then take the side of a being that would have such high expectations of people, and yet couldn't even show its face once in a while. Not to mention that coercion is childish and stupid.
Lauchlin | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/28/2008 10:38:18 AM | | there is really nothing you can say to convince someone when they already made up there mind if you where pure evil you would die because you cant live without balance try it really deep down do it feel your self feel you spirit there is a whole world out there that you cant see and it is possible to have the best of both worlds in side of that dark there is light and in side the light there is dark look at the whole picture not just the new or old testament | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/28/2008 11:57:06 AM | This is a huge and important question and should be taken seriously, even by atheists who should be respectful of others' beliefs.
I have always been puzzled by this, too.
I do not think that Adam and Eve were actual people and my sense is that they are metaphors for something within all of us and embedded in human existence, as the cause of "sin". In other words, what makes us sin can be found in the tale of Adam and Eve.
Christ came and offered not only unconditional love but through caritas, a way to truly love as well as to love ourselves in the right way. Here was this incredible, gentle, humble man ... who washed the feet of lepers .... it doesnt sound like there was a bit of cruelty in him... yet the way he was treated, scourged, crucifed by the evil in people ....he certainly died because of our sins and the hate and meanness in people, but for our sins or from our sins? | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/28/2008 2:18:07 PM | Stefano makes a really good point.
Regardless of Jesus' reasons for seeing the whole process through to the end, perhaps the example we need to take from the whole thing is that through driving forces in the dark corners of our souls we can be moved to do horrific things to people, and that for the world to prosper, for peace to be possible, we need to recognize this fact, and strive to fight it.
I mean, Christ did drive people out of the temple for bringing their commerce into the house of god (if you look at the pictures in some illustrated bibles the picture is of him with a scourge). This is not what you would call a kind display. The sacrifice he made, however, as a symbol to mankind, should have a very deep impact, and is perhaps the greatest example of how dark mankind can be.
Lauchlin | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/29/2008 1:03:08 AM | As was expressed by someone else it's real hard sometimes to get he emotions right, behind the print which is why I said, "against my better judgement". Part of me thought I was becoming defensive when (as you clarified) no offense occured. And Mad Fiddler, I prefer honey mustard with that foot, but did my best to explain why I was explaining and hoped it would be "my bad" interpretation of her good will. But Sassy, if you were judged by a X-tian as most of us have been a time or two, remember their own teacher said, "judge not lest ye be judged". "Let he who is without sin, be the first to caste the stone". According to at least one source, "Sin" means "shut out from God". And judgement requires the use of "mind" and it's thoughts fueled with emotions. ie: the ego's work. We all have an ego as it is the layers of concepts and appearances that we (our minds) identify with to form an identity of individuality. The character Jesus much like the Buddah, taught (metaphysically) to abandon the ego and enter into a state of enlightenment (at-one-ment) with God and consequently with eachother. A state of pure consciousness. Be "the observer" of your thoughts and you will soon see the distinction. As bodies, we are in the world, but as "awareness" the world exists in us! Or as Jesus puts it, "I am in this world but not of it". "I in thee and thou in me". Unfortunately those who would judge us only took the time to learn a story about a guy who became a god and died so if you just accept this fable as a literal truth you get to go to heaven in the afterlife. kinda like the guys who judge us in expectation of getting 72 virgins except they get more extreme in their judgement and reactions to them. Anyway, I hope I kept the emotions in perspective. lol
Namaste' | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/29/2008 2:59:44 PM | One perspective on original sin is found in writings such as Daniel Quinn's Ishmael, and I learned about this theory also as a religion major in school.
There were once hunter gatherers who lived peacefully but were totally at the mercy of God for who lived and who died and when there was bad weather and they all died. When a rabbit prays to God to be safe and a Lion prays to God for a meal, which is the Good and which is the Evil outcome? Only God knows. We can't know.
Then people started taking more than they needed, storing it, and figuring out how to farm and raise animals. They then had the "knowledge of good and evil". In other words, they began to have power over who lives and who dies. They were seeking to be "like God" and have "God-like powers". This was bad, because they were not wise in their power. They became aggressive, seeking dominion over more and more land. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/29/2008 3:17:23 PM | "Please watch Zeitgeist movie on Google.
It shows exactly how Christianity came form the zodiac and astrology...The Son is The Sun...The 3 Kings are literally part of Orion's Belt..."
I was going to suggest this too. The very detailed story of Jesus' life is indeed written in the stars, and is shared by dozens of other figures through ancient history.
There are three possible explanations for this:
1. It's all just sun worship.
2. Jesus re-incarnated several times.
3. The story of Jesus is so basic to life on Earth that it is written in the stars and was foretold by inspiration at many many many different points in history.
There's a Christian guy on youtube that makes this last argument in detail. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/29/2008 4:31:52 PM | OK, now that I've read the entire 5 pages....
Here's my response to OP.
Christianity makes a lot of sense from the Vedic perspective. (Hinduism and Buddhism grew out of Vedic writings/philosophy. My background is more on the Hindu side. I'm sort of a Hindu and Jesus is my Guru.)
In Hinduism, God incarnates as men to teach and guide us.
In Hinduism, an enlightened master can burn off some of your karma for you and take it upon himself.
In Hinduism, you must have a covenant relationship with a spiritual teacher in order to burn off enough karma and learn to abandon ego enough to return to one-ness with God.
In Christianity, God incarnates as a man to teach and guide us.
In Christianity, Jesus, an enlightened master, teaches Vedic wisdom and the paths to one-ness with God, and chooses to take on the whole world's karma (the consequences of sin, the requirements of justice).
In Christianity, Jesus teaches us that you CANNOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven except through him. One interpretation of this is that he was saying that you cannot reach enlightenment and God-Consciousness or union with God without a teacher, and he was the teacher for that time.
Another interpretation is that when he said, "I AM 'the way', I AM 'the Light', no one can come into the kingdom of Heaven except through 'THE WAY", and "THE WAY" is not to simply believe but to BE light. "
As for original sin, I know it makes those of us who have been hurt and judged by Christians want to puke, because it's not a helpful idea that we are basically bad. But I don't think that anyone can argue that there seems to be a duality going on here. Within humanity there seems to be this massively wonderful potential for beauty and love, and we can intuitively feel the vastness and goodness inside ourselves. On the other hand, there is clearly potential for such human bad-ness that we can't stand even to be aware of it in doses too big. We get PTSD if we're exposed to too much of it. On either end of the spectrum, good and bad, it's hard to take it all in, it's so much. What is this all about?
It seems to me that every religion, psychology, self help program, philosophy, is trying to deal with this basic difference between what we seem to be capable of and yet what we keep sinking to. It's Paul's old question, "Why do I keep doing the things I set out not to do?"
I see the basic path we are on as seeking to be better. I see this as literally raising the frequency of our vibrations to be more light. Ultimately, we can attain God-Consciousness, or one-ness with God. This may sound like New Age jargon, and it may in fact be bad science, but if it is, I don't know it. I do believe this to be the literal truth.
We are on a journey. We are in need of divine assistance. If you have observed that thoughts are powerful and real forces, then you must take notice of the Sermon on the Mount. If you observe the law of Karma, or the law of Justice, and you see that even your thoughts put out negativity into the world, then the idea of us needing help becomes less repugnant.
Christianity has unfortunately been hijacked a time or two and re-designed to control and oppress people. The biggest tragedy of this may be that the Spiritual Principles contained in it have become repugnant to thinking people who feel their innate dignity and will not submit to oppressive notions.
For me, it's so, so clear:
We are on a journey.
We could use some help if we're really honest with ourselves about how far from perfect light we are.
Jesus offered, in the tradition of many before him, to come in the flesh and take on and burn off some major karma. This is no more strange than an energy healer who heals you but gets sick herself, but has the spiritual mastery to cleanse it out of her system faster than you could have.
Jesus said that he could do this for the whole world, and he bled from every pore in the Garden of Gethsemene, so he surely was doing some major suffering.
Do we still have to work to purify ourselves? Clearly.
The story of Jesus is in the stars and in many many other figures in history, so whatever the story is, sun worship or Isha/Jesus/Jehova being a central figure in the world, it is clearly a pattern that holds great significance.
Even if the only way you can feel patient with Christians is to think of them as engaging in ancient sun worship, the story (the wise men, the guiding star, the three days of darkness, the rising again, etc, etc, etc, etc) has great primal resonance with us, because we intuitively feel the cycle of the sun, the three darkest days, and the resurrection of the sun into longer days in the spring.
I happen to have had a born again Christian experience and choose to place my faith in the covenant relationship I made with Jesus, my personal spiritual master. But the bottom line for me is that if we think we have the "one right way", we are moving in the wrong direction.
If anyone hates Christians because of their intolerance, I say, if you value tolerance, you have to be tolerant even of intolerance. Surely you can understand where it comes from. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 7/29/2008 4:44:25 PM | Afraid I cannot agree with you on the Sun worship theory. Their are metaphors and allegoric lessons throughout creation. They all point us to the son of God as our salvation.
When man was created he was flawless. Adam was the first perfect man. By his own free will he chose to dishonor God and followed Lucifer's example and said I will be as God.
The enemy of Gods will in our lives can be found as we look in the mirror , and also in spiritual darkness as well.
Self is our worst enemy. Selfishness is the nature of fallen man. The message Christ brought to a dying world was a message of repentance first and foremost. In order to be saved a person must first see the need for salvation. Yes Christ was the second Adam.
Where Adam failed he did not. He did not give into temptation theirfore his giving of himself for a lost and dying world as the only perfect possible sacrifice was first a physical sacrifice that washed away the sins of all who will come to him seeking forgiveness. But lets talk about what the life of Jesus really shows us. | |
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| Jesus died for our sins, can someone explain this?
Posted: 8/2/2008 11:48:57 AM | | It seems much of the debate is based in beliefs and interpretations of the written word. For the devout religious people it is apparent that they view the Bible as Sacred, Holy and the flawless word of God. As a spiritual student devoid of dogma the parallels to sun worship are clear but if the scriptures are their only reference point then the X-tians will argue that the devil is playing games of trickery. So I would like to offer FACTS that any intelligent (not superstitious) X-tian, scientist or biblical scholar can research and confirm. There has been no historical evidence of Jesus' existence in 2000 years of archeological research. There is evidence that the pagans (sun worshippers) had the same deity, son of god, born of a virgin on December 25, died on easter through crucifixion, resurrects on the third day to save the world through rights of baptism, rasies the dead, turns water to wine etc...thousands of years before Jesus was to have lived. Jewish historians of the time (when Jesus was to have existed) kept very dilligent records of Pontius Pilate, criminals and many relative events and nothing mentions Jesus by any name. The Pagans throughout the world had, Egypt-Osiris, Greece-Dionysis,Syria-Adonis, Asia Minor-Atis, Mesopotamia-marduk,Persia-Mithras, Judea-Baal and the Gnostic Christians created Jesus. the Literalist church later took this and with it's political agenda insisted people believe this savior was different because he really lived in the flesh. Forget all the divine wisdom that could free you from your emotional suffering. Believe he lived in the flesh or be banished from town. People were exiled and killed for trying to keep the original context in perspective. Every major religion began with mystics who incorporated the greatest of teachings into assimilatable stories so we could grasp the message. But as their followers grew in number the wise and holiest of these teachers began to get replaced by literal minded followers who much like Jim Jones, developed a god-complex. He killed hundreds, they have led millions to battle. I won't go there for I released my ego's hatred for this historical nightmare but the literalists today still cling to superstitious beliefs because they limit there study to one Un-holy book because it still contains great wisdon littered throughout it pages. It once was illegal to own a copy of the Bible. Why? It was clear that intelligent minded folk would eventually discern the inconsistencies and the priesthood would lose control. The good news for Christians is that Jesus' sermons still have the power to set you free. His word is made flesh by understanding what his messages are trying to convey. Not arguing if he really lived. That's superstition. And this isn't my opinion. It's facts mostly, documented by biblical scholars and scientists and historians if you'll only do the research. I have a ton more to add but this rant has gone on long enough. | |
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