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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 9:40:31 AM | ^^^And they're many that have successfully used the Armed Forces to rehabilitate themselves...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_Lee_Ermey | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 9:45:21 AM |
Please stop spinning what I'm writing.
I'm not spinning what you are writing. I'm disagreeing with your argument that Don't Ask Don't Tell isn't a discriminatory and bigoted policy. That's not spinning, it's contesting. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 9:45:42 AM | | My son Rob comes home from Iraq on my birthday, July 24. I guess he would be excluded from service under some standards. He got his high school girlfriend pregnant, was willing to marry her but she was looking for a better deal, someone from a richer family. Her mother let the baby wander unsupervised, and when Rob came to their house he scooped up the child and brought her home to our house. This happened while I myself was overseas in Somalia in 1993. The police arrested Rob and charged him with child endangerment. It took some waivers to get him into the service and 15 years later he still has a hard time getting some jobs like recruiting duty. Personally, I think military service was and is the savior for some troubled young people myself included...I needed a waiver for a DUI to get in and that was 1976. I wonder why my uncle and my dad who served in WWII, my dad as a Marine in Guadalcanal, Saipan and Iwo Jima and my uncle as an army paratrooper in Africa, Sicily and the Battle of the Bulge, never suffered from PTSD of any kind I knew of. Maybe they did and were more withdrawn than today's touchy-feely folks. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 11:38:29 PM | | well, I guess that 'straight' men should not be able to talk about their sexuality either. Talk should only be centered around their jobs. So I am assuming that straight men never talk about women, etc. right? | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/14/2008 11:45:24 PM | eee04U,
It is evident that you and your family have served you nation with distinction over many years and through many conflicts. Not only being prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice for your country but evidently for the peoples of other nations too. For that I and every other person enjoying the freedoms we have today owe you and your family a debt of gratitude which is difficult to convey in words but is engraved in our hearts. Thank you.
However, that none of your family suffered pyscological trauma as a result is something you can consider yourselves fortunate for. During the first world war, many soldiers were shot for cowardice after suffering shell shock trauma and it is only in recent years that this has been recognised and their executions deemed wrong and postumous apologies made to their families.
During the second world war my Grandfather, who fought from the first engagements in France and Dunkirk, North Africa and several other places, right through to the last battles of liberation suffered upon his return to such a degree that until his dying day he was troubled by what he had seen and done and would not speak of it save but to tell me that with all that I am, I must never allow such things to happen again if it was in my power to do so.
It is also true, I believe, that more soldiers died from committing suicide after returning home from Vietnam than were killed in combat there. British soldiers who fought like lions in Northern Ireland, The Falklands, Bosnia, Gulf War I and now the current conflict suffer from PTSD and that is also a fact. It does not make them less brave or touchy-feely, it makes them good decent and brave people who have suffered from the horrors they have witnessed and we should heed their cries for help. Were they to be immune to such things, it would in my opinion, give cause for some concern.
I am pleased that you and your family have come out of these conflicts relatively unscathed, but that is not true for all serving soldiers and we are beholden to acknowledge what has happened to them, to offer them support and councelling upon their return and more importantly to work together towards peace and eliminating the need for anyone to run the risk of such things in the future.
You have my utmost respect for your service. Peace | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/15/2008 2:39:00 AM |
The seriously mentally ill and criminals should NOT be soldiers or be qualified to serve in the military. We should not be letting criminals and the mentally ill serve, while perfectly qualified gay and lesbian soldiers are being kicked out for being born with a different sexual orientation than the majority! These folks WANT to serve, and are otherwise qualified. They should be allowed to serve and not have to hide who they are.
As was once said, do unto others, if gays and lesbians can serve, so can ex-cons as it's only fitting that it be allowed. I do somewhat agree with your statement, though, as the mentally ill may be exploited like illegal immigrants have when it comes to jobs. Also, I feel that it's time to erase this "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy when there are willing (and qualified) gays/lesbians that wish to do their part.
Our military also represents our country when they are in other parts of the world. Criminals in particular do not make our country look good, and we can look to Bush and its minions to see why those thugs should not have been allowed to be elected. Bush was an AWOL coward and had a criminal record. I believe that no one who has a criminal record should be allowed to become Commander in Chief, let alone be allowed to serve.
On this note, I vehemently dislike this point of view, as I see this way: our military does represent people from all walks of life, INCLUDING those who've made mistakes in their lives. It represents those who wish to make things better for themselves as well as others so that all involved may prosper. Your viewpoint is actually the type of rhetoric that my folks (the Conservatives) would spew out. This is why I'm glad that things like the Second Chance Act* are in place for ex-cons.
NOTE: The Second Chance Act allows ex-cons to have their records expunged after meeting certain criteria. More in-depth information can be read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chance_Act | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/15/2008 4:40:01 AM |
It would appear that our military has gotten so desperate that it has reverted to using the worst elements of society to bolster it's numbers. I suppose the point of this thread is to suggest that our military is inept, irresponsible and should be stopped.
Yes, the military is getting desperate to hand out so many waivers for criminals and mental cases but this is just a fraction of the soldiers and I am in no way attempting to discredit good soldiers.
I've know way too many good soldiers that left the military because they had to work with idiots like this. Bad soldiers ruin the morale for everyone and keeping them in, will just make our military work harder because in addition to training them to be soldiers they need to be rehabilitators as well and they are not trained to rehabilitate.
When someone commits a crime and is convicted, we expect them to pay for it, giving defendants the choice to join the military or go to jail cannot make for a soldier that is motivated like those that are motivated by patriotism. Some of these soldiers have been convicted of home invasions, armed robbery, violent assaults and have demonstrated they lack concern for their fellow humans and I would not want to sleep in the same tent as them. One of the examples I've given cannot own a firearm in the states but the army gave him a rifle anyway.
Some criminals can be rehabilitated but that should be the job of someone other than the military. Some rehabilitated in a system should be allowed to get waivers to join the service if they want but only AFTER they've paid their debt and only when we can be assured they have actually been rehabilitated.
I would rather see a fair draft system reinstated where the rich and poor have to go and we wouldn't be required to rehabilitate the low life criminals and the mentally unstable. Not like they did during Viet Nam where they lowered to IQ requirements of recruits to 60 so the rich and/or intelligent could get deferments.
My father went to a prestigious university and graduated with honors. When WWII started, he recruited his friends to sign up for service because he didn't want stupid people leading the military. He figured that we would loose that war if dummies were planning how to win. When the recruiting standards were lowered for Viet Nam, he predicted we would fail and he was right.
Now we have a comander in chief that was the first President elected with a criminal record and demonstrated he has no respect for the military by his own actions of going AWOL. His bullie tactics shows he knows how to start a fight and he doesn't know how to end it. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/15/2008 7:52:25 AM |
Yes, the military is getting desperate to hand out so many waivers for criminals and mental cases but this is just a fraction of the soldiers and I am in no way attempting to discredit good soldiers.
I've know way too many good soldiers that left the military because they had to work with idiots like this. Bad soldiers ruin the morale for everyone and keeping them in, will just make our military work harder because in addition to training them to be soldiers they need to be rehabilitators as well and they are not trained to rehabilitate.
When someone commits a crime and is convicted, we expect them to pay for it, giving defendants the choice to join the military or go to jail cannot make for a soldier that is motivated like those that are motivated by patriotism. Some of these soldiers have been convicted of home invasions, armed robbery, violent assaults and have demonstrated they lack concern for their fellow humans and I would not want to sleep in the same tent as them. One of the examples I've given cannot own a firearm in the states but the army gave him a rifle anyway.
Some criminals can be rehabilitated but that should be the job of someone other than the military. Some rehabilitated in a system should be allowed to get waivers to join the service if they want but only AFTER they've paid their debt and only when we can be assured they have actually been rehabilitated.
I would rather see a fair draft system reinstated where the rich and poor have to go and we wouldn't be required to rehabilitate the low life criminals and the mentally unstable. Not like they did during Viet Nam where they lowered to IQ requirements of recruits to 60 so the rich and/or intelligent could get deferments.
My father went to a prestigious university and graduated with honors. When WWII started, he recruited his friends to sign up for service because he didn't want stupid people leading the military. He figured that we would loose that war if dummies were planning how to win. When the recruiting standards were lowered for Viet Nam, he predicted we would fail and he was right.
Now we have a comander in chief that was the first President elected with a criminal record and demonstrated he has no respect for the military by his own actions of going AWOL. His bullie tactics shows he knows how to start a fight and he doesn't know how to end it.
^^^
1. Because some kid makes a stupid decision doesn't make him a criminal. You act like every person ever arrested is some heinous criminal that should be barred from Military Service. If the Military only recruited 'angel's', honor-students, and die-hard patriots...well, it wouldn't be very big.
2. Lack of concern for their fellow human beings? Yeah, they're soldiers, they're taught that.
3. A draft? Conscripted armies perform poorly and traditionally suffer from low-morale. No one wants a draft, not even the top-brass in the military.
4. Your father sounds like a pompous-prick. "Well I attended a Prestigious University, I better enlist so all these 'stupid-peasants' don't make us lose the war."
5. Our Military wasn't the problem in Vietnam...
5. Using the Military as a form of rehabilitation is VERY, VERY, VERY old - you act like its a recent development and another reason to hate Bush.
6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_%28public_relations%29 - Read it, stop doing it. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/15/2008 8:39:13 AM | 1. Because some kid makes a stupid decision doesn't make him a criminal. You act like every person ever arrested is some heinous criminal that should be barred from Military Service. If the Military only recruited 'angel's', honor-students, and die-hard patriots...well, it wouldn't be very big.
When a kid makes a stupid decision to get a gun and invade someone's home, get's convicted and is not allowed to carry a gun, I don't want that kid being allowed to carry weapons or be given a waiver to carry a weapon by the military.
Now if that kid stole some food because he was hungry, that's a different story. Maybe you wouldn't mind going on patrol to an active war zone with a crew of felons and drug addicts but you should realize they might frag you when you give them an order they don't like.
2. Lack of concern for their fellow human beings? Yeah, they're soldiers, they're taught that.
That is one of the most idiotic statements I've heard yet.
3. A draft? Conscripted armies perform poorly and traditionally suffer from low-morale. No one wants a draft, not even the top-brass in the military.
Except WWII where a drafted army took out hitler. I suggested a fair draft where there are no waivers for the rich to weasel out of.
4. Your father sounds like a pompous-prick. "Well I attended a Prestigious University, I better enlist so all these 'stupid-peasants' don't make us lose the war."
I figured that it would be obvious that my dad's friends were from the universety he attended and he was concerned about those 'stupid peasants', as you call them, not being able to do the math required to navigate the bombers to the targets, so he talked his university buddies into doing that math as they were trained to.
I'd say only a pompous prick would call his actions as that of a pompous prick.
5. Using the Military as a form of rehabilitation is VERY, VERY, VERY old - you act like its a recent development and another reason to hate Bush.
Yea old and still a stupid idea. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/15/2008 8:48:28 AM |
That is one of the most idiotic statements I've heard yet.
You clearly have no knowledge of BootCamp / BasicTraining...
Except WWII where a drafted army took out hitler
Can you simplify WW2 any more please?
I'd say only a pompous prick would call his actions as that of a pompous prick.
A desperate attempt to sound philosophical?
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/15/2008 8:58:02 AM | Many of the rehabilitative programs in the US are modeled after principals utilized by the military. ( Boot camp programs for one)
We expect convicted criminals to repay their debt to society. Military service provides an opportunity for them to do just that.
The attempt to provide an opportunity for individuals living on the edge of society to re enter the mainstream as productive citizens is basically a liberal progressive concept. So is it now fashionable to say that convicted criminals and people with a mental illness or drug problem should be excluded from positions that may have some impact on society as a whole ? Is the left now promoting bias and prejudice ?
It's been my observation and perhaps others would agree that people who 'choose' to do something tend to function better than those who do not. Considering this concept suggests to me that a military composed of willing participants is superior to one where participants are forced via draft.
As far as judgemental statements about our President are concerned consider where you'd be if your own past was used to judge you in the present. Perhaps whatever position you currently hold in life should not rightfully be yours because of your past discressions. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/15/2008 10:34:37 AM |
However they also they've allowed 1492 with serious fellony convictions and 2122 drug addicts and alcoholics get these waivers to join the military.
This is stated from the original posting, which the question from the OP seems to be should someone with serious felonies be placed in military service. It seems like we need to know what these serious felonies are, especially if it is the difference between serving time in jail, verses freedom.
Are these felonies for Rape, Murder?
Do we want serious drug addicts jonesing on the battle field?
If it is for selling drugs, pot in particular, I can see where a waver is in order. I have chatted with someone that sold drugs to Hollywoods finiest and was busted for the pot he was delivering. 5 yrs hard time in the state pen, I am sure he would have gladly signed up, because he wasn't using his product, just selling it to legal aged adults.
It's been my observation and perhaps others would agree that people who 'choose' to do something tend to function better than those who do not That is an interesting thought, and or concept. What if it is murders that they place out there, perhaps they maybe doing their job way to well, and any civilian that was murdered for kicks over there, got brushed away as an acceptable necessary casualty.
From this post, we don't know what kind of serious felons are out on the battle field, and frankly that is probably what is seen as the disturbing factor. THe OP said he's done his research, and if we want to know more, we can do it ourselves. Would be nice if he shared the info, but whatever.
Everything has a double edged sword it would seem. For some it may be rehab, for someone that is already mentally desturbed, I hardly see it as something that will benefit a fractured mind.
I have met a person that was "mentally disturbed", that actually served in "desert storm", he was a loose canon waiting to happen. His greatest joy was being able to kill people legally, and enjoyed every bit of it.
I have to wonder, is that the kind of person those who think this is a good idea to be an example of our finest???? | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/15/2008 10:45:25 AM |
Are these felonies for Rape, Murder?
No. Rape and Murder are the only crimes that cannot be waived - an individual with a conviction of Rape or Murder will never be eligible for military service. With that said, its important to note that just because a crime CAN BE waived...doesn't mean that it will be.
When I enlisted I had to get 2 convictions of Assault & Battery waived - I did, and was very lucky to get them waived. That same day 2 guys who had stuff not as serious as mine didn't get their waivers. The reason? I dont know. Probably because I collected over 10 character-references from teachers, past-employers, and even 1 from 1 of the arresting police-officers and I had a 94 ASVAB score - my guess is they didn't have either good character-references or a good ASVAB.
His greatest joy was being able to kill people legally, and enjoyed every bit of it.
Yeah...thats kinda taught. Most people would never in a million years believe what goes on at BootCamp / BasicTraining. Just be thankful they're on our side.
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/15/2008 11:25:00 AM | Mental illness is a pretty broad term as is felony conviction.
I seriously doubt that anyone who hears voices or cannot negotiate getting out of bed and someone with no ability to follow direction who only wants to rape or murder would make it through basic training. It's not like the military is taking people out of jails and mental hospitals, giving them a gun and sending them to the battlefield. There is a proceedure which includes the ability to demonstrate the necessary skills required to be a soldier. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/15/2008 11:38:29 AM |
No. Rape and Murder are the only crimes that cannot be waived - an individual with a conviction of Rape or Murder will never be eligible for military service. With that said, its important to note that just because a crime CAN BE waived...doesn't mean that it will be.
Except for Army Spc. Shane Gonyon who the national gaurd let in for a 2nd time with out the Guard checking to see that he lied on his application the 2nd time around.
When I enlisted I had to get 2 convictions of Assault & Battery waived - I did, and was very lucky to get them waived. That same day 2 guys who had stuff not as serious as mine didn't get their waivers. The reason? I dont know. Probably because I collected over 10 character-references from teachers, past-employers, and even 1 from 1 of the arresting police-officers and I had a 94 ASVAB score - my guess is they didn't have either good character-references or a good ASVAB.
I could have predicted why you are defending felons in the military then.
Kill My Father, Drown My Mother, Bury My Enemies 6 Feet Under
Yea, we all want the mentally disturbed learning chants like this don't we?
Then send them home to us with the training to back it up.
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/15/2008 9:26:40 PM | | If a man has done his time, paid his debt, and decides he wants to get his life together and thinks the military is just the kick in the butt he needs to do it, more power to him. If the military is willing to give him a chance, when so many in the private sector won't, well I say thank God for the military. I'm sure there are some members of the armed forces that that are just bad eggs, ones that have records, and ones that don't, because the military does have a broad cross section of people, but I'm sure the military police are every bit as capable of dealing with it probably more so than the regular police. At least these people will have to opportunity to learn responsibility, team work, honor which are all pounded in to their heads during basic training, or at least that's what my son who graduated boot camp in January has told me. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/16/2008 4:03:25 PM | | I can't say that no one in my family suffered psychological trauma as a result of war...the only thing my dad said about Guadalcanal was when he saw a picture in Life Magazine of what our soldiers were eating, like roast chicken, he said that everything else be damned, if there had been 20 pounds of roast chicken on Guadalcanal the Marines and the Japanese would have stopped any organized marching on objectives to fight over the food. I know in my own case, I never felt more alive than when I was standing in the door of a C-130 preparing to jump onto a potentially hot DZ. I have suffered I guess psychological trauma, but death on the battlefield didn't worry me as much as losing my home, or my vehicle, or having no money for food, or being a day late on one credit card and four more companies being able to jack my rate up to 22% because of it... | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/21/2008 9:04:46 AM | | I think it would be a very bad idea to let the mentally ill become frontline soldiers. War causes extreme mental stress and even in healthy soldiers, it can lead to a variety of mental conditions, including post-traumatic stress disorder. If someone had an existing or underlying mental health condition, going into a war zone could make the existing condition much worse, or trigger an illness where the risk of one exists. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/21/2008 9:21:52 AM | It never ceases to amaze me how folks will believe anything that is regurgitated from flapping lips yet call me delusional for believing in a God.
Half of this thread is nothing but exaggerated half-truths, misinterpretations and "look at me, I know how to slam the US government, aren't I pretty?" crap.
*shakes head* | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/21/2008 10:09:12 AM | OP if your opening statement is correct then IMO mesg 14 (Paumanok) sums it up nicely
The kind of representation is in this case that of occupying a country and terrorizing its people. I think we should send nobody else but our worst offenders and of course the mentally ill, because that suits the work perfectly. I mean, if we are going to go around invading countries, oppressing people, ruling by the use of violence, might as well do it right with the best thugs we can get and the most feeble minded and unbalanced types who can more easily commit their charge. Besides, the army has traditions and this is one of them going way back..
Why keep the criminals at home and pay for their keep doing nothing, they are a renewable resource?
Why send normal healthy and productive people to get killed or return mentally damaged?
The French foreign legion has an impeccable record of success, need one say more?
What is the difference between criminal violence and state sanctioned violence? Nothing, innocent people get hurt or killed.
Perhaps all governments should consider to sentence criminals to serve in the military and we will save billions of revenues. Besides good military training and discipline will be more than adequate to deal internally with further criminal acts, recovery from substance abuse etc. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/21/2008 10:46:40 AM | The French Foreign Legion, the First Special Service Force or Devil's Brigade...many great and valiant military formations sprung from the ranks of the undisciplined or clearly criminal. Give them something to fight for and a chance to wipe the slate clean...and once they earn their "spurs" the people they are fighting alongside respect them as equals.
The purpose of a military formation is to hurt people and break things...we have the Peace Corps to win hearts and minds. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/21/2008 10:51:58 AM | Shades of Vietnam, where people say the US military was in an outright mutiny from about 1970 to 1972. In 1968, over 300 officers were murdered by their own men... and a huge amount of soldiers were addicted to heroin... and reenlisted for the reason that it was one of the EASIEST PLACES TO GET HEROIN ON THE WHOLE PLANET.
GO FIGURE... | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/21/2008 11:00:45 AM |
The French Foreign Legion, the First Special Service Force or Devil's Brigade...many great and valiant military formations sprung from the ranks of the undisciplined or clearly criminal. Give them something to fight for and a chance to wipe the slate clean...and once they earn their "spurs" the people they are fighting alongside respect them as equals.
As a former Legionnaire I resent that statement........................
As true as it is! | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/21/2008 11:48:11 AM | | Does the US Military have a massive drinking party every December 7th to celebrate Pearl Harbor? Well as a graduate of French Foreign Legion commando school in Trier, Germany, I know that the FFL celebrates the battle of Camerone, where they were wiped out to a man by the forces of Benito Juarez while attempting to prop up the government of corrupt Emperor Maximilian of Mexico and his wife the mad Empress Carlotta...or maybe the US Army needs to have a huge drinking party on the anniversary of My Lai...but then again the French don't have much to celebrate militarily, at least the Legion didn't turn and run... | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/21/2008 12:27:22 PM | | all true and I am impressed by your recount... And in defense of the man on the ground, I would say to any U.S. military personel, stay alive. And I mean by any means nessasary. Of course this does not mean I, or they, have to be inline with the policy. I would also like to belive we are above what France was up to at that time, which was empire building. And it is no accident that Ron Paul was by $ count the most popular among the military. This cant be seen in terms of a****measuring contest. Leaving the middle east and returning home to consentrate on securing our borders, building up a sound economy, returning the power to the people, and most importantly, gaining the confidance of the people in the government. We are so scattered as a people now we dont even know who we are. 12 million illeagal people ARE HERE RIGHT NOW and what message do we get from the two candidates? ONE LAW FOR THEM, AND ANOTHER LAW FOR US. We get a Clinton who's charachter as a leader is just repugnanat only because he lied. But what message does that send to the youth? We then get a spoiled little rich brat who even if his intel was wrong, kept commiting the crime. You cant say, well it was bad intel and keep going down the wrong path. What message does that send? Hey, you robbed one bank, may as well rob them until you have enough money or get caught. We need to fix our nation first, full shift of focus. But were not, we are just going to keep creating the tyranical beast. I dont know how in the world a judeo christian who is always looking for the beast cannot see which government best represents the charachteristics of " The Beast". The problem is in Americas mirror. Restore the Republic and regain our dignity at any cost. | |
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