| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/21/2008 1:51:49 PM |
or maybe the US Army needs to have a huge drinking party on the anniversary of My Lai...but then again the French don't have much to celebrate militarily, at least the Legion didn't turn and run...
US military discipline and stamina went lost when the last of the Hessen and Prussian armies faded into history. What remains of it is little more than Hollywood fiction to keep a very misguided and perhaps somewhat naive population maintain patriotism and support invasions of sovereign foreign nations to secure imperialistic interests...lol | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/21/2008 4:08:57 PM | Hmmm...so the U.S. Army hasn't been worth a you-know-what since the American Revolution? That was the last time we faced the Hessians; don't know if we ever fought the Prussians, but we beat the GERMANS twice...
And as for discipline and stamina, post anti-German wars...see the story of Major James N. Rowe, captured by the Vietcong who remained alive and fit enough to escape after 5 years in captivity during which he had been promoted twice and was a Major at the age of 29... | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/21/2008 6:26:39 PM | sorry^^^^ you are slightly wrong,
Hessians and Prussians where imported to the US actually even before the revolution
as for the Germans defeat by US military, both times the US was but a fraction of the defeating forces, hence they were called the Allies. As for the great defeat in military terms it was mass murder of about 25 million women and children who perished in carpet bombing attack of most German cities indeed a proud military accomplishment.
Major James N. Rowe, lol one in 300 million ..let's not go there, but perhaps you may like to read "The Gulag Archipelago 3 books by Aleksander Solzenitsyn"
Patriotism is a great political tool to breed fools.
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/22/2008 10:56:59 AM | Well I'm sorry about what happened to those who voted in droves for Hitler...maybe he wouldn't have been elected except for the Treaty of Versailles and non-American jerks like Lloyd George and Clemenceau extracting their pound of flesh from the upstart Hun. And of course they were all horrified about what happened to the poor Jews, not to mention the Gypsies and the Catholic and Protestant clergy who died in Hitler's death camps. It's called WAR, it's not a swordfight between Heidelberg cadets and Sandhurst cadets. We've always fought dirty, ask the British in the Revolution...our "peasants" or "serfs" were the backbone of our country and not to be wasted by being dressed up in pretty red coats and marched into volley fire, they took cover and fought smart. And as for the Allies...the British left all their best equipment on the beach at Dunkirk and Lend-Lease from us was needed to replenish them, which also helped the Russians. And as for the French, they were so busy fighting between Giraudists and Gaullists and who had what right, that is those who didn't join Vichy and fight alongside Hitler...
Call me a fool I am a patriot and will be until I take the dirt nap...
And Nick Rowe, tragically ambushed by Philippine terrorists before he could make an even greater contribution to this nation, was one of many. What about Barry Sadler, author of "Ballad of the Green Berets", tragically ambushed in Central America?
How about Bull Simons, leader of the Son Tay Raid who successfully evacuated the EDS employees in the wake of the ayatollah's takeover in Iran? And how about the profane, arrogant, swaggering and magnificently effective retired SEAL, Richard Marcinko? I can hardly place myself in such exalted company, but these are real fighting men, real Americans, real heroes, not Hollywood wannabes... | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/22/2008 12:44:18 PM | K, my forum friend, thanks for the quick history of war account and its heroes...remember most of those are the dead guys
there are some who like killing of the innocent for whatever agenda of others purposes and there are those who got caught up to part take (involuntarily) and survived taking the experience and have taken a pacifist's view.
Back to the topic, as mentioned in previous posts, if there is to be a military force it may as well be made up of otherwise disposable persons like criminals. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/22/2008 1:05:28 PM | | I refuse to see myself, my sons, my father and my uncle as disposable pawns. I have never seen where you gain much by surrender unless maybe like Japan you get to be an industrial power while having another nation sacrifice itself to protect you (I still think that with their long-term thinking they're getting revenge...) | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/22/2008 1:32:46 PM |
I refuse to see myself, my sons, my father and my uncle as disposable pawns.
Unless you're the president, you are a disposable pawn. Plame was disposable Powell was disposable Libby was disposable and hundreds of thousands dead people were disposable as a means to win control of the oil fields.
However, this thread is about how one would feel when serving alongside a criminal felons or someone that is mentally disturbed.
Is it fair to the majority of good soldiers that don't need waivers.? | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/22/2008 3:24:26 PM | As long as that person carried his/her weight in combat and behaved as honorably as possible under fire, I could care less what his/her pre-enlistment background was. Now if they raped and tortured and stole while in uniform, a long period of making big rocks into little ones or even "death by hanging" would be in order.
And I wish I was the kind of "pawn" that merited a set for life book deal without having to actually write something like your examples. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/22/2008 4:19:05 PM |
The seriously mentally ill and criminals should NOT be soldiers or be qualified to serve in the military.
why not?
we've got them in the white house. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/22/2008 8:45:07 PM | I believe that the question originally posed, was this person convicted for rape before entry into the Army.
I was an Air Force recruiter for over 20 years and I know that there are exceptions given by all branches, but they are very rare and well document in the process. I think the true test would be to find the stats on those allowed in with a wavier for felony convictions and compare that to their service while in.
As for the mental issues again the process for those requires extensive testing and review by the chief medical surgeon generals staff prior to approval.
From my experience, most recruiters would not take the time in both of these issues, an merely dismiss the applicant as unqualified. If the applicant asked for the waiver however, they are required to guide the applicant through the process. Most of those types of waivers are disapproved, because they are not endorsed by the recruiter nor its chain of command. Of those I recall in my pas that would be approved that did not stand on their own merit most of them were done to appease congressional membership.
Making a broadcast belief that they are not entitled because of their past is just one more glorified example of the un forgiveness of American standards. I dare say that there is someone on this forum that has not committed a crime based on the law books even if they were not discovered and persecuted.
As for the side bar comments about Gay rights. There remains a fact that the country, IE; " WE the PEOPLE" are clearly divided, on the subject matter and since many believe this country was founded on a biblical perspective. That although the majority are not practicing their religious views, they still claim a church belief system, Gay marriage and Gays actions, although tolerated like some religions in the 17 hundreds, are still not embraced by their countrymen. That is not to say they as a person are not welcome but merely their lifestyle action are frowned upon. I suppose that could be turned around once someone figured out how to remove the parts in the Bible on Sodom
and Gomorrah. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/22/2008 8:57:02 PM | BY FAR one of the BEST examples I've yet to see out here of someone presenting a skewed assessment of a very minor possible aspect of our great military. If the OP had ever emphatically said anything good about our military, the original post would not be suspect. But it's clearly an assassination piece.
My question, in return, would be, "Which would you prefer? A comparatively small number of bad soldiers in the military allegedly due to waivers; or, would you prefer a large number of terrorists slitting you and your family's throats?"
Take your pick.
It is certainly ok to question and debate military practices but when you present them the way the O.P. did, then you obviously have a, cough, axe to grind....
BEWARE people with axes to grind... their propagandizing makes them worse then those whom they highlight.  | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/23/2008 2:29:51 AM |
It is certainly ok to question and debate military practices but when you present them the way the O.P. did, then you obviously have a, cough, axe to grind....
BEWARE people with axes to grind... their propagandizing makes them worse then those whom they highlight.
The only axe I would have is military pay scales. If we took the money paid to mercinaries and private war contractors, we could afford to triple those salaries and maybe send them kevlar on time. Maybe give them a college education BEFORE sending them to active service. That would attract many more recruits and it would no longer be necessary to give as many waivers.
From my experience, most recruiters would not take the time in both of these issues, an merely dismiss the applicant as unqualified. If the applicant asked for the waiver however, they are required to guide the applicant through the process. Most of those types of waivers are disapproved, because they are not endorsed by the recruiter nor its chain of command. Of those I recall in my pas that would be approved that did not stand on their own merit most of them were done to appease congressional membership.
Thanks for your input.
I suspect the majority of recruiters expeirence this.
However they also they've allowed 1492 with serious fellony convictions and 2122 drug addicts and alcoholics get these waivers to join the military.
(from my opening post)
It is these types of waivers I'm questioning. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 7/23/2008 6:56:56 AM | | A college education before military service...hmmm...we need Indians as well as chiefs...that is one sorting out factor for commissioned officers. Now in the Israeli army they seem to work this thing out possibly because of universal service (and I'm not advocating the draft) but someone with a bachelor's degree to be found wanting due to some intangible of leadership...and when they volunteered for service...that could be damaging. It is true that if they didn't privatize as much they could pay better and equip better but I don't think they should have their educations before their service. Actually, I guess I could be a case in point. I went to college for two years before enlisting, was in serious danger of flunking out due to partying and just not doing the work. After four years of enlisted service, I returned to a (different) university and held a 3.9 academic average for my last two years earning a B.A. I thank the discipline and mission motivation I received in the U.S. Army for this turnaround. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 8/5/2008 3:00:54 PM | Couple of things...
Do you care about our government sending rapists, thieves and crazy violent felons to represent us in foriegn countries?
1. There are no convicted rapists serving in the US Armed Forces - Rape is a crime that cannot be waived, its an automatic (and permanent) DQ.
2. 'Crazy violent felons'? Prove it. Prove that an individual known to be a 'crazy violent felon' was knowingly sworn into the US Military. You can't.
Do you think those honorable, sane soldiers want to be working next to someone like this?
Soldiers / Marines want good NCO's (rare) and equipment that works (rarer) - enough said. Whether PFC So-So has a criminal record is really of no consequence when you have people shooting at you or you have to take a #2 in your cami's because your prohibited from leaving the position.
A soldier on duty killing an Iraqi soldier by stabbing him 17 times with a bayonet for lighting a cigarette.
Classic spin - Selectively presenting facts that support one's position. Tell the whole story.
PS: Whether a waiver can be procured for any conviction depends largely on the individual and any character-references they may be able to collect. Character-references are only accepted from teachers / doctors / administrators / and those of 'reputable professions'. Of course some slip thru the cracks, but thats true of any job - theres doctors right now who probably shouldn't be doctors and even airline pilots who probably shouldn't be allowed in the****it of an aircraft. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 8/5/2008 3:04:41 PM | Its about time that somebody who actually knows what in the h*ll their talking about shows up. Rock on, soldier.
*Please forgive those who claim to be the American version of Confucius G.I yet know precisely jack about our armed forces. In their defense, they are consistently lied to by the dumpster rats we call reporters and know no better. | |
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| Criminals and Mentally ill as soldiers
Posted: 8/6/2008 8:49:55 AM | | I strongly agree. My military service ended in 1998. I have a son currently serving but it's not the same although I am so glad he's back Stateside and safe. It is nice hearing something from an active duty Marine rather than those who bear nothing but contempt for those who serve. Like Stephen King, Vietnam draft-dodger, who basically said that if you're literate you can make something of yourself but if you can't read you're going to Iraq. | |
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