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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 3:42:27 PM | equality. hm. it really does make me think. and im not trying to be sarcastic when i ask/say this, but..
what about cases with vasectomy. would a man deem it acceptable if he was told by the woman he was dating, to ask him to do this? so pregnancy does not occur? (forget bc forms for a second) how many men would agree to this?
remember. laws. equality. equal rights.
no fuzzy wording, no spouting off roe v. wade, no spouting off laws, etc.
yes or no. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 3:58:24 PM |
what about cases with vasectomy. would a man deem it acceptable if he was told by the woman he was dating, to ask him to do this? so pregnancy does not occur? (forget bc forms for a second) how many men would agree to this?
Dating? Not likely. Would a woman agree to have her tubes tied if she were only dating? I don't think so.
But, if you both agreed that that was what need to be done and you flipped a coin to see who gets snipped, it sounds like a pretty equitable solution to me.
In a marriage or marraige-like relationship it seems like the guy gets snipped more often than the woman. I know I was the one who had it done when I was married.
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 4:06:00 PM |
Dating? Not likely.
a man wants equality with what to with a womans body. however, that man says  when it comes to his body.
interesting. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 4:08:53 PM | Face it. Women have the upper hand here fellas.
I agree, if two people agree not to have a baby, use protection, and she turns up pregnant, then the man should be able to opt out and give up parental rights. Too many women get pregnant thinking this will keep him around. To the contrary, almost everytime, she is left alone with the kids, then whining about that damned deadbeat dad of theirs. Pitiful.
So, a woman agrees not to have kids, then secretly doesn't take her pills should be rewarded somehow? Poppycock. Worry not fellas... a male birth control pill is on its way! Only then will the playing field level a bit.
In the meantime, why not get snipped. Just dont tell her. How fun it would be if she popped up pregnant then, huh!
Signed,
Strongdad Got Custody and the Support check! | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 4:09:22 PM |
a man wants equality with what to with a womans body. however, that man says when it comes to his body.
So, you're saying that women regularly get their tubes tied when they are dating, or that they are expected to do so?
Yikes. You hang out in a strange part of the world.
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 4:12:37 PM | the way this thread has gone, it sounds as if men expect to walk away from a mistake they had an equal part in. now they are  because they cant have a say with what they want the womans body to go thru. termination or child birth, both, which has no physical affect on the man, just his wallet.
lets face it-both the man and woman made a choice to unzip the pants and open their legs. why can a man sit high and mighty from the sidelines?
but let me guess, this will get flipped. it always does.
theres too much around here.
men, take responsibility for your penis.
women, take responsibility for your vagina.
like another poster stated:
2 players, 2 payers
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 4:18:41 PM |
the way this thread has gone, it sounds as if men expect to walk away from a mistake they had an equal part in. now they are because they cant have a say with what they want the womans body to go thru. termination or child birth, both, which has no physical affect on the man, just his wallet.
Please, post the number of ONE post where a guy was saying ANYTHING about wanting to have ANY control over what happens in or with a woman's body if conception occurs.
If I didn't post it here, I've posted in other similar threads that I support 100% women's rights to choose to do with her body what she chooses.
I don't think you'll find many men who think differently.
Cheers. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 4:26:12 PM |
Please, post the number of ONE post where a guy was saying ANYTHING about wanting to have ANY control over what happens in or with a woman's body if conception occurs.
youve got to be kidding me. all 3485634897 pages has going on that a man has no control over rights after conception. that is what has been argued for umpteen pages now. this thread has been taken for a ride thru roe v. wade abortion town and all over. im not going to rehash it for you. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 4:47:58 PM |
youve got to be kidding me. all 3485634897 pages has going on that a man has no control over rights after conception. that is what has been argued for umpteen pages now. this thread has been taken for a ride thru roe v. wade abortion town and all over. im not going to rehash it for you
No need to rehash. You, like so many women, get confused about the difference between men having an equal right to opt out of parenthood and men having a say in what women do with their bodies whether pregnant or not. The two are NOT the same no matter how you try to make it so.
And, again, I challenge you to point out ONE guy in ANY thread who says they want a say in what women do with their bodies.
As far as snivelling goes, many of us guys are sick of hearing how horrible it is to carry a kid to term as a legitimate argument as to why women deserve extra, special rights.
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 4:50:35 PM | I never looked at my kids as a mistake, nor did I walk away from them. To the contrary, I spent many tens of thousands of dollars in custody court, and prevailed. Now, they have a parent who can take care of them.
However, the sentiment seems that men want to "walk away from a mistake." I only see women having abortions. Is that what they are doing? Walking away from a mistake? Some do it for health reasons, I suppose. But, I have known many women who did it because it was indeed a mistake. Heck, there is even a pill for that now. The, "morning after you got drunk and gave it up to the wrong guy" pill.
As I said before, worry not fellas....the male birth control pill is coming soon.
SD | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 4:56:41 PM | Funny how you mention the morning after giving it up to the wrong guy thread pill. Seems the consensus since it's release 25 years ago that it did not reduce the numbers of abortions and many felt it became a replacement for taking the pill on a regular basis.
Further they acertained that many women have considered abortion as just another form of contraception.
And please if you wish to ask so many questions, start your own thread please. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 5:43:36 PM | 5150,
If it is about ownership, then the 60 to 120 million troops that "accidently" found their way deep inside a woman's womb are mine and would like to have them back, or its stealing.
I willfully slid my unit in, but under pressure was forced to give up the troops....Hmmm, I wonder if there is an argument that can be made out of that one? | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 6:23:16 PM | Sorry strongdad my bad, in the last couple pages it has been discussed that women have a lot more options.
About the questions thing I should have been more direct at who I was refering to. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 6:55:21 PM | The problem is that biology does play a role in how the law gets applied. It sounds so simple to say that if women have the option to opt out, so should men. Sounds equal on paper, but biology makes it extremely unequal. A woman has to endure an invasive medical procedure and the emotional, and probable physical, aftermath. What does the man have to endure to invoke this opt out suggestion?
I have conceded that there is inequality in reproductive rights, but there is no possible way to make it completely equal. When these male birth control options become readily available, and a pregnancy still happens, will men be willing to step-up somehow to make up for what a woman has to endure physically because a man forgot to take his pill or thought that the women getting pregnant would fix their relationship? | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 7:20:34 PM |
A woman has to endure an invasive medical procedure and the emotional, and probable physical, aftermath.
Not necessarily. Again, any guy who's stupid enough to trust a woman to be the only one in control of prevention is an idiot. If, for whatever stupid reason the particpants have any doubts or 'forget' to protect themselves, the morning after pill can be taken up to 5 days afterwards, I think, and it's not an invasive medical procedure. In Canada, they're talking about making it available off the shelf, I believe. Or, it's available for something like $12 over the counter. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 7:42:15 PM | | Capitano: This is true, but the proposed opt out solution for men was a lot longer than 5 days, and the bulk of the argument has been that women have abortion as an opt out, so men need something equal to that. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 7:45:13 PM | Myblue,
If a woman wants a child, she can goto the sperm bank, or get inseminated. Does she therefore have the right to find out who the Father was and go after him for support?
If a woman forgot to take her pill, yet leads a man on by saying that she is on birth control and he dumps one in the pocket, is he therefore responsible if the woman gets pregnant?
Consenting adults already know the implications of having sex and the consequences of giving birth. Deal with it, it was their choice.
Men should have the opportunity to opt out, since 50% was his doing...What is the price for opting out? The price for an abortion, a box of rubbers...a diaphram...
Just gulp down the troops, or sack it or go home and wack it. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 7:49:45 PM |
Capitano: This is true, but the proposed opt out solution for men was a lot longer than 5 days, and the bulk of the argument has been that women have abortion as an opt out, so men need something equal to that.
Well, I haven't seen any men advocating for being able to opt out by somehow coercing a woman to have an abortion. That is completely up to her and is one of 3 ways she can opt out. The other two are adoption or, in some places, there is still the 'safe haven' law, I believe, which allows a woman to drop the child off at a hospital or other 'safe' place. Not sure if that's an option in Canada. So, mom has 9 months + to choose to opt out completely from a child's life. Men do not have ANY option if the mother chooses to pursue him. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 7:57:12 PM | Capitano: Hence, the reason for my post. I'm not arguing the facts. I stated that it wasn't equal, but it's a function of biology that doesn't make it equal. Giving a man the right to opt out, will not make it equal either.
To the poster above capitano: The sperm bank question doesn't even apply here. It's an entirely different discussion, but no the mother doesn't have the right to know who the father is. I'm not entirely sure what else it is you are asking me. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 8:03:23 PM | You do not concede points on anything because you have your personal convictions and that's great that you have three little ones to take care of yet you spend so much quality time here arguing points that will in o way ever effect your life.
So let's just agree to disagree.~cleansed~
^^^^Back the truck up here....I think I was pretty clear by conceding to the point that no man should be emotionally obligated to be a father if he chooses not to be.
Which brings the other half of this debate and the finacial aspect regarding an unplanned pregnancy that has resulted in a child......wait a second....I'm having a dejavu..I feel like I have already explained my opinions in this thread for some reason....hmmmm....OH YEAH....I DID!!!!
As another poster said....it takes two to play....and two to pay.
But hey who needs the big picture. You seem to have pretty much all of it figured out. ~cleansed~
^^^^nope..not all of it...I still haven't figured out the men who find it easy to discard children like a used kleenex....oops, I meant tissues....didn't mean to use a highcost brand name or label in my emotional response!!! | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 8:10:28 PM |
Capitano: Hence, the reason for my post. I'm not arguing the facts. I stated that it wasn't equal, but it's a function of biology that doesn't make it equal. Giving a man the right to opt out, will not make it equal either.
I understand your POV and I appreciate how you present it. But, I suppose we are at an impasse with this one.
This issue has made it to court at least once and I'm sure it'll get there again. For my son's and their son's, I hope that they someday gain equal rights or they come out with a reliable pill for men soon...
Cheers.
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 8:15:16 PM | Funny that but do you hold the 1.4 million women a year that choose abortion to the same standards because of your personal convictions. Abortion may not be an option for you but you would deny other women that choice? Do they also deserve your scorn?
They seem to be able to as you say toss them like kleenex.
Let me also mention that there was a class action suit launched at Walmart in order for them to carry the morning after pill. So you speak for all women then is it.
This is not a personal issue for me liz. I am a divorced father who pays my child support gladly. I just find that this an unjust situation that a lot of men face.
I in no way am trying to change your mind. I am sorry you had a man leave you to raise your children on your own. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 8:19:38 PM |
No need to rehash. You, like so many women, get confused about the difference between men having an equal right to opt out of parenthood and men having a say in what women do with their bodies whether pregnant or not. The two are NOT the same no matter how you try to make it so.
and you, like so many men, get confused about YOUR ROLE you played in this as well. not ALL women will opt out. then what? you can walk away with your di.ck tucked in your pants and not be held responsible for a SEXUAL ACT you BOTH participated in? bs. complete bs.
no matter how you spin it, NO MAN, nor WOMAN, shall be given the option to turn away. YOU BOTH did the deed. MAN UP. (woman up for the equality pushers. ya know, gotta be all politically correct around here, so feelings dont get hurt)
And, again, I challenge you to point out ONE guy in ANY thread who says they want a say in what women do with their bodies.
and again i stated i will not dig thru 17 pages, as some men have stated throughout the thread, during the course of "awryness" that it does not seem fair that women have the ability to terminate, when, there is a possibility that the man might have wanted to have the ability to raise the child. (thats when the talk of roe v. wade was trampled on) how do you think roe v. wade was even brought up? If you still cannot see it, somewhere on the 17 pages, I cannot help you.
As far as snivelling goes, many of us guys are sick of hearing how horrible it is to carry a kid to term as a legitimate argument as to why women deserve extra, special rights.
you know, not all women are blessed with the gift to carry to term. i have lost 2 prematurely, before i was given the gift of my daughter, and even that pregnancy was not easy. i had 5 surgeries to bring her safe into this world (transabdominal cerclage, hital hernia, gallbladder/stones taken out, wound separation, csection). be my guest and have the ability to carry a child. i can tell you all about birthing 2 daughters who came out silent. oh, but then again, we arent supposed to talk about the horrible parts of pregnancy because you dont want to hear it. yea. forgot about that.
women will always have a heads up on birthing rights. just a fact of life. we have the ability to carry a child. its our bodies. yes, you helped plant the seed. however, i still fail to see a legitament arguement as to why there should be equality in that. a man just does not have the equipment. hell, id love to use my member and write cursive yellow snow. but, some things just arent possible. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/29/2008 8:20:08 PM | Nothing is 100% reliable on anyside, male or female. It comes down to, know where you are sticking it. I totally agree with a previous posters comment of 2 players, 2 payers.
Consider a one night stand, she ends up pregnant. For some reason, whether its emotional, physical, or both, she has the baby. They are both at fault. She opened her legs and invited him, he gladly obliged. Therefore, equally responsible... yes she chose to have the baby without consulting him, but there are many reasons for not choosing those methods made available to us. And unfortunately it sucks to be a guy in this case, because unless you really know this woman well, there is no telling what her decision will be, and you CANNOT comprehend it, until faced with it from our point of view. fair?? Probably not, but if you don't like it, then visit the palm sisters alot more often then randomly sticking women for pleasure
Between religion, and health(mental, or physical). None of these methods are without consequences, heck even the birth control pill comes with the possible, but rare side effect of instant death.
Personally if you are going to have sex, its a risk. the only 100% effective method is to not go there. | |
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