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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 8:26:37 AM |
These programs are not limited to just women.
I personally know families on those programs. Men souly as well.
Hey Princess...I did say mother/father ;)
We all have to band together to get the next generation going.
O | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 8:27:48 AM | | Seeing as you all are some blind ***holes too!!!....I'll help you....Subaru said she is giving birth on Friday.....Beavenhouse and the Captain just continue squarin' off at one another...no congratulations.....Volunteer Girl calls me out on my lack of manners...no congratulations.....Beavenhouse's mother IS proud of her..I'm sure....STILL no congratulations.....I feel like an announcer ringside at a prizefight!! | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 8:28:16 AM | Henry L. Moon
Does guilt tripping work for you in life much? Have you considered cognative therapy to over come this disablity.
We are debating and you come into it wrongly accusing us not wanting our children etc, then try to use subaru pregnancy as a way to deflect from statements. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 8:30:43 AM | | Yes Beavenhouse I find "guilt tripping" to be a tool of highly effective people as written in the 1906 tome by the immortal Irving F. Kismiazz | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 8:36:32 AM |
No idea. We live post-1970.
I'm pretty sure many people still experience the effects of the days when men weren't liablity for their sperm.
The backlash from some women who feel they are entitled to more enjoyment of life then men are the product of the pre legally inforced child support days. Which I guess was my point, that we can't go back to the days men could opt out of being parents. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 8:36:45 AM | | They kicked me out of therapy too...they gave me drugs that put me to sleep, and when I woke up my pants were unbuttoned, so I know they did something wrong .. When I complained about my pants being open, they beat me severely and gave me a shoein'and told me never to come back, now they just charge my Visa card every week . | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 8:37:53 AM | Capitano, I never said "scot-free." No one in the situation of having an unplanned, or planned for that matter, gets off scot-free. I'm pointing out that there is no possible way to make everything exactly the same (read: equal) due to the differences in biology. I would like to know that my career won't be delayed if I get pregnant, but that's not reality either. I completely agree that if a woman doesn't want to have the child and the father does, he should be given that choice. I completely agree that custody decisions need to be made without regard to gender. But attempting to even out the playing field by giving an opt out to men doesn't create equality!
Obsidian: Having a DNA test peformed while pregnant, especially early in the pregnancy, can result in miscarriage. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 9:03:29 AM |
But attempting to even out the playing field by giving an opt out to men doesn't create equality!
I hear ya.... though I have a ya-but.
Ya-but, the RIGHTS would be equal, while the CONSEQUENCES for the choices the woman makes may not be.
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 9:04:59 AM |
Which I guess was my point, that we can't go back to the days men could opt out of being parents.
I agree. Can't go back, but we could go forward to true equality.
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 9:06:47 AM |
do you think that if guys were legally able to opt out that it would make women think twice about who they're sleeping with or how diligent they are about BC? Not this woman, no and I very much doubt there are many women whose decision making would change. Anyone who makes a decision about whether or not to bring a child into this world predicated on the knowledge/belief that the father will have to pay support is a fool.
For a start, there are 1000s of people who have child support liabilities that have never been paid and most likely never will be.
Do I think that the father should have a legal right to opt out once a baby is conceived? No I do not. Their opportunity to opt out has been and gone as far as I am concerned.
However, any woman who takes a risk where a pregnancy could result based on the idea that the man will support the child is living in fantasy land. I have met dozens of single parents (all woman, I admit) where the father of the child/ren is liable to pay support and has never paid a dime. And probably never will. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 9:33:42 AM |
Men are the only ones to actually gain anything from this proposition. Women would then be forced to make a choice based on the man's choice. Abortion, possible physical, mental and emotional consequences as well as what you believe to be moral. Adoption, for 9 months you carry, nuture become emotionally attached to the child you are carrying and then are expected to give him/her up.
We use the term “opt out” when talking about abortion/adoption, but it’s not that simple. As much as we want to simplify it to a choice to "opt out", it’s a much bigger burden than that for most women. It’s a terrifying decision, with long term emotional, physical, and spiritual consequences. You can’t put a financial cost on those things. So who’s cost is greater?
I like how no one has yet challenged the preconception that men have no emotional repercussions in this. Or if they have any it must somehow be less than for a woman.
There is a reason women are not chased for CS if they do on the rare occasion carry a child they do not want and then hand it over to the father. The courts admit that doing so will only result in more women having abortions, note this is different from any case where the child already exists and a custody battle ensues. Many jurisdictions actually already allow women to "opt out" of parental and financial obligations in such cases. You cannot go after the unwilling mother for CS, but at a later date she CAN change her mind and go after you for access rights.
Why do you think that is? | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 9:42:23 AM | Yes, there are thousands of deadbeat parents out there. Unfortunately, when comparing, a larger percentage of mothers fail to pay their child support, than do fathers. The sheer numbers of deadbeat dads is larger, because most of the time, moms automatically get custody. But, as more men have been getting custody, (and will continue, as new laws are pushed through), the women are defaulting on child support payments in higher percentages. And, this is despite the fact that, as an average, they are only ordered to pay about half the child support dollars that men are ordered to pay. My, how the winds of change are a blowin.
In my own situation, I played hell trying to get child support out of my kids mother. And, to add even more shame, their mom is a police officer. You know, the people who go out and arrest deadbeat dads?
SD | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 9:53:37 AM |
I'm pretty sure many people still experience the effects of the days when men weren't liablity for their sperm.
The backlash from some women who feel they are entitled to more enjoyment of life then men are the product of the pre legally inforced child support days. Which I guess was my point, that we can't go back to the days men could opt out of being parents.
Excellent point MsB. But, do you not think that reactionary measures do go too far and unbalance they whole affair?
Granted I totally agree that the pre-existing system was screwed and did need some serious fixing, this new replacement is no better. It simply removes all rights from one group and hands them ALL to another. Instead of balancing rights and responsibilities for both parties the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction.
Side note: Although some may consider it so abortion is NOT contraception (neither is the morning after pill). This is BIRTH control, two separate issues. I did go to school with one girl that didn't know the difference and had 4 in 3 years because she couldn't master contraception and the guys she dated weren't very bright either. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 10:03:42 AM | Holy crow! I went to bed at 11pm last night and I wake up this morning and there are 3 more pages! Dayum you guys have been busy over night! Pardon me for being all over the place here, but there were several things I wanted to address. Quotes are from various people.
Simply because, unlike some women, many of us men believe in EQUAL rights
I'm going out on a limb here and I'm going to say that MOST women (in this thread) DO believe in equal rights. I don't want the government in my business. I don't want the government in your business. Just because we disagree on this topic doesn't mean we aren't for equal rights in general. We'd be for equal rights in this case if it were possible but it's NOT!!! WE, as women, didn't make it this way- it's not our fault!!! Ask God why he was so "unfair" to men. This isn't the only thing in life that isn't fair.
what are you going to tell the kid, if he/she grows up.." I was raped and ended up pregnant"? WTF.......
I have a friend who had to do this. Her daughter is 19 or 20 now and she's not all screwed up in the head about it.
For all the men in this thread that acknowledge and accept that nature makes it unfair, please tell your parents how proud of them I am for raising responsible sons who don't turn tail and run just because times get rough. Who don't **** because not everything in life is equal. Who realize that it's not all about money or the woman you got pregnant but about the child you are about to have. Those kind of morals and values need to make a comeback.
Why should men not have that same right to opt out completely?
And again- because myself and the rest of society shouldn't have to pay for your night of playing. I have my own kids to feed and clothe, and I don't want to contribute to feeding and clothing yours as well when you should be doing that.
I may have started using the shaming tactics many women use here
Why go there? Why not just own up to your own actions instead of placing the blame everywhere else?
I think a man should have a choice to have custody (provided it's deemed appropriate) if a woman chooses to give a child up for adoption.
Completely agree. I think the first person to be considered to adopt the child be the father. Then other family members such as grandparents. Then the general public.
I don't fear the the woman's life will be any worse because her life will be determined by fate and her decisions.
The reality is we take care of our mothers here.
See!! Right here in these two quotes - some of you still believe it's about MOM and not BABY.
I do believe the child deserves rights and attention and trying to force a derelict father to ante up isn't going to do the job
Hanging out on my limb again here, but I'm pretty sure most, if not all of us, agree that we cannot force a man to be a father. We're not trying to force a man to be a father.
but do you think that if guys were legally able to opt out that it would make women think twice about who they're sleeping with or how diligent they are about BC? Just wondering.
It would make men more careless as it would take away the ONE responsibility of a man in the situation- paying child support. I really don't think it would make women anymore responsible either.
But, SHE makes those choices and must, therefore, live with the consequences.
Dude, I'd GLADLY give you the power to make those decisions if you could carry a kid. You think any of those three options we have are easy ones to make? Why does it have to affect the rest of my life but not yours? Why do you get to ride off into the sunset like nothing ever happened while I'm standing holding all the emotional baggage and physical pain?
Or if they have any it must somehow be less than for a woman.
It IS less. YOUR body doesn't go through the hormonal changes that a woman's does. I'm not sure exactly what happens after abortion, but it's my understanding that you go through the same process you would if you gave birth to a full term baby? The bleeding and hormonal imbalance and all that. Do men get PPD? Oh yeah, no, they don't.
As for the rest, I don't know why it is that way. I think non-custodial women should be held to the same standards of paying child support as non-custodial fathers. I watch my brother in law struggle to raise two girls - the youngest isn't even his, but he took her on as his own, and their deadbeat, crackhead mother has nothing to do with them and has never paid support. I'll personally knock 50lbs off her fat ass the hard way for that if she should ever come back from Cali. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 10:25:29 AM |
Dude, I'd GLADLY give you the power to make those decisions if you could carry a kid. You think any of those three options we have are easy ones to make? Why does it have to affect the rest of my life but not yours? Why do you get to ride off into the sunset like nothing ever happened while I'm standing holding all the emotional baggage and physical pain?
While I acknowledge that carrying a kid to term may not be great at times for women, it is still YOUR choice to do so. And, if it IS so horrible, why do women do it ONCE, let alone numerous times?
Just saying....
And, as I've stated before, I am about equal RIGHTS, while I acknowledge that the CONSEQUENCES or opting out may not be equal.
It would make men more careless as it would take away the ONE responsibility of a man in the situation- paying child support. I really don't think it would make women anymore responsible either.
I agree and it is sad that an opt out option for men wouldn't change women's decision-making when it comes to BC and pregnancy. I feel for the kids who are ultimately the losers.
How about if a guy had a waiver form for the woman to sign before sex stating that in the case of 'accidental' pregnancy, he had ZERO interest in being a father and would likely do everything to avoid CS? At least it'd be honest, upfront and give the woman the option to kick him to the curb before she dropped her drawers.
Just wonderin' 'cause as hard as it is to believe, I DON'T have all the answers....
Cheers. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 10:41:02 AM |
the RIGHTS would be equal, while the CONSEQUENCES for the choices the woman makes may not be.
Agreed, but not that simplistic. Nothing is ever truly equal, unless it is exactly the same. And men and women will never have the same reproductive rights. It just isn’t that simple!
There is a reason women are not chased for CS if they do on the rare occasion carry a child they do not want and then hand it over to the father. The courts admit that doing so will only result in more women having abortions, note this is different from any case where the child already exists and a custody battle ensues. Many jurisdictions actually already allow women to "opt out" of parental and financial obligations in such cases. You cannot go after the unwilling mother for CS, but at a later date she CAN change her mind and go after you for access rights.
Can you show me an example of this because I don’t think this is the case? Although I do recognize that all states are different, so I would be interested.
How about if a guy had a waiver form for the woman to sign before sex stating that in the case of 'accidental' pregnancy, he had ZERO interest in being a father and would likely do everything to avoid CS? At least it'd be honest, upfront and give the woman the option to kick him to the curb before she dropped her drawers.
I suggested that pages ago! It wasn't acknowledged. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 10:45:25 AM | Just a thought....
I have heard many women state that their sexual activity doesn't mean they have to accept having a baby. This is in defense of their assertion of abortion rights. And, I agree with that. Just because a woman has sex, doesn't mean she is consenting to have a baby. Sex, afterall, they state, is not just for procreation. In their defense, they say there are all kinds of considerations, when aborting. Chief amongst them is their readiness to parent, financial situation, relationship status with their partner, and even health issues.
I agree with their legal right to choose. So, I must ask. Why would the standard be any different for the man? Why is it viewed by some, that if a woman has sex, she isn't consenting to having a baby, but if a man has sex, he is? Even when he has said that he isn't.
To me, such a position doesn't hold water.
SD | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 10:49:23 AM | Yeah what Rawrr said!
Excellent point MsB. But, do you not think that reactionary measures do go too far and unbalance they whole affair?
I think part of the problem is that previous to the changes men rights were always assumed to be superior to women and children. Men have had to play catch up learning how to protect themselves.
As a new generation of judges come into force I think parental rights will balance. You know the gender bias hurts both sexes and can be the result old boys club thinking. e.g. Women are naturally better parents, and if they are better then men are absolved from parenting duties and just need to support financial. I find it interesting that many man feel they are held to a higher standard then women because of women's rights when in truth it's because of old world thinking. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 10:52:59 AM |
I agree with their legal right to choose. So, I must ask. Why would the standard be any different for the man? Why is it viewed by some, that if a woman has sex, she isn't consenting to having a baby, but if a man has sex, he is? Even when he has said that he isn't.
Good point. I've noticed the same many times. It's usually given as, " Well if you didn't want to have a baby, you should have kept it in your pants!  " or, " It's YOUR baby, so it's YOUR responsibility."
It often seems as though it's the " Women have rights, men have responsibilities " sorta thing when sex. pregnancy, BC and CS are discussed.
Just sayin'. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 10:56:20 AM |
How about if a guy had a waiver form for the woman to sign before sex stating that in the case of 'accidental' pregnancy, he had ZERO interest in being a father and would likely do everything to avoid CS? At least it'd be honest, upfront and give the woman the option to kick him to the curb before she dropped her drawers.
Actually I asked myself "would I want to conceive a child with this man" before becoming intimate with a new partner. I clearly state to the man, I will not have an abortion if I became pregnant and that he is equally responsible for birth control. We have this conversation before the panties come off. It's amazing how easily we exchange fluid but can't have a what if conversation. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 11:00:39 AM |
We have this conversation before the panties come off. It's amazing how easily we exchange fluid but can't have a what if conversation.
Bravo for you! I think it needs to happen BOTH ways.
Sadly, I doubt it will. | |
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| Women's Choice=no support from fathers???
Posted: 7/30/2008 11:07:31 AM |
It often seems as though it's the " Women have rights, men have responsibilities " sorta thing when sex. pregnancy, BC and CS are discussed.
Aww you poor men you're always the victims, give me a break. Men need to assert their rights so they can have a better option then condoms when it comes to BC. I'm unsure how pregnancy could possible be a right for men. And once again men need to assert their rights regarding child support, just as women had too (while I know child support is for the child, women did have to fight for the right have collection enforced).
Actually did you know men can lactate? One of you men decided to breast feed for a year and then I'll jump on the bandwagon for equal reproductive rights for men  | |
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