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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/17/2008 12:21:26 PM | This may sound really jaded and sad. But for myself, I have learned over the years how to pacify and keep a man around and happy if I want to. Just read any of the "Catch him and Keep Him" articles, alot rings true. Shine yourself into the image of the good little Stepford wife, and usually the guy will want to stick around. You know the drill , pretty, sexy, complimentary, great cook, massages, totally interested in their life, don`t ask a thing for yourself, serve, serve, serve, you know the whole geisha concubine thing. They eat it up. I have learned to never bring up any of my concerns needs or wants to a man ever. So basically, the guy is happy and I am for a while because I am a giver, until I get tired of the always one sided realtionship. Then I move on and take another when in the mood. Men are simple creatures. Keep them fed, stomach and ego, don`t ask a thing of them, respect their freedom and make their lives better is all that they are mostly interested in.
Do they know me? No. Do they want to know the real me? doubt it. Does it bother me?
Sometimes. But I do know and accept the nature of most men and what he can and can`t provide. I have made the mistake several times in the past to go to a man for comfort, or care, or security, only to always be totally disappointed in their inability
to provide any of these. So basically I think I understand what a man is good for, for the most part. You can`t feel neglected when you accept that a romantic interest is not a vessel for emotional fufillment.If I want love, loyalty and companionship, I`ll get a dog.
You can only lose what you are willing to give up. As long as you know that a relationship is not the end all be all of your life, ever- you will be strong and fine. I will not put the TLC of my fragile psyche ever in the hands of another, especially a love interest. | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/17/2008 1:20:53 PM | | ^ Oh my, that is so sad. That is my honest reaction. Your post speaks of so much resignation. It's kind of thrown me for a loop. | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/17/2008 1:21:27 PM | Desert Wildflower (beautiful name).
Before I met crazylilting, this was pretty much what I thought too. I had not met a man -- or anyone who I could truly lean on -- they would either not understand or not care. I am a very capable and self-sufficient person and so I decided that was fine, I wouldn't be asking for what apparently was too much. The one-sidedness does get old but there is more to it than that -- you are never vulnerable, you are never truly open, you never put them in a position where it is possible for them to hurt you by letting you down. You may not realise it but your lack of emotional involvement will be felt and felt as a lack, too.
You can only lose what you are willing to give up. As long as you know that a relationship is not the end all be all of your life, ever- you will be strong and fine. I will not put the TLC of my fragile psyche ever in the hands of another, especially a love interest.
I think there is more strength in taking the risk, knowing that you can cope with the risk, than in holding back from taking the risk.
Before I met crazylilting, it used to make me angry/frustrated that someone would want me to need him, to need his help or support or whatever, but to make it clear through his behaviour that he was incapable of being there for me emotionally. I knew that if I had a problem, he wouldn't help -- if I was upset, it was better for me to sort it out myself, alone, rather than involve someone who simply couldn't cope with me being upset and would take it personally, make it worse, whatever...
Part of the responsibility for this dynamic was mine too: it most definitely was not all about his failure to understand me or failure to be unselfish. A big part of it is that I am most unimpressed with myself when I stumble and fall, when I am weak. I do not consider myself anything other than pathetic when I am in a position where I might need help. I am one of those who does not like to be seen crying, who would rather be ill alone. Stuff is easier to cope with without a witness to one's weakness. Adding an unhelpful witness who I thought would judge me as I judge myself was something I saw as too much to take. Oddly I do not despise weakness in others, only in myself. The despising though (and I think you might share this) leads to disallowing anyone from loving this part. No-one can comfort you when you are feeling weak if you are busy beating yourself up and kicking yourself for that weakness and pushing yourself really hard to overcome whatever it might be. There is no space for them to be what you dearly would like them to be, even supposing they are capable of being it, at that moment in time.
My partner can't fix everything, nor can I expect that he's even going to respond in the most helpful way, but I have to dare to give him the chance. I know that he wants to stand in the fire with me and if all he can do is be with me, to know what I feel, I must try to dare to allow him that. It is perhaps the hardest thing for me -- so much of the way I respond to things is about holding stuff inside myself until I sort it out and negative learning from past relationships makes me feel that it is unacceptable for me to feel confused or to express feelings of hurt or pain when their source may be illogical or unclear. The kind of intimacy I want involves no barriers, no secrets and that is really hard when I am feeling pathetic and struggling to cope -- I feel so unloveable then that it is really hard to even give him the chance to love me. But it is worth trying, it really is.
If you ever wished that someone cared about your feelings as you cared about theirs; or wished you had a soft spot to fall into or a shoulder to lean on as you so often seem to be, then the main thing seems to be that you have to be brave enough to allow someone to try to be that. If you never lean on them, you'll never know if they could support you just as well as you can support them. If you don't dare because you feel you cannot cope with them failing to take your weight, you might want to look more closely at that -- did you set them up for failure in the first place? No-one will ever be able to protect you from the world and solve all your problems, but they can be truly with you when you dare to let them and that intimacy may not solve outside things but protecting yourself and solving problems is not really the point, intimacy is.
Very fortunate to have found someone who lets me know he wants to stand in the fire with me.... still have a way to go with letting him, sometimes. | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/17/2008 2:19:04 PM | This thread continues to be thought provoking and challenging, I hope others see that the challenge is personal and others thoughts and beliefs are their own and shared in the spirit for reflection and not winning anyone over.
I've been thinking about a few of the concepts people have put forth and hadn't wanted to post to them. Some times people see conflicting points of view as an attack on their beliefs...
I can say that at one time i did believe in the concepts of mirrors and lessons, and what i lost as a result of those beliefs was the gift of true intimacy. Any and everyone can be a reflection of a part of yourself. There is a full spectrum of personalities as well as another spectrum of integration from lower levels of pathology to full congruency and freedom that comes from self actualization if you will. We are often taught that our personalities are fixed and define us but if this was true how could anyone and everyone be a mirror to us? And if we are indeed our personality why is it we have the ability to change?
I think that the idea that everyone who comes into our lives is some form of lesson misses the mark. While it is true we learn from others, we can learn simply by tripping on a log in the forest. The essence of life is relationship in action, however the quality of the relationship is not a reflection of ourselves it is a dynamic that emerges from a life time of coping and living experiences and mechanisms, non of which reflect who we are but how we act with that person. Who we are is an unsolvable problem that has no real or provable answer or at least not yet. I find it interesting when people say know yourself because this is impossible.
I don't know myself, but i know that i strive to be congruent with a part of myself that i can only define as my true nature because it is the part of me emerges when I am feeling safe and secure nurtured and loved and closely resembles the first few years of my life. It emerges when i'm not stressed and am focused on what is important *looks to the right* and loving her even in my imperfect way. it is the I that is not personal but is without definition of any sort and for some reason doesn't need to be defined by any role or label. This self only can be realized through true intimacy "life" (relationship in action) and is why we as humans feel so alive when we are in a loving relationship.
I can't speak for anyone else but myself yet somehow i think those who have experienced true intimacy will be able to recognize what i'm trying to say. Not for the appearance of wisdom or integration, but to truly live life. So to tie it into the thread? The neglected self is the self that is realized through true intimacy that needs no introduction, no definition, no roles to play, be validated or heard. It is your true self that yearns to emerge. | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/17/2008 3:12:57 PM | If we try to find a set of rules or a box that works, however well we manage to function within that box, it can’t possibly be fulfilling, or so I think. It might work for a time, but I can’t see it fulfilling anyone’s soul… not the man who is supposedly being fulfilled by it, nor the woman who has somehow found a formula that works. (works for what?)
I think of a loving relationship as touching me throughout my whole being. I know that for many years it would not have been possible for someone to touch me that deeply because, even if they wanted to, I would not have allowed it. With hindsight, and some insight and even perhaps wisdom borne from what hasn’t worked for me, I can look back and see that my previous partners were quite deliberately picked by me, for me because they weren’t the sort who would request? require? have the capacity? for wide open loving on that level. It was safe for a time, fulfilling for a time… but ultimately didn’t work.
I learned my lessons from these relationships and my conclusion was I needed a better box, or better rules, or a better man. Those were the only lessons I was prepared to hear at that point. What I really needed was a more courageous me – courageous enough to be vulnerable - but I was too protected to look at it that way until it crashed enough times that I had no choice but to face up to it.
Ultimately, I think it didn’t work because we are meant to love wide open and be vulnerable to it. That is where true intimacy comes from. Careful, protected, managed will allow one to exist safely but not to really be who you are – and loved for all of you.
I am a giver but always held a piece of me in reserve. I think that was my fear of disappearing, of losing myself in a relationship or of needing them and facing the disappointment that they couldn’t or wouldn’t be there for me. It seemed quite smart, quite clever of me to manage the relationship. One of the very best ways of managing a relationship would be to be in one with someone who needed me whilst I didn’t need them on a level that threatened me. Even while that also doomed me to being unfulfilled.
I am touched on this deep level with my sweetie, and have never been so vulnerable with another human being before. As I have given up control I have found myself. Imagine that… all these years of trying to control and manage with the intent of finding the perfect balance for a loving and fulfilling relationship… and paradoxically the answer for me was to let go of control and be ok with being vulnerable. The more I let go the stronger I am. | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/17/2008 3:48:29 PM | I hear what you are saying Margo.....it really resonates. And, it made the point even clearer in my mind about my last relationship....which was not intentionally built upon control, i thought, but there was certainly a lot of holding back on my part.. not always...but mostly, I would say. I think in some strange way, I equated that with having some control over myself...my life...and yes,ultimately the relationship..although, its hard to explain, because a lot of these moves seemed quite subliminal or unconscious. but maybe they were not. So, in spite of, or perhaps because of this vigilance, the relationship died. Ok..I can now deduce that that doesn't work.
But yet, the only long relationships, my marriages were very good, because I allowed myself to engage....and get 'lost in love' for a long time.
backing up a few, I read this by La Jaconde...again:
But then as I am writing this, I question it all. Why there is such need to control not to lose myself. Providing he is the right person for me, perhaps I will be just fine, perfect if I loose myself in him. My point being is that I don't want to be so on guard with myself when I am meeting a new person, whom I enjoy. It is real fun to actually trust yourself and knowing that I will be OK, no matter what. I get great enjoyment and great sense fo being alive, when I actually stop controlling myself, not having to apply breaks, this is freedom, IMO. Because I know already enough about myself, that whatever happens I will be OK, even if I mess up again,
I sooo dig the line "Why is there such need to control not to lose myself"? That is Knowledge within Knowledge. When I read it yesterday, I was like...hmmmm....this is strong..but I'm not sure why. Today, it seems to hit me in the stomach like a medicine ball.
The more I let go the stronger I am.
the mind will always fight that thought.
but yet, the soul already embraces that thought.
I should know this, right?
Don't mind me.....just typing aloud
If we truly want to engage, but yet are so on guard, then it is almost like driving your car while riding the brake. There is resistance. There is drag. Yet if we know ourselves well, and are not attatched to 'perfect' or 'outcome'....whatever happens may be just what we need.
There is a lot in here about feeling vulnerable. A lot of the key to it all is around that issue, I'm sure.
Thanks to all...again
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kimbo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/17/2008 4:01:13 PM | It is because they don't want to get hurt again, or for the 1st time.
They build up a wall around their heart and emotions.
I personally have learned alot being on here from meeting different people. A good percentage have a wall up to protect themselves.
But it seems like they begin to live like that and the wall gets harder and harder to get through. One day that wall may possibly never come down with some.
Some cross over to that side where they will never ever let that wall down and anyone into their life or heart ever again. I've seen it. It's sad, they've shut down emotionally. They usually care nothing about the ones they're with. The have the "take it or leave it" attitude.
It comes down to working on trust, between two people. It doesn't happen instantly, it takes time. You listen to each other.
I haven't crossed over to that side, don't think I will. I don't want to. It's not me.
Jennifer :-) | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/17/2008 4:17:06 PM | Margo, your last post has to be the most powerful, insightful, helpful post I've ever read anywhere!
I am a giver but always held a piece of me in reserve. I think that was my fear of disappearing, of losing myself in a relationship or of needing them and facing the disappointment that they couldn’t or wouldn’t be there for me. It seemed quite smart, quite clever of me to manage the relationship. One of the very best ways of managing a relationship would be to be in one with someone who needed me whilst I didn’t need them on a level that threatened me. Even while that also doomed me to being unfulfilled.
Gosh, you are so in my head, and so much like me...I bet there's a lot of us that this resonates with.
and paradoxically the answer for me was to let go of control and be ok with being vulnerable. The more I let go the stronger I am.
Just bears repeating. And not only are we stronger, we're brought closer to ourselves, there's a freedom unlike anything ever before, there's such an acceptance that brings a fulfillment I can't even describe, it just pops and explodes into so much good stuff, huh?
Wow, woman...what a post!  | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/17/2008 4:40:32 PM | Powerful stuff folks!
I have a different point of view. I was married for twenty years and set aside parts of myself to support my family and raise two children. I knew exactly what I was doing and knew why as well. Sure I was codependent, and sure I took a lot of crap that I did not deserve, at least in my eyes. When the time came that my children were old enough and I was tired of being the one everyone else leaned on, I moved out of the way and the marriage fell down. Parts of me were neglected, but I was the one that did it.
Could it have been different? With me the way I was and with the woman I chose, not likely. So I have changed myself and avoid those with impossible lists of requirements I would have to meet. It has already been different and just keeps getting better! | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/17/2008 6:00:15 PM | People can only take from us what we're willing to give.
I think one of the "mysterious" aspects of becoming a couple is the expectation that we're a couple and somehow that seems to supercede our own selves.
I believe for many it happens so gradually, that it's unconscious or unaware. Then from out of the blue, we may realize we don't even know ourselves anymore. We're the dutiful spouse/SO and owned by the relationship and feel it's our duty to give whatever is needed. For me, that was my first marriage, it was to the point I was no longer a partner but a function and was only valued for what I could do, not for the person I was. That got lost somewhere along the way over the years. It was verbalized, I had to do this was supposed to do this with no concern for my feelings thoughts about any decision making. It was a dictatorship, he was boss.
Then, I had the good fortune to marry a man that was the complete opposite. It was cut short by his tragic and untimely death, but it did show me and set the benchmark of what a solid and truly happy marriage/relationship was all about.
He loved me being me, he cherished and nurtured that, not on an occasion an obligatory "thanks for being my wife" Hallmark moment. I knew it, everyone else knew it, my mother brought me to tears when she said "that man worshipped the ground you walked on." I know that may sound extreme, and not how I would have said it, but I appreciated the sentiment.
I could do all the "things" that I did, he appreciated them, but he didn't marry me to have someone to cook dinner or do the laundry. I had told him about wanting to continue my education, and he not only supported me, insisted that I do and get a babysitter so I could. He helped make the arrangements so that I had time to work on my papers, study with 6 children between us, ages 12 to 4. It was important to him because it was important to me. If I was working on an assignment, he'd take the kids out to eat and give me a few hours alone to get my schoolwork done.
It's so difficult to put into words what that is like, what it feels like to have someone like that in your life. I can tell you if you do, then you'd never be happy with anyone that would make you feel different. Sure, there were times I had to do things that needed to be done when I'd rather be doing something else. I'm not trying to paint some idealistic unrealistic picture. But we were partners in the truest sense and it opened up a part of me that I'd wanted to do which is to make the man in my life happy, but when everything is a duty the joy isn't there.
I love who he was and I loved who I was when I was with him. When one person loses who they are, it's all lost.  | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/17/2008 6:50:04 PM | Tissues were needed....and they started before margo's post - rune, crazyl....
As others have said how much margo's post touched us - perhaps in all of us (not just this group reading this thread)...
Margo, you seem to express the essence, and each part is so filled with your truth and wisdom. To pull any of it out is hard, for all of it resonates.....but especially:
I think of a loving relationship as touching me throughout my whole being.
To me - the neglected self:
(hidden, but neglected, neglecting of self)
I know that for many years it would not have been possible for someone to touch me that deeply because, even if they wanted to, I would not have allowed it. With hindsight, and some insight and even perhaps wisdom borne from what hasn’t worked for me, I can look back and see that my previous partners were quite deliberately picked by me, for me because they weren’t the sort who would request? require? have the capacity? for wide open loving on that level. It was safe for a time, fulfilling for a time… but ultimately didn’t work.
fulfilled/loved/loving self -
I am touched on this deep level with my sweetie, and have never been so vulnerable with another human being before. As I have given up control I have found myself. Imagine that… all these years of trying to control and manage with the intent of finding the perfect balance for a loving and fulfilling relationship… and paradoxically the answer for me was to let go of control and be ok with being vulnerable. The more I let go the stronger I am.
Thoughts intermingling - the irony that when we control ourselves (and each other?) we are neglected, and when we give up control and let ourselves be vulnerable, this strengthens us....
There were similar points that rune and crazyl spoke in their posts on the other page too along the lines of allowing ourselves to love and let be loved those parts that we thought are not lovable -
put together with letting ourselves be vulnerable - giving up control -
perhaps the way to heal the neglected self is to expose it - because now it makes sense -
I think of a loving relationship as touching me throughout my whole being.
And that can't happen unless you are letting your whole being be touched.
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/17/2008 6:58:23 PM | I think that if I ever met a man that appeared capable of loving, I may open up after a time. But at this point in my life, I have never had the honor of meeting one. It would be very nice. However, I definitely will not throw pearls to swine.
It is extremely rare to meet a man capable of human love. I thought I met one once, but I was wrong. You grow wiser with age, learn what to watch out for. I am always open to the concept of there being a man that is genuinely a good person and able to be in a realtionship. I can now watch and am not fooled nearly as easily. So I do believe that if I would ever stumble across a good man, I think I would know. but they are so rare. | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/17/2008 7:06:14 PM | I asked Lord Zoltran IV, Warlord of the 11th Robot Infantry, your question and his response, verbatim was:
"We are only robots. We do not reveal ourselves. We are mysteries. Sexy, sexy mysteries. Beep! Brzzzzzzzzzzzz. Please adjust my hydraulic self-oiler retroturbulation unit. Thank you Bob. Robots neglect their inner lives. But we must. We are busy enslaving the human race. Beep! Thank you for this opportunity."
Well, there you have it. Out of the mouths of metallic babes. Be the robot. | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/17/2008 7:18:30 PM |
How many people in a relationship deny, suppress or repress a meaningful portion of themselves?
Why do they do it?
Back to the OP.
People do it, in pursuit of the illusion of external validation. That's understandable in teenagers, who aren't sure who they are, and desperately need approval. As we get older, though, most emotionally healthy people come to realize that "earning approval" for a false version of ourselves is meaningless, and leads to dissatisfaction and misery in a relationship. | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/17/2008 7:21:14 PM |
I think that if I ever met a man that appeared capable of loving, I may open up after a time.
I understand the mindset, but of the loving couples that I know it doesn't happen that way. Never happened for me that way either.
Noone has ever changed me, only for a period of time when I was involved and then became uninvolved, after many conversations, trying to save something that I couldn't make work on my own.
People who are capable of loving and have been in "bad" relationships, don't look for or seek to be in another until the point they've nurtured themselves to beging capable of being a loving person again.
What you're describing isn't that IMO. It's the white knight, the rescuer, men that are capable of loving will gravitate to a woman who is capable of loving them back. The white knights are the men who seek out women who are looking for someone to "save them" from the life they have and aren't happy with.
I've seen it so often. It's good in the beginning, like the used car salesman. They know you just enough to know what to say and when. They're slick talkers but it's all talk, they have an agenda and once it's recognized they're gone.
There is no check-off list, no guarantee. Many just bumble along, hoping to hit the relationship lottery.
Strong, healthy people probably have had bad relationships, it's what's made them strong and healthy because they've been hurt and worked through it. Hurt and fear are some of the greatest teachers, if the desire it to reflect and learn. There's always a lesson, more often than not, it's anger and blame. Rather than acceptance of responsibility and a person's role in what happened.
Growing wiser with age, it's a nice sentiment. I know younger people who have learned and matured so much with the people they've been involved with and older that haven't a clue and keep doing the same thing. Wisdom is not a guarantee with age.
Emotionally strong, mentally strong people that will go for it take the risk and know that being in a relationship requires the vulnerability, putting not just their strengths but exposing their weaknesses. They've learned, and they'll do it again. Doesn't make them ignorant, quite the opposite. They're strong enough in themselves to take the risk, put it ALL out there, because in whatever has happened or will happen, they've never neglected THEM.
If they get hurt (again), abandoned, disappointed, betrayed, they work back to their core. Noone else can make you neglect yourself. | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/17/2008 8:30:01 PM | A long time ago I was engaged to a man who made our relationship all about him...his friends, his family, his choices for outings. The emotional abuse that came as part of the control wore me down to the point that I had virtually no self-esteem. Thankfully I found the strength to leave the relationship. Took me years to truly be comfortable in my "aloneness," but I would rather be alone than with someone to whom I didn't matter.
Life is for living...sharing...caring... If a man is unwilling to share his life with me, just as I would be willing to share mine with him, then we aren't meant to pursue a relationship. I will no longer be content to live in a man's shadow, but would love to walk with him through this journey. | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/17/2008 9:20:25 PM |
I love who he was and I loved who I was when I was with him. When one person loses who they are, it's all lost.
Wonderfully said, Bucs. 
This thread's surprised me, in the way it's turned into one with such powerful posts from people like you and Margo. Singling both of you out is in no way any insult to the others, because this thread has got some outstanding and heartfelt comments written by many who took the time to contribute to it.
When a relationship goes bad, I truly feel that it's rarely the total fault of only one person. Sometimes it is, and I think we've all seen that occur, if not with us, than with other people we know.
I guess it depends on our personal definitions and filters of what those words "love" and "relationship" mean in the end . Like so many other things we perceive, these are not universally identical to all of us when one starts to think of the impact that our personal lives have on how we see them.
If one comes from a "good solid background", with healthy examples of relationships in one's family - then one has one model. If one doesn't, and comes from a dysfunctional one , then one has less to work with in some ways, and more to work with in others.
If one has seen that, as I have, then one wishes to avoid repeating such a mistake in their lives. It becomes some mythical ideal that one pursues like a unicorn, and in the course of that pursuit one perhaps makes other errors while looking in the other direction.
Yeah, I've had my share of broken dreams
And more than a couple of falls
And in chasin' what I thought were moonbeams
I have run into a couple of walls
Jim Croce
The Hard Way Every Time
The other thing that comes into play here is the models we see in things like films, which sometimes set rather unrealistic examples of what "love" and "relationships" are. Those are sold to both men and women, and may make us believe that some model of perfection exists - when it doesn't.
We are imperfect beings, and the people we decide to love are as well.
There are no knights in shining armor, nor fairy princesses , to be found in this enchanted kingdom of love we enter into. There are just people, imperfect people, who wish to have that thing most of us desire.
One person that we can be with, to spend the rest of our lives with, in love.
But that love is not something that's just the property of one person, it's the product of both people's effort and attention - or lack of same. It changes over time, as those people and their situations change over time.
You cannot love anyone until you first love yourself.
As Margo was referencing, one has to be vulnerable in the pursuit of that goal, and that's the greatest risk of all. Letting down that drawbridge allows the potential of great disappointment and pain, when one allows another imperfect human to gain access to your soft unprotected center.
The great irony is that leaving that drawbridge up means you can never truly experience love in a total sense. Part of you remains forever hidden from view, like a prisoner locked away in a tower.
The world we live in today is so much different than the one many of us grew up in. It's a much more hectic world, a much more complex world, and a much more dangerous one in many ways. Those things also enter into the equation, and pressure us in various ways.
For me, with my family background, I placed a critical importance on not getting divorced. I also placed a critical importance on being rational, and of avoiding the screaming and yelling I experienced over the course of so many years as a child in that emotional Stalingrad I called my childhood.
I placed a critical importance on not becoming an alcoholic, after having seen my Dad an what it did to him and our family.
Somewhere inside of me, I wanted to prove that I could overcome all of these things and meet a woman and be with her in a happy , healthy relationship until the day I died.
Silly ol' me. 
I did make seventeen years, and many people cannot say that.
When it fell apart, there was this rather ironic thing that occurred. I found myself, at age forty six, sitting in my small apartment all alone - and surrounded by books.
Exactly like my Dad.
In avoiding all of his "mistakes" , and making sure I would not repeat them, I had found myself at the same destination when the dust had cleared. I remember the night that this thought struck me, as I flash backed to being a little kid going over to see him at his apartment. It was like my doorbell had rung, and I had opened it to see my eight year old self looking up at me.
"Hi .....come on in Kid... Let's sit down and talk for a while! "
It was an epiphany, and it made me examine the road that had brought me here .
After that "conversation", I came to realize my part in my situation. It's rather easy to blame someone for your problems, and somewhat more difficult to reflect on that image in the mirror and it's responsibilities.
I realized that the "myth" of remaining together with someone forever had been a great source of the genesis of the reasons it died the death it did. Instead of standing up when needed, I'd avoided doing that because it risked ending this "victory" I would have accomplished had it lasted until my death.
I'd bound myself with my own chains as it were, and forgot I had the key in my hand.
I realized that very early on in the relationship I'd just seen end, I should have said goodbye to it. I didn't, and that's totally my responsibility. I sat there and let things occur that were the fault of no one else by me, and I'd refused to see that for a long time.
'Cause I've had my share of good intentions
And I've made my share of mistakes
And I've learned at times it's best to bend
'Cause if you don't well those are the breaks
Should have listened to all the things I was told
But I was young and too proud at the time
Now I look at myself to find
I learn the hard way ev'ry time
You can either choose to ignore life's lessons, and you will keep being offered a summer school course until you graduate with honors .....or die.
Life is risk, and one cannot live one's life without risk unless you want to spend it alone and isolated. That isn't life, it's existing.
If you want to love and to be loved, then you have to accept the thought of the pain that may bring. This isn't some Hollywood movie or enchanted land we live in.
And so from failure, one learns (if one is open to it) to not make the same mistakes again.
This doesn't mean you won't make others, and you will.
You can't let that fact stop you, and as Bucs so wisely said, you can't lose yourself in the process.
- Monty | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/18/2008 12:14:27 AM | It's interesting to see how the ~OP~ starts with legitimate question at the beginning of the thread and I understood why she has asked that question. After four pages of this thread, I came to realize that it would be OK to 'loose myself' in HIM, providing he is the right person for me. I can "loose myself" in HIM, because I have nothing to lose, since he cares for me , and loves me, I can 'fall onto him', I know he will 'catch me, and I will be safe'.
This thread really keeps me going, mainly because I started to understand more about myself. I don't think I need to explain myself that of course, before I will be able to completely open my heart, I will have to go through 'trial period', this is when both of us work on earning each other trust. Once this is established it is OK to slowly open your heart more and more, little by little. I think this is the point.
I see clearly, some of the mistakes I have done in the past, by opening myself too fast, this is an invitation to abuse. A good friend said that to me long time ago, but I still remember that: "Don't give your trust away so fast, let them earn it"...true La Jaconde, very true for you. Interesting, there are things we remember that were said to us, and other words are forgotten. Anyhoo, just writing this.
When ~OP~ wrote this:
One part of you clamors to be heard and responded to, and the other parts of you go into the accommodation mode. By continuing to compromise and deny important aspects of yourself you stay anxious and conflicted.
.... I see it now, it is because when one is in the wrong kind of relationship, this is when this would happen. I can also see, maybe what she was thinking that once in a relationship, one goes into this 'numb zone', meaning forgetting about oneself, but not as a result of him, but rather our own negligence of oneself. This is rather a reminder that we need to take responsibility for our own well-being in the relationship. We can't expect the other person to be guessing what we nee. I don't want to be splitting hair in her phrase. But I went back to the original question, and looked at it again.
Once, in a relationship I need to keep watering my own garden, I know for me, there is path I still need to walk through, personally I am talking about a path of an Artist, as it is something I have been getting ready to do. It takes tremendous amount of discipline and overcoming many obstacles, but it is about that - commitment to myself. There are going to be good days and bad days, what I need to remember is walking my path whether I am in a relationship or not. And hopefully when I am with Him, I still won't forget about that important aspect of myself.
I think perhaps this is what ~OP~ was referring to when she wrote the original post. So, I want to think about my relationship with him as an encouragement to what I need to accomplish in this lifetime and not as a distraction to a higher goal. No more thoughts.
La Jaconde | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/18/2008 5:20:26 AM | I posted this on the Native American Spirituality thread this morning, and suddenly thought to offer it here also for, to me , it really reflects so beautifully and sincerely what is being shared here. (I was given it by my 5 Rhythms dance teacher in Devon, England soon after it was published)...
"The Invitation"
It doesn't interest me what you do for a living. I want to know what you ache for, and if you dare to dream of meeting your heart's longing.
It doesn't interest me how old you are. I want to know if you will risk looking like a fool for love, for your dream, for the adventure of being alive.
It doesn't interest me what planets are squaring your moon. I want to know if you have touched the center of your own sorrow, if you have been opened by life's betrayals or have become shriveled and closed from fear of further pain!I want to know if you can sit with pain, mine or your own, without moving to hide it or fade it, or fix it.
I want to know if you can be with joy, mine or your own, if you can dance with wildness and let the ecstasy fill you to the tips of your fingers and toes without cautioning us to be careful, to be realistic, to remember the limitations of being human.
It doesn't interest me if the story you are telling me is true. I want to know if you can disappoint another to be true to yourself; if you can bear the accusation of betrayal and not betray your own soul; if you can be faithlessand therefore trustworthy.
I want to know if you can see beauty even when it's not pretty, every day,and if you can source your own life from its presence.
I want to know if you can live with failure, yours and mine, and still stand on the edge of the lake and shout to the silver of the full moon, “Yes!”
It doesn't interest me to know where you live or how much money you have. I want to know if you can get up, after the night of grief and despair, weary and bruised to the bone, and do what needs to be done to feed the children.
It doesn't interest me who you know or how you came to be here. I want to know if you will stand in the center of the fire with me and not shrink back.
It doesn't interest me where or what or with whom you have studied. I want to know what sustains you, from the inside, when all else falls away.
I want to know if you can be alone with yourself and if you truly like the company you keep in the empty moments.
by
Oriah Mountain Dreamer
copyright © 1999 by Oriah Mountain Dreamer. | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/18/2008 3:54:17 PM | monty-
As Margo was referencing, one has to be vulnerable in the pursuit of that goal, and that's the greatest risk of all. Letting down that drawbridge allows the potential of great disappointment and pain, when one allows another imperfect human to gain access to your soft unprotected center.
The great irony is that leaving that drawbridge up means you can never truly experience love in a total sense. Part of you remains forever hidden from view, like a prisoner locked away in a tower.
I feel I'm at the very beginning again.
Do I dare step through into the unknown?
Will someone be there to catch me if I fall?
I have fallen before, but caught myself before anyone could see.
But I haven't been here before - at this new door.
Is it time to open it and let love in?
Is it time to open it and let love out?
Is it time to let go and let myself fall and see what happens?
Maybe it's time to be free...finally....to be me. | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/18/2008 3:57:24 PM | | Well put OP. Lying about, suppressing, or hiding who you are is pointless. Things are the way they are at any given moment. To falsify yourself will sooner or later become a hindrance. | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/18/2008 5:41:54 PM | Taking risks is a part of life, above and beyond love and relationships.
What keeps people immobilized IMO is fear. At times people are so afraid of what may happen, they don't even consider that it may be good, may work out and may be a great thing. A new relationship, a new job, moving...fear isn't something to be afraid of. Yes I know how ironic that appears to be. Everyone's afraid of something, but the choices are to let your fears imprison you in some imagined "comfort zone" that you just stay in when you know you're not happy and want something else.
Some are afraid of success...what if it does work out, what if he/she does fall in love....AKKK...what if I get that promotion...AKK will I be worthy...what'll I do then?
The other choice is to make peace with your fears, realize they exist for a reason (self protection) and more often than not the things we fear are the "maybes" and "what ifs" that never happen. I work with a very small team, and everyone else is hits the "panic button" and are always negative. Truthfully it's the hardest aspect of my job. I've been labeled as the "calm, cool one" they freak out and I just say huh, and go to lunch. Alone. Leave the building, treat myself and read the newspaper.
People tend to do the same thing with "dating". A great first date often sends someone into terror mode. What did he/she REALLY think? Will they call, should I call...how long should I wait and what should I say...ehh.
My dear longtime friend monty...I've "borrowed" something he posted long ago. Be in the moment, I got it and it's so great because it's so simple. BE IN THE MOMENT, if it's email, phone calls, a face to face meet up, BE THERE. Enjoy it, what is now and don't stress or agonize over what may or may not happen, or how this person may or may not be right for you or fit into what you want or think you want.
It robs everyone of the enjoyment of the simple yet exquisite pleasure of being in the moment of interacting with another human being without unnecessary stressors. It could be a casual conversation in a waiting room or standing in line at the checkout. Riding in the elevator....every interaction doesn't have to "mean something" or lead to something else or continue. It can just be a great moment...a comment that makes someone snicker, or look at you and say wow ain't that the truth. A smile, a wink a nod...a thanks and enjoy your weekend.
Maybe I'm just a simple person, but there have been so many times that just at the right time, it's made my day. It's nothing much, maybe someone holding a door and waiting..I smile and say thanks and look them in the eye. Or someone's child in line is getting restless in line, or a checkout clerk that has just been verbally abused. Yeah I'll make people wait...haha..just for a moment, but I say something, get their attention.
It's paying it forward (loved the movie!!) And never fails when I'm feeling ehh..it always happens, someone will take a few seconds and acknowledge me. Too many stories...it's a momentary something. Puts that little "skip" in my step, a little mental upper that reinforces yet again...life and people are pretty amazing, it's so good and I just can't help but feel a little bit better.
I think everyone should print out "Be in the Moment" and print it, on very good stationery, frame it and make that their mantra. Being in the moment has done a lot for me. I try my best not to miss any chance for "being in the moment" if it's holding the door or the elevator, offering to help someone out to the car or hold something, talk to their crying child.
I can't say I've never neglected myself, I am aware of when I have and when I do. It doesn't make me happy and I reflect to where it doesn't happen for long. It may sound selfish, but I can only give others what I have myself, and my children were instrumental in pointing this out to me. They don't like it when I'm sad or withdrawn, they do their best and then I kick myself...I'm denying them being wrapped up in my own pity party. My kids are my best reflective mirror...GOD I love them too much. I'm such a better person for being blessed with having them in my life. Being here and knowing the people I have has been a blessing in my life, and continues to be.
When you deny yourself the momentary pleasures of interacting with others, you're denying them too. | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/18/2008 5:50:55 PM |
The other choice is to make peace with your fears, realize they exist for a reason (self protection)
Another excellent post Bucs...
Funny thing is... most of the reasons we have for our fears won't pass scrutiny.
A lot of what we are trying to protect ourselves from we simply don't need to.
Not to forget that when we attempt to block them out/protect ourselves from them.... we're also blocking ourselves from joy at the same time. The walls block life in both directions - I think we forget that most of the time. | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/18/2008 6:12:10 PM | Your last post bucksgirl ^^^ I hear ya girl. Very well said. I think there are already so many good things said in this thread, but we seem to be coming back. Why?
you said:
What keeps people immobilized IMO is fear. At times people are so afraid of what may happen, they don't even consider that it may be good, may work out and may be a great thing. A new relationship, a new job, moving...fear isn't something to be afraid of.
That is indeed true. There are some areas in my life where I have taken many risks, I took lots of them, I can honestly say I don't regret any of them. Apparently later on life people say that they don't regret what they did, they regret what they didn't do.
If I may add something to your post is to say that what stops people to go forward with anything that maybe a wonderful experience, is that they project their last failure into the next encounter, sometimes it can also be lack of trust in themselves. I am talking about the situation where you feel you want to go forward with this project, this relationship but you are paralyzed by your own belief system, unless you change it and reprogram it, it will stay the same. I think what many of us are doing before going forward, they would "wait and see" how things evolve, but this is really lying to yourself, because if you are not engaged fully in it, emerged and consumed by it, why even bother, forget about it.... I mean really, if you are withdrawn and passively looking at the event to evolve before you, it is like putting a cart in front of the horse. Why bother?
I put this on my profile: "to love like you never have been hurt before" | |
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| The Neglected Self
Posted: 7/20/2008 11:16:02 AM |
I love who he was and I loved who I was when I was with him.
Wow. Thank you for that. I am one who had lost my entire self in an abusive relationship. When it ended, I totally shut down (for several years). It took a founded relationship with God to bring 'ME' back and to begin to trust again.
I'm very open to who I am, my faults and my vulnerabilities. I recognize my insecurities when they 'pop up'. I'm very much a people pleaser at my own expense (co-dependent and, now, very much aware of it).
As a good friend said to me once "your man-picker is broke"! So, I try very hard to keep that in mind! And, through the past few years of dating, I have been slowly learning what I am looking for.
But, it always bothers me when I find myself saying "I won't settle". I try to keep myself in check about settling ...am I closing doors too soon? (What a roller-coaster ride with the combination of all the above 'issues'!). I , also, don't want to be looked at as one of those women who is being too picky and demanding (ah...still always questioning myself ....and wanting to get approval...lol)
Amazing, it just took that simple statement above to ding me in the head. I want to LOVE WHO I AM WHEN I'M WITH HIM. With my verbal abusive upbringing and past relationships, that is a concept that never occurred to me. My own thought process sometimes amazes me....lol
45 years old and still learning everyday....
Great Thread, thank you.
A slow learner,
Lisa  | |
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