|
|
|
|
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/18/2008 9:10:41 AM |
If the chemistry isn't there, and isn't so overwhelming that both people "just need" to act on it, then it never will be. "Waiting" won't bring it "over time" through some friendship process. One doesn't develop desire by eating more dinners together, or by going to flea markets. Friendship might, and friendship can be a good part of life, but it's not the same as a "romantic relationship".
True for you..and obviously, other people..not true for everyone...what annoys me isn't that someone feels that way..it's their inference that anyone who doesn't is bad/wrong/defective...this is an opinion based on your personal experiences..everyone doesn't have the same personal experiences..feelings or responses...
Which brings us to the OP and a simple response...
You are in Group A which wants sex right away..she is in Group B..which prefers to wait for any number of reasons...since I doubt in her circumstance she will change her
position...you have two choices...change yours..OR..find someone in GroupA ( which, I grant, may be a minority..but, at least you won't have to be upset about her behavior then) | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/18/2008 10:09:20 AM | | Maybe she prefers to "make love" rather than simply having sex! | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/18/2008 10:32:18 AM | She's hooped...if she had screwed you by the third date you'd be posting 'is she too easy' questions.
I find it refreshing to see a post about a person who wants to wait until she knows if she is in love with you, and vice versa.
I say Kudos to her, for taking the time she needs before feeling ready instead of jumping in with her eyes closed.
As for her saying she wants to call the shots...I think what she was saying is she not going to be pressured into anything, and again, good for her. It is her body, she does call the shots. As do you with yours. | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/18/2008 10:39:56 AM | Hmm if you are only seperated from your wife- my answer is to wait until you are divorced.
If in fact you are divorced and I am merely playing with the semantics, this is your 3rd date?
Why hurry?? Unless it's the 3rd date and it's taken 3 months to get to this point, then geeze, give her as much time as you feel comfortable giving her. | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/18/2008 3:57:28 PM |
And you say Paul is a red flag to her? Where are you getting that from? [/QUOTE] That's my opinion...like everyone else's...it's given in response to a post/question. My opinion is that the lady in question MAY see him as a big red flag because of her prior relationship. Yes, it's been 3 yrs since she's had sex, and yes, she might be feeling a vibe...but maybe him not completely divorced, although she might understand why, may just be a niggling issue for her. Just my opinion...(something I'll repeat ad nauseum because that's what these forums are...people's opinions about things). I don't answer questions like this and state "I KNOW I'm right, it's a fact." PFFFTT...who the heck am I? Just another POF'er responding to someone's question? Yep. Why assume the lady in question is wondering anything? You can guess all you want but why? For the same reasons we all post on the forums. Someone asks a question...they obviously want an answer that can't be given, validation for a thought or deed they have/done/are contemplating to do--many reasons right? If the person didn't want someone else's opinion/guess/thoughts/feedback...they wouldn't ask the question in a public forum where they know there's a chance that their question and response will be dissected and analyzed by us jr. psychiatrists. I say that slightly tongue in cheek but also realize that someone may indeed take what is said as fact or to heart. But no one can know that can they? At the heart of the matter, Nordic, Paul asked how long should I wait? He volunteered the tidbits that we're concerned about, as you say. He volunteered that he's been separated---he has been asked why so long--hasn't responded. He volunteered that she had been betrayed by her ex. He volunteered that he thought that if the feelings/vibe/whatever was there, why was she wanting him to wait. Did I base my response on what he posted? You betcha. I am expressing my opinions (there's that word again!) like others. If she indeed thought Paul is a red flag, why would she be in a realationship with him at all? 3 dates isn't a relationship...last time I checked. 3 dates are 3 dates...they are perhaps a foundation for a possible relationship...but they don't really constitute what most of us would call a relationship. Again...my op...oh you know what I'm gonna say. His reason for not being separated is not the issue here. The question was a completely different one. Hmmm...I'm gonna agree to disagree here. He brought it up--perhaps he's wondering somewhere underneath that perhaps that's what's wrong? Sure, he may have reassured her that he's not divorced and that the reason is sound. Yes, she might nod and agree...but he's wondering why hasn't she slept with me yet? Other women have done it (as written by the OP)...why not her? Maybe she's not really ok with the separated part--she did say her ex betrayed her...hmmm... But truly...that's just my take/thought/opinion on the question. And that's just what it is...mine. Just like you're free to express yours...I'm free to express mine.  | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/18/2008 4:09:13 PM | | So just massage her head and neck then perhaps the flame will get hotter. Many a man want to give a massage only in two places. Guess where they are on a female body? | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/18/2008 4:40:12 PM | | Hell if you enjoy being with her, I'd wait as long as it takes - what are you losing? If you didn't enjoy her company then waiting would be a total waste of time, but so would anything else you do with her. If you really want to have a long term relationship with her, and it sounds like you have every reason to want that, I'd let her set the pace. My reason is that it is rare that you meet some one that you share "chemistry" and enjoy her company, so if you dump her or ruin the relationship due to "sexual needs" you might be doing a lot dating before you end up where you are now. | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/18/2008 5:05:57 PM | Afashionlady,
I am not questioning your right to opinions and I'm glad you clarified that they are your opinons but you state them not as such. To tell someone that "to that lady, you are a big red flag" is not stating an opinon. It is stating something as a truth. I don't say "Germany is a country in Europe" as an opinion. I state it as the truth. Was it my opinon I would say "I think...." or "it might be...".
You also said "You're separated and all over her like a wet blanket after the 3rd date." I think that is making a huge assumption about something you know nothing. OP stated they cuddled and he asked a question. That was all. What I object to is when someone, like you did, make more out of something than what's actully there.
When I asked why she would at all be with him (in a relationship) if he is a big red flag, you only argue that I used the word relationship. Not what I actually commented on. Whatever you might think, they do have a relationship. What kind of relationship can be discussed but that was not the issue. If he is a red flag, why would she at all date him? That was the question you avoided.
I again say that the reason why he is not divorced is not the issue here. You said "perhaps he was..." Well, why not just ask him if you want to know? Why make your assumptions and form your opinons on things that you don't know much about?
I do think that if he for a minute had thought that him only eing separated could be the problem, he would have brought it up in his OP.
Again, you and everyone are entitled to their opinons. I'm merely objecting to stating them as truths and sometimes how they are delivered.
I repeat that there might be a reason he is not divorced that is none of our business. His new lady might very well be aware of it for all we know and okay with it. And I don't think that if she were concered about it, she would probably not have started to date him in the first place. She did say they are a good recepie. That sounds to me like she is hoping for a long term with him.
I think it's more constructive to OP and to us to not place value into a situation we don't really know that much about. If we all have our opinons and voice them we can discuss them amicably. But if we all post them as truths it's a bit more difficult to keep the peace. | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/18/2008 5:35:47 PM |
Again, you and everyone are entitled to their opinons. I'm merely objecting to stating them as truths and sometimes how they are delivered.
OK...if you believe that I believe what I say is a truth and I post it as a truth...ok. Me saying that the lady might think him being separated is a big red flag is me saying just that...nothing more. Nothing less. I'm sorry that you may not like my delivery...but oh well. Can't please everyone. No, I'm not being flip. What I'm being is someone who believes that expressing one's opinion isn't expressing a fact. I can't/won't change my delivery based on someone else's opinion of what I say. Would you? I would hazard a guess not.
You seem like a very intelligent lady who's posts I've enjoyed reading in other threads, and will continue to do so, since I sometimes agree with what you write. :shrugs: But that just me.
If we all have our opinons and voice them we can discuss them amicably. But if we all post them as truths it's a bit more difficult to keep the peace.
I don't ever remember causing a problem in this thread...so I'm not really sure what's up. And...I'm not gonna worry. It's not going to be a priority of mine to figure out why my response rattled you ma'am!
We can agree to disagree. All of us aren't ever going to be on the same thinking page at the same time. My response to the OP's question wasn't a truth. Again, I'm not quite sure where you're getting that from...but OK. If that's what you think, I can't try to change it.
As far as constructive, or destructive--the forums are a public gathering of OPINIONS. If my opinion bothers you, I'm sorry...but I won't take back what I think about a question. My opinion, in the end Nordic? It matters just as much as yours....
...Not much in the grand scheme of things that are truly worth being concerned about in this world of ours. | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/18/2008 6:07:21 PM | afashionlady,
This will be my last input in this discussion since I don't care to hog the space and make it a private exchange of thougths between you and I. Neither do I wish to come to odds with a person whom I have noticed in other threads and taken care to ponder her input.
I don't mean to offense but I think you might not properly read what I wrote. When I say you state your opinons as truths it it becuase you in that post actually did say "to that lady, you are a big red flag". In this post to me now you said "Me saying that the lady might think him being separated is a big red flag is me saying just that...nothing more" Yes you did, this time because you included the words MIGHT THINK. That makes all the difference. In your first post you said "To that lady you ARE...". Do you see the difference?
That is what makes one a stating of the truth and the other the stating of an opinon. Sematics? I don't think so. The language and the use of it is what we use to communicate and I think it's important to use it correctly to get the correct message across.
What I'm being is someone who believes that expressing one's opinion isn't expressing a fact Yes that is true and that's exactly what I just covered. If you have an opinon. State it as such. Don't state it as a fact. It doesn't sit right with the audicence. It's not about pleasing anyone. It's about making oneself clear about ones intentions.
No you have most certainly not caused any problems in this forum and I didn't mean you have. It was a general observation that it can rub people wrong and stir up emotions and unneeded arguments. Not everyone are capable of discussiong things without typing foul words to each other.
Your opinon does not bother me at all, you have some insighful comments and opinons but I would much rather read them stated as such.
I might check in on this thread in a few days but as I said, I will not hog it so I'm bowing out for now. | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/21/2008 4:18:14 AM | from brown eyed woman, msg 78:
As for her saying she wants to call the shots...I think what she was saying is she not going to be pressured into anything, and again, good for her. It is her body, she does call the shots. As do you with yours.
No. "Calling the shots" in this instance means that they will not only go slow, but that the exact progress (or retreat, pace, intensity, and initiatory boldness) will also be decided by her. He will be the passive tag-along, the grateful acceptor of whatever positive sexual mood she bestows upon him.
Now I ask you, in total honesty: how many women are turned on by a guy in a receptive sexual attitude, rather than in a bold initiatory one? It's at cross purposes. A man is supposed to be daring and dashing, brave and fearsome, protective, fighting for her honour, initiating all the little tangible gifts and activities and intangible feelings and niceties. But he is supposed to do a complete 180 when it comes to sexual desire and its expression, bottling it up in increasingly spiritual and sexless friendship. Its relationship bipolarity, and I have no admiration for a "man" that puts up with it (without good reason: perhaps she smelled a red flag with him that she's not revealing, to him OR herself).
"Calling the shots", specifically in this case, means he's on the hook indefinitely, because she's already told him that they'd be great together, but need "slow cooking". So she's specifically stating that they're already in exclusive mode (after three dates ( quite inappropriate for someone supposedly "cautious" after a three year desert). The dangerous precedent is set after three dates about how, when, and to what degree, sex will be negotiated. One understandably wonders whether or not he will have any valued, real unilateral "desire disclosure" in the future, and what HER tolerance level will be, and how that'll play out.
The issue, at bottom, isn't even about sex so much as it is about power trade-offs. | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/21/2008 8:41:45 AM | bigshrek
thank you! yes we want to be made love to. yes our minds are dying for an interesting loving man. | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/21/2008 9:15:42 AM | Dave1234 is an intelligent fella, BUT THIS IS IDIOTIC:
""""It's been three years since she has been intimate. That gives us a good idea of the importance/desire she places on sex."""
No Dave, go read your old deleted threads WOMEN LOVE SEX, I could name them all here they start with Z, and B, M, and A....They don't love jumping into bed after a couple dates.
So British chap, wait as long as you think she is worth it. OF course, if dave1234 sends a whole bunch of sex loving women your way, go for it.
It's been 3yrs for her, how many years for you dude, 2? Maybe that's how long you two should wait, split the difference.
DO NOT ASK HER "what's the problem" Thats immature highschool boy stuff. Its' only been three dates, and btw CAN YOU GIVE A GOOD MASSAGE. women don't like bad massages, maybe mediocre ones if they love you.
WHERE IS THE OP WHEN YOU NEED HIM? He's either been fuking her for a week straight now, or in a deep funk after telling her to move on since someone told him its obvious she doesn't like sex. Would one of you ladies between 35 and 50 in the UK send him a message to update us? I love it when my advice is the right one!
"""she wants to call the shots""" is just girl talk for "get me wet and horney". So don't worry about that. Be 'more romantic' yet aloof, on your next date. | |
|
| |
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/21/2008 10:34:54 AM | Although I've written my opinion in earlier posts, I'm still baffled by this statement..
she says she wants to call the shots, and gets scared when she goes out of her comfort zone?
Too bad the OP has been missing in action since he started the thread. It would be interesting to find out if she really did say she wanted to call the shots.
I find it a little hard to believe she would actually be that forward if she's only been out with the guy a few times.JMO | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/22/2008 2:07:25 AM |
(Msg 88) Dave1234 is an intelligent fella, BUT THIS IS IDIOTIC:
""""It's been three years since she has been intimate. That gives us a good idea of the importance/desire she places on sex."""
There's nothing idiotic about it. She said she is "into" the guy. So, she's found a guy she likes. She's interested in pursuing a relationship and she hasn't had sex in three years.
DO NOT ASK HER "what's the problem" Thats immature highschool boy stuff.
Wrong, again. It's called being mature. Men and women, in a romantic relationship, have sex. Either there is a reason she doesn't want to or she just doesn't care about sex and, yes, there are people who just don't care about sex. If her "slow cooking" remark means she wants to know him better there are ways to get to know someone.
When I met my wife we decided to alternate staying at each others place. People can offer a guest room or sleep together without having sex. Get up in the morning together, go to work, return and spend the evening and night with the other person. After one week, probably less, one will know enough about the other person.
Ever have family stay a few days? Try it. You'll know enough about the other person, guaranteed! | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/22/2008 4:29:25 AM |
Men and women, in a romantic relationship, have sex. Either there is a reason she doesn't want to or she just doesn't care about sex and, yes, there are people who just don't care about sex.
I want to associate with, and expand, Dave1234's remarks.
It's the "immature high school boy" referenced in someone's post, who hasn't yet figured it out, and the same is true for young women. It is at that point in life, and only then, that a boy and girl can have overwhelming desire for each other, based on sexual attraction, but want to "wait" or "take it slow". That's true for religious/moral/cultural reasons, as well as being at the point in life, where they are trying to figure it all out.
Mature adults, if they are sexually driven and attracted to each other, have sex . For many, that's the motivation to seek a romantic relationship in the first place, as opposed to finding a friend to "do stuff with".
There are those people who, as Dave1234 referenced, who "don't care about sex", and if that whole process of eventually having sex, after some process of enjoying going to flea markets so much that they want to be able to call it a "romantic" relationship works, that's fine. I read some posts, where it seems that the role of sex in the poster's "ideal" relationship comes somewhere down the list of priorities from watching TV together.
So, by "taking it slow", at best the OP may end up with a partner who is indifferent to sex, and will use it to control him. At worst, he's stuck with a prude who "just isn't that into him", and is looking to have someone in her life to carry the heavy parcels, take care of the car, and mow the lawn. | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/22/2008 5:56:53 AM |
So, by "taking it slow", at best the OP may end up with a partner who is indifferent to sex, and will use it to control him. At worst, he's stuck with a prude who "just isn't that into him", and is looking to have someone in her life to carry the heavy parcels, take care of the car, and mow the lawn.
Ok, so lets see if I understand here..
He's separated, not divorced, and dating a woman who has been out of a relationship for three years from a man that betrayed her. They've been on THREE dates. She wants to take it slow. He states that she CLEARLY has the hots for him, which tells me she has shown affection, and let him know in some way that she's willing to be intimate, just not too quickly.
SO..... because of all this, she's indifferent to sex, using it to control him, and a prude that just isn't into him.WTF??
I don't disagree with anyone that says sex is an important part of a relationship. Its EXTREMELY important. What I disagree with is the fact that if a woman actually wants to make sure she likes the guy before taking the next step, she gets labelled a cold fish.
What men have a tendency to forget is that most (not all) women would actually like to have sex with a person they trust. I'll use myself as an example here....
I know I'm the type of person that HAS to care for, or at least very much like, the person I choose to be intimate with. Sometimes it takes 3 dates, sometimes it doesn't.
I know the way I'm wired.... once sex enters the picture, I get attached to the person even more. Why would I start to be intimate with a man when I don't know him well enough to know if he'll stick around?
If we sleep with a guy too early, and he up and leaves after, its our fault for not keeping our legs closed and getting to know someone better. If we don't, we're prudes.....you really can't win. | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/22/2008 6:39:46 AM | Oh please! Just because she didn't jump into bed with him on their third date, doesn't mean this woman doesn't have a healthy sex drive, or that she's a control freak! Frankly, that's ridiculous.
OP, if you truly like this woman then cowboy up and stick around awhile to see where it goes. If she's worth it, you'll wait, but that's your call.
 | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/22/2008 6:42:47 AM | I know I'm the type of person that HAS to care for, or at least very much like, the person I choose to be intimate with. Sometimes it takes 3 dates, sometimes it doesn't.
I know the way I'm wired.... once sex enters the picture, I get attached to the person even more. Why would I start to be intimate with a man when I don't know him well enough to know if he'll stick around?
If we sleep with a guy too early, and he up and leaves after, its our fault for not keeping our legs closed and getting to know someone better.
People are motivated by a combination of hope and fear, a positive or a negative. You succinctly verbalized that, for many, what matters most is "taking counsel of your fear". You're "afraid" to have sex "too soon", because "what if" he doesn't "stick around"?
On the other hand, if sex were really important and enjoyable, wouldn't you look at it as something wonderful in the now, that you hope will last?
What is "lost" that you already have, if you have sex, but he doesn't stick around? Is it that you feel "rejected"? Or are hearing "old tapes" that "good girls don't"? If sex is a driving need for you, you'd want to fulfill it, if you're strong attracted, and not would be an indication that either a) you're not that attracted or b) sex isn't a strong need.
The reality is that I have never, ever "asked" for sex. On the other hand, with every woman I have dated post-college, with whom there was strong attraction, sex happened naturally at the beginning of the relationship. It's simply not an issue, and I was honestly surprised, when I first started reading the POF fora, that there seem to be so many adults that see sex in a relationship as some sort of "issue".
That's kind of the point here. If sex becomes an "issue", then the other is not a match. It doesn't matter what the attitudes and importance of sex are for each person, so long as they're in line. There are those, who have the goal of "companionship", and for whom sex is not a major factor. That's fine, and could lead to a companionship based connection that is satisfactory to both. Others may share a religious belief that sex outside of marriage is "wrong", and so long as they both share that view, that, too, could lead to a good relationship. However, a "disconnect" in sexual attitudes causes the kind of angst that the OP indicated.
Ironically, if sex is "withheld", it can become the "goal", the end unto itself, and once that goal is achieved, the feeling of intensity that came from the "just out of reach" dynamic goes away. Often, then, so does the one who was denied, and that, of course, "validates" the notion of the one withholding sex, that she should have "waited", to be more "sure" that he'll stick around. | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/22/2008 6:46:11 AM |
If we sleep with a guy too early, and he up and leaves after, its our fault for not keeping our legs closed and getting to know someone better. If we don't, we're prudes.....you really can't win
Yeah Tee..that's the biggest problem..no matter what you do some segment of the male population will rag on you for it...
That's why I just stick to what works for me..and find like minded guys..
Some men will refuse to see things from another perspective ( or a female one), and rather than just acknowledging that some people feel/think different..they debase you for not agreeing with them...to me..that is just another shame/guilt tactic...
What is "lost" that you already have, if you have sex, but he doesn't stick around? Is it that you feel "rejected"? Or are hearing "old tapes" that "good girls don't"?
Neither..and it is really silly of you to think you can presume to kow how other people feel..or specifically, how women feel...again..I don't care that you see it different..I care that you ridicule and insult those WOMEN who may disagree..or try to tell them how they SHOULD feel or act...
Sex is just not a reacreational activity for me and lots of women ( and quite a few men)..so, no..the sex alone is not enough...gratuitous sex gets very old, very fast...and has limited value..that is my opinion.. | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/22/2008 7:23:22 AM |
What is "lost" that you already have, if you have sex, but he doesn't stick around? Is it that you feel "rejected"? Or are hearing "old tapes" that "good girls don't"? Neither..and it is really silly of you to think you can presume to kow how other people feel..or specifically, how women feel...again..I don't care that you see it different..I care that you ridicule and insult those WOMEN who may disagree..or try to tell them how they SHOULD feel or act...
Zangie, I think it's wrong for anyone to claim that his/her relationship needs, or how he/she handles sexuality is the "univerally right" one. The statement that you quoted of mine, though, was taken out of context.
The point is that human motivation is always based on a combination of hope and fear, in response to perception of need. When it comes to sex in relationships, it's entirely possible that a person doesn't have a strong need, or strong attraction to the other, in which case, he/she isn't "motivated" one way or the other.
If there is attraction, though, then one's subsequent actions are going to either be "hopeful" or "fearful". That doesn't mean that the person who prioritizes his/her fears doesn't have "hope", or that one who will respond to hope, doesn't have some fears. It's merely to observe that one or the other comes first. Those who feel strong attraction, but want to wait, have prioritized caution. Those who act on strong attraction have prioritized hope.
I'm not saying whether someone "should" be attracted, or whether it's "right" or "wrong" to respond to one's fears or one's hopes. I'm merely observing that incompatible needs, unequal levels of attraction, or dissimilar response to motivations create incompatibility.
Someone with whom there is an incompatible view of sexuality, isn't "wrong". She's just "wrong for me". We're not "supposed" to be compatible with everyone we meet. I wouldn't have relationship compatibility with 95% of the women in the world. Part of the point of dating is to discover compatibility, or lack thereof. | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/22/2008 7:38:21 AM |
Notice after 2 pages we haven't heard back from him.
I can't imagine why... | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/22/2008 7:52:20 AM | On the other hand, if sex were really important and enjoyable, wouldn't you look at it as something wonderful in the now, that you hope will last?
Its important and enjoyable to me when I'm with a partner I care for. To me, having sex with somebody I don't care for, or trust, is "empty". That doesn't make me cold, it makes me selective. I assure you, that regardless of how much time I choose to wait, there is nothing wrong with my sex drive. The fact that you believe that a woman can't be passionate because she chooses to be selective about her partners is laughable.
People are all wired differently. I don't consider sex a recreational activity to be shared with just anyone. I'm not going to judge you because you feel differently, but DON'T insult others, by calling them prudes, manipulative, and controlling just because they don't share your views.
I suppose if you want to get technical about it, I could say that your way of thinking is even more manipulative, because you're making me feel like there is something wrong with me because I choose not to have sex with a partner too early in the relationship, no? | |
|
| how long should I wait?
Posted: 7/22/2008 8:11:31 AM | | Are you kidding me!!!! Who do you think you are???? You aren't divorced, how can you ask this woman for anything other than friendship? And for that matter, don't you think ending one relationship before jumping into bed with someone else would be the smart thing to do? Talk about having no respect for your wife. I realize that there are two sides to every story, but come on Dave, think about it, what are you doing? | |
|
|
| Page 4 of 6
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 |
|
Home
login 
