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| tithing to the church
Posted: 7/29/2008 12:01:29 PM | What would you say about a church very aggressively pursuing an idea of parishioners signing obligatory note worth thousands of dollars. Meaning they are obligated by law (enforcible with collections agency) to pay off exurbirant amount.
http://dioceseofbrooklyn.org/about/development/annual_appeal/2005_ACA_Summary_Report.pdf
It happens in my parish, started few years back and now I feel extremely uncomfortable going to a house of worship to be pestered by constant appeals for more cash.
I stopped going.
I tried googling it, but seems there is very little information on the phenomenon. It is called "a capital campaign", sometimes "everything is possible with God" and the parish is Our Lady Queen Of Martyrs in Forest Hills, NY. | |
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 7/29/2008 12:13:14 PM |
What would you say about a church very aggressively pursuing an idea of parishioners signing obligatory note worth thousands of dollars.
I wouldn't put it past the First Baptist Church of downtown Jacksonville, Florida to be doing something like that. They're already known for billing people for their tithes. | |
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 7/30/2008 11:20:36 AM |
I would like to hear your views on tithing to the church. Fellow christians in my church keep badgering me about giving a tenth of my earning to collection. I earn very little money and although i do give and help the church,i think that you should give as little or as much as you please/can afford, and i am rather offended in their guilt trip manner.
OP:
First off, they shouldn’t be telling you to give ten percent of your earnings, but most of the time they do, hey, I say that is on them. Secondly, do you read the bible or do you believe what the priest, pastor, minister, etc tells you. It just sounds to me like you actually haven’t seen that giving ten percent of your earnings is truly in the Bible. Once you understand what it truly means, you will not have a problem doing so.
So let me see if I can try to break it down for ya…
If you’ve read the bible I am sure you would realize that this is the only part of it throughout both Old and New Testament that he asks us to test him by doing what he is asking us to do. Malachi 3:10 “10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, That there may be food in My house, And try Me now in this, Says the LORD of hosts...”
Genesis 14:20; 28:20-22 -- Both Abraham and Jacob gave tithes prior to the giving of the law at Sinai. Leviticus 27:30-33 -- Moses' law required Israelites to give a tithe (tenth) of their increase to support the Levites (Num. 18:21-32; Mal. 3:7-10). In addition Israelites also gave free-will offerings, taxes, and other gifts to support the combined religious service and civil government (Ex. 35:29; I Chron. 29:1-19; Deut. 12:5-19; 14:22-29; Neh. 10:34-39).
1 Corinthians 16:1,2 -- On the first day of the week, each one should give as prospered. Some people are comparatively prosperous and should give more; others are comparatively poor and should give less. Acts 11:29 -- Every man determined to give according to his ability. (See also 2 Cor. 8:12; Mark 12:41-44; Matt. 25:14-30.) 2 Corinthians 9:6,7 -- We should give generously as we purposed in our hearts, not grudgingly or of necessity, but cheerfully.
However, thanks to the Ultimate Sacrifice: Jesus; churches today have no right to force Christians to tithe, The invitation to follow this commandment shouldn’t be any more important than the one to follow the rest of the commandments.
This does not mean we are free to give less than 10%. It might mean we should give more than that. We should give as prospered and purposed in heart.
You will understand this only if you ever do give it from the heart, then you too will confirm His promise. You see, God doesn’t need your money, after all: all of it is made by Him for Him.
Most people fail to see what it truly represents. When you give ten percent of your income as He tells us to do we are telling Him that we trust Him to takes through regardless of how much we needed that money we gave to cover our basic necessities. What we are truly saying is: Lord, I know you will provide.
We all know that to do His work requires money, church operating expenses, resources for the communities, etc. Do not worry about what the church does with your tithes, is their own decision. It doesn’t affect you; after all, they will have to give account of their deeds to Him as well, worry about what you will tell Him when the time comes… 
Additionally, most “Christians” fail to realize that every time He does multiply blessings is that one isn’t supposed to store it in your savings. It is only to do His works and bless others continuously. Though many will argue this, as I understand it, you cannot have money and have God. It is one or the other…
Although, many will beg to differ, I really do believe that tithing isn’t necessarily giving money to a church; but you could also help families in need, and this can’t be hard to do since if you were to look around there is so much need around us, if we’d only stop to look around us…
Personally, there has been times that I have given the last $20.00 bill I have had and don’t ask me where it came from, but I was blessed enormously, took care of my responsibilities and plenty more for others. It is as He tells us it is; you should try it sometime…
 
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 7/30/2008 10:58:52 PM | Not only should you tithe 10% to your church, but 10% of your gross pay, not net pay. I use to think I couldn't afford to tithe, but once I started and God blessed my life, I realized I couldn't afford not to tithe.. It amazes me that people who support the idea of tithing only give 10%. If god blesses the cheerful giver why not give 20%, 30%, 50% or 80% and live in poverty like the people the church is suppose to help? Why live better than those that have the least among you? Or is it that by giving 10% you feel you are doing your duty to god and he will understand why you are buying that new house, car, furniture, clothes, taking that expensive vacation, or throwing that party for your friends, etc., instead of giving all you can give? | |
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 7/31/2008 11:50:58 AM |
It amazes me that people who support the idea of tithing only give 10%. If god blesses the cheerful giver why not give 20%, 30%, 50% or 80% and live in poverty like the people the church is suppose to help? Why live better than those that have the least among you? Or is it that by giving 10% you feel you are doing your duty to god and he will understand why you are buying that new house, car, furniture, clothes, taking that expensive vacation, or throwing that party for your friends, etc., instead of giving all you can give?
Let me guess which side of the table you are on...
Thar's just it, no matter how much you give, He always multiplies many times over what you give and it sort of turns into a circle; you help many others and He helps you, it is almost addictive. You should try it sometime...
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 7/31/2008 2:41:47 PM |
He always multiplies many times over what you give and it sort of turns into a circle; you help many others and He helps you, it is almost addictive. You should try it sometime... So, if I give $100 I get back $200. The gospel of prosperity IMO is a religious pyramid scheme with the clergy at the top. | |
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/1/2008 3:45:42 AM |
The gospel of prosperity IMO is a religious pyramid scheme with the clergy at the top.
Not even that, it's more pathetic. People are duped into giving that really can't afford it and they're deluded into thinking that every mundane thing they do to get on their feet financially is God blessing them because they gave. An out of work person goes to church and gives 10 bucks that he can't afford. Then by chance he gets a job, that's seen as not his efforts of going out and applying ( which is what he would've done anyway), that's the Lord blessing him, so he's of course urged to give more. Then 6 months later, let's say he gets a raise (which he probably would've gotten anyway on just about any job after that much time), then of course, he's pressured to give more.
I have a problem with this as it discourages rational critical thinking and encourages magical thinking.
Funny you should mention pyramid schemes. Religious zeal and pyramid schemes go hand in hand. Ever been to an Amway (Quickstar) convention? It has all the trappings of an Evangelical meeting and many of the top people in those organizations are UberChristians. | |
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/5/2008 2:42:09 PM |
The gospel of prosperity IMO is a religious pyramid scheme with the clergy at the top.
Perhaps, but don’t worry about what others do with the money you give, because you aren’t giving it to them, you are simply being obedient, as we should be with the rest of His word. Again, this is by no means the only area where we need to be obedient; this is just a tiny little step.
You see, I used to think the opposite, I thought that if I gave money, I was compensating for my inequity. Little did I know…
Then when I got to know Him a bit more, I went to the other side, right where you are. What can I say, it is a very comfortable excuse and no action from one is required. Trust me, I came up with endless arguments on this one; I mean is not like it’s on the Ten Commandments right? I do know what you mean…
If you are a believer, I am sure that He will convince you eventually of what you need to do for Him and Him only; He does know a thing or two about miracles. And if you aren’t, please do keep your money, in fact I wouldn’t waste a cent on anything other than basic necessities, after all, if you don’t believe God exists, and you are all you have, I guarantee you, you will need it…
Not even that, it's more pathetic. People are duped into giving that really can't afford it and they're deluded into thinking that every mundane thing they do to get on their feet financially is God blessing them because they gave. An out of work person goes to church and gives 10 bucks that he can't afford. Then by chance he gets a job, that's seen as not his efforts of going out and applying ( which is what he would've done anyway), that's the Lord blessing him, so he's of course urged to give more. Then 6 months later, let's say he gets a raise (which he probably would've gotten anyway on just about any job after that much time), then of course, he's pressured to give more.
I have a problem with this as it discourages rational critical thinking and encourages magical thinking.
Sounds like a personal problem to me…
Seriously though, recognizing you have a problem is the first step towards recovery….
Sorry, I couldn’t resist…
Funny you should mention pyramid schemes. Religious zeal and pyramid schemes go hand in hand. Ever been to an Amway (Quickstar) convention? It has all the trappings of an Evangelical meeting and many of the top people in those organizations are UberChristians.
It is quite possible that over the years the money that we give to any church has been “redirected” if you will, and yet, why would I worry about what they do with it; when confronted He will ask me about my actions, not the reasons I thought I shouldn’t do what He told me to do…
Moreover, personally, I have never known of anyone first hand, and I am willing to bet neither do you. If I know my kind, and I like to think that I do; most of us tend to follow the pack, the level of conviction usually is determined by the numbers. The majority of the time, our “knowledge” isn’t truly our experience; these are for the most part assumptions. Now, you do know what assumptions are right?
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/6/2008 6:40:15 AM |
Perhaps, but don’t worry about what others do with the money you give, because you aren’t giving it to them, you are simply being obedient, as we should be with the rest of His word. Again, this is by no means the only area where we need to be obedient; this is just a tiny little step.
YOU are the one in need of recovery. Can you hear yourself? Give money, but don't worry about where it goes?
Moreover, personally, I have never known of anyone first hand, and I am willing to bet neither do you.
This makes absolutely no sense. Know anyone first hand??? What are you talking about? | |
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/6/2008 7:53:45 AM | forumschick.
i see what you are saying.tithing is a faith in god.however, thithing is also to be used as jesus would use it.if you have knowledge of or think it may not be being used as such, and you do nothing to amke it known. you are sinning as the people spending it improperly are. the exact verse doesnt come to me,but knowledge of a wrong doing and not exposing it is as much of a sin as the wrong doing itself. | |
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/9/2008 5:41:57 PM |
YOU are the one in need of recovery. Can you hear yourself? Give money, but don't worry about where it goes?
I have never claimed I didn't need help; whatever gave you the impression? And neither did I think that doing anything God tells us to do, could help me get certified...
You know what though; I think there is a better chance to certify anyone simply for being objective these days…
“First hand” You never heard that one huh? What I meant to say was I have no experience with it personally, as in, I don’t know for a fact that any members of the clergy are misusing the money from tithes.
In other words, I do not operate under assumptions or other's opinions based on theirs or their friend’s perceptions of reality. In fact, this usually tends to be almost an invitation to attempt to prove you wrong on anything really...
Hey, I know, I do wonder about myself sometimes too...
I am not surprised that anything I say is senseless to you; that actually makes perfect sense to me. Because it sounds to me that you could be a person who operates in a different manner; unless of course you would like to tell me about your personal experience with corruption at church?
Not from your friends, wife, or ex-wife or anyone you know, and it doesn't have to be the whole story, just the high lights of your "first hand" experience with it...
Yeah, I Didn't think so...
Moreover, what I say doesn't have to make sense to you, it does to me and let me tell you, that is pretty much all I need because I don't expect you to agree with me, and I am certainly not trying to convince anyone to think the way I do. I was simply explaining to all how it is that my "senselessness" makes perfect sense to me.
Most people complain about tithing to the church and use it as an excuse not to, I know, I used to do that too. However, I stopped worrying about other people’s wrongdoing, since I have plenty of my own and need to work on before I dare correct others…
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/9/2008 7:24:19 PM |
Not from your friends, wife, or ex-wife or anyone you know, and it doesn't have to be the whole story, just the high lights of your "first hand" experience with it...
Yeah, I Didn't think so...
Being a TV news cameraman for almost 30 years, I've personally covered more than a dozen cases of church corruption on everything from fraud,embezzlement, misuse of funds to child molestation. None of those cases were anything personal to me other than the fact that they all involved very large,popular churches of all denominations and all ethnic/socio-economic backgrounds. | |
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/9/2008 8:35:51 PM | Being a TV news cameraman for almost 30 years, I've personally covered more than a dozen cases of church corruption on everything from fraud,embezzlement, misuse of funds to child molestation. None of those cases were anything personal to me other than the fact that they all involved very large,popular churches of all denominations and all ethnic/socio-economic backgrounds.
i am sure you have seen charities that have did the same. should we stop helping charities aswell? | |
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/10/2008 7:31:17 AM | | The bible does not encourage tithing to the CHURCH - the bible encourages tithing to GOD. This means giving to the poor, the destitute and to various other needy people, reasons, charities etc aswell as the church, if you so wish. Tithing to god means looking after and taking care of the people in the lower classes to you, and it doesnt just mean in monetary terms, labour, time, even words - if done i nthe faith for God is Tithing to god. So whenever you are walking, and see someone hurt, or sick, always give them your ear - you dont have to tithe to the church - just to God. | |
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/10/2008 7:32:44 AM | | Besides, even in the early days of post-Abraham judaeism, 10% of the peoples' earnings went to the temple, who gave it all to the unclean, widows, orphans etc. | |
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/10/2008 7:52:50 AM | Maybe I missed it in the posts, but just exactly how do these multiple people know how much or little you give? If you give in cash, they have no way in knowing. If you give by check, then only the ones who count up the money know.
Do you go around telling your fellow members how much or how little you give? The guilt trip thing sounds almost brought on by yourself. Or is it a dedication to someone higher that makes you feel guilty?
Liz | |
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/10/2008 8:19:45 AM | Do you go around telling your fellow members how much or how little you give? The guilt trip thing sounds almost brought on by yourself. Or is it a dedication to someone higher that makes you feel guilty?
Liz
i dont give out of guilt from god. i give becaue of the love god gives. even before i gave anything. | |
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/10/2008 10:00:09 AM |
i am sure you have seen charities that have did the same. should we stop helping charities aswell?
Of course not. Yet I have to question a church's motives when their buildings (not the plural) cover several city blocks and they have TV production studios and facilities that rival many local stations as well as amusement park rides that are close to Disney level and pastors that live better than some heads of state. Especially when they pay no taxes.
I also have a problem with the fact that a church or other religious group have ulterior motives with their charities. It's called proseltyzing. At what cost is their charity? Their ridiculous dogma has to not only be tolerated (which is fine by me, I can tolerate their nonsensical beliefs when it's no one is trying to sell me on them) but the cost of their charity is their need win converts. I for one, feel that we have far too many dogmatic religious doctrines and beliefs floating around, and not enough practical, scientific thought is allowed to adress societal ills.
Tithing to god means looking after and taking care of the people in the lower classes to you, and it doesnt just mean in monetary terms, labour, time, even words - if done i nthe faith for God is Tithing to god. So whenever you are walking, and see someone hurt, or sick, always give them your ear - you dont have to tithe to the church - just to God.
   If there was more of this belief and less of the "make out your check to (insert church name here)", I would have more respect for churches. | |
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/10/2008 1:52:41 PM | | tithing is an old testament commandment. Read Galatians. We are no longer bound by law. Were that so, we would then have no need for grace. There is no implication of tithe in the early church - rather many endorsements for giving. | |
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/11/2008 1:29:34 AM | | I was always told as an Anglican that it's important to give to the church. I also feel that if you simply can't afford it all the time, there is nothing wrong with that. There is the idea that you should give what you can. I always try to give something when I go, which is unfortunately not as often as I like given my work schedule and school schedule. | |
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/11/2008 10:30:29 AM |
Of course not. Yet I have to question a church's motives when their buildings (not the plural) cover several city blocks and they have TV production studios and facilities that rival many local stations as well as amusement park rides that are close to Disney level and pastors that live better than some heads of state. Especially when they pay no taxes.
I hate to point out the obvious my friend, but the level of credibility of the media and churches are pretty much the same, non existent. I find it particularly ironic that you have not a problem observing the flaws of any set of beliefs which clearly defy your own and yet ask for credibility for an institution as equally flawed simply because you advocate it.
I also have a problem with the fact that a church or other religious group have ulterior motives with their charities. It's called proseltyzing. At what cost is their charity? Their ridiculous dogma has to not only be tolerated (which is fine by me, I can tolerate their nonsensical beliefs when it's no one is trying to sell me on them) but the cost of their charity is their need win converts. I for one, feel that we have far too many dogmatic religious doctrines and beliefs floating around, and not enough practical, scientific thought is allowed to adress societal ills.
Churches have ulterior motives which involves possibly individual financial gain, as opposed to what, oh I don’t know, how about commercials, or political parties, or ratings?
I am sorry; I fail to see the difference…
Although I agree with you on the fact that there are entirely way too many unnecessary religious doctrines, I must disagree with you on thinking that Science could even begin to fix what is wrong with our humanity or lack thereof.
In fact, I honestly believe that it is Science indeed what has enabled us to play God long before we were worthy of being human…
If there was more of this belief and less of the "make out your check to (insert church name here)", I would have more respect for…
Contrary to popular belief not many Churches these days do not stand for what He does, and yet it isn’t a justification for your disobedience to God. Tithing simply stands for you designing the funds to do His work, and I think if you knew anything about God you could accomplish that without that much effort.
Sadly, the longer I live the more I am convinced that, the fewer the facts the stronger the prejudice.
I tell you what, do it in His name or attribute it to your own moral system, either way; let’s do something good for those of which are less fortunate than we are, shall we?
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/11/2008 10:36:28 AM | tithing is an old testament commandment. Read Galatians. We are no longer bound by law. Were that so, we would then have no need for grace. There is no implication of tithe in the early church - rather many endorsements for giving.
I beg to differ...
1 Corinthians 16:1,2 -- On the first day of the week, each one should give as prospered. Some people are comparatively prosperous and should give more; others are comparatively poor and should give less.
Acts 11:29 -- Every man determined to give according to his ability. (See also 2 Cor. 8:12; Mark 12:41-44; Matt. 25:14-30.)
2 Corinthians 9:6,7 -- We should give generously as we purposed in our hearts, not grudgingly or of necessity, but cheerfully.
Semantics...
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/11/2008 4:40:26 PM | George Fox, the founder of the Quaker sect in about the 1650s in England, also did not believe in tithing. The Quakers suffered a great deal under the Puritans of the time as well as other prominent sects for this and other reasons. The more I read about George Fox and the early Quakers, and the more I compare their doctrines with those of other denominations, the more I realize that I have always felt very much the same way they did. Also in looking at the deeds throughout history of various groups that have claimed to be true Christians, and comparing them to the history of the Quakers, I learned that the Quakers were the most hated and persecuted group in England at the time! Yet they only sought peace with all men, and God. The most fascinating point that George Fox made about spirituality, was that we are all imbued with The Spirit of God, and that we should look within to find truth. True spirituality then does not arise from outward sources and the material trappings of Christianity, such as the building services are held in etc. The Quakers looked mainly to the words of Jesus Himself, and to the first century church as described in the book of acts in matters of doctrine and conduct.
The following link explains his view of the subject, some of which is from his own writings.
http://www.hallvworthington.com/George_Fox_Selections/foxtithing.html | |
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| tithing to the church
Posted: 8/12/2008 3:58:23 PM | I was always told as an Anglican that it's important to give to the church. I also feel that if you simply can't afford it all the time, there is nothing wrong with that. There is the idea that you should give what you can. I always try to give something when I go, which is unfortunately not as often as I like given my work schedule and school schedule.
As an Anglican, did they ever tell you to read the Bible?
If you do ever come across one, do read the references which have been provided on this forum and you will understand that what you "feel" and "think" about its context is irrelevant, what simply matters is whether or not you will do what is asked of you in the bible, not what you have “understood” from your rather “relaxed” interpretation of it....
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