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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 7:40:05 AM | You stick to your guns and what you believe, Rossal! There ARE men out there for us. Men that still appreciate a an old-fashioned type lady whose values and morals seem to belong to yesteryear!
Sherry | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 7:44:06 AM | Women are what they are and so are men. For whatever reason, evolution, hormones, childhood traumas, too many fairy tales, abusive marriages and so on, each of us is our own unique variation on humanity in general and our gender in particular. Every relationship between a particular man and a particular woman is many things, some of them beyond description. One of those things is a bargain about who will be what to whom. We can either take this bargain for granted or get pretty clear about it; I prefer the latter. 
Like Desert Wildflower, I did what I thought a good husband and father was supposed to do for 20 years, give or take. Of course I made assumptions about what I was going to receive in return and when it was not forthcoming, I was less than pleased. However I came to understand that the situation was of my own making. We chose each other to be parents and partners in life without much discussion of what each of us was willing to give and expected in return. That was as much my fault as hers. Had we had such a conversation, we would not have spent twenty unhappy years struggling over whose agenda was more important.  
From my point of view this is not an issue of "All men are ..." or "All women are ..." It is an issue of so many opportunities, so many choices in priorities, so many cultures, so many life styles that nothing can be taken for granted or assumed. When a white, anglo-saxon protestant, computer-geek, country-boy prince awakens an african-american, new-age, artsy, urban sleeping beauty with a kiss, isn't there a lot to be talked about? If we choose to enjoy the moment and avoid the hard work of honest communication and true compromise, can we blame anyone but ourselves? | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 8:06:41 AM |
Curls,
As like most of us, there are a myriad of suitors more than willing to make their feeble attempt to seduce us into their beds. That is not the issue here. What we are talking about is finding a man of substance that really genuinely has the ability to care for a partner, to possibly bond, create something a bit deeper.
I spent years cooking delicious meals, lighting candle, buying massage oils, making sure I had the "right"****ail for him, the "right" music, the "right" sexy dress, the hair , the
body, the whole deal. But in the end, what was it all about? Sorry to be crude but a good fvck, an overnight companion and then back to my own world because he just can`t be bothered by a realtionship. And if he did want one, it was on his terms, usually on my buck. Such is life for the "liberated" woman.
If that is what you want, go for it. It will be good for a few sh!ts and giggles but tht is about it. Certainly don`t ever expect any kind of loyalty or care from the majority of
men.
Desert, I was actually commenting on the part of the thread where feminism/equality is being blamed for the lack of romance. I'm not as jaded as your response indicates. I'm eternally optimistic and a genuinely happy person. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 8:07:07 AM |
these men are free in a way that no group of people has ever been."
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. . . .
And the cynical will never find romance.
Which is a pity, 'cause romance is simply the deepest sharing of the soul possible, an honoring of each by the other, a respect for each other's core and core values, and a willingness to share and care in sunshine or in rain. And that *is* possible when both wish it, and work on it.
Cheers!
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 8:19:33 AM |
I have grown very weary of the whole journey, and am about to resign myself to the ranks of the Red Hat brigade.
Being the gentleman I am.... I'll hold the exit door open for you. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 8:46:42 AM | Thank you ((())))hugs...to those who understood my sensitive, romantic soul and heart.
Romance isn't some abstract, centuries ago idea.
It is love, anticipation, respect, excitement, and 100's of other things; whatever 2 people in love...make it.
As I stated before, I will wait for the man who "gets me."
As an aside, I love myself, know myself as much as one can, am a stone "people" person and enjoy life (just 1 thing missing), but I won't give up; it isn't in my ROMANTIC, LOL....character.
Rossal | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 9:12:43 AM | I can ask...whatever happened to the years behind us...when we had time for real romance/courtship?
People did not change...a lot of them don't know what romance means. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 9:18:17 AM | well ms flower, i have to agree with you but just because the culture does something does not mean you have to. i am about to finish an interesting book about the long term resistence to hitler among german military and civilian leaders. the thing that interests me the most is how much hand wringing these guys did compared to actions taken. but at least they tried and even in the midst of evil they strove to do the right thing with all they had in them. culture pressure is the same excuse some folks give their kids, peer pressure. it does not have to be like that. and i for one am not goning to be like that.  | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 9:18:56 AM | If you want romance.......then make it. If you want courtship......then really court somebody.
Be what you want in others & you will attract the same.
If you want somebody w/ the heart of a poet...write some poems & go to a reading.
If you want somebody w/ the heart of an adventurer, then make your self an
adventure.
If you want somebody w/ the heart of a cowboy, go ride the range on a fine bay mare.
We've got one life to make into a wild, romantic, storybook carnival ride.....that's VERY hard to do by sitting in front of a computer.
Here's to poetry, adventure & wide open places!  | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 10:27:40 AM |
Men used to be respected for being gentlemen, being the heads of a home, treating his lady specially. Well, now we are all "equal" and they aren`t obliged to do it any more. They can just screw around and dog around and no one would think any less of them.
I am afraid I have to disagree with the above statement, because quite simply, I hold them accountable. I treat people with repect, courtesy, consideration, and caring - I expect to be treated in the same manner. As a previous poster said "You get what you give".
I believe romance is alive and well in all of us, except perhaps those who have let life jade them beyond hope. The old saying of " you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you meet the handsome prince/princess" is very true, and you can let the frogs dictate how you live your life, or you can rise above them and their standards.
I am willing to risk jumping over the frogs to get to my prince, and he doesn't have to be a prince to anyone else, just me. I was also raised that anything truly worth having is worth working and waiting for, so I will just continue to take a chance.
The last chance I took, introduced me to a super nice fishie that I want to get to know better, and with any luck at all, he'll feel the same way. Keep the faith - love and romance are always possible if you keep your heart and mind open to the possibilities. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 11:16:04 AM | | I met a woman WHO I romanced . what killed it was these words " I met someone else . we were just freinds " I THAUGHT she was thee one . That hurt . and a woman who wanted to start out as friends said this . I totally lost it . It brought back those words . WE ARE JUST FREINDS . I like the romance . showing her how much she means . IF , a woman was to ramnce me . I can tell her that it would change my thinking . | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 11:26:08 AM | While we're on the subject-
Whatever happened to great space battles? You know, with the disruptors, particle beam weapons, photon torpedos, explosions you could hear, etc?
My point being of course, that they are as fantastic as the courtship you're lamenting.
Real courtship meant being firmly ensconced in the bosom of your family. That the men permitted to meet you were from the same parish or social circle.That everything worth knowing about the other person was avilable by a few discreet quetions among mutual acquaintances. That alone time was a few stolen minutes while granny or your maiden aunt used the restroom. That the man was perfectly OK with these arrangements since the women of his family were treated the same way. That a permanent match would likely be concluded or excluded within a couple of months of the initial introduction.
A man wouldn't dream of impropriety with a woman under these circumstances. The common knowledge of it would ruin his standing within the community and injure his family's. The same for the women.
I wonder how much of the radical shift in "courting" behaviors in the last hundred years could be attributed to the sub- and super-liminal influence of filmed fiction? Probably not as much as the easy mobility of the auto. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 11:35:09 AM |
If you want romance.......then make it. If you want courtship......then really court somebody
I respectfully disagree. I don't think we should have to do the work to get the result we're looking for from another. FROM ANOTHER. I have no problem "doing the work", but when I'm wanting something and have to constantly do all the work alone to get the desired result, it loses something.
If you want somebody w/ the heart of a poet...write some poems & go to a reading.
I don't write poetry. If that's something I want from someone else, I want THEM to do it!!
If you want somebody w/ the heart of a cowboy, go ride the range on a fine bay mare.
No! Let him ride up to ME on his trusted steed!!!
See, it's not about becoming what we want from another.... but it might be about letting go of
expectations that might seem unreasonable....
And I'm also gonna believe that you CAN get what you want... but it's gonna be in Universe time, not yours.... so hold tight, have some fun and don't stop dreaming. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 11:41:01 AM |
If you want romance.......then make it. If you want courtship......then really court somebody. Be what you want in others & you will attract the same. If you want somebody w/ the heart of a poet...write some poems & go to a reading. If you want somebody w/ the heart of an adventurer, then make your self an adventure. If you want somebody w/ the heart of a cowboy, go ride the range on a fine bay mare. We've got one life to make into a wild, romantic, storybook carnival ride.....that's VERY hard to do by sitting in front of a computer. Here's to poetry, adventure & wide open places!
Most excellent point of view. Kudos to you. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 12:16:27 PM | Again, my point was missed. I AM a poet (website with over 14,400 hits), writer, dancer, singer and advocate/counselor in an abused survivor's group.
I am who I want to be, I simply want and need to find someone (as I said before) "gets me."
I am an adventurer also......I went to Hawaii alone to a convention where I knew no one. I may be presenting at next year's convention.....no degree, but experience and research has made me an "expert" in abuse.
Sheesh, I hope I don't have to keep responding and explaining myself anymore.......but I am sure I will, LOL, LOL!!
I cannot "make" romance without another person! | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 12:19:14 PM | I will happily disagree in a respectful fashion, BL!
And I'm also gonna believe that you CAN get what you want... but it's gonna be in Universe time, not yours
& there's the rub. A passive approach requires more time, something humans have in a finite amount.
Merely waiting for somebody like that, to whom YOU are also the perfect match seems to be approaching lottery-winning odds........Personally, I'd not leave my financial happiness up to that game plan, & I'm loathe to do the same w/ my romantic happiness.
Basically, you are advocating having something special & rare brought to your feet without actively doing anything to smooth that approach. Kind of like expecting to go somewhere fabulous because you've got a great boat...but neglecting to raise the sail.
I cannot "make" romance without another person!
Ahhh...& you have missed mine. You do not make romance alone, you make your actions Romantic. That will draw other romantic souls.
Wishing that life was more like the old movies........well, that would be nice. I hope it finds you. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 12:58:42 PM |
A passive approach requires more time, something humans have in a finite amount.
Merely waiting for somebody like that, to whom YOU are also the perfect match seems to be approaching lottery-winning odds........Personally, I'd not leave my financial happiness up to that game plan, & I'm loathe to do the same w/ my romantic happiness.
Basically, you are advocating having something special & rare brought to your feet without actively doing anything to smooth that approach. Kind of like expecting to go somewhere fabulous because you've got a great boat...but neglecting to raise the sail.
eek.... I think I may have fallen off my square.... I'm not expressing my thoughts well today.... Please forgive.
I do believe that we have to be pro-active in our approach, but I don't subscribe to the thought that we have to become that which we want. Therefore, I don't expect anything to fall at my feet, nor the perfect mate to come searching me out without so much as a spec of activity on my part....
I'm not advocating being a love sloth... lol.... but I don't wanna have to become what I'm not just because I want something I'm not. Hah! OK, now I'm confused.
I really need to get on with my weekend here..............................  | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 1:24:52 PM | The LAST thing I am....is "passive!"
Have you looked at my profile; do I LOOK or sound/seem passive!
Why do you think I am on poh?
I go out, meet, date, talk, etc..the point is......I haven't met the man I need. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 2:30:47 PM | Rossal, I understand where you are coming from, but in real life, is it just a fairy tale?
I don't believe courtship/romance is dead, but I do believe it has taken on a different role.
The only other thing that may be hindering you finding courtship/romance is the fact that you don't have your true age on your profile. I know if I met a man and he cut 10+ years off his profile age, that would be a turn-off to me. Honesty is one of those things that is important. The truth will set you free!
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 4:22:04 PM | Hi rossal,
Your post was very thought provoking and made me consider several things that seem related to the issue of romance today.
I believe that patterns of life in our modern urban society tend to push us to become more time stressed and impatient in almost all activities like driving, shopping, meal preparation, entertainment etc., not just in dating. We don't like to wait in line, wait in traffic, in fact we don't like to wait for anything. It takes real effort to "take time to smell the roses", but when we do.....incredible rewards!
It's also true that mass media provide us with many stories and scenarios about dating and romance, but they usually focus on the attractive younger generation of each era rather than on those "over 45". Today's current stories and dramas are the reference points for those who are younger today, and the older stories remind us of what we saw when we were younger and beginning to date. What's considered "romantic" is different among the different generations.
Each generation has it's own patterns of dating. In the past there were "box socials", often organized by a church, where each young woman would prepare a picnic lunch box for two, and a young man would draw the name of one young woman, or bid on the picnic lunch she had made for a charity cause, and then share that lunch with her at a chaperoned group picnic where all the other couples also had their picnic lunches. Today we have events like speed dating with 3-8 minutes to talk with someone before having to talk with someone else.
As we get older, and perhaps after several relationships and marriages, some of the things we did when we were younger and dating may no longer seem romantic. They feel less relevant or just plain awkward. I wouldn't want to go to a drive-in movie on a date (could I even find one today?) and I wouldn't care for a burger, shared fries and chocolate shake with two straws as a dinner date (unless it was a "50s nostalga" evening with someone who had already agreed it would be fun).
So...us "over 45s" need to invent our own patterns for romance. But they'll need to be more individual, relating to the unique interests that we've each established over time and include sharing the things we've each discovered, have taken time to develop, and we now truly enjoy based on our total life experiences. Two great cooks might find that preparing a meal together with two of their favorite recipes is very romantic. Two photographers might find that sharing their pictures and discussing their photography techniques is wonderful. Two hikers may find that planning and walking their most favorite trails is totally exciting. The interests don't need to be identical, just mutual.
I belive that the difference in romance for those of us "over 45" is that we're all more complex, more interesting, and more developed as individuals than we were when we were younger. This means there are now many more different patterns of romance open to us. The challenge is to find someone who's willing to share with us what we've now both become. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/18/2008 5:48:56 PM |
Can't I still have romance and courting even while I believe and live my life as if I am equal?
Real romance should come as an outgrowth of cherishing one's partner. On the other hand, the old paradigm of "courtship" was based on a societal understanding that men had to "woo" a woman to "get sex", often with a promise to marry. That societal norm is dead and gone, because most adult women accept sexuality as a normal part of dating for adults.
Long married men should still engage in romantic gestures towards their wives, and the more a man cherishes the woman in his life, the more likely to be romantic.
The OP, though, bemoaned the "old" courtship rituals, where a woman was pusued based on a fundamental inequality in the larger world, so women had to "choose a husband wisely" as what would determine her lifestyle. That no longer applies in a society that is based on professional equality. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/19/2008 1:15:56 AM | I am a true gentleman because I want and expect that special someone to be the same with me and treat me the same respectful way.
I have found with my experiences of the net dating, and the off-line dating as well that very little effort is to be expected from the female TO the male. Case in point, I have sent numerous emails and IM's to numerous females with whom I felt were "decent" BASED on what they said in their profile and their pics as well. Very little response was returned, whether interested or not. Most all were not. Most of the time I have been on here I had a different worded profile; like everyone else's I simply told of likes/dislikes, wants/needs. When I did receive a response ( which was rare ), it was filled with negativity. I didn't send out that to expect and receive that back. I received it because the sender cared nothing about returning mutual respect and friendliness OF WHICH I sent to them. I tried the "old-fashioned" way of the dating/romance/ courtship idea here with the modern venue of the internet and found..........the dating ideas and principles of yesteryear doesn't exist!
People have decided that those ways of being up-front, brutally honest, and ALWAYS truthful are not for them! How can a male be expected to "wine, dine and romance" a female if he is not reciprocated to and treated with the same fellow human mutual respect that he is sending out?
"Whatever happened to romance/courtship"? It died many years ago. There are TWO people involved in that as such ( the last time I checked ) but how can it be carried out, or even instituted, if only ONE is putting forth all the effort to search and find each other? One poster stated comments as such that basically she was waiting until the male came to her; fell at her feet. That IS the impression that was given, at least at first. She then in an additional post clarified that that's not the way she meant it to be taken. Thank you. But the fact remains that, at least from my real life experiences, that females ( most but not all ) require that the male do all the "work" as it were, initial contact, showing interest, pursueing, while they "sit and wait" for the guys to "find" them.
The negative response or mostly none at all that I received was not due to the pre-existing profile I had; it was not due to being butt-ugly, as have a look at my pics; not due to not putting forth MUCH time, thought, effort, energy, initiation, because I certainly have invested much of each of those things into this modern dating world; not due to not "branching out" to look further away from my locale for larger scope of an interest area, because I have done that too; not due to trying only on-line because I have tried many avenues out in public and in person face-to-face with females, but with the same uncareing results; not due to being too short as in that most women want and seek a tall male, as I am 6' 4" tall.
No, it isn't due to any of those things, nor a host of other innocent, positive things. It is due strictly to people and the way they WANT it to be. They are the reason that Romance/Courtship and all that goes with it does not exist anymore.
They have simply let it die.............and die out; in exchange for something callous, cold, cruel, un-human, and un-real.    | |
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