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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 7:54:29 AM |
If you want romance.......then make it. If you want courtship......then really court somebody. Be what you want in others & you will attract the same. If you want somebody w/ the heart of a poet...write some poems & go to a reading. If you want somebody w/ the heart of an adventurer, then make your self an adventure. If you want somebody w/ the heart of a cowboy, go ride the range on a fine bay mare. We've got one life to make into a wild, romantic, storybook carnival ride.....that's VERY hard to do by sitting in front of a computer. Here's to poetry, adventure & wide open places!
This was well said!! Thanks for that share!
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 8:56:02 AM | I haven't experienced much in the way of romance/courtship....it's more like a business deal. They'll spring for the coffee at Timmie's but while you're trying to find out about their personality, likes and dislikes, they're grilling you about your retirement funds and current income to ensure that you have the ability to help them to achieve their dreams for retirement. Once they're convinced you won't be a financial burden to them, they immediately swing their questionings to sexual compatibility. Please, men, do NOT tell a woman that it's wasting your time and money to date her if she doesn't promise you over that first coffee that she finds you attractive enough to have sex with.
Whatever happened to meeting someone, getting to know them, meeting their friends and family, seeing how well you both fit into each others lives and doing this over the course of several months. I won't have sex with just anybody, and until I get to know you, you ARE just ANYBODY.
I may find you physically attractive but find over the course of several dates that you're not someone that I could have a long-term relationship with. Perhaps you'd be a good friend, but the compatability just isn't there for long-term.
Or, I may not find you all that physically attractive, but after talking with you and sharing time with you, I discover what a wonderful connection we have and you have now become extremely attractive to me....someone who'd I'd like to be in a relationship with for the long haul. And this would not have been discovered while sipping a coffee. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 9:09:15 AM | Country Man, it is unfortunate that you've had negative experiences on here, but one thing I tell myself on the rare occasion I have the same thing happen, is that I'm better off knowing up front that the guy is a jerk, or whatever epithet he brings to mind. You say you've changed your profile. The one you have now is so negative, I know I wouldn't want to chat with you because of it.
There are so many nice men on this site who do inspire us ladies to talk to them, and I know some are capable of the romance and courting behavior some women enjoy, just as there are women who respond to genuine attempts and reciprocate those feelings. I'm not jaded and refuse to tar everyone with the same brush. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 9:23:56 AM |
I have been watching Turner Classical Movie channel and the first thing that struck me was how proper the ladies are. Next, actors like Cary Grant, Spencer Tracy, Humphrey Bogart - they were sooooooo respectful to women, no ill words, and Bogart calls his ladies sweetheart, honey, just kind terms of endearment.
And therein lies the problem. Do you know how many women get offended if you call them sweetheart, honey, or anything else?
Do you know there's women that get offended if you open the door for them? I've been yelled at by random women just for opening a door without saying a word. They get offended if you insist on paying, they get offended if you want to take any sort-of male lead at all, they get offended at things that I have no idea why they're offensive! What used to be very easy (I pay, I drive, I open the doors, etc etc) has become a mindgame aimed at us by certain females with every little action we do being scrutinized. We can only hope that we don't get yelled at and instead, do the right thing. Because anymore, a fella never knows. A guy will only get yelled at so many times, before he stops doin what causes the yellin. Even if his intentions in doin it are good.
This is why a long time ago, I gave up on trying to be politically correct on a date and not offend anyone. I'm me and the woman can fit into my world or not. The dogs and I are very happy without the drama. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 9:43:55 AM | Well when I was a young lad, I courted a few ladies that I had known since the first grade, and soon realized that our great-grandparents lived two miles from each other and were quite friendly. I knew them well and knew exactly what was expected. All of those first meeting questions had been answered so my only agenda was to show my interest and see if it was returned. It was a dance of small gestures that took place within a larger context of shared expectations. As the gentleman involved, I took the lead. Personal safety was not an issue.
Now I have had enough e-mail, telephone, and face-to-face meetings with enough ladies to know that the only thing I can expect is the unexpected. I have asked for a picture and gotten back bare breasts; they were something to be proud of, but I just wanted to recognize the lady when I walked into Starbucks. I have shown up with a rose in hand and been grilled about what I expected in return. I have engaged in protracted negotiations over who is paying for what after offering to pick up the tab. I have heard that a second meeting is not a "date" and a bit of discussion revealed that we would not be "dating" unless we were also having sex.
After a good bit of initial discomfort and confusion, I decided it is really quite simple. Leave all my expectations in the sock drawer at home, show up on time, turn off the cell phone and pay attention to the lady. Always offer to pick up the tab but never decline her offer to split it. Never have another commitment later in the day, and spend all the time with the lady she is willing to spend. Answer any question she chooses to ask, and ask her questions similar to the ones she has asked me. In other words, follow wherever the lady leads unless it violates my boundaries of what is acceptable and I have very few of those. After several face-to-face meetings like this I might have some foggy idea what this lady is about, what she wants from me, what she offers in return. If I choose to continue, I should know by now what she expects in the way of romance and courtship, among other things.
So back to the original question, romance and courtship can only occur within some context of mutual understanding and that takes a while to establish with a complete stranger. If a lad hangs back a bit, maybe he respects you enough to wait for you to point him in the direction you want him to go. If your signals are subtle, don't be surprised if he misses or misunderstands a few at the beginning. Unless you want to be disappointed, don't take anything for granted or test his mind-reading skills. Back then it was reasonable to want a feller that took the same things for granted that you did and took the lead most of the time. Nowadays it is more reasonable to want a feller that can also pay attention and get in step with where you want to go, when you want to take the lead. If you like romantic gestures and courtship, point your feller in that direction. If he isn't paying attention, kick him to the curb and find another one that will. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 9:44:51 AM | I hear ya Mr Happy Pants. I cannot understand why some women get their knickers in a knot. It has spoiled things for the rest of us who appreciate those thoughtful actions. Although, I believe that some of those knots have loosened a bit and those women are coming to the realization that even though they are quite capable of doing it themselves, it's nice to have someone be thoughtful enough to offer to do it for us.
BTW....women should do the same for men too...it's just as thoughtful. Some men consider it an afront to their manhood....really, it's probably not a power trip....but just someone doing a thoughtful action. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 9:56:26 AM | Re post 74:
"OMG!! I swear you read my mind. I have been watching Turner Classical Movie channel and the first thing that struck me was how proper the ladies are. Next, actors like Cary Grant, Spencer Tracy, Humphrey Bogart - they were sooooooo respectful to women, no ill words, and Bogart calls his ladies sweetheart, honey, just kind terms of endearment."
That was "Hollywood" and Hollywood was never about real life, especially in those "big studio". Most of the actors did not act like that in their real lives!
"Then I get online or I see people in general - Young girls with "tramp stamps", ill mouths and pants where you can almost see the surprise since the top of their pants stop at the hairline...and we cannot forget the string thong underwear hanging out the top of the pants either. With men I am convinced that gentlemen are nothing but a rarity, a dying breed, an endangered species. So many use profanity to speak in everyday conversation."
In essence, life today is more real. Less pretence, even at the expense of matters and etiquette! Fewer "sceletons" in "closets". | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 10:09:34 AM | | Yes Wayward Seeker....it's a whole new set of rules from when we first started dating as teenagers. It's quite the learning experience and we have to go into each new dating experience ready to play it by ear. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 11:19:38 AM | | Wayward, if only more did it your way. You have hit on the solution to a lot of these problems. You take your time, listen, offer to be gracious and are equally so when the woman is the same. I have always believed if you treat someone the way you want to be treated, you are halfway there. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 11:25:30 AM | Read Happy Pants' profile, it is hilarious and relavent to the thread (sort of). It will certainly make you laugh.
Romance may still be alive and well in some circles, not sure those circles are to be found on an online dating site though. Last time I was romanced it was a by a neighbour I got to know through friends in the community. We would see each other at different functions, steal glances, chat with one another, we became friendly, blah, blah, blah... Like one poster said, if you want to find somethign go out and be what you seek (or something to that effect). Happy  | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 11:25:44 AM | Do you know there's women that get offended if you open the door for them? I've been yelled at by random women just for opening a door without saying a word.
...I don't
They get offended if you insist on paying, they get offended if you want to take any sort-of male lead at all,
...I don't, it happens so seldom in my world, I'll gladly let him take the lead for a change...and as for paying...if you insist, okay, if not.....lets flip a coin.
they get offended at things that I have no idea why they're offensive!
...Believe me, you'll know if I'm offended haha
What used to be very easy (I pay, I drive, I open the doors, etc etc) has become a mindgame aimed at us by certain females with every little action we do being scrutinized.
...By the sounds of it you've been meeting the wrong females.... I love it when they behave in a cavaliar manner, it makes me feel special.
...maeflowers | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 12:09:37 PM | | I can only PRAY (with an A!) that all of the guys who hold on to that "Wham, Bam, Thank you Ma'am" mentality hit on every beautiful woman that I find interesting at least twice a day, every day for about two months before that lady happens along to my profile! There ARE still BOTH men and women of ALL ages who feel that getting to know one another first is important, and if the chemistry is there, want the "Wine and Flowers" of what some might call the "Old Days" to to do that. I have been guilty too of a relationship based initially on sex where they just threw raw meat under the door for a few days! But ya gotta get out of bed some time! There's nothing wrong with dating, it gives each part of the equation a chance to evaluate the other as a potential mate whether marriage is involved or not. Do men want sex? OF COURSE! PRIMAL INSTINCT, STUPID QUESTION! And Women do too!! But a relationship based purely on sex is usually pretty fleeting...and usually pretty monosyllabic(OHHHH YEESSSSSS, TTHHHAAATTTTS IIITTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!)too!!LOL | |
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etj
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Joined: 7/11/2008
Msg: 89 | |
| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 1:38:01 PM | Such a wonderful topic to discuss and it seems that everyone is mostly on the same page. This old lady has laid two husbands in the ground along with several past men from serious and not so serious love affairs (Disclaimer=I did not do anything to speed their departure from the land of the living. It just appears that men are like Bic lighters-they burn bright and don't last too long) .
I find there are several factors that can contribute to this sad state of affairs:
Communication=people today don't communicate with each other. They are not willing to take the time out to voice what they are all about, their interests, likes, or desires. They assume that others should know what it is that they want and then they are disappointed when they don't get it.
Listening=people today may hear what someone is saying but they are not listening. Before the words have even begun to come out of another person's mouth, people start forming their own judgments and values about what someone else is saying. Combine that with assumptions and perceptions and you have created the most understood pie in valley.
Wanting it now syndrome=What is the difference between instant coffee, tea, food or relationships vs the old fashion way to getting it ? It is the time it takes to make it. I prefer brewed tea and coffee, meals made from scratch and relationships where it took time to grow to be what it is be. In order for someone to be in a great relationship they have to know the dislikes and likes of their partner. Usually that means that first a friendship needs to be bonded so that both parties are willing to open up to the other person. You cannot build that friendship in one hook-up date or just getting together for sex alone. Don't get me wrong sex for sex sake is not a bad thing if that is what both people want but usually it doesn't involve the level of intensity that courtship or romance usually leads to. I love a good quick and fast burger joint every now and then but it is nothing compared to when I get in the kitchen and create something wonderful myself. It takes time but worth the effort.
Knowing what it is you really want=men and women today have issues with knowing themselves. They will say one thing but mean another. Their profile might say " I would love to meet someone for chatting and dating" when it should say "I want to get together for casual sex-only." I they might forget to state that they are very passionate but forget to say that they only use their passion for a prelude to an intimate encounter. If people actually knew what it is that they want and stated it clearly, and accepted nothing less-they may not get a lot of responses but they would have a greater chance of getting exactly what they want.
Well gotta go. It is hot outside and I wanted some ice tea. I have to take it off the stove where it has been brewing for a while and put it in the fridge to cool so I can enjoy it. I could have reached for the instant quick kind but I wanted something with a little more substance..fancy that!
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 7:00:03 PM |
By the sounds of it you've been meeting the wrong females.... I love it when they behave in a cavaliar manner, it makes me feel special.
And you're in Canada so a lot of good that does! | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 7:41:15 PM | First Mr Happy Pants, a few females insecure in their role as a woman does not spoil the whole bunch...I have seen the type of behavior you speak of demonstrated (but not by any female with which I have a close relationship...)I also think that much of this is concetrated closer to our metropolitan areas where Mama and Daddy (if he's been involved at all) have taken and accepted non traditional roles. People have done a terrible job at wading through these muddy waters and though I know I will catch alot of flack for this politically incorrect statement, the women's movement has done damage beyond our wildest imaginations. Yes, if you do the same job you should get the same pay but shouldn't it have ended there. We are different creatures...there are greater differences between men and women than plumbing and thank God for it...We were created not to compete with, but to compliment each other. I have usually worked in non traditional roles for a female, I think one of the nicer compliments I received was from a NY Union carpenter who told me that he and they guys really admired me that I knew my stuff and lead as well as any man they had worked for but did so without compromising my femeninety. I raised my daughter to watch for gentleman qualities in choosing a man and raised my son to treat women respectfully and display his best behavior and manners in dealing with women regardless of their age or station. Assured him that it could only serve him well. So far I have not been proven wrong. Perhaps you've been looking for love in all the wrong places...I know I have never met a Texan that didn't address me as Miss Frankie and treat me like a lady and I appreciated such and deserved it. Incidentally, I never met a Texan that I don't have also have wonderful cherished friendships with...perhaps you need to move to eastern Kentucky where the fact that your Mama and Daddy raised you right won't be held against you rather than let the ills of a few mislead females change who you are at your core...  | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 8:35:57 PM | | Chivalrous men are indeed a dying breed. There are a few of them left in the baby boomer generation, but they're few and far between. I've also seen it in younger males - I've been addressed as "ma'am" and they've displayed courtesy to me. But then again, I don't treat young people with disrespect. Crudeness and rudeness is NEVER attractive behaviour for anyone, whether male or female. I'm proud to say that I brought up my children to be polite and mannerly and they, in turn, are bringing up their children the same way. Any person who values himself/herself will not be attracted to people who have no respect for themselves or others. If a date treats me with disrespect, he will never see my face again. I just won't stand for it. It costs nothing to be polite and respectful to your date or your partner. Romance, courtship and the feeling of being cherished are never bad things. They can only enhance your life, whereas the alternative can destroy any chance you may have to find a decent person. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 8:50:38 PM | | For myself? I love it when a man holds the door for me to get in his car. I in turn, open his door. I think it is totally romatic should a man do things like that. I don't expect it but am totally surprised when it is done for me. Never in a million years would I ever, ever yell or pass comment on a man who treated me that way. And I simply can't understand ladies that get their knickers in a twist. Gotta wonder wth??? | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 9:30:12 PM | is it possible to curse every now and then and still have romance? because i'm from brooklyn and i'm also a romantic. if the answer is no, then i am truly doomed. but i am also stubborn. i want romance, intellectual and emotional and spiritual connection, and i want passion and love. i guess i'm either greedy or a "hopeless romantic" or maybe just getting stupider with old age. but i am not giving up.  | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 10:35:24 PM |
And you're in Canada so a lot of good that does
... Sorry bout that.
i want romance, intellectual and emotional and spiritual connection, and i want passion and love. i guess i'm either greedy or a "hopeless romantic" or maybe just getting stupider with old age. but i am not giving up
..Your not alone, I'm a hopeless romantic too, I want it all ....or is this what fairytales are made of?
...maeflowers | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/20/2008 11:05:18 PM | People "date" for different reasons. The most common is to find "romantic love", which, really, is all about sexual attraction. Back in the old days, there was a different paradigm, where women "held out" for marriage, being more or less "powerless" in the market place.
With the advent of the pill, and equality of the sexes in the work place, that paradigm began to change. The "old paradigm" could only be "enforced" because most "decent" women wouldn't easily engage in sex.
In our present day and age, divorce is the norm, as is material independence. Most women are in touch with their sexuality, and with the prevalence of birth control, there's no need to be abstinent for practical reasons. As a result, sexuality is an expectation for both men and women as a normal part of dating.
The "romantic courtship" that you miss, where sexuality is withheld until it's "earned" is something that was based on an old paradigm that no longer exists. Romance now, for many people, is a celebration of cherishing one's lover, rather than trying to "earn" one's way into her pants. I think romance in the current era is more sincere, more real, and less manipulative.
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Where on Earth did you come up with all that? Ok, for you maybe. But please only speak for your own personal fetish or unusual relationshps. Is there some reason a woman can't be in touch with her sexuality and meet a cool dude who knows how to start a relationship? Not some oddball who's main goal is sex sex sex? But maybe a guy who really wants a RELATIONSHIP, no I don't mean "a friend". Or maybe plan B is the ladies meet a real swinging bachelor, with private plane, house on the beach, season tickets, Cologne 10#, and an anti-spy car he races with James Bond! If settling down isn't her immediate goal, since she probably has kids at our age. But wouldn't it be cool if your mom was dating James Bond or SpiderMan?
I think the OP merely wants to know why today can't a guy flirt a little, introduce himself properly, ask her to dance or meet for lunch, get her phone number, arrange to meet on Friday nite at 6:30, go to dinner, get really drunk, and then screw her when she's passed out like we used to do. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/21/2008 3:38:15 AM | Thank you so much, Olyman38!!!^^^^^^ I was reading the above BS that you quoted and thought I would puke. Big words, fancy theories - still BS. Glad you pointed that out.
Sherry | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/21/2008 1:18:24 PM | Hey etj!! What a well thought out, worded, and so well put comment!!! You are such a sweetie! Here is a hug for you!
I am at times still mystified if that is the proper term to use in refering what it is or is "supposed" to be when reading, writing, and following the etiquette rules for this modern day dating dilema!
From my personal experiences and from discussions with friends and former co-workers (both male AND female) it would seem a male cannot keep from falling through the proverbial potholes of trying to be, do, and accomplish all that he feels is expected of him and from him when on a date with a prospective female.
I agree totally with Wayward: If a man meets and greets her with a nice smile and a simple handshake he is being way too forward and might be considered a little "quick to the punch". He meets a different female and decides to just smile without the handshake, he can be accused of being too unfriendly and aloof.
If he opens the car door/restaurant door for her he can be misread as " I don't need a male to do that for me, I can do it for myself". If he does not open the door for another he can be construed as being ungentlemanly or disrespectful.
In the conversation at the table, if he is very honest and open and answers all of her questions freely he can be ascertained as relating too much information too soon and this is a big turn off for her. On the other hand, if he holds back somewhat, trying to ascertain and judge what he thinks IS "too much info. for her too soon", that she might reject him for it, he gets rejected anyway because she labels him as being too uptight and not letting the conversation flow freely. He is labeled as "unfriendly and cool".
If when the server brings the check he casually says " how 'bout it being on me" as a gentlemanly gesture, he is thought of as "I wonder what he is after and what he thinks he expects of me or what I should "do" for him for paying for my share"? The other side of the coin, with someone else, if he doesn't offer to cover it all or at least pay for his share, he is thought of as a cheapskate, a moocher, and a user!
Why can't ALL, MALES AND FEMALES alike just live and let live like the dating scene used to be for a hundred years, where each person was just simply brutally honest and open with each other in all regards and aspects of the dating realm?
If he wants to be a gentleman and open the door, let him! And think nothing of it other than that he is trying to be nice and a gentleman!
If one or the other person asks a question let them answer it, giving them all the time they need to gather their thoughts for an honest and effective answer! You asked the dang question hopefully because you have qualities of honesty and sincereity and truthfully you wanted to really know the answer to learn about them.
Let him or her do that and don't jump the gun, blame, offend, or abruptly get up and walk out leaving them sitting there like a fool!! Just take it for what it is: a little piece of someone's life history that YOU NEED TO KNOW whether it is good or bad.
You are there to LEARN about each other to see and ascertain if either one of you is interested in taking it further for a date the next time IF you two should decide to meet again. Period. How can you clearly and honestly make that judgement if you don't exercise a little patience to hear them out???
If ALL would apply these very few, very simple dating etiquette "rules" if you will,
the dating scene would be much, much more of a dating and courtship concept or idea and would be far, far less complicated!    | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/21/2008 8:10:45 PM | This might be off topic, but in reading this thread (and others), it seems to me that the online dating experience has been demoralizing for many. I am so sorry so many people have been through that experience. Makes me regret not pursuing a certain business idea I had 10+ years ago, it sure seems folks need an alternative, along with some refresher training on how to respect one another in the dating process. Maybe in my retirement years I'll revisit that idea should there still be so many wounded wings needing mending. But, for now I have a dream job and am quite content.  | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/21/2008 8:11:15 PM |
The "romantic courtship" that you miss, where sexuality is withheld until it's "earned" is something that was based on an old paradigm that no longer exists. Romance now, for many people, is a celebration of cherishing one's lover, rather than trying to "earn" one's way into her pants. I think romance in the current era is more sincere, more real, and less manipulative.
I disagree ....... Sexuality isn't withheld until it's "earned" It's withheld until there is true love and intimacy there and that doesn' t happen by the third date........
If romance in the current era is more sincere, more real and less manipulative then how come the generations before the baby boomers could make marriages last and our generation can't? Our generation needs to learn a lesson or two from those 70 year old couples out there who are still married, still in love and still going out dancing at the senior center, holding hands and enjoying travel and vacations together.......and there are lots of them out there. JMO | |
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