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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/21/2008 8:21:53 PM |
Sexuality isn't withheld until it's "earned" It's withheld until there is true love and intimacy there and that doesn' t happen by the third date........
And for me, it never gets to the third date, if we aren't so "into" each other right away, that it's a fulfillment of both our needs from the start. It's not that I "demand" sex. I never have. It wouldn't be worth having, if I had to. For me, it's there, in response to chemistry, or it's not.
The old paradigm compared to "now" is illustrated by the following.
If romance in the current era is more sincere, more real and less manipulative then how come the generations before the baby boomers could make marriages last and our generation can't?
It's simple. The "social contract" required that marriages stay together, as part of the structure of society. Things were based on a working husband and stay at home wife. Women who had to work had far fewer opportunities, and the notion of "equality in the workplace" wasn't even heard of until the 60s.
Preganancy was a real risk, and it was through marriage that most women determined their futures. Love and eros were secondary to finding a "good provider", and women had to be very sure of their choices, because it was a lifelong choice.
"Romance" in that structure was part of the old concept, appropriate to the old paradigm, that "men give love to get sex, and women give sex to get love".
Now, a man doesn't need to "woo" or be especially romantic, to find a sexual relationship. If he does love a woman, though, he will be romantic, because it brings joy to his lover. As I said, to me, it's more voluntary, rather than coerced, and therefore more meaningful and sincere.
For me, at least, I will do 1,000 little things to delight my lover, but until we are lovers, I'm not going to bring flowers, or send cards, or call "just because". It feels phony, manipulative, and creates emotional distance. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/21/2008 8:44:42 PM | | Countryman, if that truly has been your experience, no wonder you seem negative on your profile. I'm really sad to read all that. I don't go into any first meeting/date with any expectations, and unless the other person's behavior is truly horrible, I don't judge actions such as the door opening, getting the check, etc. I figure we're both nervous and fumbling and that's ok! I'm more concerned with behavioral patterns over several dates. I happen to like it when a man is courteous to me and my needs. I let him know I appreciate it too. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/21/2008 8:45:19 PM | Very possibly, this thread may have described very accurately what has happened to romance and courtship. When these things become a planned act, by the book – an outdated book, at that – as method for a reward, it becomes rather dumb, rather stupid and rather useless to even bother.
Fortunately there are some of us still out here who’ll freely pick a passing spring wildflower to give to a lady for no other reason than to see the smile on her face. Some of us still wish to ‘court’ our way into her heart, rather than to what’s in her pants. And romance and courtship are viewed as the way to the former, not the result of the latter.
My opinion, of course ...
cdn guy | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/21/2008 9:02:23 PM | One thing to add. I think romance/courtship is still out there, just not with this crowd. lol . My Mom has been keeping me informed on a blossoming romance between my uncle 76, a widower, and a widow (same age range). They are both from the same small village, and have been doing the courtship dance for over a year now. They have still not been intimate, but, he is going to her house nearly every night for supper, they are going out to functions together. He has told her he loves her. What they both enjoy is each others companionship. My uncle is not a complicated fellow, not wealthy or well educated, but he is smitten and charming with her. And she too is smitten. It is quite sweet.
My grandmother after my grandad died, met a man in the seniors apartment complex where they lived, she was 83 when she met him and they had a lovely love affair. She loved their drives together, their meals out, and in return he enjoyed the meals she prepared for him (similar scenario to above). They had a short but special love, they glowed when in each other company.
A good friend of mine (in her early 40s), met a guy when she was living in another country, they had only dated for 3 months b4 she returned to Canada, they maintained the long distance love affair for a year, she took a year off work and went to live with him, they are now engaged and will marry within weeks. He was a perfect gentlemen, courted her, dinners and nice wine, etc. Sure once they were a couple it was an equal set-up, and they both are successful professionals. So, long story short, romance/courtship is still alive and well so don't let all the nay-sayers and killjoys get ya' down.  | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/21/2008 9:06:43 PM |
I don't judge actions such as the door opening, getting the check, etc. I figure we're both nervous and fumbling and that's ok! I'm more concerned with behavioral patterns over several dates. I happen to like it when a man is courteous to me and my needs. I let him know I appreciate it too.
Curls, yours was just the most recent post about "chivalry", rather than romance. That's a different story.
Perhaps it's not logical, but I AM "old school", when it comes to things like holding doors, walking outside, on the curb, and picking up the check. I think a lot of men in their 50s or older were raised to be "gentlemen", which includes things like that.
The thread, though, was premised on the old notion of "wooing", appropriate to an era, when a woman's "power" came from her control over sex in a relationship. It's a very different thing. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/21/2008 9:14:36 PM | Perhaps it's not logical, but I AM "old school", when it comes to things like holding doors, walking outside, on the curb, and picking up the check. I think a lot of men in their 50s or older were raised to be "gentlemen", which includes things like that.
What a bunch of pandering. One does not have to be "old school" to open doors, walk outside, pick up a check.
You don't need to be over 50 to be a gentleman. Kowtowing to the constituency is disingenuous. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/22/2008 1:11:20 AM | Whenever a new connection is tied in the minds of both or one of the two persons involved with marriage, LTR potential, growing old together, making children, financial net worths, and in general "long term" and "stability" and "comformist", it is not Romantic.
The old concept of Romance was either a product of fairy tales and never existed in real life or a going through the motions "gimmick" that fitted with the "social contracts" of previous, conservative and pretentious, centuries.
Real romance is two people on a bed, naked, living on making love, talking and bread and olives. No knights in shiny armour, no opening of doors, no man pays for dinner or drinks, no LT planning, none of the calculative factors that many people use in "selection".
And passion, lot's of passion, for Life!
The rest is "canned" - "fabricated" romance, IMO. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/22/2008 5:51:49 AM | Re post 109:
"^^^^^^Somehow that sounds about as romantic as a one-night stand"
Now, now, that is not a very nice thing to say, is it?
Especially since I do not do one night stands, sorry (to ruin the convenient "theory"/stereotype in the above post).
lol
PS. "Real romance is two people on a bed, naked, living on making love, talking and bread and olives." What does that have to do (in terms of "cognitive associations" with an ONS?)
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/22/2008 6:26:13 AM | | Ren Man, you're right. I got caught up in a tangent, didn't I? Maybe it's because of my age, but I look at wooing, romanticism and courtship as a package of treating someone with respect, and that includes chivalry. I don't really put sex and control thereof in the romantic category. I know that women tend to dictate when sex is going to happen because of societal norms among other things. As a modern woman with no sexual hangups or "rules," I guess I'm saying I want the romance and courtship, but whether or not I have sex with someone isn't going to hinge on that. I may meet a terrific man who is all thumbs when it comes to romance. If he's decent and respectful and we fall for one another, then I'm happy. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/22/2008 6:54:29 AM | | I think niick and curls have just demonstrated the difference between the sexes as to what feels romantic to "them". For a woman, the little kindnesses shown,out of bed , that make her feel cared for and secure is what often fuels a woman to show what the man percieves as romance in the bedroom. It`s not so much a buying of sexual favors as is sometimes pointed out. It is more or less creating that little bubble of trust and security for the woman that is going to make her much more open to being an increibly uninhibited lover. Care and kindness go a long way. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/22/2008 8:20:28 AM | as usual the wildflower is on target. gotta say that romance is still out there. now there are a few billion of us on the planet and what each of us thinks is romantic is going to be different. i like some of the stuff that goes with traditional "fairey tale" romance. I do believe that marriage can be happily ever after. now does that mean that its all roses and sunshine every day. HELL NO. the best of relationships have downsides and weaknesses and problems. people die, jobs are lost, roofs leak kids move things happen. the romance part is caring for your partner till the end of your days and making the US more important than the ME in the relationship. A word on the chivalry as in opening doors. I got yelled at by one woman for holding the door for her and quit for a while. but the truth is i hold the door for women and men, old and yougn and everything in between. I also say good morning to both genders, i also will offer to help someone strugeling to carry a heavy package and all those other things that are seen by some as sexist. Sorry if your offended by my doing what i perceive as the right and kind thing to do but i am going to do it. if you dont want the kindness thats up to you and if you take it wrong (if you take offense) thats on you too.  | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/23/2008 11:20:25 AM |
according to viagara sales anyhow...its up 20 percent from last year
After viagra only up an additional 20 percent!!!
All those commercials must be completely misleading if you only get up 20 percent more often. If you can only get it up once a month, all that trouble and expense would deliver only another 2 days or excitement per YEAR!! Hardly worth event waling down to the pharmacy for that! | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/24/2008 3:48:38 AM | Who says life was based on the "little" woman staying at home while the father worked? Women have worked throughout the ages. Haven't you ever heard of even children being put out to work? Only those women of privileged families didn't have to go out and help pay for the families needs. Even farmers wives did her share of actual work outside the farmhouse. June Cleaver was a character on a tv show. Sheesh!
The difference I'm seeing.. and I believe friendlyldy sees is.. now.. nothing is sacred.. respected.. and most of all.. appreciated. Everybody is into this "sharing everything" prior to having any real knowledge of each other. Then.. when you do get a darn good glimpse at each others personality traits and habits.. it's.. ooooopsy.. and.. off to the next one. Jump in bed.. and start the same process alllllll over again.. and again.. and again. We stopped caring about ourselves in a respectful manner.. and sell ourselves like meat on the open market. But.. we aren't meat.. and some of us understand respect goes both ways.. to ourelves.. and to others.. and that some things should remain as the cherry on top. Sacred. Not the whole enchilada straight out of the gate. The way people appreciated one another once upon a time.. and the sharing of intimate moments. There's no appreciation any more.. no respect. Just wam-bam.. is ther even a thank you maam.. anymore? I wonder. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/24/2008 4:06:27 AM | Re post 113
I do not recall being appointed spokesman for my gender or being tested and found "representative sample" of all males in the US (I am not in the US) or the western world. On the contrary, IMO my views are atypical of most of my fellow males. On top of that, I spoke of two people naked in bed, not just sex! Thus the constrasting of my POV with that of a female fellow poster is flawed.
Plus I do not think that modern women need protectors or bodyguards or "big brothers" "outside the bedroom". They are capable of handling everything on their own, if anything, more capable than the average man who has learned to depend on a woman for his feeding, laundry, housework, etc etc. As per life in general, one does not need an SO to get some help, friends and family are there for that, if needed (see "with a little help from my friends" - friends not FwBs).
Plus:
I agree with the female fellow poster's point (Post 112) about focusing romance on each other and not on rituals or gimmicks. But once Eros/Cupid is no longer, there is noo rel anymore, IMO. Only "household partners". And IMO no gimmicks or even human to human "pure love" can replace the expired Eros bond.
As per women working throughout the ages (post 117), well children did and wives of farmers did, but other women, no matter what the income level, not, except in a family biz (eg store or pub) type of biz. They mainly did the "home ec" job, 100%, as far as I have read. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/24/2008 4:09:34 AM |
Then.. when you do get a darn good glimpse at each others personality traits and habits.. it's.. ooooopsy.. and.. off to the next one.
That would be an illogical and contradictory statement. If two people took the time to understand each others personality they would not be "off to the next one".
We stopped caring about ourselves in a respectful manner.. and sell ourselves like meat on the open market. But.. we aren't meat.. and some of us understand respect goes both ways.. to ourelves.. and to others..
You don't speak for all people. I happen to think there are many people who are respectful. Hang around pawn shops, pool halls and cheap bars, yeah, you will get disrespected over time. And over time baseline thinking will generalize to all people which is a delusion.
Opening doors, helping the elderly with packages, assisting blind people is done everyday. It is called common courtesy, proper decorum. It is not a relationship issue per se. Some women, some men in relationships open their own doors, pay their own portion of meals and prefer it that way.
And disagreement over issues is not being disrespectful. If you think it is, that's your low self-esteem talking. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/24/2008 4:13:58 AM |
and sell ourselves like meat on the open market. But.. we aren't meat.
No, we aren't, but "market forces" still apply. That's why discussion of the "old paradigm" has validity.
You can question it, and some women worked in the old days, but the ideal held out to everyone was a family where the man worked, and the woman stayed home. Even married working women, with rare exception, expected the man to be the "principal bread winner".
Because that was the "ideal", and because the consequences of pregnancy outside marriage was so great, societal expectations was that "decent women" didn't have sex, unless they wanted marriage. Men even came to view it that way, that maybe they'd "try", but not "too hard", and really didn't want to be with a woman who had sex easily.
That's changed. Women don't view their career path to be to "marry well", and there are a lot of women who want sex as part of a relationship, or sometimes without a relationship at all. Only uneducated, intellectually challenged men, think of women with normal sexual histories as "sluts". It's just different.
So, if a woman, "values" her sexuality as something that men have to "work to earn", that's fine, but men with options aren't compelled to wait. There are many other women, who won't make them. So, while a woman isn't a slab of meat, market analogies apply. A farmer may think his cow is worth $4 a pound, because he's such a wonderful farmer, but if other cows can be bought for $1.29/pound, he's going to have a difficult time selling.
Women can "demand" to be "wooed", and that's fine. There are men who will, often men to be found in the "nice guys finish last" threads, but the men who are in greater demand don't have to enter into a dating relationship with a woman who wants to "control" sexuality, and make him jump through hoops. Most won't. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/24/2008 5:43:38 PM | Women can "demand" to be "wooed", and that's fine. There are men who will, often men to be found in the "nice guys finish last" threads, but the men who are in greater demand don't have to enter into a dating relationship with a woman who wants to "control" sexuality, and make him jump through hoops. Most won't.
Well, speaking for myself, I'm not interested in men who are the greatest in demand. I don't want to wonder where the last place his C**K was. I'm not interested in him if he thinks he's the C**K of the walk. That kind of preening belongs in the farmyard.
Romance and courtship are definitely part of this lady's agenda and I would hope it would continue for say the next 20 yrs. or so......... romancing and courting each other. Take it from a lady who enjoyed years of it and hopes to have it again. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/24/2008 5:52:20 PM |
After viagra only up an additional 20 percent!!!
All those commercials must be completely misleading if you only get up 20 percent more often. If you can only get it up once a month, all that trouble and expense would deliver only another 2 days or excitement per YEAR!! Hardly worth event waling down to the pharmacy for that!
...cough, cough....2 days a year....well thats a little more often than some of us are getting....now I'm just saying.
...maeflowers | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/25/2008 1:11:04 AM | I don't know about Austailian women.. or their particular part in the history of the Austrailian working/business fields.
However.. in the US.. most men were.. and still are.. the principal bread-winners only because they get paid a higher hourly wage than women.. for the same job.. and job description.
How many women became maids.. and professional house cleaners? How many were nurses (the poor of which doubled as cooks in the army camps.) What about Britains own Florence Nightingale? Think of the turn of the century sewing factory fire in Chicago. The factory was made up of nearly all women.. starting from very young ages. The only men in the place were the boss.. and the one foreman. Women from the age of 14 and up have worked in factories of all sorts.. but none have seen more women pass through there doors than the sewing factories. Even good ole Betsy Ross who sewed the first US flag "the stars and stripes" was actually an upholsterer. There were also the paper.. cotton.. and pencil mills/factories of the US that hired women and very young women to work "the lines".. and.. in the 40's.. the men went to war.. and the women.. again.. went to work in even more factories. Factories that only ever employed men before.. because it had to do with heavy labor as well as the assembly lines.. making the parts for planes.. tanks.. jeeps.. and armament.
Only women of privilege didn't ever have to work in the US. Those from the upper middle and upper classes. Middle to lower class women even took in added laundry.. and others children (babysitting).. to earn extra cash.. when they weren't "allowed" to leave the home to get a job. Talk about "control" and "demands".. hmmmm.......?
I don't see how women having jobs has anything to do with the moral fiber of today. What does that have to do at all with women/men courting.. or wanting a bit of romance "in" there relationship.. and not just sex.. or sex first.. or by third date.. then maybe.. just maybe.. a relationship of some sort following.. the sex?
Just as the men that have been spewing such hate for women and womens opinions in these forums as of late.. instead of reading what the women have to say.. and trying to learn how the majority of women feel and care to be treated.. they bash! Instead of looking for some deep dark hidden meanings by reading "between" the lines.. read them.. for what they are.. and stop trying to overanalyze or over-psychoanalyze us. We aren't guinea pigs for the wannabe doctorates. Try using the forum as a tool to learn from one another.
Personally.. I'd love to hear from an Aussie woman on the subject of the history of women in the work/business fields of Austrailia. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/25/2008 7:29:16 AM | | We can all dream.... I know that the dust is laying here.. but I have hope there will be one person on here who I am attracted to who will change the way I think most men are ..Oh look another cow is flying lol | |
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