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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/25/2008 8:05:17 AM | nah serenity, your just proving that your growing more wise with time. why settle? after all we dont know for sure how much time we have left, and when you pass 45 folks lets face it if it aint the second half its pretty close, so why waste the valuable time when we have the most to give of ourselves and our aquired wisdom and love on someone that is not right for us? we not only waste our time, tragic enough in itself, but also theirs. who knows they may miss the right one while in a dead end relationship with us. that is doubly sad i think | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/25/2008 9:02:30 AM |
why settle?
It depends on how strong your desire is to really date or have a relationship. There's a difference between adjusting to reality, and holding out for the perfect other, or else having nothing at all.
The "why settle?" cracks me up, really. If you were out of work, and felt you are worth a 6 figure income, but can't find one, then you will "adjust" to find a good job, that IS available to you. One's preferences aren't just about what you want, but based on what you have to offer, what will be available to you.
Women who have this paradigm in mind that men should "woo" and "wait" for it to be sexual, based solely on the whim of the female, are free to do so. However, many of the men who they would find attractive and with whom they would want a relationship, have an available universe of women, who want to have the same kind of relationship that they do. So, most men with options, will choose not to pursue a confusing, difficult dynamic.
There are, however, some men who will perfectly fine with it. They just not be the men you want. So, you can "adjust" to who is available, and willing to do things your way, or you can adjust your dating style, so as to be attractive to the men you find attractive, or you can adjust by deciding that it's not worth dating, if you can't have everything you want. In other words, to tell yourself that you're interested in dating, but just "can't find any decent men".
I don't care that some women wouldn't want to date me on the terms I consider reasonable. They are irrelevant, so long as there is an available pool of women, who I find both attractive and compatible. There always has been, so there is no incentive for me to change back to an earlier paradigm, as if men didn't have the options that they do in the current era.  | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/25/2008 9:24:31 AM | Re romance and courtship in 2008 with a view to marriage or LTR is concerned the recent case in Georgia and the reminder that at least US law treats a marriage as a financial/business partnership, consists of the meeting of each side's legal and financial advisers to agree on the exact "incorporation" of the "partmership".
Case closed, at least in the US.
Romance and Courtship can thus only exist in STRs and casual, non cohabitation types of liaisons w/o any hint or promise of marriage or equivalent (see case in Georgia). The legal framework is clear on that now.
Unless people can seek romance in countries will less "corporatist" legal views on marriage and LTRs. Or take a time machine back to the Rennaissance!! Venice or Florence, maybe?
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/25/2008 10:04:16 AM | There is fishing in pools of a lagoon and there is fishing in the cesspool. It is relevant to me where a man I am interested in has been fishing before me.
Sherry | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/25/2008 2:40:20 PM | Many of the previous comments have made good sense and are pretty much true and practical. I know that before WW ll and after that it is true "most" all women were homemakers. Did some work a day to day job outside the home? Yes. But the percentage of them from about 1980 or so on back through all history was a homemaker. The man worked a "job", the wife worked her "job" of taking care of the kids and the home. That's just simply the way it was.
Romance and Courtship HAS DIED OUT all but except a little flicker of a flame!
When a decent, kind, caring, male makes the effort to contact, IM, email, phone, meet her and all he gets is the run-around from her, it's dead!
She agreed to this, she agreed to that, no one twisted her arm, she WANTED to do it. Or at least that's what she told him in communication.
Then when he expects the call she PROMISED, it never comes.
She PROMISED to email, again nothing. She agrees to a meet on the phone, and she tells him if all goes well, we'll continue the meet into A DATE. They meet, everything seems fine, and then out of the blue he gets the, " well, we're not a match, I have to cancel, you sure are nice, perhaps maybe another time, gotta go"!
So I pose the question: How is it romance and courtship is alive and well, when SO MANY FEMALES.......................KILL IT before it has a chance to go from a flicker to a flame, IF in fact it may or may not develop into that?
And YES, the PERCENTAGE of women doing this is EXTREMELY HIGH! From all the comments on POF forums from the men and from my own personal experiences,
it is at least 90 to 95%, if not higher.
YOU try it and get the response/results FROM FEMALES that they have given me.
You too will declare that it is all but dead! | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/25/2008 3:26:45 PM |
When a decent, kind, caring, male makes the effort to contact, IM, email, phone, meet her and all he gets is the run-around from her, it's dead!
One of the advantages of "online dating" is its efficiency. Early on in the process, if one or the other loses interest, it's "nice", I suppose, if she says so, but most people would rather avoid the unpleasantness, and simply stop writing/calling/messaging. It's just the way it is, and there are "plenty of fish" in the sea, and it's not real, until it's real life, so why waste time worrying about it?
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/25/2008 6:13:09 PM | First of all I will atempt to define it because I think some don't know what it is... I believe , and help me out ladies, that romance is simply a creative way to communicate that lets that certain special person know what you are thinking and the fact that you are thinking about her. and expressing it in very creative ways....
This is a cut and paste Romance post I created on another forum that somehow got me celebrity status with the ladies but was simply straight from the heart:
This is my humble attempt at being romantic: It's Friday evening and my cell phone rings. My lady says she's running late and should arrive at 7:00 and said she is hungry and tired. I said not to worry I'll fix somethin for ya!
I grabbed a ball of pink yarn and tied it to the door where she would come in to the house. On the end of the yarn at the door I tied on a note card that read. " follow the yarn to your dreams.... . I draped the yarn down the hall to the master bath and drew a nice hot bath and surrounded the tub with candles. One was a scented candle (her favorite) I heard her open the door and stop to read the note. She moved down the darkened hall, she could see some candlelight coming out from the bath and the scent from the candle perked her interest.
The yarn was tied to a stool with another note that says I drew your bath. Relax while I create a memory... and on the stool was a nice big fluffy white robe that I had bought for her birthday that was next month but it seemed appropriate to give it to her now. She came out into the kitchen and wrapped he arms around me while I was at the stove putting a plate together for her. Grilled shrimp and steak pre-cut Delmonico style. If you are taking notes and want to try this , it's okay if you're not a great cook, she will love you anyway and appreciate the PBJ Sandwich and glass of Champagne. The evening went well except she fell asleep in my arms at bed time. But that was okay. I just stayed awake and watched her sleeping for a while. it was awesome...
Next morning I got up earlier and made the coffee, then used the newspaper to fan the scent down the hall to the bedroom where she was still sleeping and next to her cup on the table I left a single white rose with another note that read, Darling I see the child in you and I love it...Then I ran outside to do some yard work and waited. It didn't take long before the door flew open and this fluffy white robe clad beauty came running across the yard and planted one right on the lips, then said come on inside. I poured your coffee. Today is yours....
Romance = creative communications that tells your sweetheart what you really think of her. A little effort to make that happen = fond memories from day to day..
Cobiaman | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/25/2008 6:14:24 PM | Because we make as much as they do these days. So why on earth would they spring for a cup of coffee? It's sad. I was romanced more as a teenager and back then minimum wage was $2.10/hr So the money obviously was not the issue.
I really do not get it. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/25/2008 7:12:03 PM | "Many of the previous comments have made good sense and are pretty much true and practical. I know that before WW ll and after that it is true "most" all women were homemakers. Did some work a day to day job outside the home? Yes. But the percentage of them from about 1980 or so on back through all history was a homemaker. The man worked a "job", the wife worked her "job" of taking care of the kids and the home. That's just simply the way it was."
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Apparently.. that's simply the way it was in "your" experience (or mind).
Talk about a continuing lack of appreciation for the female gender! Women were "expected" to be homemakers.. taking care of the house.. husband.. and children.. but that's not at all the only jobs they "had" to do. They "had" to help supplement the income. If not.. the woman was considered "ill-equipped".. "bad mothers".. "bad wives".. and replaced. Yes.. divorce. Divorce has been around since the time of the Code of Hammurabi in ancient Babylonia. So.. many women had to work to keep their families.. many more women worked 6 days a week.. and.. in such poor conditions that it led to many of the labor laws we have in place today in the US. A few women working? Not hardly! They just didn't have the "rights" to brag about they're "duties".
I can't understand why men have such a hard time letting go of the "image" of the American housewife as being June Cleaver in a nice dress.. high heels.. make-up.. a pearl necklace on.. hair & nails beauty-shop perfect.. yet.. cleaning.. cooking.. doing the wash.. taking care of the kids all day.. alone.. and through it all.. still looking absolutely perfect at the front-door whenever her husband came home from "the office". I suppose then.. she put the kids to bed.. and.. had "great" sex with her husband.. although.. in a darkened room while sleeping in twin beds..or different rooms (turn of the century through the 50's forms of birth control).. and awoke the next morning with breath smelling like daisies.. and not a hair outta place! Hogwash! It's a farce.. created in a mans mind.. about television & movie personalities. It didn't actually exist! If it did in your house? You need to really appreciate your dads intelligence at making such "great" money.. or overt sense of duty in "keeping" the little Mrs.
It was the demands of men put on the working.. mother.. housewife.. that started the womens liberation movements throughout history. Winning one battle at a time.
With all that said.. through doing alllllll those "daily chores" while holding down a job.. women "still" found the "time" and "effort" to want to be "romanced while courting" just "one" man. Sex was unheard of until after the wedding. Now.. women can't find but a few men that want to wait until even the third date.. let alone establish some sort of comfort zone in a relationship.. first. They want it all.. and now! Demands once again! | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/25/2008 7:32:32 PM |
But that's exactly what you were doing when you said the women who were responding were not dateable! You can't play both sides of the argument and expect to be taken seriously.
Redarcangel, this thread isn't about the reality of women's lives in the WWII era, or into the 60s and 70s. One can assume, that if the paradigm were satisfactory, there wouldn't have been the forces in play to create a paradigm shift in societal attitudes.
The point is what was considered the "societal ideal". The nuclear family with a working husband and stay at home mother was presented as the family structure that most people accepted as the goal. The dating paradigm was designed around that goal, and it was generally accepted as what people were "expected" to embrace.
Towards that goal, the accepted dating dynamic was that a woman should be careful to "pick out a good provider", and to be desirable to the men, who were seen as likely to be "good providers", a woman's "reputation" as a "decent woman" was critical. In the 50s, even women who had been sexual, worked very hard to preserve the impression that they were virgins. Men were told that the "ideal" woman would be a virgin on her wedding night, and so on.
That was the societal context for dating, and society in general enforced a paradigm where sex was difficult for a man to find with a "decent" woman, and women were in the position of being able to leverage having something (sex) that was highly desired by men and difficult to find. So, men had to "woo and win", and the expectation was that it would take time and effort.
A byproduct of the women's liberation movement, along with the development of the birth control pill, and ready availability of abortion and now the "morning after pill" was to also liberate women from the societal "rules" that women "weren't supposed" to fulfill their sexual needs outside of marriage. When women were empowered to be sexual beings, in response to their own needs, many women have done just that.
The result of that is that sex is no longer in short supply. There are many women who want and need sex, and men don't have to "work hard" to find a woman who wants a sexual relationship. Women who hang onto the paradigm of a time, when they were the gatekeepers of something (sex) that only men could acknowledge wanting, and was in short supply, are frustrated because men, who have options, recognize that sex isn't difficult to find. If a woman wants to make it difficult to have with her, that' s fine, because there are many other options out there, who won't make it difficult.
So, the "wooing and winning" paradigm no longer applies. What is reasonable for a woman to want and expect, is that a man who is sharing sex, and sincerely has feelings for her, will then be romantic, because he wants her happiness. Some men are more romantic than others, and as all the other qualities in a partner, a woman can determine if a man, with whom she's involved, is meeting her needs, including the need to be shown romantic expression of love. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/25/2008 7:48:05 PM | If I read the word paradigm again, I think I will puke. You theory is so full of holes, it can't hold water. Just because you choose to pick up women who are willing to do you or any Tom,**** or Harry off the street, does not mean that all women choose that same thing. Intimacy is more than sex and most women want intimacy. You only get that with time.
Sherry | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/25/2008 8:00:50 PM | Just because you choose to pick up women who are willing to do you or any Tom,**** or Harry off the street, does not mean that all women choose that same thing. Intimacy is more than sex and most women want intimacy. You only get that with time.
Whitefether, you can stomp your foot, and insist that what's true for you "must" be true for everyone, but it doesn't make it so. Attractive, successful women, with values are often also willing to act on their sexual desire, when they feel strong attraction to a man. Denying the reality, doesn't change the reality, and that there has been a paradigm shift in society is a reality, not some odd notion.
Intimacy is indeed more than just sex, but intimacy, for most people, doesn't exist apart from sex. So it comes down to what is a more acceptable course to follow, as a couple grows closer and develops intimacy? Some, like you, think the way to do that is to share activities, but refrain from sex. For me, I won't feel close to a woman, unless it's sexual, so while working to grow closer emotionally, we are being drawn closer through sex.
You have every right to do things the way that pleases you. I hope you are finding your results satisfactory. Your way, though, is not the "only way", and would be the "wrong" way for me. I have found my way to be satisfactory for me, and for the attractive, interesting, successful women with whom I have been involved.
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/25/2008 8:16:48 PM | Thank you, R.M. for validating that there are "some" women who are not so caught up in this era of sexual freedom that they are not willing to wait for intimacy. And, there are some men out there that feel the same way. But, just as obviously, there are many who now feel the way that you do. Intimacy through sex, or sex through intimacy, it is a choice we all have.
Sherry | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/26/2008 2:46:39 AM | Attractive, successful women, with values are often also willing to act on their sexual desire, when they feel strong attraction to a man. Denying the reality, doesn't change the reality, and that there has been a paradigm shift in society is a reality, not some odd notion.
Women who are attractive, successful and have values usually have high self-esteem, as well. As Ms. Whitefether said, " they don't lay down for every Tom, D**k and Harry. The women I know are self-assured/confident and sexual promiscuity is not part of their "reality" and lifestyle. I don't think there's been a "shift" at all. There have always been people ( men & women) with loose sexual practices, in certain segments of society.
Afterall, hasn't prostitution been hailed as the oldest profession?
Men and women who are genuinely interested in a relationship that sustains them in more ways than just sexually will enjoy the wonderful dance of romance and courtship.
I have found my way to be satisfactory for me, and for the attractive, interesting, successful women with whom I have been involved.
Glad to read how well that's working for ya!
But, I'm looking for a relationship that is more than "just" satisfactory.
When I hear the same old "lines" from supposedly "mature men" that I heard from pimply-faced adolescent boys, with raging hormones, I just shake my head. Esteemed, self-confident women don't fall for a bill of goods. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/26/2008 2:53:24 AM | the other day i was reading about hybrid cars and followed a link where the author explained how much more choice we have today in cars, hundreds versus maybe 50 in the past thirty years.
maybe its the same thing with people, that we've created a culture that allows people to be more diverse than ever before, and when you get that you're bound to get more variety at both ends of the scale. and the lower end is a lot less demanding of self-discipline and restraint and might attract more folks than the opposite end.
i think one of the things we have to guard against as we age is comparing our past with the now. likely it's a losing battle.
but it does make finding people who appeal to us more of a challenge in such a mixed bag of "types". seems to me we can only set our own standards, hope that they are flexible enough to include good people, and go from there. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/26/2008 5:17:11 AM |
Women who are attractive, successful and have values usually have high self-esteem, as well. As Ms. Whitefether said, " they don't lay down for every Tom, D**k and Harry. The women I know are self-assured/confident and sexual promiscuity is not part of their "reality" and lifestyle. I don't think there's been a "shift" at all. There have always been people ( men & women) with loose sexual practices, in certain segments of society.
The judgmental tone of other women's choices is what's annoying about these sorts of posts. Of course, I suppose it is because most other women don't have the same "issues" with sexuality, that it makes it impossible for women who want to gain control through sexuality to do so.
Phoebe48, you were around during the 60s and 70s, and should remember the "sexual revolution" that kicked off with the "free love" movement? It was women who drove it, as part of becoming liberated, and it began in the colleges and universities, and gradually spread throughout society. It was, in fact, the bettter educated women, who first initiated the era of "sex, drugs, and rock and roll".
Over time, as the boomers took their place in the media, and in society, the image presented of dating often includes a "hook up" mindset, that is presented as "normal", rather than a "scandal" as it would have been in WWII.
That "birds of a feather flock together" is true, and I'm not surprised that your attitude is prevalent among your friends. However, what creates societal norms, is how the larger society views things.
There are small enclaves in our society that view women who show their faces in public to be "immoral", and that's fine for their community. It does not, however, have anything to do with societal attitudes. "I FEEL, therefore IT IS" is not persuasive, nor will it affect the market forces in dating. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/26/2008 5:31:28 AM | Romance and Courtship exist, it might not be in that person's personal event horizon (you might become an old man with alot cats or not), palatable, barely, acceptable, yes. There is little fame in trying to tell the future. Seriously, patience and expectations, one is in short supply and other is over supplied. Many people end up online, because of failed expectations, someone had a expectation, that was not met, once, repeatly, who knows, was there is any rational discussion on these issues (sadly, not really). Welcome to the disposal world. Romance/Courtship was here and now it is gone. Romance/Courtship does exist, however, it may be not present, it was in the past and it could be in the future - meanwhile patience and expectations.
Poor Christie B. four bad marriages, all that romance and courtship lost, again, again and again. She collecting children along the way, however, not very good role model (no pun intended). She is "Fast Food America" at its best, she believes in Romance and Courtship, well the court portion for sure. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/26/2008 5:53:16 AM | Message # 143
If you garner a judgemental tone in my post, then perhaps it is based on your own comprehension. I just shake my head again, when I read perceived notions that I'm asexual because I don't "sleep" around. LOL
I post, based on my own personal experiences and "mind-set", for how I want to live my life.
Yes, I was around in the 60's and 70's. I was married, monogamous, employed as well as maintaining a home and raising 3 children. Unlike others, I was not part of the women's lib movement, sexual revolution, free love movement or drug culture. I did, however love "rock and roll". Still do. I have not succumbed to the "hook up" mindset that is percieved as "normal" by the media and SOME people, in today's society.
If those birds want to flock together or is that fock together (?), that would be their choice. I've mostly marched to my own drum.
Romance and courtship are still pretty high on my list of things I'd like to do, one more time before I die. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/26/2008 9:12:30 AM | | Romance and courtship is all what you make it. I make the guy work for the cookies( ie pie) and it takes a long time to get to the tootsie roll center. I expect my hand to be held when I go for a walk a door to be opened but I also do the things for him like looking great the minute I get up in the morning so the first thing he sees is me looking great. I tickle his back or his hair while he watches tv, I get him is food or drinks when he wants them. I expect him to bring me home my favorite treat every now and then. thats the give and take of love and romance. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/26/2008 9:29:18 AM | I agree with the OP.
Especially in this day and age where we meet strangers online, and we go some distances to meet them without knowing their backgrounds, their families, etc.,
Taking it very slow - is preferable.
I swear admittedly like a sailor, I am also a very well educated, professional woman...but you're correct in the relaxing of how lady and a gentleman behaves.
I'm not certain my new daughter-in-law owns a bra. In the 3 years I have known her - I have yet to see her wearing one....!
Times change.
And yet...they don't. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/26/2008 9:50:15 AM | It went the way of "Equality", driven down the road to perdition by Feminist coach-drivers, going bat-outta-hell crazy to get wherever the hell they wanted that stagecoach to go.
It's madness. So y'all will have to deal with "civility" instead of a batting eyelashes at a guy who practices a set of standards originally established to regulate how knights treated each other and the fiefs they dealt with on occasion. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/26/2008 10:00:23 AM | Well Ren, glad you got a  outta settle. For me it is not all that funny. I have had the experience more than once of feeling something good was happeing with me an someone else and her not seeing it that way. I have also been the one who has had to say sorry, I like you but you are not the one. When I use the term setteling it applies to accepting love when you dont feel it. It happens often and is usually associated with the change fallacy, if i meet someone and we click on some level or other i can change them a little in certain areas and he/she will be perfect. aint happening. but lots of folks try. one of the many reason second marriages fail as often as they do. | |
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| Whatever Happened to Romance/Courtship, etc.?
Posted: 7/26/2008 10:10:14 AM |
When I use the term setteling it applies to accepting love when you dont feel it.
That's "faking it", and it doesn't work.
However, when we have our ideal, and look only amongst those that fit the ideal, but find that they are few and far between, or we don't have enough to offer, to be able to attract the ideal, then we adjust who we approach. However, once we approach, interest is reciprocated, and a meeting set...without chemistry, it's pointless.
By "adjusting", I mean, when the results are lacking, to take one's preferences and decide what the "must haves" are, and which things are negotiable.
For me, as an example, the "must haves" are certain characteristics in a woman's appearance that HAVE to be there, without which, I can't feel desire. The other "must have" is that we have compatible sexual attitudes, so that, if there is chemistry, we have the same vision of how to proceed in a relationship.
However, I am flexible about other things, that would be "absolutes" for some. Geogrpahical distance, for example. Other things that would be "nice", but aren't critical, like whether she has long hair, or her level of intelligence. I'm flexible about age. I don't care if she smokes, drinks, or uses (in moderation). And so on.
If one just insists that every preference is an absolute, and one has had no success finding someone, he/she can "adjust", or he/she can anticipate continuing on with "no success". Those people pride themselves on "refusing to settle". | |
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