| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/18/2008 6:54:47 PM | Well if you ask the Iraqi generals, they would tell you that they have defeated AQ. I for one will take their word for it. Why don't you?
There you go moving the goalposts again, and keeping your argument as mobile as possible. Ah well, looks like I'll have to pin you down and force you to answer a very direct and simple question: Are they defeated or aren't they? I didn't say anything about what I believe regarding AQ's defeat, so for you to ask such a goofy question is a rather transparent ducking of my question. Are they present and defeated? Are they present and not yet defeated? Exactly what is going on in Iraq in the world of spintacular Sanderick? I can wait until tomorrow if you need to read your National Review for the answer.
Why don't you document the instances the U.S. has stated it will refuse to leave?
Good luck googling...
You said we'd leave when they asked us to. I asserted they have asked us to, several times... And here you are, punting once again, to something else and avoiding the confrontation entirely.
The U.S. doesn't have to "state its refusal." It's just refusing, period. | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/18/2008 9:49:09 PM |
Well if you ask the Iraqi generals, they would tell you that they have defeated AQ. I for one will take their word for it. Why don't you?
So I guess you won't take an Iraqi's generals point of view.
Are they present? Well the few left alive, sure.
Are they defeated? I guess you would have to ask the ones that are still alive.
Ducking the question? I have asked you to prove your point that you state.
Sanderick, you seemed to be contradicting yourself again. Is AQ defeated, or are they still present?
Your asking me if they are defeated? Don't take my word for it. Take the word of the Iraqi's, they are more qualified give you an answer. They seem to believe that AQ is defeated, which is why they feel confident enough to start the process of providing security on their own, without any coalition assistance.
Why don't you document the instances the U.S. has stated it will refuse to leave?
Good luck googling...
You said we'd leave when they asked us to. I asserted they have asked us to, several times... And here you are, punting once again, to something else and avoiding the confrontation entirely.
The U.S. doesn't have to "state its refusal." It's just refusing, period.
Thanks for proving my point. Now that I have asked you to provide proof of your absurd claim. You simply say the U.S. now DOESN'T have to state it's refusal. "It's just refusing, period.".
First you say that the U.S. is refusing, NOW you state that the U.S. doesn't even have to state a position. We can all now just assume it's refusing.
Pretty slick propaganda i'll have to give you one for that. But it doesn't wash.
Sorry...
Talk about "punting". | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/18/2008 11:59:26 PM | What's to win? Seeing how they never invaded us. If you're talking "spoils of war" sure, we've won, well, the American big oil has. We'll still lose because of all the price gouging.
Oh, and letting our country invade, overthrow, and occupy a sovereign nation, then yeah, I guess we're 'winning.'
I see it as losing. Because in war, there are no winners, only those who lose the least. | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/19/2008 12:11:23 AM | Some very rich men have gotten richer. woo hoooooooo.
If we've actually "won" the Iraq war, perhaps now we can stop losing in Afghanistan. | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/19/2008 1:21:42 AM | Yup , they are winning...
The world is one step closer to globalism , now that a source of non-conformity has been laid low.
Now it's time to begin the process of liberalising that silly and backwards Iraqi culture and installing a more modern politically correct "democratic" central banker ruled society ....just like modern America.
Just think ..instead of praying to some ridiculous god , women can be watching sex in the city while men can be watching football and munching on mcd's . Their kids can go to daycares and play with bratz dolls , and text message each other about the latest cool rap artists
The possibilities are endless .
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/19/2008 3:30:32 AM |
The war is won
The invasion of Iraq has been a farce, and the victors those who are profiting from the disorder there. The Bush administration and its satellites may use the media to claim victory, again, meanwhile the American and Australian tax payer have been ripped off by ideologues and parasitic corporate tyrannies. Spare a thought also for the losers before celebrating a perceived victory; consider the tens, if not hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties, the deliberately uncounted professional and conscripted nationalists who fought the superior invading forces. Wars have never been black and white; there are never only two homogeneous sets of interests at play because wars are too big and expensive for that. Wars are instigated by those in the exercise of power, and it is the powerful that benefit most. Seemingly objectives judgments of victory will only be possible by the meeting of subjectively conceived criteria used arbitrarily by both sides to claim victory or deny defeat, thus such claims are hollow and just what someone wants you to believe.
the Iraqis feel so strongly
“The Iraqis” are not as homogenous a group as the propagandists would have us believe. And as for “the Iraqis” wanting a timetable for withdrawal, most have wanted a withdrawal all along, with or without a timetable. So War or not, the violence in Iraq continues and so much damage is already done both at home and abroad.
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/19/2008 10:07:12 AM |
Oh, and letting our country invade, overthrow, and occupy a sovereign nation, then yeah, I guess we're 'winning.'
Great, someone that admits it. Thank you.
If we've actually "won" the Iraq war, perhaps now we can stop losing in Afghanistan.
Another admission! Thank you. Actually we aren't losing, but along with the draw down some troops will be moved to Afghanistan to help with security. So, things will improve there too.
Yup , they are winning...
Another admission! Well, we have a break through. Thank you.
Not sure about your senseless rant about sex in the city, football and bratz dolls have to do with this thread, so i'll give you a mulligan on that one.
The Bush administration and its satellites may use the media to claim victory
So the London's Sunday Times is a satellite??? Is your tin hat on a little to tight?
Spare a thought also for the losers
I don't spare much thought for Al Queda. I am just glad to see that the Iraqi's are strong enough on their own to kick al queda butt, without U.S. assistance.
The Iraqi's have been stepping up and that's what we have wanted all along.
Bravo to the Iraqi's...
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/19/2008 11:03:28 AM | Sanderick, you seem awfully ill-informed.
Do you really think that the BIG(gest) problem in Iraq was (is) ever Al-Qaeda? | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/19/2008 11:47:47 AM | "Pyrrhic victory" is NOT a synonym for "winning."
Although the voices of business interests selectively report or do not report casualties (and are so racist / xenophobic that they usually do not even consider Iraqi deaths and casualties worthy of coverage), there has not been a "stoppage of U.S. deaths," but a continuation of casualties, just at a temporary lower pace, especially with summer temperatures in that area frequently 100'F+.
Intolerable conditions create resistance, and sooner or later, as has happened in every occupied country, there will emerge a leadership to rally their countrymen
(and -women) to a fight for self-determination and against occupation.
There presently are no forces fighting the occupying foreign armies on the basis of a principled programme -- or any programme for that matter. Those forces' targets are more frequently religious rivals and/or civilians than the occupying soldiers. (Instead of appealing to the Iraqi public for recruiting to and building an organized resistance force, they attack those very people that could and should be their allies or those forces use individual self-sacrifice in tactics that are literally suicidal. Even a "successful" suicide bombing diminishes the numbers of one's side by at least one.)
THAT (minimal support because of lack of any attempt to appeal to working people) is the reason for a TEMPORARY decline in opposition forces in Iraq, NOT any military measures.
One Investor's Daily tool is learning to add (using computer, calculator, or taking off one socks). And a continual increase from the year's starting figure of approximately 4000 U.S. G.I. deaths is NOT "a stoppage." There's another "stoppage" that is non-existent: The end of lies printed in the media to justify continued / continuing intervention abroad by Washington and its allies. | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/19/2008 12:12:02 PM | I for one don't belive one word of the story.
The brits are good at propoganda also as well as GW
Tonites coast to coast am radio show will shed some real light on whats really going on.
OH THE OIL hmmmm the fields are being sold to " forien outside " companies so much for the "oil belongs to the iraqi people"BS Gw gave | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/20/2008 2:06:51 PM |
Do you really think that the BIG(gest) problem in Iraq was (is) ever Al-Qaeda?
Did I ever make that claim? I don't think so.
Are you asking me what my personal opinion of what is the biggest problem in Iraq is?
Well, now that (according to the Iraqi's) Al Queda is defeated.
The biggest problem will be to keep Iran and Syria, from continuing to attempt to destabilize the Iraqi government. | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/20/2008 2:23:42 PM |
The biggest problem will be to keep Iran and Syria, from continuing to attempt to destabilize the Iraqi government.
And who is supposed to do that?
That's a POV from HERE, Sanderick, but not necessarily a POV relevant to the Iraqi government itself.
But that's one of the problems with a vision of the region that takes into account only American "interests" and propoganda. It doesn't have any relationship to the actual realities of Iraqi politics (as was the case, of course, even before the initial invasion).
Edit: honestly, one of the great ironies of this whole debacle is that we've managed to achieve and basically make inevitable the one thing that we supposedly don't want....and that Saddam had managed to keep at bay: strong Iranian influence in Iraq. | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/21/2008 1:05:56 PM | I think in the beginning of conflict with Iraq the main goal was to safeguard nations that border Iraq from SH agressive behavior ie Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey... etc.
It wasnt to stop Iranian influence in the region.
Although maybe a side benifit logistically.........it also gives a flight path from Israel to Iran..........consider the implications there!
But On topic.......which is "...winning isn't news", who can say that Iraq is not a better place for its inhabitants and the region as a whole?
I am sure the Kurds feel alot better off. And I cant recall which but either the Sunni or shiite( spelling sorry) are happier.
And I would venture to say that the region as a whole will be safer in the long run with the new government of Iraq fully operational and functional. | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/21/2008 1:24:16 PM |
I think in the beginning of conflict with Iraq the main goal was to safeguard nations that border Iraq from SH agressive behavior ie Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey... etc.
We had them boxed in with a no fly zone. Ten years of sanctions basically crippled the country.
Both the Kurds and the Shite were happier because the Sunni held the power and you took it from them. This pissed of the Sunni and the Shite got pissed when they found the Washington boys wanted to hold on to it. The Kurds more or less ran the northern part of the country because of the no fly zone so no big change there. The Sunni were left in the middle of the country with the other two controlling the oil.
And I would venture to say that the region as a whole will be safer in the long run with the new government of Iraq fully operational and functional.
Once the US gets out of there all the remaining loonies will head to Afghanistan and the Iraqs should be able to mop up the rest. | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/23/2008 10:52:39 PM | So, after all these side tracked posts, it all comes down to the fact that the major news outlets, just aren't covering the fact that the conflict in Iraq, is being won.
They were able to count off the U.S. casualties each day, but forgot to report the victory those soldiers fought so hard for.
That is beyond shame.
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/23/2008 11:11:13 PM | The American media has been against Bush since before he became president the first time. They were against this war. It was the American media that told the news the way THEY wanted it and not the way it really was.
And you know what? Most Americans took their bait HOOK, LINE, and SINKER. The American media led the public to believe that Bush stole the election even though he won fair and square. The American media has been lying ever since.
Did you notice after the first Iraq election...when the people came out in droves with the threat of death to vote ? Ever since the American media hasn't been so critical of Bush. The media knows that 10-20 years from now most will agree that Bush did the right thing. | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/23/2008 11:54:36 PM |
So, after all these side tracked posts...
Many of them are quoting you and offering a rebuttal. Not exactly side tracking...more like staying on topic.
...the conflict in Iraq
It's a WAR...not a "conflict". Let's at least agree on that point.
What is winning? What has been won?
Please define these terms.
They were able to count off the U.S. casualties each day...
Rightly so...Americans (like just about every other nation) care deeply for their armed forces.
...but forgot to report...
The number of Iraqi casualties.
...forgot to report the victory those soldiers fought so hard for.
"Mission Accomplished" was all over the news for weeks.
If one invades a country to "liberate" (dang, there's that nasty "liberal" root word again) it, then surely that liberation...that success...that freedom...will be defined by what the invaded countries peoples define it as.
How can a liberating invader define success? | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/24/2008 12:06:28 AM |
The American media has been against Bush since before he became president the first time. They were against this war.
WOW....you have a problem with short term memory loss. They were right on board from the get go...flags were waving and trumpets blaring.
Most Americans took their bait HOOK, LINE, and SINKER.
Indeed they did.
The American media has been lying ever since.
The more things change, the more they remain the same. | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/24/2008 12:19:21 AM | I think the bigger problem is that there is still "debate" on whether the war is won on the political front. I mean this in the same way "global warming isn't real" or "evolution might be wrong." Truth value is completely unimportant. What matters is right now the two biggest political stories are Obama and McCain. Obama says the war is basically won, time to go home. McCain says we haven't won yet and leaving now would be like Vietnam or something. He can't actually say it's like Vietnam, then people might remember that his political positions are opposite what they work back then. But he means Obama will pull a vietnam on us.
No matter how many generals, foreign nations, statisticians, UN proclamations, live videos, celebrations of the war ending, or protests over us overstaying our welcome there are. The fact is, right now the only two oppinions that matter are McCain and Obama. One says it's over, the other says it's not.
Also, cable news is actually regulated as entertainment, not educational programing or a source of information. If fox news or cnn wanted to, they are completely within their legal rights to hire script writers and start covering the news in the world they made up for better ratings. As a result, we don't get information from the news, we get entertainment. That's one of the problems with a private media, they are a for profit enterprise. Although, I don't think a channel run by the government would be any better... | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/24/2008 12:30:32 AM | Define success.
Define winning.
Define won.
If bringing an increased but fragile level of stability to part of a formerly sovereign country that you yourself were responsible for destabilizing through an (illegal) invasion by which you caused the deaths of countless civilians and facilitated the judicial murder of the head of state.....is the definition of "winning"...then groovy. Maybe you are right and all and sundry should be trumpeting that from the rooftops. | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/24/2008 12:38:12 AM | I think as an invading power victory should be defined as some sort of gain, the invasion of Iraq has been painful militarily, economically, and lets be honest morally for the United States.
If by every measure the USA is worse off than before the war, how exactly do you define it as winning? Because you're not loosing as many people? How many American soldiers were being killed in Iraq before the war? How much money was being spent? | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/24/2008 3:39:26 AM | So, after all these side tracked posts, it all comes down to the fact that the major news outlets, just aren't covering the fact that the conflict in Iraq, is being won.
If it were true, then you'd see them reporting it. I was watching my favorite news guy last night, and he was talking about how someone on FOX claimed that things are so great in Iraq now that the attacks on convoys have come down to such a lull that....and get this....the percentage of attacks on convoys was about the same there, that we've had.....here. lol I think he was trying to say that the number of attacks is at such a low that it's comparable to something that is non-existent, yet my news guy said there were 93 convoy attacks in Iraq in the first six months of this year alone.
So I guess it depends on what channel you watch, OP. Do you want reality, or do you want something feeding you information that is false or made up? It's time to wake up and look at this with the eyes of an American, not the eyes of a Republican who is sick of everyone picking on his poor little president. | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/24/2008 5:43:17 AM | Our surge, hasn't won anything. Violence is down in Iraq for three reasons:
1) we pay the Sunni insurgents to not attack us. We did that with the Taliban in Afganistan, and look how its working now--attacks are up. But, until that happens in Iraq, the Sunnis are attacking al Quada for us. why?
2) Shi'a attacks went down due to a ceasefire truce. Sunnis don't need AQI to attack the Shi'a anymore. The Shi'a are cleaning up the criminals running under their flag, but how long will that last?
3)Ethnic cleansing is nearly done. the best and the brightest are dead, or outside the country. and that's what the civil war was about. It wasn't really idealistic, that was the outsiders coming in. It was mostly, who's gonna run the country when the Americans go? | |
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| Iraq War - Winning Isn't News
Posted: 7/30/2008 6:02:26 AM | Just in:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080730/ts_nm/iraq_usa_troops_dc
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - The number of U.S. soldiers killed in combat in Iraq has dropped sharply this month, putting July on track to have the lowest casualties for the military since the U.S.-led invasion of the country in 2003.
Five U.S. soldiers have been killed in combat in Iraq so far in July compared to 66 in the same month last year, according to the independent Web site icasualties.org, which keeps records of U.S. military casualties in the conflict.
The drop underscores the dramatic fall in violence in Iraq to lows not seen since early 2004.
Deployment of additional U.S. troops to Iraq last year, a decision by Sunni Arab tribal leaders to turn against al Qaeda and a ceasefire imposed by Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr on his Mehdi Army are all factors credited with the reduced violence....
....Despite the overall plunge in violence in Iraq, four suicide bombers killed almost 60 people on Monday, underscoring the fragility of security gains.
Good news!! | |
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