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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 2:50:58 AM | Nomadic...
It seems to me that the fact that the commander in chief lied to go to war--and the fact that the war itself is illegal and immoral--MORALLLY absolves anyone in the military from fighting it, oath or no oath. The oath service men and women take is taken in good faith. The CIC violated that good faith. Why should anyone be morally compelled to kill for his lies? To make a few people rich? I don't think so.
This isn't even the issue, in my opinion. You think the war, or some aspect of your orders, isn't right...? Fine - you can refuse to fight. But you MUST be willing to accept the consequences of that act - face a tribunal of your superiors and explain your reasoning, and face the punishment if they do not accept your explanation.
The act of cowardice was NOT in refusing to fight... but in running away afterwards. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 3:28:37 AM | Wishes - the UN has a website that shows thusfar how much WMD's were found...a couple of tons of mustard gas shells and anthrax. Many are still wondering how much of the stuff we sold Saddam back in the 80's got sold to other countries and how much was buried in the desert stil awaiting discovery. I used to have a link to the UN webpage that kept up with all of it, but there is a LOT still missing from what the USA, France, & other countries sold to Saddam.
Since most of the raving liberals don't remember Colonel Ollie North, I'll give you the short version on here.
After Iran held our people hostage and Ronnie Raygun got them turned loose, we helped Iraq escalate their ongoing war with Iran by selling them weapons, WMD biologicals, and enhancing their military with CIA advisors. This was discovered and the people involved were put on trial before Congress...one of the most covered was the trial of Colonel Olliver North. From the evidence directly obtained from that trial we then had a LIST of all WMD-biologicals that were sold to Iraq by the clandestine US & French forces. It then came to light that Saddam had used some of the WMD's to kill off the Kurdish population in northern Iraq...so, to sum it all up, WE SOLD THEM THE WMD's...it's just that nobody still knows where the rest are, if they were mostly used up or all buried in the desert like the mustard gas & anthrax. Obviously if we SOLD them to Iraq, we'ed kinda want to find out where they went. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 5:42:43 AM | Bon voyage yellow belly !
If any of these deserters actually believed in their cause, they'd have stayed right where they were in the first place. At least if they'd lost the case, they'd get a little sympathy from me when they arrived in Canada to quiver in the corner and beg us not to answer the door if Bush came calling. That's the thing about a volunteer army...you volunteer for it.
Don't want to get sent to a war you may not agree with ? Don't join an army. It's pretty unlikely the US government will ship you off to Iraq if you don't join in the first place. Of course, unless you've been living under a rock for the duration of your life, it's not like it's the first time the US government has decided to send the army somewhere that posed little to no threat to the US. If you didn't pay attention in history class or pick up a book or two before signing on the dotted line, that's your problem.
If you REALLY believe in your cause, fight for it. Running away is NOT reasonable grounds to admit you into Canada as a refugee of some sort. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 6:54:41 AM | Iran Contra history quote:
This was discovered and the people involved were put on trial before Congress...In the end, fourteen administration officials were charged with crimes, and eleven convicted, including Caspar Weinberger the Secretary of Defense during these events.[9] They were all pardoned in the final days of the George H. W. Bush presidency, who had been vice-president at the time. Perhaps George jr. will consult dad on the merits of pardoning the "deserters" as well. 
Don't want to get sent to a war you may not agree with ? Don't join an army ..That didn't seem to help those that didn't want to join the army during the Viet Nam era.. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 7:29:09 AM | | there are other countries, that will take the deported u.s. soldiers.....like Ireland. The problem is when a soldier turns himself in for refugee status at the canadien border, he is probably giving up his passport as well. He then has to wait for the decision of canadien authorities to review his " refugee" status, and work card, and health card status., and thus he is put in a limbo status, of just waiting for the authorities to make up their minds', on his application for refugee status. My only son went through the process.... after a year of waiting... he turned himself in, faced court- martial in Georgia, and received 6 months at camp lajuene military brig. He is a private citizen now, and waiting for Canada to return his passport. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 8:30:13 AM | I tend to be a bit unsympathetic towards deserters. Same arguments as above - it's not the same case as above and they can't claim they didn't know what they were getting into, etc. etc.
However...
Why should we care?
This isn't our fight. The political scene in the US is their problem. Let them argue about it.
The question for us is this: Would Canada be a better or worse place if we let these people stay here?
I tend to think we'd be worse off; we already have too many people here who won't take responsibility for themselves. One argument on the other side is simply that we need more manpower here, especially in his age range.
Anyway, that's the basis on which we should be arguing. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 12:51:01 PM | I wouldn't give a plug nickel for someone's life who tried to hide in Ireland...especially if the IRA got told they were there...  You REALLY don't want to know what they do to deserters... | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 12:56:33 PM | Well,I don't think Canada is doing too well ,morally by deporting these guys .
Its this right wing attitude that seems to be blowing all over North America ...........
......he should have started "courting " some Canadian girl......................that would have settled it in his favour . I heard a lot of these weddings have happened.............they are young guys after all...................its natural and its not too far from home .Culture is similar................just a thought.....................
oh................the IRA are very Middle East friendly I will have you know !
Any Americans would get a great welcome in Ireland.no doubt about it.Not to mention the girls are lovely. Go for it ! | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 2:09:09 PM |
Its this right wing attitude that seems to be blowing all over North America ...........
Yeah... that insidious right-wing attitude that suggests -
- if you sign a contract, you should live up to the terms of that agreement
- if you fail to do so, you should face the consequences of that decision
- if you believe your cause is just, you should be willing to fight for it
It's a very dangerous attitude to have... that you're actually RESPONSIBLE for the decisions you make.  | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 2:32:39 PM |
Ok, now that the Maple Leaf is no longer protection for deserters, what are your thoughts??? Start a male-order groom business so they can seek haven in the bosum of our fair Canadian women??? I kid... kinda! | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 3:05:57 PM | While I agree with MontrealGuy's comments in principal, I think a part of the problem many Canadians have is that so often in this country so many absolve themselves from responsibility when it is not convenient.
This includes many from whatever Prime Minister we happen to have at the time to the "lowliest" citizen. And they always have a "good reason".
Now to be fair, sometimes there are mitigating circumstances, and there really is a good reason... accepted by superiors or not.
So when someone like MontrealGuy talks about responsibility, obligations of oath, etc., that so few of us actually value and would stand up for...
It tends to go against the grain of those who would simply say, "Well... they don't have to be responsible for ____".
In my opinion, if we treated more people with respect, and demanded the responsibility that goes with it, we would have far fewer problems here... and perhaps the same could be said in the US too.
Now as to how these people that see the war as illegal and do not want to fight... How do they best address the situation? I am not sure. Although I can see they are obligated by their conscious to refuse an order they see as illegal, that is not the same as deserting.
On the other hand, are they likely to get a sympathetic ear at court marshal, which is part of the process? Somehow I doubt it. Perhaps there is a better way for them to proceed, perhaps not.
But deserting to Canada, or anywhere else for that matter, only makes them look a whole lot worse.
Part of the problem is that standing up for what you believe often has a price... and at times that price can be very large. Being willing to pay that price is part of separates men from adult males.
No one wants to go to jail for doing what they feel is right... but if 200 men had gone to jail for refusing what might be an illegal order, it would have brought a considerably larger amount of attention favourable to them and their cause... instead of the negative attention they receive from deserting.
In an odd sort of way, being returned to the states may cause them to take up that fight yet.
I really do not know whether we should be sending them back or not. I still have to think about that one. But while I can respect someone willing to take a hit for acting on their conscious, I think in this case they tried to do without the penalty that comes with it. And right or wrong, it gets cheapened by doing so.
T_M | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 4:06:50 PM | | Some would say that the troops have a legal responsibility to refuse any order they believe is illegal and violates the military's own code of conduct. In that vein, refusing to go fight in a war which could be categorized as illegal, is their moral obligation. I certainly don't believe these people should go to jail and I don't know why Canada is turning them away now when they were so liberal about their borders in the 60's and 70's. There should be a third option of returning to the states to provide some kind of community service, but no man or woman should be punished for refusing to kill others in a war that was illegal from the get-go. I don't consider these people cowards. They are conscientious and take seriously their oath to defend the U.S. I believe, since the oath talks about protecting from all threats here or abroad, then they are quite patriotic in their refusal to fight in this unjust war. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 4:26:44 PM |
MG I usually agree with you or when I don't you make a logical enough case as to not need any elaboration but...
Now when it comes to cases like this one, I feel little sympathy to the men/women involved. They willingly signed up, and took an oath to serve. That means you remove your choice to run away from your moral choices , if you disagree with the decisions made by your government.
Many of these men and women served with distinction in Afghanistan or other theatres of operation, yet balked at this one war.
I can't say I am familiar enough with Long's case to know if this is the case here, but for those that know the entire Iraq action was a debacle and trumped up refusing to be part of it...... those people I believe we owe some sanctuary.
I'm not saying all such people are cowards. Some may have good reasons, special ones, that validate us giving them sanctuary. There is a review process here, and we are not simply grabbing them and tossing them across the border.
They have a chance to explain their motivations, and they will get a pretty fair hearing while doing so. If they are accepted, due to those reasons, then I agree they should have sanctuary. On an individual case basis, there may be certain exceptional cases that we can accept as being valid.
I really don't think that most servicemen and women can claim that, but I will listen before passing judgment - as my government has done. I won't paint all of them with a broad brush until then.
Now had they been drafted, my opinion would change totally.
I've mentioned it before, but some of the best teachers I ever had were Vietnam era draft dodgers, and those ex pats were actually quite patriotic and great Americans - who disagreed with the war, and left their country forever due simply to that and that only. They still loved their country, but they found sanctuary here, and discovered what Canada offered - and decided to become Canadian citizens. They were the ones that introduced me to a lot of great American political figures - like Thomas Jefferson and Thoreau.
The point is these men sent back voluntarily agreed to military service and that oath, in a country where being sent into a war is not something that's impossible. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 5:16:18 PM |
Some would say that the troops have a legal responsibility to refuse any order they believe is illegal and violates the military's own code of conduct. In that vein, refusing to go fight in a war which could be categorized as illegal, is their moral obligation. That hurts on so many different levels...
First, a legal responsibility is not a moral one- the two are separate and distinct, though they may occasionally overlap. Refusing to fight is their moral obligation? I don't believe that's part of the military code. Too many people fail to understand just how much of your choices and rights you have to give up when you join the military.
Soldiers do not have to obey "manifestly illegal" orders. There is a difference between maybe illegal and manifestly. Going to war is not manifestly illegal. The legality of the war in Iraq is not a question most individual soldiers are qualified to answer. Soldiers do NOT get to refuse any order they "believe" is illegal- the order has to be *MANIFESTLY* illegal.
When on a peace making or peace keeping tour, a soldier may be forced to watch and not intervene when a woman is being raped, or a person killed. Most wouldn't call that moral. However, when your ROE's say don't get involved, you don't get involved.
Military law is a very complex subject- you will have the law of the country over it's military members, as well as international law. Sending deserters back home is a legal question. It's not a moral one. Morality varies from person to person. To let something as important as a country's military to be run by individual morals as opposed to rule of law is asking for chaos and would create an utterly ineffective and useless military. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 5:48:48 PM | Msg 25
The Iraq war was not sanctioned by the UN. .. which as I understand it makes it an Illigal Act.
What war did the UN ever sanction?
North Korea. No, UN send in military aid for South Korea.
Veitman? No. The US send in military observers. Then troops.
Invasion of Kuwait? No. UN reselution for the withdraw of Iraqi forces. Didn't work. Send in the troops.
The only time the UN did anything was after a country was invaded.
So if the Iraq is an Illegal Act. Why is the UN not sending in troops to push out the US? | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 6:16:36 PM |
The Iraq war was not sanctioned by the UN.. which as I understand it makes it an Illigal Act. The Canadian Government refused to get involved because the invasion was not sanctioned ~ so, why does the court/govn'mnt of Canada feel that Long (or any other "deserter" for that matter be sent back to America to face charges for something that is illegal to begin with>??
Those that say that Long has a moral obligation to serve because he chose to be in the service ~ have no Idea what atrocities and immoral actions he's witnessed in a war that was never sanctioned and was declared by a man that has lost his credibility to most of the of the world.
1. A war is not ipso facto illegal because the UN doesn't sanction it. The UN is a governing body, however it is not the same as the ICJ. (Let's not turn this into a discussion as to the validity or use or either)
2. Just because the Cdn gov't did not support the Iraq war means we support war deserters. We want our soldiers to go to war when we tell them to, so we support the fact that if American Soldiers are told to go to war by their country, they are obliged to go to war. I mean, let's be real- we don't want to have poor military relations with our largest ally and southern neighbour
3. War is filled with atrocities and immoral actions. That's war. It's not pretty. Never really has been, certainly will only get worse. However, again, morality is not what governs war, but Law of Armed Conflict, and soldiers are given basic rules to govern their actions so they don't have to be experts at LOAC. So I don't care about any alleged moral obligation- he took an oath, which has legal consequences- he signed a contract- again a legally binding document. This is a legal question. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 6:24:51 PM |
They joined and found out it was all lies, so we send them back to the liars. Its the law, and we will live up to it, but maybe we should just understand why... instead of lables. I knew some from the Viet Nam days, and they never struck me as cowardly, but kind of intelligent.
I think the same logic would apply — if we made a mistake (and I use that term lightly) going into this war , what do we do? Keep sending more to die? Keep killing people who didnt do a damn thing to us? I don't see this as a cowardly act at all considering the truth about this war is still coming out. The rules of the game have changed.
When a contract is broken, (and the contract was to protect the best interests of the people not serve the "regime"), all bets are off .. you dont carry on business as usual.
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 6:39:48 PM |
So I don't care about any alleged moral obligation- he took an oath, which has legal consequences- he signed a contract- again a legally binding document. This is a legal question.
I agree, and that's what I'm saying. Do the "crime" , and possibly do the time (if judged wrong).
With the Watada case as jurisprudence in the matter, anyone in uniform may indeed have a good argument in his defense.
At a pre-trial press conference Watada remarked that he believed it his duty to refuse to fight in the war, and that he was prepared to face prison time for his beliefs.[24]
On February 5, 2007, Watada's court-martial began with him entering a plea of not guilty to all of the specifications against him. He faced three specifications: one for missing movement, and two for "conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman" related to his public comments criticizing the Bush administration and the war.[28] Panel selection was conducted on the first day, narrowing a pool of ten officers down to seven, holding the rank of captain through lieutenant colonel. The court-martial panel is similar to a jury in a civilian trial, but due to special rules provided in the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), panels consist of service members equal or superior in rank to the defendant.
On the second day of his court-martial, the prosecution presented opening arguments stating that Watada had "abandoned his soldiers and disgraced himself and the service" and began calling witnesses. The first witness called was Watada's former Battalion Commander, Lt. Col. Bruce Antonia. He testified that he learned of Watada's feelings about the war soon after Watada concluded, in early January 2006, that the war was illegal. Antonia stated, "I told him I was concerned. I did not want this to turn [this] into a big media event." Furthermore, his chain of command counseled him on the consequences of his actions if he refused to deploy and used his position to make a spectacle of the issue. Lt. Col. William James, another officer who counseled Watada, testified that he found Watada's offer to serve in Afghanistan in "direct conflict" with Watada's written statement or stipulation that he did not want to deploy as a "tool" of the Bush administration. Watada had also stipulated that he had indeed missed his brigade's June deployment to Iraq and that he made a series of public statements against the war. In return for the stipulation, Army prosecutors had dropped several counts that knocked two years off the maximum six-year sentence.
The judge ruled that the court-martial was unable to decide the question of whether the deployment order was unlawful, and decided to strike Watada's stipulation, calling it an admission of guilt. Recognizing that the stipulation was the basis of the prosecution's case, Judge Head granted their request for a mistrial.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehren_Watada
Flt Lt Malcolm Kendall-Smith, RAF, used exactly such a defense against deployment to Iraq and WAS convicted - and given an eight month sentence, and was dismissed from the military.
Dr Kendall-Smith will serve half of his sentence in a civilian prison and the remainder on licence.
He was also ordered to pay £20,000 in costs.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4905672.stm
So he was judged guilty, and punished, and accepted the consequences of his refusal to deploy.
That's fine by me, and fair. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 6:55:11 PM |
I've mentioned it before, but some of the best teachers I ever had were Vietnam era draft dodgers, and those ex pats were actually quite patriotic and great Americans - who disagreed with the war, and left their country forever due simply to that and that only. They still loved their country, but they found sanctuary here, and discovered what Canada offered - and decided to become Canadian citizens. They were the ones that introduced me to a lot of great American political figures - like Thomas Jefferson and Thoreau.
Captain Girly Girl has made some very valid points I believe , and covers this issue very well.
Quoted MG`s guy statement as I had the very opposite experience and just wanted to comment on it. My experience with teachers who were Draft Dodgers during that era, was not the same that MG`S were. I had 2 high school teachers who were American Draft Dodgers, neither showed any interest in giving respect for opposing views. In fact, they encouraged students to blindly repeat the rhetoric popular at the time regarding US service men. EG. baby killers, etc.
One of my cousins was and still is listed as MIA , after he was shot down over Hanoi back in 1965 . I took offense to some of that rhetoric , generalizations, and suffered for it at that gentleman hands. My English ( my favorite subject) mark went from 90% in grade 11 to 20% in Grade 12 under that teacher ( I use the term loosely).
Anyway, the Canadian government has done the right thing is my opinion. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 7:04:06 PM | I disagree with Captain Girly Girl. Just because our legislators allowed Bush to invade a sovereign nation does not mean it is a legal act. Most of the consciencious objectors will be using this as their defense: Congress is the only body which can make the decision to go to war and this Congress never had the chance to make a formal declaration of war. Add to that the wars violation of the UN mandates which we are obligated to follow and you have cause enough to say the soldiers had a legal obligation not to follow their leaders into war. I am not faulting those who did, but I will defend those who did not.
And yes, they are obligated to refuse to participate if they believe their actions are in violation of the law. It is absolutely their right to refuse. Again, let me stress I do not belittle those who did serve, but if more people both here in the U.S. and in the military had stood up to our government and said we would not follow their drum beat to war we wouldn't be where we are. For my part, I wrote letters, visited my Congressional representatives, and marched in protest. I knew long before the first shots were fired that this was a misguided war and for those of you who didn't, I suggest you read more. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 8:03:12 PM | wait a second here. Who that guy who owns Wallymart? Whatshisname? Doesn't he have kids who we can call on to fight this war? Maybe the Bush girls. I heard they were pretty tough. Awe come on Dick You've got children don't you? Senator(s) Governor(s) you all have kids of age to fight the war for Pappa. Does anyone else in favour of the aforementioned deportations have offspring to donate to the Bush cause? Tsk Tsk Tsk! Do the "crime" , and possibly do the time (if judged wrong). ?
I hope you all remember saying those words one day when the real Big Guy comes looking for you. Good ruck eh. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 8:14:15 PM | | I was wondering about some of that--What happens in time--how long do they have to stay out of the US, are they fugitives forever if they do not return? If they return to the US are they always going to be prosecuted? by military or regular legal process? So Im guessing once you desert a military obligation, that will stay with you unless you turn yourself in, or face some prison situation. What happens after the time of enlistment is up, or your time of service is over..? I think the military has its own 'judicial system'--not sure that is the right term-- thanks | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 8:17:58 PM | The UN isn't a governing body, it is a DIPLOMATIC body. Understand the difference. Obviously if it were a governing body a lot of things that are going on now (like Zimbabwe) would NOT be.
There are ways to work within the UCMJ when you disagree with your countries policies, but going AWOL and deserting your team is only for the coward. If someone does not believe in fighting a war, they should NEVER VOLUNTEER for a combat MOS. Everyone in the US Armed forces faces a choice when they join...what job do they wish to perform...those who have religious beliefs that do not allow them to fight are assigned non-combat jobs & posts...but they have to select that When They Join.
Civilians tend to not have much of an idea what we give up to serve our country. All we ask is that each of US do our part, when people desert, they wound the whole team...and our teamwork is KEY to success. When one deserts, they become one of the lowest forms of human life, somewhat equal to a child molester....worthy of nothing more than dishonor, disdain, and death. Even in the civilian world, the deserter is looked upon as an untrustworthy individual and the charge will follow them for the rest of their lives. A BCD (Bad Conduct Discharge) trails one like a dark cloud...one that will never go away. | |
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