| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 8:20:59 PM | To be honest, I don't really see how Canada could have answered any differently, without possibly opening up the floodgates. (Note, I said *possibly*).
For new US recruits? Then let's not pretend that anyone joins the US army in this day and age, post 9/11, without having at the back of their mind that deployment to Iraq is either a possibility or (more likely) a probability. It's voluntary enlistment, not a draft, and I can't imagine being that daft that I would sign papers like that on the basis of a "promise" that "of course we'll never send you there", especially soon after the 9/11 attack.
I'm probably a tad biased in this specific case because I'm Canadian, but still... hmm...claiming asylum is usually on grounds that you will be persecuted if you have to return to your country....these soldiers, while probably facing prosecution? I highly doubt they'd be facing persecution in the general sense. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 9:30:21 PM | The brave and respectable troops are the ones who refuse to fight in this war against a country who never ever attacked us.
Only the brainwashed overtly patriotic unread and unquestioning ones will verbally trash this man. There's no honor in attacking innocent people for being on top of an oil reserve.
He sees it, and refuses to take part in it. He was ordered to steal from a country, and won't do it. I applaud him.
The ones who are livid over him are the disgraceful stain on this country. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 9:56:46 PM | | No--the president makes decisions based on his staff--Its not like he sits on a throne and pushes a red button to start a war----this should have been done years ago instead of 'watching' things get in place--we have let Iraq and IRAN have too much control with no actions for too long--then someone makes a decision and all of a sudden its a wrong one? No- the president does not make this alone--WE elect whoever, to direct this county, and if its not what we want to hear---its lets crucify him---jmo | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 10:09:33 PM | Right, it's never his fault, for anything. Pardon you, but isn't he 'The Decider'? 'The Commander Guy'? but it's not his fault when something goes sideways.
This, "I didn't break the vase, the floor did" mentality is disturbing for an adult to still subscribe to, should be left in the grade school.
Remember him saying, "On my orders..." The intelligence was cherry picked, or just plain fabricated. The man child, emperor without clothes, and his administration took America to war, using fear tactics and lies to manipulate you and your friends into believing there was a threat when there wasn't any.
But, it's not his fault, nothing is his fault, if you live in a fantasy world that is. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/18/2008 11:19:23 PM | It's voluntary enlistment, not a draft, and I can't imagine being that daft that I would sign papers like that on the basis of a "promise" that "of course we'll never send you there", especially soon after the 9/11 attack.
To assume our young men (especially), signed papers "on the basis of a PROMISE that we'll never send you there (to Iraq)", is quite a "daft" assumption, indeed.
For anyone who doesn't live in America and have enlistment aged children in the public school systems, you do not know that many of these young men were hounded by military recruiters IN the schools, bombarded with phone calls and print material convincing PROMISES of PAID college education, PROMISES of NEW JOB SKILLS and A BRIGHT FUTURE. Many of these young men, wet behind their ears only had one thing on their mind ... how they were going to get ahead in an already stale economy where they couldn't otherwise afford further education or obtain a job that would lead to a sustainable living ... a future.
That is and was the case in areas that steadily lost their decent paying manufacturing, particularly automotive jobs. What good is in funding an education to those who come back in coffins or serverely physically or mentally disabled?
Other's fell for the war machine propaganda/the lies.
Had this been war (S) to defend our country and not for the sake of occupying, overthrowing and
profitting ...
Are we not putting the wrong people on trial??? What about accountability directed at the war machine?
Something's wrong with this picture. So much so for Canada being a safe haven. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/19/2008 6:02:54 AM | Iraq first got our attention due to Saddam's arm invading Kuwait. We gave him the boot in the First Gulf War. Saddam then kicked out the weapons inspectors the UN sent to keep things nice and refused to account for the weapons that WE sold him...which many are still VERY unnaccounted for. Don't ANY of you wonder where the WMD's that WE SOLD HIM back in the 70's & 80's are? You should. There's a lot of seriously nasty items not accounted for. Who has them now? Where are the mobile biological weapon labs that the French sold him?
A deserter is still a coward. There are MANY ways to work within the military system when you have a disagreement which would result in far less of an onus than desertion. Of course, if any of you civilian sheep made a career of military service you would know that. And you would also understand what a base betrayal desertion IS and why military people take it so harshly. If you run like a coward, you are a coward. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/19/2008 7:44:12 AM | | ^^^ I might buy that if the C-in-C didn't use executive privilege to hide the results of investigation in the Pat Tillman case. And what little information that was released wasn't heavily censored. As I said honestly I am not that familiar with Long's case, I did find it odd that Cory Glass suddenly found himself release and "never AWOL" but still in IRR months after he crossed the border. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/19/2008 9:19:30 AM | I'll admit perhaps governing body isn't the ideal term for the UN- it's a bizarre institution.
And while referring to signing the contract, let me make one thing clear- that's using language lay people understand. The question of service is still a legal one, not a moral one, but classical contract law does not generally apply to a service contract in the military. At least in Cdn law, you sign to serve at the leisure of the Queen- she can dismiss you at her leisure, she can keep you at her leisure. Few other occupations allow you to be imprisoned for trying to quit. There is good reason for treating soldiers like that.
And yes, they are obligated to refuse to participate if they believe their actions are in violation of the law. Again NO. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. That is NOT the legal threshold for the right to refuse to obey a lawful command (lawful command referring to the right of the person to give the command- not the lawfulness of what the command is). We do not, nor will ever have the ability to make our soldiers experts in the law- that is why we have JAGs. To give soldiers the right to refuse orders they *think* are illegal, or immoral, would lead to chaos in the military.
Obeying commands is IMPERATIVE to military structure. (I'd like to think anyone with military service would attest to that).
It's one thing to go over seas and refuse to shoot a civilian. Whole other thing to refuse to go in the first place- which deserters are doing. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/19/2008 10:13:24 AM | GG,
Do you not feel that since this is an American military case, that the Watada ruling does provide a potential case of legal jurisprudence for the man's case we are referring to ? His court martial (unlike the British one) did not invalidate his contention that the war was an illegal one, and I feel that's an important point of discussion.
If one has made this decision, and is willing to take any punishment dealt out if then judged wrong, then all sides have met their obligations. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/19/2008 1:04:55 PM |
If one has made this decision, and is willing to take any punishment dealt out if then judged wrong, then all sides have met their obligations.
Now this is where I agree and disagree simultaneously. If those that came here to escape the war feared PROSECUTION only then they have a very weak case as refugees, but if it could be PERSECUTION then it is a whole new ballgame. This is where the climate in the US and its' blatant disregard for the constitution of that country, international conventions, use of torture, and sidestepping due process raises the distinct probability that a fair hearing is unlikely. Hell, didn't a big chunk of the judicial branch find themselves on the unemployment line BECAUSE they were not strong "Bushies"? Freedom to dissent is critical in a democratic society, and it doesn't look like these people are free to dissent and face prosecution only.
Look at the scorecard of US KIA's versus AWOL/deserters in Vietnam compared to this "war". There is a reason Barry's Bay isn't a city of 100,000 expatriated Americans, back then there was a sense that one could work within the system for change and the country was worth saving by staying and fighting for that change from within.
In the current climate that would make Watada's choice the most courageous to date. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/19/2008 1:33:00 PM |
If one has made this decision, and is willing to take any punishment dealt out if then judged wrong, then all sides have met their obligations. Which is obviously what deserters are not doing. To *this* specific discussion as to Long, I don't see how a courts martial ruling about the legallity of the war is relevant. Cda doesn't have the jurisdiction to make any kind of US binding designation that the war against Iraq is illegal. So US soldiers should be staying in the US and dealing with the US military justice. We as Cdn's should certainly be sending them back- we shouldn't be comparing the US military justice system to kangaroo courts of third world dicatorships, when dealing with refugee claims.
As to the Watada ruling , the court had held he couldn't use the "Nuremburg defence", which is a whole other discussion. It's not that they didn't invalidate his contention, but rather refused to hear it. You can't invalidate or validate something by refusing to hear evidence on it. Again, a very complex legal issue. And lets not forget, Watada's trial ended in a mistrial. I don't think he's been re-tried. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/19/2008 1:46:27 PM | CaptGG we have no authority to make binding designations that anything Mugabe does is "illegal" either. Sovereign nation and all that. But we take refugees BECAUSE the laws in Zimbabwe are being used or interpreted immorally. That makes the argument that the illegality of the war on Iraq is abuse of a law, which if the laws are followed can result in the death of the refugee claimants very valid.
"Because it is law" is no more an excuse than "I was just following orders". Laws are nothing more than an interpretation of our morals. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/19/2008 1:47:45 PM |
Many of these young men, wet behind their ears only had one thing on their mind ... how they were going to get ahead in an already stale economy where they couldn't otherwise afford further education or obtain a job that would lead to a sustainable living ... a future.
That is and was the case in areas that steadily lost their decent paying manufacturing, particularly automotive jobs. What good is in funding an education to those who come back in coffins or serverely physically or mentally disabled?
Other's fell for the war machine propaganda/the lies.
Had this been war (S) to defend our country and not for the sake of occupying, overthrowing and
profitting ...
Are we not putting the wrong people on trial??? What about accountability directed at the war machine?
Something's wrong with this picture. So much so for Canada being a safe haven.
Exactly , if any of these guys become aware that they would be fighting and possibly dying in a war that is directly in opposition to their own interests , then they should be supported and welcomed into Canada.
And something is very very wrong with the picture of Canada deporting them .
The hypocrisy of the Canadian government is astounding and revealing (but , hopefully informative ? ) with regards to assylum seekers. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/19/2008 4:40:58 PM | Do you think as a Cdn gov't we are going to say that the persecution a US deserter faces from the US military justice system is the same as anyone living under Mugabe's regime? That would be ludicrous. Apples and Oranges, and we as a country would be foolish to hold otherwise.
There are two issues here- right of soldiers to desert because they disagree with their orders, and whether or not Cda should grant asylum/refugee status (whatever) to let them stay here. Don't go blurring the two. Arguably, part one is not governed by any law of Cda, part 2 is bound only by Cdn law (though those laws may have considered conventions)
We don't take Zimbabwe refugees because laws are being used immorally. There is NOTHING in the IRPA that mentions laws being used immorally as a basis for a refugee claim. I could tell you about 60 different kids living in Cda where laws are being applied in a manner I certainly consider immoral, however I don't think they'd ever be able to use that for a refugee claim to leave Cda.
Laws are laws- they are (in Cda) made by a democratically elected gov't, and once enacted, can only be interpreted by a judge, and they apply to all people living under the jurisdiction of the law. Morality is relative. It changes and varies from person to person. There is no universal morality in this country- you can't even argue sanctity of life given the debate over abortion and the death penalty.
And are these deserters facing the death penalty? No. Cda tends not to return people facing the death penalty unless we have an agreement the person will not be executed. Bone of contention with our southern neighbour, but that's the way it happens.
"I was just following orders" is no longer a defence to "Manifestly illegal" orders (as I think I've said several times before, however no one seems to notice). Clearly with such a debate as to the legality of those orders, they certainly are not "manifestly" illegal. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/19/2008 5:11:12 PM | Unfortunately we don't shoot or hang deserters anymore. They tend to serve a sentence of less than one year and are then given a Bad Conduct Discharge. That's it. The length of sentence tends to be determined by how long they were gone & why.
It's actually far better for someone to come back, face the music, take the BCD and get on with their lives. Makes a heck of a lot more sense than spending the rest of their life on the run. I just recently worked a case for a neighbor who went AWOL from the Army for 3 months because he decided he liked drinking better...they gave him a month in the brig and a BCD. Now he's working for a Lawn company and only has to worry about stickers in his socks & DUI's. If someone plays it smart they're out of the military in a minimum amount of time with no real headaches other than the stigma of the BCD.
Being Responsible & Trustworthy gets one a lot more benefits than running away...that has ALWAYS been the case no matter where in the world you are. If one at least has the gonads to stand up & face the music for what they've decided to do...they tend to get credit for being a stand-up individual, which means lesser sentences/more respect/etc...
Be a coward & run away and you're yellow for life. People read your name in the paper and think of you as the lowest scum...why get that stigma if you don't have to? Just man up and take a little punishment. Running only makes things worse. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/19/2008 6:58:48 PM |
Be a coward & run away and you're yellow for life.
Or, you could be a coward and just simply and blindly obey orders to fight in an illegal war. What the deserters of this war are doing is much braver to think, question, and do the right thing and not fight innocent people to steal the countries natural resources.
Being Responsible & Trustworthy ...
You talk about responsibility and trustworthiness, but you have no problem with being lied to about the reason to invade. Seems the deserters are the ones who are being responsible and trustworthy in that they're not letting themselves to get used. Do you like being used?
the lowest scum
That distinction is shared with leaders who lie to take their country to war, and people who cheerlead them in doing it with calls for the noble deserters to be shot or hung. Where are your priorities man? | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/19/2008 7:40:17 PM |
Or, you could be a coward and just simply and blindly obey orders to fight in an illegal war. What the deserters of this war are doing is much braver to think, question, and do the right thing and not fight innocent people to steal the countries natural resources. Deserters are not being braver. It is one thing to think question and not fight and face the consequences. Whole other thing to run away to another country. I mean, what's the point in making a stand if you're not willing to suffer the consequences. Brave men would face the courts martials, cowards pack up and run. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/19/2008 7:58:54 PM | By your logic therefore the army is not a force of volunteers. If a man volunteers to defend his country, he should be allowed to decide when he is or is not actually needed to do so. To make that decision given the knowledge available is hardly cowardice. Anything else is just authoritarian brainwashing that says soldiers have a choice when they join so therefore they have no choice when they dont. What a load of BS.
The men brave enough to desert after seeing what has been done in Iraq (read - lies about liberation and WMD) should be rewarded -- not hated and turned into criminals. What the Canadian government has done in this case (going against its own supreme court) amounts to cowardice. It demonstrates that Canada is nothing more then a willful puppet of American masters. Makes me sick to live in this country.
Just more proof that evil people run both our nations.
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/19/2008 8:41:40 PM | Deserters are not refugees, they are fugitives. A refugee is somebody who flees to escape danger or persecution. Deserters don't face persecution, they face prosecution for crimes they committed in their country. They signed a military contract therefore they cannot use "danger" as an excuse to flee. Not to mention that the reasons given were political, not because they were afraid. However I do firmly believe many people use these political arguments to mask their true motives; they are scared and afraid of combat.
All deserters should be deported from Canada. They do not meet refugee status. These people are criminals in their country and we have no business intentionally harboring fugitives. They signed legal contracts and violated their end of the deal by going AWOL. I admire the trait of standing up for what you believe in, but that doesn't include running away because you are afraid of the consequences of your actions. Act like a responsible adult and make yourself accountable for what you've done. Deserters are not brave nor do they have integrity. If they had integrity then they'd make themselves accountable for their actions instead of running away. If they were brave they would face the consequences of refusing to go to war.
As far as I'm concerned there is never an excuse for desertion. These people all willingly volunteered for armed service. Do recruiters lie? Of course! However there are dozens of internet boards where you can ask active duty personnel questions and get the real facts. That's what I did and it helped me make an educated decision for my military career. Anyone who has signed up in the past 20 years has known that conflict with Iraq was always a possibility. They knew it could happen, and signed up anyways. Personally I think most of these people are masking their cowardice with politican reasons. They say that they don't support what happens there, they reference war crimes, etc. Yet have no problem working back home to support the military's actions overseas. The only time they put up a stink is when they are going to be put in harm's way.
Deserters have no place in our country. They should be arrested and taken back to their home country. They disgrace our country by hiding here. One of our guys just died this morning. He died while fulfilling his obligation to this country and these deserters live while running from theirs. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/19/2008 9:36:24 PM |
He died while fulfilling his obligation to this country and these deserters live while running from theirs.
He died while taking part in the plunder and robbery of another country. More power to the decent empathetic soldiers who refuse to take part in illegal and immoral outrages to the human race.
"But I was just following orders" has been used as an excuse before.
running from theirs.
Seems you're in favor of slavery. Listen to you. Running from their orders to basically break into someone's house and steal, only the house is a country, and what's stolen is oil. Yet you remain blissfully ignorant to the fact that this war is illegal. None are so blind as those who do not wish to see. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/19/2008 10:18:20 PM |
Deserters have no place in our country. They should be arrested and taken back to their home country. They disgrace our country by hiding here. One of our guys just died this morning. He died while fulfilling his obligation to this country and these deserters live while running from theirs.
Goes to show how much your mind has been indoctrinated and brainwashed to believe what they want you to believe.
I have worn the uniform. Have you? It is not cowardice to stand against corrupt governments that fill the populations heads full of inhuman crap -- whose sole purpose in doing so is to serve those rulers with blind obedience. Funny how people cannot see that. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/20/2008 12:36:11 AM | Bubble boy:
I have worn the uniform. Have you? It is not cowardice to stand against corrupt governments that fill the populations heads full of inhuman crap -- whose sole purpose in doing so is to serve those rulers with blind obedience. Funny how people cannot see that.
No, I have not. I'm not capable of wearing the uniform at my age and wasn't steered in a military direction when I was capable. I do think, however, in reference to your above statement that one should clearly research what they are getting into before they agree to get into it. Those who are foolish enough to plunge headlong into something that they can't handle are in for a rough education. It's unfortunate that this must be the case, but we simply cannot make it easy and convenient for soldiers to desert our military. We depend on these men as a nation. They must be dependable.
Big Shrek:
A deserter is still a coward. There are MANY ways to work within the military system when you have a disagreement which would result in far less of an onus than desertion. Of course, if any of you civilian sheep made a career of military service you would know that. And you would also understand what a base betrayal desertion IS and why military people take it so harshly. If you run like a coward, you are a coward.
Captain Girly Girl:
Deserters are not being braver. It is one thing to think question and not fight and face the consequences. Whole other thing to run away to another country. I mean, what's the point in making a stand if you're not willing to suffer the consequences. Brave men would face the courts martials, cowards pack up and run.
FF Ryan:
All deserters should be deported from Canada. They do not meet refugee status. These people are criminals in their country and we have no business intentionally harboring fugitives. They signed legal contracts and violated their end of the deal by going AWOL. I admire the trait of standing up for what you believe in, but that doesn't include running away because you are afraid of the consequences of your actions. Act like a responsible adult and make yourself accountable for what you've done. Deserters are not brave nor do they have integrity. If they had integrity then they'd make themselves accountable for their actions instead of running away. If they were brave they would face the consequences of refusing to go to war.
The above are all clearly very patriotic, rational, moral, sensible perspectives on this issue, in my opinion. I agree with these sentiments and opinions. There must be a standard, an expectation of those that join and serve in the military. That standard is that they will obey orders and do as they are told. That expectation is that we can trust them to fulfill their contract and keep the oath they've taken. We must be able to rely on them, much as we do our police officers. There are corrupt police just as there are corrupt, cowardly beings who refer to themselves as "soldiers."
A deserter is not a soldier. A deserter is a man who has disgraced our country. I'm not surprised Canada doesn't want him. I'm not sure he deserves to return to our USA jail. He does need to be prosecuted though. And prosecuted I hope he will be.
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/20/2008 1:06:10 AM |
There must be a standard, an expectation of those that join and serve in the military. That standard is that they will obey orders and do as they are told. That expectation is that we can trust them to fulfill their contract and keep the oath they've taken. We must be able to rely on them, much as we do our police officers. There are corrupt police just as there are corrupt, cowardly beings who refer to themselves as "soldiers."
A deserter is not a soldier. A deserter is a man who has disgraced our country. I'm not surprised Canada doesn't want him. I'm not sure he deserves to return to our USA jail. He does need to be prosecuted though. And prosecuted I hope he will be.
There must be a standard for declaring war. If someone joins the military, they shouldn't be expected to uphold illegal orders, in an illegal war, to steal resources for corporations.
A president is not to be honored if he takes the country to war, using lies and scare tactics.
A soldier has the right to disobey and a moral obligation. Look it up in the war crimes trials. | |
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