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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/20/2008 8:01:15 AM | Big Shrek, the UN is eventually going to say what the US and UK want due to the fact that both are permanent and VETO MEMBERS of the main council and security council. To add to the fact that the US has openly ignore international war crime tribunals and has openly given it's major political and military leaders retoactive immunity for war crimes has me concern. But then as a liberal, I may be mistaken. But then I also was lucky in that when I was involved with my country's armed forces as an officer I manage to avoid the first Gulf War and decided to leave before 9/11 and my government order troop deployment to Afganistan in support of the US war on terror. Yet the connection between Afganistan and Iraq is lost to me.
Oh, FYI. The US does not make up the bulk of the UN forces, and usually ignores the UN call for "Peace Keepers" preferring to act independant and claiming to be "Peace Makers". It might help to keep the peace if the US and the other permanent members of the Security Council quit selling MWD's and other weapons to these people. Colonel North just brought to light what has been known for years.
While I don't agree with deserting from a post, it may be the fact that there was no legal option availible for that person to leave. We don't know all of the situation around this case and the reason for him to desert. I know that there are somethings that would of made me desert and none of it is fear.
Captain GirlyGirl does have a better idea then most of the people in this case. This is a question of law at this point. And while I disagree with Stephen Harper's policies, I am supporting this decision for deportation based on the grounds that if we can show we follow the rule of law and other country's legal proceedures that we can bring the biggest group of international law breakers either to trial or at least get them to change their ways of dealing with the international community. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/20/2008 9:52:56 AM |
Until Bush is impeached and the war declared illegal, your point is positively moot, friend.
Who, in your mind, needs to make this declaration? Because the secretary general of the UN stated pretty unequivocally, almost four years ago, that the war is illegal .
On the other hand, one is capable of using one's brains, at times, to discern things even if they aren't trumpted from on high. If I see a law being broken, I have the ability to know that it's a violation of the law, even if nobody in a position of authority announces that fact to me first.
However, in this case, a person in a position of authority DID announce that the war is illegal....so......
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/20/2008 10:22:25 AM | However, in this case, a person in a position of authority DID announce that the war is illegal....so...... I'm sorry, I don't recall the UN being the sovereign over the US- might have missed that announcement.
See, this is what too many people just fail to understand. First, there are intricacies involved in determining whether or not a war truly is a war of aggression. It's not as black and white as everyone seems to think it is. Secondly, who gets to determine if it is illegal? Well, that could be the ICC, but they don't have jurisdiction over the US, so they have no jurisdiction to determine if the war is illegal. I don't know yet that Iraq has tried to file with the ICJ, or if they have any grounds to either. Participating in an illegal war does not make you guilty ispo facto of a war crime. War crimes are very specific acts. When Iraq annexed Kuwait, that was arguably a war of aggression (lots of interesting legal questions about that too, but that's another discussion) we didn't hunt down every Iraqi soldier who fought and charge them with war crimes.
Mistake of law is not a defence to charges in most jurisdictions, and deserting because you think you'll be charged with war crimes when you haven't been asked to do anything that would put you at jeopardy of being charged, would be mistake of law. Your motive for disobeying a lawful command doesn't matter. And Get Mad, you still fail to realise that soldiers are only authorised to disobey *manifestly illegal* orders. All your other rhetoric is irrelevant- they don't like the war, don't go but have the balls to face the court martial. Arguably, that puts more information and publicity out there than running up to Cda. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/20/2008 10:30:21 AM | And if we were truly stealing oil from Iraq, don't you think oil prices would be going DOWN instead of UP? Free oil would tend to drop prices, not raise them.
You think oil men don't want to make profit? You think that these two oil men want to make less money, and make your life easier? Cheaper gas for us means less profit for them. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/20/2008 11:10:14 AM | I'm sorry Girly Girl, but I do understand what sovereignty is. And in this case, southernlass didn't say "until the US govt determines that its own actions are illegal." She said until is is "declared illegal" which is what I responded to.
I believe in the authority of the UN--as an INTERNATIONAL insitution whose ability to enforce its authority is obviously wholly dependent on the cooperation of its various members. I think OUR defiance of the Security Council in invading Iraq is exactly what it was, which is a violation of the UN charter and thus illegal, whether the UN can exert force of law over the US or not.
And btw, before we go too far down the road of poo poo-ing the authority of the UN, one should bear in mind that we JUSTIFIED this war on the basis of our interpretation of UN Resolution 1441.
Edit: I'm not one who is likely to agree to the maxim: it's only the law if we see it that way.
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/20/2008 12:06:20 PM | These deserters are lucky. Maybe the Governments should have did what they did in WWI and WW II. Sent the troops overseas to fight. Did not bring them home until the wars were over. Now they are overseas fighting for a few months then come home.
Just imagine how many would have deserted if they were over there and would not be back until the war is over. If they did desert which country over there would give them refugee status? 
These deserters are cowards and should not be shown any respect.
They should go back and face the music. (They helped write the lyrics. ) Then they may get more respect after. than they are getting now. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/20/2008 1:12:04 PM |
Don't ANY of you wonder where the WMD's that WE SOLD HIM back in the 70's & 80's are? The only WMD that Iraq has is the Euro and how it's affecting the "Petro (US)Dollar Recyling" Bush's "war" is based on oil. Period!
The mighty US dollar is under threat! | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/20/2008 1:35:23 PM |
Besides, the dissenting soldiers are smart enough and brave enough to question the government's motives to invade, and moral enough to not want to take any part in it. Unlike you, these dissenting soldiers have a mind of their own, a backbone to stand up, and a soul to not want to hurt innocent people.
But they aren't smart enough and brave enough to accept the consequences of their acts. Instead of standing up and fighting for what they believed in (that the war was wrong) they ran away and let other, BETTER, people argue their case for them.
Where was their backbone, when they were confronted with the consequences of their decision??? Where was their morality, when it came time to fight their own battles?
That's neither brave nor smart - it's foolish, lazy, and cowardly.
If you're going to take a stand against authority, you have to be willing to REALLY stand up to it. Don't bail because it's easier.
No respect for THAT.  | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/20/2008 2:32:19 PM | Msg 57:
To assume our young men (especially), signed papers "on the basis of a PROMISE that we'll never send you there (to Iraq)", is quite a "daft" assumption, indeed.
Let’s see…just for example:
Ryan Johnson
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article612898.ece?token=null&offset=36&page=4
“When I joined,” he says, “I joined because I was poor.” He says that jobs were hard to come by in Visalia and he lacked the funds for college. The sign in the strip mall outside the recruiting office beckoned, despite the fact that war was already burning up the Iraqi desert and sending GIs home dead.
“I talked to the recruiters,” says Johnson.
“I said, ‘What are the chances of me going to Iraq?’ They said, ‘Depends on what job you get.’ So I said, ‘What jobs could I get that wouldn’t have me go to Iraq?’ And they named jobs. I picked one of those and they said that I probably wouldn’t go to Iraq.”
Johnson was too unsophisticated to ask probing questions at the army recruiting office, and he didn’t question many of the answers he did receive. “I was 20 years old,” he says defensively. “I thought we were rebuilding in Iraq. I thought we were doing good things.
Jeremy Glass
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/13/world/americas/13canada.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
As for Mr. Glass, he said he was between low-paying factory jobs in Indiana when he joined the National Guard six years ago.
But he said he had one crucial question for the recruiters before he signed. “They told me I’m not going to fight a war on foreign shores,” Mr. Glass said.
Now, while I’m sympathetic to their reasons for joining the army, whether the recruiters lied or not isn’t necessarily the point at the moment. My comment referred to it being a “daft” (or certainly naïve) decision to make, (not to mention a very important and life-changing one), on the basis of a verbal answer with nothing binding to back it up. But claiming that some were essentially browbeaten into joining, or “didn’t know any better”….well that’s just another way of saying that people shouldn’t have to take responsibility for their actions, or be held accountable for their decisions, far as I can see.
To me, if these soldiers want to debate the legalities (or lack thereof) of this war, then that’s an issue that should be taken up through the US legal system and wherever it leads from there. For claiming asylum/refugee status in Canada, these soldiers should be required to prove that they will face persecution, not just prosecution, upon return to the US. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/20/2008 2:37:17 PM | | Msg 86: Your post is all about "honour" Where is the honour in being lied to and brainwashed about the reasons these men and women were being sent to Iraq? All sense of honour is lost to someone who has been dishonoured. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/20/2008 6:24:43 PM |
Goes to show how much your mind has been indoctrinated and brainwashed to believe what they want you to believe.
I have worn the uniform. Have you? It is not cowardice to stand against corrupt governments that fill the populations heads full of inhuman crap -- whose sole purpose in doing so is to serve those rulers with blind obedience. Funny how people cannot see that.
These deserters aren't standing against anything. They are running away. They are cowards. I can respect somebody who disagrees with the politics of a war, and endures the consequences of their actions. I have no respect for a coward who runs to the closest convenient country to avoid reaping the consequences of their actions. Yes, I have worn the uniform I have marched the same soil our Canadian soldiers do today. I know the obligations of soldiers and the disgrace they bring upon themselves when they act like the cowards these deserters do.
Brainwashed? Considering that most of the anti-war argument is recycled, making the same points over and over again, I don't think brainwashed is a word you should use. I've heard your points dozens of times, from different people.
He died while taking part in the plunder and robbery of another country. More power to the decent empathetic soldiers who refuse to take part in illegal and immoral outrages to the human race.
"But I was just following orders" has been used as an excuse before.
No, he died while trying to bring to justice terrorists who think it is a noble thing to intentionally kill innocent people to try and make their point. He died while fighting the scum of the earth.
Seems you're in favor of slavery. Listen to you. Running from their orders to basically break into someone's house and steal, only the house is a country, and what's stolen is oil. Yet you remain blissfully ignorant to the fact that this war is illegal. None are so blind as those who do not wish to see.
Slavery? You've got to be kidding me! When you knowingly sign a military contract, that is not slavery. You know exactly what you're getting into, and what your obligations can and will be.
Whether a war is legal or illegal is something that is proven in a court of law. It's not so just because some people on the internet think so. The war is illegal, then stop running and prove your points in a court of law. The fact is that these deserters do not care about anyone other than themselves. They are not concerned about an illegal war. I've got news for you, you're not going to help solve an illegal war by coming to Canada. This just demonstrates that deserters do not care about their fellow soldiers, nor the people overseas they claim to care about. They are concerned with covering their own asses. What's next, are you going to support a deadbeat dad who fleas the second he realizes his girlfriend is pregnant? I hear excuse after excuse about corrupt governments and conspiracies, but have any of these deserters even tried to stay their ground and fight against the war?
People who condone desertion are condoning a society where you do not have to be accountable for your actions. You are condoning criminal behavior. You dislike an "illegal war" but have no problem with somebody breaking the law by deserting. That is merely hypocrisy. Don't tell me that you won't stand for crime overseas when you support crime at home. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/20/2008 7:51:59 PM | I'm going to try again.
First let me say, I respect the people who choose to serve our country. The impetus to do so comes out of a sense of honor and responsibility for keeping our nation safe. I really do understand that, even if I don't always agree with the policies of our leaders and policy makers.
Secondly, I think it must be overwhelming to be in a combat zone and for some people it is so much more intense than anything they could imagine when they joined. Given that, I'm sure there are some "deserters" who are just plain afraid and overwhelmed, who would use conscientious objection as an excuse to avoid the theater of war. Some of you have called these people cowards as if that makes them somehow evil. Feeling terrified to the point that you can't fulfill the terms of your service must be an awfully hard decision, but I imagine for some of the troops they feel they have no choice. I have compassion for them, for admitting that fear controls you leaves a person humiliated.
The second category of people are those who have been in the war and refuse to return. They've seen the carnage and don't feel like they can live with themselves if they continue to participate. They no longer are able to follow their commanders either because it was so traumatizing or else they realized they weren't fulfilling the role they anticipated and in this case no longer felt like "liberators" but like oppressors. I'm sure some of you consider them cowards as well. I rather liken their experience to an "awakening" to a different reality, one that won't let them continue to participate.
Finally, there are those who, once they learned the details of this war, its manipulated "intelligence", the cloudy judgment of our leaders, the lies about our purpose in Iraq decide they do not believe it is a just or legal war.
It seems to me the real controversy is between those who would see these troops as cowards and those of us who urge a more nuanced and compassionate response (even if their judgment is "flawed" as some of you see it).
So, what does Canada do with these people? Obviously they must follow their own rule of law and I respect that. I believe we must accept the decision of our northern neighbors.
I would just ask some of you to have compassion, whether you disagree strenuously or not, for these soldiers who no longer can serve their country in a war of aggression. Let's not rehash all the reasons we should or should not be in Iraq. But let's understand that a percentage of soldiers discover too late that they cannot honor the contract they made with the military. That's all this is, a breach of contract. They don't want to bring harm to their fellow soldiers, nor to our country. They just can't serve and will have to live with the consequences, whether I think they are too harsh or not.
I will add, although C.O. status is allowed in theory, very few soldiers are granted such status. That is the real reason why these soldiers went to Canada. IF there was another option for c.o.s, this wouldn't be an issue. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/20/2008 8:26:59 PM | | If we don't make the consequences for being "unable to fulfill one's contract" harsh, we'll have more than a few deserting their oath. At that point, we will have to reinstate the draft and a lot more will go in the deserter's place. This doesn't seem like a viable solution to me. The penalties for breach of contract should be harsh, though I certainly can understand and sympathize with the one who cannot complete his contract. This is not a job that just anyone could do. Our soldiers have to be extremely brave and loyal to this country and its citizens to do what they do. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/20/2008 9:42:17 PM | Quoted from MSNBC: "WASHINGTON - Soldiers strained by six years at war are deserting their posts at the highest rate since 1980, with the number of Army deserters this year showing an 80 percent increase since the United States invaded Iraq in 2003.
While the totals are still far lower than they were during the Vietnam War, when the draft was in effect, they show a steady increase over the past four years and a 42 percent jump since last year."
Unfortunately, The US govn'mnt will make an example of the soldier that Canada has deported because the US would be politically assasinating themselves to the rest of the world if they re-enstate the draft for an evasion based on maintaining the US Dollar as the globe's predominate currency. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/21/2008 12:39:46 AM | Posted By: get_mad_baby on 7/19/2008 1221 AM
The brave and respectable troops are the ones who refuse to fight in this war against a country who never ever attacked us.
Only the brainwashed overtly patriotic unread and unquestioning ones will verbally trash this man. There's no honor in attacking innocent people for being on top of an oil reserve.
He sees it, and refuses to take part in it. He was ordered to steal from a country, and won't do it. I applaud him.
The ones who are livid over him are the disgraceful stain on this country.
Wow for someone who preaches about it being wrong and less then honorable to attack someone who hasn't ever attacked you are sure quick to sling stones at the troops who are following orders and doing there jobs and what they believe to be right..
According to you because of my beliefs and involvement with this war I am as you describe one of those " brainwashed, overtly patriotic, unread and unquestioning" and I also one of those men who has no honor because I in your words fight an immoral and illegal war just "attacking innocent people" who haven't attacked me "because they live on top of a oil reserve"..
Its funny that we the " brainwashed, overtly patriotic, unread, unquestioning", no honor having, overly aggressive, war and oil mongers are the very same people who give you the freedom and protect the very right that allows you to even make an ignorant statement like that.. Really no thank you’s are necessary as I can see that its a gift that you don't at all appreciate, that you take for granted and that you think comes for free and with no sacrifice.. Well no sacrifices that you personally are willing or have to make… Do you not see that your pink and yellow colors leave foul marks and are the real “disgraceful stain” on this country? Drop me a line sometime so I can send you a hammer to break the glass on that little fantasy bubble world that you live in.. Oh yeah please fell free to pass it around and share it amongst the rest of your liberal friends as we the “brain washed” find you and your cronies to be unpatriotic, overly read, undereducated, over questioning mindless lemmings who are extremely ungrateful...
P.S. Since you are from Michigan I thought you may be interested that Walmart is having a sale on Michael Moore posters... There to be located in the gun section right in the back of the ammunition isle.
*- Now, look what you do here. Other posters may have criticized soldiers as a group, granted. You may take some offense at that. However, you instead, turn around and criticize this specific poster - this is flaming and is against the rules of this forum - you may NOT do that. Do not do it again.
Misrepresenting another poster's words to make it appear as if they are specifically addressing you instead of a vague group also constitutes libel and is grounds for post deletion and banning.
State an opinion about a group that has "some" basis in fact - fine. Pull it out of your hat for the purpose of a cheap insult (as you do here - cronies to be unpatriotic, overly read, undereducated, over questioning mindless lemmings who are extremely ungrateful... ) - flamebaiting
I leave it up so that you and others can see the CLEAR difference.
The comments are starting to border on shrill so let's all tone it down a touch folks. Address the topic, not each other.-TheMadFiddler-* | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/21/2008 12:46:29 AM | Noone knows what goes through one's own mind but each individual. Noone knows who is right or wrong about this war. Any and all opinions are tired and boring. Talk is cheap. Most of everyoneone's opinion is cheap. This war is and the next one will be as all in the past were. Face it, not one single person on earth knows what is right or wrong in any action of this war or any war. Fighting or deserting, supporting, agreeing, complaining or ignoring. Good lord, get over the hyper-educated pomp and use some native intelligence. Without war there would be no need for peace. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/21/2008 9:19:35 AM | | i could not have said it better....( message 90). thank you . i still respect and honor my son.- forever...., and canada didn't send him back!! , my son turned himself in to the American Army authorities...and did a court- martial, and did prison time. The sad thing about all of this, that my son did, could of been totally eliminated had the U.S. Army given him his CO, and given him other duty elsewhere. He served 4 and a half yrs. Three years in Bagdad, and Bacouba.... i think he served his country.- What is sad,is He doesn't get any of his benefits ,VA, etc.- | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/22/2008 9:44:26 PM |
These deserters are lucky. Maybe the Governments should have did what they did in WWI and WW II. Sent the troops overseas to fight. Did not bring them home until the wars were over. Now they are overseas fighting for a few months then come home
Let's take WW 1 as just one example , and leave WW 2 for the historians...
Basically WW 1 was a fratricidal slaughterhouse in Europe fought for the benefit of bankers and their politician puppets.
The war was conducted from trenches in a military stalemate for years , where millions of men were picked off in a back and fourth killing fields arena with little or no movements of the battle lines.
Commanders would order men to charge out from the trenches only to ripped apart by machine gun fire .
There was one Christmas where some men from both sides of the front line had a spontaineous cease fire and actually shook hands and shared a holiday drink .
Of course , the "brass" could not stand for any of this , so they threatened to court martial anyone who made friendly with the "enemy" and soon the senseless mass killing continued .
If enough men would have been "cowards" , then , millions would not have been senselessly slaughtered.
The more people learn about war , the more people realise war is senseless and wars are always fought based upon lies and propaganda to the benefit of the very powerful ruling class and the Iraq war is definately no different in this respect . | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/22/2008 10:03:43 PM |
Now they are overseas fighting for a few months then come home Read Orccaana's post on this subject.. her son was over there for 3 years not "a couple of months." In WWI and WWII the enemy was known. One can't compare them to the fighting in Iraq (or in Viet Nam) where no one knows who the actual "enemy" is... or where they are half the time. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/23/2008 10:23:21 AM |
Read Orccaana's post on this subject.. her son was over there for 3 years not "a couple of months." In WWI and WWII the enemy was known. One can't compare them to the fighting in Iraq (or in Viet Nam) where no one knows who the actual "enemy" is... or where they are half the time.
Wishes Granted I have been around a while and have logged in more then my fair share of time in the desert and I am pretty sure that Orccaana's son hasn't spent three years straight in Iraq but has but has deployed and rotated in and out of country returning to the United States like most units for the last three years. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/23/2008 10:52:02 AM | I think the main issue that a lot of posters are forgetting here is, this really isn't a thread about whether the US gov't lied to recruits or not, or what the "legalities" of this war are. If these soldiers believe it's an illegal war, then really, change has to come from within the country I think. So, camp enough a$$es out on the lawn at Capital Hill, and start the process that way, is all I'm saying.
As for Canada having to take into account the legalities of the Iraq war during their decision whether to deport these soldiers or not...let's face it. Canada has already declared their stance on this war a few years ago, by NOT sending Canadian soldiers to join it. I think it's pretty unrealistic though, to expect the Canadian gov't to rule on whether this is a legal or illegal war, just for these refugee cases though. I doubt the Canadian gov't is going to cut off their noses to spite their face and go against the US gov't in saying "yes this is an illegal war"...in fact, I don't see them making any declaration one way or the other on that aspect of it. That would be a whole other issue though, and an entirely different thread. For this thread? The criteria for gaining entry based on 'refugee/asylum" criteria is fairly plain. I really don't see how Canada can respond any differently, without opening up the floodgates, as I said.
Also interesting to note....who is paying for these soldiers' legal fees right now? I've even read interviews with a few of them, where they apologize to the Canadian taxpayers for adding costs to Canadian citizens over this. Some of these men have been either working under-the-table in Canada for the past year or two, or living on the taxpayers' buck. I still think the more honourable thing to do, would be starting the protest back home, and going through the US legal system and follow it through from there. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/23/2008 12:48:50 PM | | my awol/ deserter son did two deployments to iraq- first one was Baquaba,15 months, then back to ft. Benning, Ga- for more trainning -6 months- then back to Bagdad , for another 13 months.. Before he went to Canada,- when he was still with his unit in Bagdad, he had filed for CO, and after about five months , he was turned down. This was his turning point.... to end his army contract. He asked his army superiors why his Co was turned down, and he was told that all the CO'S were categorically turned down, because the army doesn't have enough recruits, to fill up the " numbers" that the army needs for its war machine on the ground.( Iraq) My son also served about 14 or so months active duty in Korea, before his unit was sent to Iraq. So if one adds up all the time that my son served in the Army..... it is almost his whole service contract that he originally signed up for., and that was for 6 years. For all of this- he didn't get any benefits from army/ va....... he did, however get wisdom.!!!!!! | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/24/2008 6:22:34 AM | There are ways to get out of the military without a BCD, but I am never going to list them as it would likely cause a problem. By deserting one throws away all potential for military benefits, not to mention adding a few headaches to the equation.
It's as simple as the UCMJ, know it, understand it, USE it. It's not just a blind set of rules, it's there for everyone's protection. Every service member is given at least ONE copy during Boot Camp...it is up to them to learn how to work with the Code...but if they can't, there are legal reps available that can help them figure it out.
I used the UCMJ to my great advantage while I was in...if not for an unfortunate motorcycle crash, I'd STILL be in and having a wonderful time! As it was I used the UCMJ to extend my stay for an extra 9 months until I had used up every available appeal.
Bottom line, Some folks are cut out for combat, some folks ain't. Don't join the ARMY or MARINES unless you've dealt with Blood & Guts in some form or fashion. Being a Firefighter/Paramedic for a few years helps...at least you'll have SEEN some blood & guts so you don't freak out like a city boy. | |
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