| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/26/2008 2:15:27 PM | I'm a veteran and quite honestly if I were still in and sent to Iraq or Afganistan I would find a JAG and claim conscientious objector. I'd be in Iraq and be no helpful and REFUSE to carry a weapon. Call me a coward if you will but I wouldn't run away. When (of course the rich never pay) gw gets tried for war crimes I'll be the loudest cheerleader. After being jailed he then needs to be tried for treason!
If any of you on duty put the name of a cia spy on active duty while that syp is on an active mission you'll get SHOT!!! But not our trembling coward leader who couldn't even make it in the guard. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/26/2008 5:13:30 PM | Seeing as the ICC has no jurisdiction over the US, I don't see Bush ever being tried for war crimes (As many say, the US will never be part of the ICC because they would be charged with war crimes).
Afghanistan is an entirely different situation than Iraq, and the UN is involved with the Afghanistan mission. They are apples and oranges. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/26/2008 10:50:24 PM | CGG do I have to point out that we never had "jurisdiction" over Germany, yet their leaders were obviously tried and convicted by a foreign governing body?
GWB could be tried inabsentia since he'll never have the parts to face down such accusations. Then the US either hands him over as the criminal he is or he stays essentially landlocked on the continental 48.
The guy specifically made changes so that he can't be charges for war crimes in the US.... That is not the action of a man with a clear conscience. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/26/2008 11:02:09 PM | Since when is "opinion" or "choice" part of the Soldier, Marine, Airman's or Sailor's basic issue? I don't ever remember being issued that.. I will have to check my ECR card.. Those are all traits that civilians have and not military personal and when you enlist you freely give up those rights.
When you enlist you take an oath to defend our nation and that sometimes entails going places and doing things that you don't want to do or that sometimes you personally disagree with. That is your job and the job that you freely enlisted to do as no one forced you. It kills me when people say oh I would seek out JAG and "claim conscientious objector status". Doing ones duty is the mark of a true Soldier, Marine, Sailor or Airman. Claiming
"conscientious objector status" because one personally doesn't believe in the mission or has a issue with GW is selfish and does nothing but let your team and platoon mates down as they are willing to do the job even if they don't believe in the mission as they realize that its about your word, your integrity, your buddies and your teammates and then the mission. That is the mark of a professional and the mark of a true Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine as they realize that its about something bigger then them. Sorry I have an issue with someone that is willing to go to the bank on the 1st and 15th of every month and get money for school but then have an issue with doing there job. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/26/2008 11:22:22 PM |
I have an issue with someone that is willing to go to the bank on the 1st and 15th of every month and get money for school but then have an issue with doing there job. And frankly, I have an issue with recruiters who push young men and women who are in a very stagnant economy, with no bright outlook to the future that they should join so that they can Get that education.
We all have opinions..
Thanks to the encouragement recently of someone who's opinion I value, I had the courage to ask my Father, who served in WWII from almost the beginning, why his discharge paper's read "Dishonourably Discharged' (I had seen them when I was just a young woman and was always afraid to ask him why because of his pride of having served) It turns out that I read them wrong and they actually read "Unable to Perform Duties Up To Military Standards" because he had contracted terberculosis just before being discharged (he spent a year in the hospital when he got back home) and would never be able to serve again. He was relieved that I had asked him because he said he wouldn't want to die thinking I thought he was dishonourable. We had a wonderful afternoon discussing his views on deserters, the subject of this thread and some of his experiences while overseas..
He said, during the Viet Nam era, he and my mother rented the upstairs flat in our home to a deserter from Detroit (I didn't know that he was a deserter at the time). He said he doesn't hold anomosity to a soldier who leaves after serving in hell for so long that they feel they have no other choice then to get out, as they'd only be a hazard to the rest of the regiment and couldn't be counted on anymore... This is from a man who is very proud of his military service... and another opinion of someone who served. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/26/2008 11:46:41 PM | "but the president LIED to go to war"
You people really need to do a little research before getting on here and complaining about anything. Google is a fantastic tool, use it. Now there were hundreds of people that seen the evidence on Iraq that the british intelligence had collected including the president and congress. They read over the evidence and made the decision from what they had to go on. Nobody lied.
As for the deserters Canada is sending back its about time. These people knew what they were getting into and they signed up under their own free will. I mean come on people, thats like me signing up to be a cop and then wonder why the hell Im getting shot at! | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/27/2008 12:07:40 AM |
And frankly, I have an issue with recruiters who push young men and women who are in a very stagnant economy, with no bright outlook to the future that they should join so that they can Get that education. This isn't even a valid argument or point as these kids can get grants and loans for school just like everyone else so there is another reason they talk to recruiters.. If they don't want to join they don't have to as a young persons future is about what they choose and it isn't forced on them.. McDonald's is always hiring and so is the Military its there choice.. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/27/2008 12:13:40 AM | ^^^ so then if it wasn't for the "incentives" then I suppose they are just kids trying to find themselves or,..Recruiters coming to highschools and troubled neighbourhoods touting the way to advancement and future enhancement of thier lives. After all I shudder to think they're joining just for the sport of it??!!
I know why my father joined.. an enemy was actually attacking.. weapons of mass destruction were being implemented..and found. I'm sure he would be very proud (but worried) if my brother had followed his footsteps and enlisted, as would I be.. but I also know that we're glad that he didn't have to and that we would support him in a "desertion" from a war on a doubtful enemy had he exhausted all appropriate protocol to get out and was denied. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/27/2008 6:17:09 AM | Wishes, I'm confused by that Discharge your father was given. It's usually an Honorable Discharge Certificate and the DD-214 would show the discharge to be Under Medical Conditions for the Good of the (service). Military members are given a copy of their service jacket (records) when they leave, it may hold a bit more pertinent info if found. If I were you I'd look for the form DD-214. A dishonorable for Tb sounds...odd. Then again, the Army did some weird stuff around WW2...
Recruiters are famed for suckering in the stupid. The smart kids get a former service member to go WITH them and haggle out the details. I wrangled E-3 at end of Boot Camp, guaranteed A-school, guaranteed First Posting, all in writing, and it was followed through. My course for the first four years of service was set and enjoyed and my evals got me everything else I wanted for the rest of my career. Mechanized Infantry is a great way of life! And military service can enhance one's life quite well, I enjoyed the benefits of the Army College Fund & used the GI Bill to purchase a nice chunk of land in a rural area where I can enjoy retirement and do a little farming.
But ANYONE who thinks that Military service means ZERO chance of combat should have chosen Walmart instead, because they are going to end up Darwin'ing out. Even the Coast Guard sees regular combat conditions in the Gulf of Mexico with Drug Smugglers...do people actually NOT pay attention that much??
And yes, there ARE a lot of kids who join the military who are not able to handle combat, but who really IS until they've faced it? The blood & guts alone make around 10% totally malfunction for the first few minutes...some recover & get it together, some don't. Most of that could be dealt with before they even join the military by getting some ground time in with an EMT ambulance crew for about 6 months would take most of them to going "Oh crap, he bought it, better find cover & return fire", instead of standing around and screaming like a loon while making themselves a big fat easy target...at least with some ambulance time they see the blood & guts and deal wth it as such. Most people who CHOOSE the Infantry as a career are in the proper mindset when they join...those who DO NOT choose and let the recruiter PLACE them are in for a world of hurt. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/27/2008 11:56:12 AM |
dishonorable for Tb sounds...odd. He wasn't dishonorably discharged.. I was young and for some reason, I had read it wrong or remembered what I read inacurately. It actually read "Unable to perform duties upto military standards" which of course he had attempted to have changed but was unsuccessful.. He has several medals, served until the war was won and was upset with this "branding" just because they discovered TB on his discharge.
I only found all this out just this week when I got the courage to ask about it because of a discussion I had with someone who said I should ask him about it (thanks him for encouraging me ;0)
Most people who CHOOSE the Infantry as a career are in the proper mindset when they join...those who DO NOT choose and let the recruiter PLACE them are in for a world of hurt. And now the military has lowered the apptitude test scores because many were not passing the standard grade for admitance.. Things are only going to get worse when these young people are "placed" in the infantry because they are unable to make the grade in any other division. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 7/27/2008 2:23:29 PM | Wishes- Glad to hear that, I misread something there I think...
Joining the US military is still a choice thing. They Choose to take the ASVAB exam, to join the military...even though they've seen Jarhead, Full Metal Jacket, Saving Private Ryan, and all the other war movies...heck, back in the 80's it was the "Top Gun" fanatacism...before that it was John Wayne's "Green Berets"! You would think at least some of them would talk to a current or former service member to at least get the scoop on what the REAL DEAL is and how to make the best of it...
Boys will be boys...then again, considering the low numbers of US dead in Iraq...they may very well be safer over there as compared to the people their own age over here...more people in the US get killed in two months by drunk drivers than have died in Iraq over the ENTIRE WAR. Niether kind of death is very fun, but hey, what method of death really IS?? (Don't answer that with "having a heart attack with an 19 yr old hooker", please)
Some people don't really live during their entire lifetime...they just "make do", mostly because they're not smart enough to really stretch out and go after the Brass Ring or they lack the guts to do anything. Everything is what YOU personally make out of it...but you have to step up to the plate and take PERSONAL responsibility for EVERY choice you make...and I truly wish that more people would do exactly that. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 8/2/2008 1:54:33 PM | Wow... I totally forgot about this thread from the time I first posted till now. It sure has wandered off topic...
It's irrelevant to this issue whether the war in Iraq is right or not. Probably almost all of us think it's not. The real question, again, is what does this have to do with us? Why should we involve ourselves in their mess?
Should we do it because taking in deserters fits with our own policy of taking in refugees? No. They are clearly not in the same situation as real refugees.
Should we take them in to register a national protest at what the US is doing in Iraq? I don't think our conscience needs to extend that far.
Should we take them in if they're good for Canada? Sure. IF they are good for us. That's really the only good basis I can see for deciding these cases.
Desertion is a strike against them already; people who abandon responsibilities and break contracts are less likely to become good citizens, I'd hope we all agree.
On the other hand, we do have a looming population problem here and need more young people capable of work. That's the simplest and most obvious reason we might think of letting them stay. I didn't notice anybody making that point, though, which is interesting. Have we totally lost track of practicalities in this ideological debate which really isn't even ours?
Although in general my attitude is that they should go face the music at home, there might be specific cases that we should look at. We should hear them all out and decide case-by-case. | |
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| Canada deports U.S. deserter who opposes Iraq War
Posted: 8/2/2008 2:28:16 PM | | I'm sorry with a volunteer Army I can't see giving refuge to someone who refuses to fight in his country's battles. If he is genuinely politically opposed to the conflict he can disobey and take his chances with a court-martial. If he suddenly finds himself opposed to war on general principle he shouldn't have joined. My entire military career was in the infantry and that while most of it was a physical struggle as I am not a natural athlete, somehow I gutted it out, made E-5 enlisted, finished my degree and earned a commission. I didn't particularly like our mission to Somalia or the way it was handled, thought we underestimated the hostility of the population...and as for Iraq once Saddam was captured I wouldn't have minded a bit if GWB declared victory and came home. Heck if Iraq split into three countries it might well be the best thing. | |
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