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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 4:20:42 PM | Mary,
Remember OJ Simpson? Standard of proof MUCH LOWER in civil court.
Criminal is reasonable doubt.
Civil is mere preponderence of evidence.
While not CONVICTED of killing his wife and her friend, he WAS found responsible for her death. | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 4:33:26 PM | You handled it quite well. In fact, the fact that you were there, listened to her and didn't force a hug on her is exactly what you should have done.
I don't care about statistics. That's an argument y'all can get into all day long.
An excellent book for Survivors of Incest is The Courage to Heal. Also, the Wounded Heart comes to mind. | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 4:50:11 PM | In no way am I trivializing the subject of rape or sexual assault , but these statistics are way off. How can you have statistics of something which has never been reported? The thing is you can't have an accurate number of something which has never been reported. You may not know it , but you are the ones who are hurting women out there who have truly been raped by turning rape into something that seems to happen to just about everyone.
If what the feminist agenda has been saying is true then we have a terrible epidemic of men just about everywhere raping women. I am not trivializing I am pointing out how ridiculous these claims are. It's really sad that you can't see that. | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 4:57:24 PM | Those are the REPORTED statistics of sexual assault in the state of Pa. And your right a lot are never reported so it would make the statistic even higher. How much a percentage of that encompasses rape I cant say. I was a sexual abuse counselor NOT a rape counselor......................
And its also sad that you cant see THAT..............................
I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I have seen the devastation.
I'm done with this thread..........have a peaceful night all.....
PEACE | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 5:00:30 PM | I for one, don't think that stats are always true. There could be even more victims or less - stats are only as good as those that contribute to them and not everyone can openly admit to being part of that stat. Understanding the reality of the world we live in is how I know that this happens. I don't care if it happens to 1 in 3 or less, it's still devastating and wrong.
In any case, it seems that the OP is more interested in debating statistics rather than discussing the original issue lol. But I'm not surprised.... | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 5:00:45 PM | | I don't think that you mary freakin poppins are understanding the other lady poster...it is a fact taht 50 % of women are assaulted somehow by someone before their 18th birthday. any touch that is unwelcome is sexual assault my friend, whether it be a slap on the butt, a touch, a kiss, a grab, there is also the sexual harrassment with doesn't even have to deal with physical touching, ever read the policies at work? Just saying something that is overtly sexual to someone that is unwelcomed can get you fired. Not trying to be rude but I definitely wouldn't go to you if I was in any of these scenario because I feel you would belittle the significance of it...that to me friend is sad. | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 5:07:17 PM | Mary, I'm a survivor myself and as I started to tell my story, it has encouraged other women to open up to me as an advocate for them. 1 in 3 is not an unlikely number at all. It's not something many go around talking about unless they have a reason to do so. I share my story when I need to in order to help other women have the freedom to talk to me. It was a very long time ago and I have fully recovered so it is not painful for me to share anymore. I never reported it and many people have never reported it.
OP, when I share with a man I am close to, I do so in order that he understand where I have come from. Surviving and learning to thrive has taught me to be strong and that's a part of who I am today. I think many share because they feel you have a right to know, they trust you with the information, and they wish you to understand that they have been through hell and come out the other side. So, listen, don't push for details, and respect her strength for coming through it. | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 5:13:37 PM | FIVE former girlfriends who have been assaulted? That's a lot. I do have several close friends who were either raped or sexually molested, two of whom are male and were children. Sexual assault is on the rise. If a woman has truly been assaulted and/or raped, by the time you meet her, she will hopefully have resolved the pain and trauma with support groups and or a therapist.
It's true that we don't need a Knight in Shining Armor to fix us. Gentleness, patience are good. But neither should you be blamed for the mistakes of others. So I hope you will be able to enjoy your relationships without having to carry a lot of the baggage from past events which you had zero control over. | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 5:17:46 PM | Much of the rape research suggests that the majority of real rapes goes unreported. In fact, the figures tell us that only about one-quarter of real rapes are reported to the police as people are also saying on this thread.
Now, imagine a town of 100 men and 100 women. And assume for the moment that the likelihood of a man committing a rape is exactly the same as the likelihood of a woman making a false allegation of rape.
Now, imagine that in this town four men commit a rape one evening.
Well, the evidence suggests that only one of the raped women will actually report the matter to the police.
Now, since we are assuming that the likelihood of a rape is the same as the likelihood of a false allegation of rape, then it follows that since four men committed a rape, then four women will actually make a false allegation about rape.
And so five allegations of rape will be made to the police.
But only one of them will be true.
In other words, 80% of the allegations are false.
And please remember that this is assuming that men are just as likely to rape women as women are to make false allegations about rape - something which, quite frankly, is ridiculous.
I am speaking about rape here , not the broad meaning of "sexual assault" which as one poster said can mean someone grabbing your ass. Someone grabbing your ass should never be placed in the same group as a woman who has been raped. Ask a woman who has been raped if someone grabbing her ass would of been just as bad.
Mens groups put women reporting false rapes at around 42% while womens groups put it at around 2% . Rather big difference. I would say that to be fair we will go halfway and put it at 22%. Even at 22% this is an extremely high number.If out of 4 women who been raped three never reported it , then exactly where do the statistics come from? You can't have statistics on something of which there is no report .
Of course rape happens, and when it does it is a horrible life altering thing which will change and affect a women the rest of her life, but no one is being helped if we start pulling numbers out of the air. Back things up with actual facts , not hearsay . | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 5:24:27 PM | I've had many female friends, many who were bi or lesbian over the last 22 years...almost every one confided in me that they had been molested by relatives/friends/priests...all male. Most never reported it out of fear.
I'd say one in three would be about right. Probably even a LOW estimate. Maybe it's just because I live in the Southern US?
Too many idiots, not enough women with guns.  | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 5:25:30 PM | Thank you for this topic. I've run into this situation as well, and experienced a strong urge to hug or "hold" the person telling me about their experience. It definitely helps to be reminded to proceed with caution, especially with someone who has experienced such a trauma. Even more so given that relating the trauma could bring it closer to the surface.
Now to the "other" issue brought up in the thread.
I just re-read this thread, and I'm pretty sure "mary freakin poppins" is the ONLY person to have claimed 1 in 3 women has been raped. It is kind of silly to point out how ridiculous your own claims are.
Arguing that what qualifies as "sexual assault" should be more strictly or carefully defined to exclude more minor incidences is one thing. There can be legitimate disagreement about that. But saying that there is no way 1 in 3 women have been _raped_, therefore statistics that estimate 1 in 3 women have been sexually assaulted must be way off is either dishonest or woefully misunderstanding the issues. If YOU want to make a distinction between rape and other forms of sexual assault, then it is blatantly dishonest to "alter" someone else's sexual assault statistics into rape statistics.
Doing that sort of this is what gives statistics a bad name despite the fact that properly conducted statistics are impressively accurate.
The are many ways to estimate how many people have been sexually assaulted. Various types of polls and interviews of statistical samples of women are certainly used. Just because you don't understand the technical details behind how statistics are gathered and analyzed does not mean they are bogus.
If the "feminist agenda" were using such statistics to minimize the harm and trauma of victims of what I would call violent rape then that would be a bad thing, but they are doing nothing of the sort. Letting victims and survivors of all forms of sexually assault know they are not along HELPS them. It helps them realize they are not alone, it wasn't/isn't their fault, and there are resources to help them recover, cope, and prevent the perpetrators from harming others.
Even IF anyone other than you were claiming that 1 in 3 women has been raped, that does NOT imply that most men are rapists. First of, 1 in 3 does not quality as most. More to the point, however, it is not uncommon for one sexual offender (what you would call a rapist) to assault multiple people. There are men who have raped dozens of different women. If the 1 in 3 number for sexual assault is accurate, and the perpetrators (for simplicity we'll assume they are all men for now ... not 100% true, but makes the math easier) assault an average of 10 different women each (just throwing a number out there with no research behind it ... it could be lower or possibly much higher), that would mean on the order of 1 in 30 men has commit a sexual assault. Many of the more "minor" variety not approaching rape. | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 5:29:06 PM | | I will say this clearly so that your mind understand mary...the op mentioned both rape and being assaulted, so we are talking about both, because YOU want to target just rape and be right, you have come up with a bunch of drivel and spew it off as fact...not a good thing to do on a forum, because when you talk with ignorance you make a fool of yourself. We do not live in a world of 200 people so your example is ridiculous. Yes women do have false allegations but many retract out of fear and then say they made it all up when in fact the allegation was actually real and true all along...did you think of that? It takes bravery to go against your assailant/rapist as you become the target of ridicule...if you don't believe me just go to your loval courthouse and get some of the public documents there and read them...I am sure you might change your tune a bit...And I am sorry but if some guy came to me and grabbed my ass, I would surely think of that as him being a sexual predator and that he probably has fully assaulted a woman before...one usually does not go without the other, it is all about opportunity. And its all bad, one is not better than the other...you have been seriously misinformed, or are plainly not educated enough on this...I recommend you go into your local womens shelter and speak to those women who have been sexually abused and speak like this to them, I can pretty much bet you wont make any friends there either. | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 5:43:24 PM | Well, since most rapes go unreported I was say that the statistics are probably higher.
This subject isn't trivial. The lady must haved wanted to bond and share a detrimental time in her life with you so that you might somehow understand her sensitivity to certain relationship issues. What a brave girl.
If you're meeting lots of women who have been raped then you must ask why you're attracting these injured souls.
Since most guys seek a barbie doll, brand new and right out of the box, I think that it's nice that you listen to these women with a caring ear.
That's a good thing.
:) | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 5:45:46 PM | | I notice on threads like this that people often erroneously equate the number of women who have been raped with the number of men who are rapists. That's simply not reasonable. A rapist who is not caught is likely to repeat multiple times until they are caught. It's the nature of a predator. One rapist is likely responsible for a great number of victims. My one regret in life is that I didn't report the man who raped me because I'm sure he also raped many others both before and after me. | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 5:58:05 PM | Since this has turned into an argument over statistics, I'd like to throw in something to think about....
As a young man, (20 yrs. old) I was accused of raping a young woman. I was drunk and went into my roommates room to lay down. I fell asleep and didn't remember anything until the next morning. I had a black eye and my ribs were bruised. I had no clue what had happened to me. My roommate was out for the day; and, I was alone when the cops showed up to haul me off. I was informed that I had raped a girl from the party, and she had turned me in. I was shocked and had no memory of any of it. With my injuries, and no memory of what happened, I didn't know what to think. I was torn apart. I've never felt that bad in my life. The world was collapsing in around me; and, I was just hoping I didn't have to survive it.
After about 8 hours of hell, my roommate showed up with a tape that vindicated me completely, and put this woman and her husband on the hot seat. You see... I never woke up again after hitting the mattress. This woman snuck in, removed my pants, and had her fun with me. Her husband came looking for her, and found her in a compromising situation. He lost it and wailed on me for a few seconds, then pulled her out and closed the door. Thank GOD for perverted roommates. He had a tape recorder set up that caught everything; or, I would never have known what happened.
I had a girl in HS accuse me of being the father of her child, when not only had we never had sex (I was still a virgin.), the only communication we had ever had, was when she sent me a love letter, 6 months earlier. I didn't reciprocate the feelings she had. She spread it all around school, and even my closest friends were doubting my side of it. She never pressed the issue with the law and would not let me clear my name with a blood test. To this day there are people that think that is my kid. She's apologized to me now, and the kid knows nothing about it.
What I'm saying here is that while there are lot's of women that have been sexually assaulted, and many that have been and haven't made a big deal out of it. There are many that are just big fat liars. They are more than capable of making up a story to cover their ass, or get back at someone they feel has done them an injustice. Without proof, who do we believe? Who's word do we take when their isn't any evidence? When their isn't a conviction? I don't believe as many women have been sexually assaulted as claim to be. I think regret, or poor treatment after the fact, are the real story behind many of these assaults. Sadly, there are plenty that have been violated. One is too many. | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 6:00:59 PM |
...it is a fact taht 50 % of women are assaulted somehow by someone before their 18th birthday. any touch that is unwelcome is sexual assault my friend, whether it be a slap on the butt, a touch, a kiss, a grab, there is also the sexual harrassment with doesn't even have to deal with physical touching, ever read the policies at work?
Ok, this post from Intell Gurl is a perfect illustration of why it's dangerous to lump the statistics of "political correctness" together with the real rapes. It's even distracting from the issue of real rape, when statistics of "statutory rape" between consenting teenagers, that were really consensual, in with violent rape.
For all the women who are now "seething" at the political incorrectness of my post, let me add that, while in grad school and driving a cab in Chicago, I was held up, kidnapped for 7 hours, and violently raped by 2 ex cons. I then went to counseling for some period of time, because there are as many,or more, issues for a heterosexual man being raped by 2 men, as there are for a woman who is raped. Bottom line, a teen age girl, who has a teen age boy try to put his hand under her bra "without prior permission" is not dealing with the same issues as a woman ( or man) who is raped. One is lumped in as part of a political polemic, and the other creates real and serious issues.
The OP started asking how to deal with someone who has been "assaulted". If she was raped, and has unresolved issues, it's one thing. If she's all in a huff, because some man in her workplace told an inappropriate joke, it's quite another. One needs understanding and support. The other, in my opinion, needs to be told to get over herself. | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 6:11:16 PM | Although five have told me, I'm sure the number is higher. One is an injured soul the others were strong survivors who shared the information as part of who they are.
The intent of the thread was to confirm that I was doing best thing by listening and reaffirming it was nothing she did to cause it.
I had hoped it might also give guys some insight if they ever are in the same situation.
The earlier comment I made about "gravitating towards victims" was in referenence to message 15. I should have either said "victims" or quoted his response. I am new at posting in the forums here and have not read the instructions regarding quotes (You KNOW how guys are about reading, asking for or following directions).
A VICTIM implies helplessness and I did not intend to make to imply to people as "victims".
And the subject title is asking the female respondents to tell guys how YOU would like us to respond. My friends' assaults happened 20-30 years ago. But knowing not to offer a hug without warning was welcome information. | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 6:11:40 PM | ^^^^^^ I'm sorry that happened to you. One of the reasons I never reported my rape was because there were no big bruises. Nothing that I couldn't have got from falling down. I was 16. Went for a walk in the woods willingly with an older man. Kissed him willingly and tried to stop him when his hands ventured below my waist. I blamed myself for a long time. He held me down. I froze and just said no over and over until it was done. Then he walked off. That was my introduction to the sexual act. It's a far cry from the level of some rapes but traumatic all the same.
It's tough out there. Of the women I am close to 6 out the 10 of us were raped at some point in our lives. In Mary's life, none of them have that she knows of. I have to think the number is many more than what have been reported but, at the same time, I'm well aware that some women make up stories to. I don't know if we will ever have an accurate statistic to deal with but I would guess all of us would agree that it's more than we know about. It's a huge problem out there and I don't exactly understand why since most the men I know are wonderful guys. It makes you wonder where the other type come from. | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 6:15:29 PM | I then went to counseling for some period of time, because there are as many,or more, issues for a heterosexual man being raped by 2 men, as there are for a woman who is raped. Bottom line, a teen age girl, who has a teen age boy try to put his hand under her bra "without prior permission" is not dealing with the same issues as a woman ( or man) who is raped. One is lumped in as part of a political polemic, and the other creates real and serious issues.
Absolutely true...There is a vast difference between sexual assault and sexual harrassment.
And men do have their own set of problems, separate and apart from women, not one more devastating than the other, just different. And in many ways the same. And all have to be dealt with.
And maryg....please dont minimize what happended to you. There is no such thing as better or worse when it comes to rape....
PEACE | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 6:16:59 PM | The made up numbers is Msg 34 by "mary freakin poppins" are either misleading or self-contradictory.
The numbers that "assume" an 80% rate of false reports of rape even though later in the post estimates are given that range from 2% to 42%.
When it is assume that "the likelihood of a rape is the same as the likelihood of a false allegation of rape" I suspect the "aim" was for a 50% rate of false reporting. That would only be true if 100% of ACTUAL rapes are reported.
If we take the high end of the range at 42% false report %, then if 4 rapes were committed and one of them reported, there would be either ZERO or 1 false report of rape. The 4 false accusations has absolutely no basis in fact or relation to the real world. 80% is almost twice as high as 42%. It's worth noting that the author of some of the most quoted studies that found 40+% false allegations (Purdue University sociologist Eugene J. Kanin - all conducted in the midwest, largely in mid-size university towns) cautioned against taking that number too seriously saying: "Certainly our intent is not to suggest that the 41 percent incidence found here be extrapolated to other populations, particularly in light of our ignorance regarding the structural variables."
Likely more useful is the FBI estimate of under 10% of rape accusations being "unfounded". Estimates in the 20-25% range may not be totally unreasonably depending on what exactly you're trying to count. See here for more info:
http://backissues.cjrarchives.org/year/97/6/rape.asp
Given how much harder this is to estimate that the number of actual rapes that have occurred, I find it interesting that you try to throw stats and numbers about false reports around while claiming: "How can you have statistics of something which has never been reported?"
So, going back to the example, we need bigger numbers for things to make any sense at all. Rather than absurd made up numbers, let's try some real estimates. According to:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/forcible_rape.html
in 2003 and 2004 there were about 32 reports of "forcible rape" per 100,000 inhabitants in the U.S. If we take the mid to high range of 25% of rape accusations being false, then that means for our city of 100,000 people there should have been 32/4 = 8 false reports of rape and 32 - 8 = 24 legitimate rapes reported. If only 1 in 4 is reported that means a further 72 rapes went unreported.
I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with your numbers, nor am I sure whether you were confused or deliberately trying to mislead people, but as a mathematician I hate it when people mess up the numbers so badly.
I think I'm done researching this for the moment, but to get some idea of the rapists vs. rape victim/survivor ratio, from: http://www.holysmoke.org/fem/fem0126.htm
"From 1984 to 1986, FBI Special Agents assigned to the
National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime (NCAVC)
interviewed 41 men who were responsible for raping 837 victims. "
That's an average of 20 per serial rapists. Naturally, there may be people who commit "date rape" only a few times as opposed to be serial offenders / "hard core" sexual predators. I'd guesstimate the 5-10+ victims per rapist if one could add all the numbers up.
As others have hinted at, I'd be willing to bet everyone knows at least 1 person that has been sexually assaulted, and likely someone who has been raped. A large number of such people (perhaps close to half?), especially from older generations probably never tell ANYONE that it happened. Some have probably even repressed it from their memories altogether or convinced themselves afterward that it really wasn't rape. | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 6:29:39 PM | Pretty Moon,
May I suggest another stage of survival called "swimming" ... that's when you let go of the log and start swimming. I loved your posts here, and Chandler's Wish's also. It's great when we can all agree on things, isn't it. I am a swimmer. | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 6:30:45 PM | Don't make the mistake of giving "date rape" a separate category. Just because you bought a woman dinner or have been dating her does not give you a right to force your will on her. Many people say "date rape" is not as bad, in MY opinion it is WORSE. "Date rape" is STILL forced, and it is WORSE because she TRUSTED him enough to let her guard down.
For YEARS "date rape" has caused the greater stigma because it was believed the woman could have avoided or even encouraged the attack.
Yes, you are right. Two of the women that shared that with me were "date rapes". One by her first boyfriend and one in her late 20's by a "friend" she visited. | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 6:53:56 PM |
No I am not being judgmental about it I am saying that the statistics are greatly exaggerated. What you are suggesting by saying that one in 3 women have been raped is that most men you will come across are rapist or potential rapist. Yes people lie about things all the time for sympathy and whatever other twisted reason they can think of. There is a lot of sympathy and attention to someone who has been raped so therefore someone seeking sympathy and attention will cry rape.
And what evidence do you have to support your subjective interpretation?
Rapes actually are under-reported. Even incest is a form of rape, as is pedophilia. A "not guilty" verdict doesn't mean the defendant didn't commit the offense, only that there was reasonable doubt. It is precisely this twisted kind of attitude that keeps victims reluctant to report, especially when the rapist is known to the victim. The few and far between that cry wolf are few and far between. As far as "sympathy and attention"? Hardly worth having one's greatest humiliation displayed publicly in a courtroom and if friends/family know about it, walking on eggshells afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing.
To the OP, as has already been posted - listen without judgment. Let the woman decide how much to share of the details and don't be intrusive by asking for details. As to how to comfort or support the woman? Depends on the non-verbal body language cues she's projecting out. Just remember it was her experience and no one can rescue her from that experience and its impact. In other words, comfort but don't enable.
As to impact in the bedroom? Depends on the woman, the severity of the rape trauma and other factors. If the woman did not report it and receive rape/crisis intervention followed by counseling, it's very possible that it will. In which case, be patient with her and also encourage her to seek out a rape/crisis support group. | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 7:04:49 PM | Thank you actualizing
I like your analogy of letting go of the log and being a swimmer. Many cannot do that without help. I guess we could call them the "lifeguard".
As for stastics...they matter little to anyone who has been tramatized by sexual abuse.
Stastically ONE IS TOO MANY..........................
PEACE | |
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| Ladies, how would you LIKE us to handle this?
Posted: 7/19/2008 7:07:22 PM |
As to impact in the bedroom? Depends on the woman, the severity of the rape trauma and other factors. If the woman did not report it and receive rape/crisis intervention followed by counseling, it's very possible that it will. In which case, be patient with her and also encourage her to seek out a rape/crisis support group
Or, if a woman has unresolved issues that interfere with a functional relationship, accept that you didn't cause the issues. and therefore, can't fix them. If it makes her unable to function satisfactorily sexually, gently and sensitively move to a 'friend role' and find someone else as a romantic interest.
She isn't ready for a relationship, until she's dealt with her issues sufficiently, so as to have restored sexual function. | |
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