| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/20/2008 5:39:55 AM | I'm wondering where the anti-judgment people are on how you shouldn't make judgments unless you walk in their shoes.
Hey, if they're bashing us "long term separation" people, they're leaving everyone else alone.....for a minute.
I see a lot of assumptions/guesses as to why people remain separated for long periods of time, and yes, a lot of judging of people without even knowing them.
I do know this.....if I confided in a close friend, I'd sure be fired up when I found out she made my dilemma a public issue. | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/20/2008 6:01:02 AM | Runs With Wolves,
This is an interesting question you pose and one that made me think because of my past experiences. I was married for 30 yrs before my divorce 4 yrs ago. My ex & I lived separately for the last 5 yrs we were married. I never dated during our separation partly because I still clung to the hope that my marriage could be salvaged & partly because I wanted to keep my commitment to my wife. A lot of my friends couldn’t understand why I would live separate from my wife for such a long period of time without seeking a divorce. In order to understand you need to know that the first 20 yrs of our marriage were wonderful.
I met my ex at the tender age of 16. We dated exclusively all through high school & got married shortly after graduation. We were blessed with two beautiful children, wonderful rewarding careers & a large circle of friends. Once our children got older & prepared to leave the nest I think my wife got bored. She looked for something to replace our daughter’s dance recitals & cheerleading. She searched for something to take the place of our son’s summer baseball tournaments & Friday night football games. What she found was a new pastime … gambling. It began innocently enough with church bingo once or twice a week & an occasional lottery ticket but long before I knew it … her innocent hobby had evolved into a full blow addiction.
My wife’s addiction came at a very high price. It cost her a career & job that she had for more than 25 yrs. It took a terrible financial toll on our family … we lost our home, had to file for bankruptcy & nearly cost our son an opportunity to attend college. It brought unbelievable drama & chaos into our lives & made our lives unbearable. But through all of this I still loved my wife & believed I could help her overcome her addiction. Eventually my wife complicated thing even more by becoming co-addicted to alcohol, which made trying to reason with her completely impossible. So after 5-6 yrs of this I decided we needed some separation to find ourselves. But I also had a secondary reason for separating. I prayed that once we were apart my wife would realize the high price her addictions were demanding from her & she would commit to recovery. Unfortunately this didn’t happen … she only spiraled further down at an escalated rate.
So I sat on the sidelines & observed. I prayed a lot & asked my Higher Power for guidance. Then one morning I awoke and my thoughts were clear. I had my answer. My wife was not going to change. She was going to continue to embrace her addictions at any cost. So my options were clear. I could reconcile with my wife & accept her & the lifestyle she had chosen to embrace or I could file for a divorce & move on with my life. Thankfully I chose the later.
My reason for sharing this with you is simply this. There is a reason that this man who has asked your friend to move in with him has not filed for a divorce. It may be that he still has feelings for his wife & is waiting for her to change (like me). Or it could be something as simple as he is lazy & it doesn’t matter to him whether he is married or not so why should he go to the trouble & expense of filing for a divorce. Regardless of what the reason is … it speaks volumes about this man’s character. If this were my friend I would tell her to resist the temptation to move in his this man. Whatever his reason is … it will most definitely eventually be a hindrance to her own relationship with him.
Sounds like this lady is lucky to have you for a friend!
Gary | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/20/2008 7:06:45 AM | I would tell her that she would need to make that decision herself. She is grown, and should be able to do what best suits her.
I was separated for over 20 years before my husband passed away. Neither of us planned to get married again, so there was no reason to get divorced. So, most of my "single" life has been as a separated woman. I can't see how being divorced can make a person any more single than being separated, except when it comes to wanting to be married again. So, in our case, divorce was not necessary, and it's worked out just fine for both.
At any time, had either of us decided to get married again, then there would have been a divorce. If she wants to marry this man, obviously, she can't do so unless he gets divorced. Since I don't move in with men, that situation would never come up for me. Would she be satisfied just moving in, or would she expect marriage? Has she discussed whether or not he would be willing to marry her?All decisions only she can make. | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/20/2008 7:43:26 AM | Before she moves in with him, she should find out the legal ramifications relating to child/spousal support.
Here in Ontario Canada, spousal/child support is based upon household income. So, once a woman moves in with the man, the wife can file a request for an increase based on the additional income brought into the household. I believe that, once the divorce is final, this is no longer an issue...but I'm not sure.
I loved my husband from the depths of my soul. Two years and two babies into our marriage, my husband lost his job of 20 years. It took a part of him with it and he became depressed and angry....and started drinking. He had short bouts of employment....a year here...3 years there....but after each plant closing/layoff/firing, he became more depressed...he lost hope and his downward spiral into alcoholism escalated to the point that we almost lost the house. No amount of love or support from me could pull him out of the gutter he had fallen into.
The children and I stayed in the house with him, although the marriage was over. Perhaps a part of me had hoped that he would come to his senses and we could get back what we had in the beginning. Mostly, I stayed because I knew that if I had left, had taken his children away, and forced him to sell the home that he had bought 10 years before he met me, that he would have felt he had nothing left to live for and might not be here today.
He now has is alcoholism under control and has a job that he enjoys. He has a good relationship with his children and we care about each other and have great respect for each other.
We have begun discussions about a divorce or separation agreement and I am willing to wait another year or two, if that's what it takes to get things completed in a caring, respectful way. He would never do anything to hurt me emotionally or financially, nor I him.
This situation has limited my dating experience and has taught me a lot about relationships. I will continue to be completely honest about my marital situation and let the dating chips fall where they may. | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/20/2008 7:50:42 AM | I suspect that if someone were to ask for my advice in a situation such as you've described, I would advise her to have a good, long talk with him before making any plans to move in. He could have definite reasons for not being divorced yet, some of them even legit  But since this seems to be bothering her, she should find out what his reasons ARE, and if he has any intentions of changing his marital status sometime soon.
From there, it just depends on how accepting she is of his reasoning. I was separated for almost 5 years myself before I got a divorce, and I'd probably STILL be married if my ex hadn't wanted to remarry himself, just because I didn't see any value in paying an attorney or a court to give me a piece of paper informing me that my marriage was over. I knew it was over, and that was good enough for me! And I really never thought I should have to have that decree to prove to someone else that my marriage was over either...I should be taken at my word. But we each have our own standards and values, so it's ultimately up to her to decide how she feels about whatever his reasons for not being divorced are. Maybe he just didn't feel like going through the hassle unless/until he met "the right woman". That makes perfect sense to me! | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/20/2008 8:10:46 AM | ...I would have a problem dating someone who is not yet divorced, and moving in with them would be out of the question. In my opinion, a person needs to cut ties that bind both emotionally and legally before they are ready to move forward and start a new relationship.
I had mentioned the following in another thread last year but a friend of mine had been seeing someone who had been separated from his wife for several years , never bothered to get a divorce. He did not see any reason to do so as he was not "marriage minded" anyhow and, if he met "the one" he certainly would obtain a divorce.
Guess what? After they had stopped dating....several months later he went back to his wife.
I would say to my friend, "Tread carefully."
...maeflowers | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/20/2008 9:23:07 AM | | I don't date separated men so it wouldn't be an issue with me. If I had a friend, I'd probably throw my 2 cents in, but at the end, she'll make her own decision. If she takes the plunge, then she's got to live with te consequences. I just wonder if she could've been the "other woman" that added to the demise of his marriage. | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/20/2008 10:06:11 AM | | Well I have met ladies that have never married, ladies that have been married one or more times and are now divorced, ladies that have been separated but have not yet taken that final legal step. If it were my friend I would advise them to tread carefully no matter which path is being taken. Moving in together is a big step that, to me, means a committed relationship. My advice would be to get very clear about those commitments before taking this step. Put them in writing so there is no misunderstanding; you will learn much in the process. If a written agreement cannot be accomplished, keep your separate residence until it can be. I would never, ever, ever move in with a lady or have one move in with me and just hope for the best that it will all work out. | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/20/2008 11:45:54 AM | Wow! I'm simply amazed at how so many of you ladies are apparently able to make such judgements without even MEETING the people you're judging! Would you consider that a blessing....or a curse?
For some of you, separated and married means unavailable...no question about it... and no questions asked, evidently. This kinda crap just makes me more thankful that MY world is full of many colors, and not limited to myopic black and white visions of "how it should be".
OP, I hope you won't quote the opinions of some of the more close minded people here to your friend. While I'm sure it's all intended to be helpful, I think it's best to keep the very one-sided opinions of the VERY closed minded out of your advice to your friend. While she may, indeed, be setting herself up for heartache if she chooses to live with the man in question, there might also very well be a very good explanation for him not being divorced after a number of years.
Methinks some people should be *very* careful, living in their glass houses! | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/20/2008 12:12:40 PM | | Amen Poly.....there's very little in this world that boils down to black or white. Everyone has a right to make their own choices, and as far as I know, as long as our choices aren't illegal, we don't owe explanations for them, except to perhaps the people we care about. Passing judgement on people without knowing anything about them isn't fair to anyone. | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/20/2008 1:17:39 PM | | If he has waited 8 years and still hasn't gotten a divorce, he has no intention of doing so. I would never get involved with a seperated or married man. THe man would be foolish to try and say he was single when he is married or seperated. There would definately be hell to pay on his end. She is crazy to get involved with that man. How does his wife feel about it? Who needs the hassle. | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/20/2008 8:05:49 PM | You know? I wanted to know how you would feel if in the same predicament. What would it do to your senses as a man or woman if you found yourself in the position I stated in the original post.
What would you say if you were asked the same question by your friend? Would you see yourself differently in a relationship if your partner was separated and not divorced?
a lot of judging of people without even knowing them. I do know this.....if I confided in a close friend, I'd sure be fired up when I found out she made my dilemma a public issue.
I took the question a step further Gemstar and that was for you to put yourself in this predicament (man or female) and state how you might feel. I didn’t put her name up on this post nor did I state his name. I could sense you personalized it and felt it’s not for anyone to judge and I understand. I would be curious to know how such conditions might change who you are as a woman in the relationship if anything.
Gpb1953
Gary thank you for your insight as well as the rest of the forum posters.
I have not yet met this man my friend has been seeing, only what I know from her.
I'm simply amazed at how so many of you ladies are apparently able to make such judgments without even MEETING the people you're judging! Would you consider that a blessing....or a curse? please read what I said above.
And no this is not for my friend to read.
Again, my response to her as you’ve read is what it is. I began questioning my response thus the question. For those that are somewhat confused as to the amount of information, I would say your reading far to much into their situation. I asked you how you might feel if you were ‘playing somewhat of a ‘secondary role’ in such a committed relationship’ (my opinion).
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/21/2008 7:11:48 AM | | OP, if you look at Msg. 30, I replied to your question there. The response I made which you quoted here was made to the other posters, not to your question. I apologize for getting caught up in my own feelings on YOUR thread, but I DID understand your question, and responded in kind. | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/21/2008 7:39:51 AM | "What would you say if you were asked the same question by your friend?"
OP I would have told this friend to be sure its the right thing to do. If she knows its right she wouldn't be asking your opinion. She is basically answering her own question before asking it IMO.
Maybe she is just looking for approval and not an answer. | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/21/2008 8:41:39 AM |
No I wouldn't care if his wife was in a permanent coma, advanced Alzheimer's he's not divorced
And what if the situation really were similar to this? What if the marriage partner has been in a nursing home for years with no chance of recovery? I know this isn't the situation with your friend, but I know someone who is separated with no plans of divorcing. He didn't date for several years after having to place his wife in the nursing home, but did eventually meet someone. After about a year and a half, she broke up with him saying there was no future in it. I understand her viewpoint completely and I agree that if marriage is the goal, there is nothing for her or anyone else. On the other hand, I feel so badly for anyone in his situation. His mother wants him to date even though he isn't divorced. I guess she feels that he deserves more than being a caretaker all of his life.
In my case I was dating while only separated for 6 years because of joint properties that had to be sold before the divorce could be finalized. He died before that happened. I had no intentions of ever going back to him and every guy I dated knew the situation. It didn't seem to bother any of them. They knew it was over except for the disposition of assets and the final paperwork. I didn't want to push my husband on the sale of the home he was living in that he owned jointly with me because I didn't want him threatening my life again. I just wanted to be left alone and even though I no longer had anything, I felt it was too risky putting him in the same situation. | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/21/2008 10:13:36 AM | I agree with that to a certain extent. She will make her own life decision's no matter what, all we can do as friend's is provide input up to a point then just be quiet.
As a friend, though, it is our role to help out when issues are cloudy. So I would ask, why, after 8 years, there has been no divorce. If there is a valid reson, ie medical insurance, then what is your friend doing to protect herself legally if he kicks?
It is never our place to judge our friends, it is to assure them, pick them up if they fall, and encourage them in daily life. No matter how loud you might want to yell "run", you can't do it. | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/21/2008 10:24:16 AM | My response is that he is not fully in a relationship with her if the ritual of a divorce has not been final.
I totally agree with your statement. Remaining separated, whether for financial reasons or other, would always leave a question in my mind. There has to be closure and that comes from actions, not just words. | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/22/2008 10:53:29 AM | A really good book in Msg #45 (posted 7/21/2008 12:22 pm ) stated:
You Wrote:
“Good grief, the man has been separated for 8 yrs already. The divorce is just a formality at this point. A signed piece of paper making it legal but it doesn't change anything otherwise.”
My Response:
I know laws change from state-to-sate & I’m certain there are differences between U.S. & Canadian laws. However, 10 yrs ago when I sought out counsel w/a reputable divorce attorney he made me acutely aware of just how much that marriage license (or signed piece of paper) "as you referred to it" means. In my case, my wife had a serious compulsive gambling problem. In the course of getting the money she needed to feed her addiction she obtained joint credit cards in my name & both our names, she wrote bad checks against my account & employed a kiting scheme (whereby you write checks against different accounts), she was able to get possession of her 401k money from her employer & employ many other tactics that enabled her to create tremendous debt in my name & ruin my credit. When I asked my attorney how I could protect myself 100% from this type of behavior he didn’t hesitate … he said I needed to file for a divorce. Nothing less than divorce could protect my financial interests.
You Wrote:
Being married &d separated are 2 entirely different states. I have been separated from my husband for 5 yrs now with absolutely no intention of ever getting back with the no good deadbeat. The official divorce is nowhere in sight as of yet. Going through the whole process has been extremely expensive & at this point, while I still owe my lawyer several thousand dollars I don't care to rack up more legal fees.
My Response:
While the act of getting a “legal” separation does provide some measure of protection, it doesn’t not provide you with blanket protection from all the actions of your spouse. As long as you are legally married there is a implied shared responsibility on your part. After my spouse & I separated she became co-addicted to alcohol. My attorney informed me that if she was involved in a serious traffic accident & was killed, I could be held responsible for any damages she might have caused. This became a big concern of mine when my wife was involved in a minor accident & lost her license due to a DUI conviction.
You Wrote:
I thought getting a divorce should be easy but all my husband wanted was to get out of the deal with as much money as possible so he wouldn't have to work. He hadn't worked for many yrs while we were still married. So, at this point I'm still separated, I have full time custody of our 3 kids & I also have to pay spousal support while he sits home on his a** & plays on e-bay all day. Am I supposed to put my life on hold until I'm officially divorced? I'd like to find someone to share my life with & the fellows who I have dated have never had a problem with this. It's the intent that counts, not the piece of paper.
My Response:
Nobody ever felt they had a better case for divorce than I when I finally elected to file 6 yrs ago. My wife had displayed reckless, irresponsible financial behavior for the past 8 yrs as a result of her addiction to compulsive gambling. And, being a stickler for paperwork, I had documented everything. I had papers showing that she had been enrolled in a residential treatment program for compulsive gamblers. I also had documentation showing that she had dropped out of several treatment programs aimed at treating her alcoholism. I had a group of former employers willing to testify that they terminated her employment with her on suspicion of theft. She also had made several unsuccessful suicide attempts & in her own handwriting credited these attempts to her addictions. Through all of this … I maintained a good job, paid our bills as best I could & raised my two children. I was also the guiding force behind her seeking treatment.
Finally we agreed to voluntarily separate (without the assistance of the legal community). We lived separately for almost 4 yrs before I finally decided to file for a divorce. I took my time & chose a very reputable attorney. My ex was appointed a court-compensated attorney to represent her. Like your husband, my wife told me she would be focused on getting as much money as possible from me. As expected she immediately filed for temporary spousal support & while I resisted my attorney let me know I had no chance of successfully appealing her request. So instead I asked that a court-appointed representative be named that I could make the payments to so they could oversee that the money was spent on life expenses vs. alcohol & gambling. The judge refused to even listen to my request. I was told it was none of my business how the money was spent.
As the trail preceded my wife used every tactic she could to prolong the divorce. As long as the trial continued she was guaranteed a monthly spousal support which she used to feed her addictions to gambling & alcohol. To make matters worst, my attorney made me aware that since Ohio is a “no-fault” divorce state. The judge that hears our case does not have to listen to arguments of what was morally right & wrong AND much of what could be presented as legal wrongs would be considered the joint responsibility of both parties since we were married. I couldn’t believe it so I did some research. I found some very similar cases & studied the results & found that what my attorney was telling me was 100% accurate.
In the end, the best approach for me was to negotiate a financial settlement with my wife that she would accept. Since I knew her better than anyone else, I was the best person to tackle this challenge. So that’s what I did. In the end my attorney fees amounted to a little less than $5,000. I negotiated a lump sum payment of $16,000 with my ex that would be paid in 4 annual installments.
It may seem like a high price to pay but believe me … based on the research I did … I got off pretty easy. There are others who stubbornly refused to negotiate & instead let the courts decide that now find themselves paying a monthly spousal support fee for LIFE! That’s right for LIFE! It happens more than you think .
So, if I may return to your original statement …“Good grief, the man has been separated for 8 yrs already. The divorce is just a formality at this point. A signed piece of paper making it legal but it doesn't change anything otherwise.” I respectfully disagree with you. That signed piece of paper (divorce decree) is worth every penny it will cost you. It not only represents your departure from a bad relationship but it also is your guarantee that you will no longer be responsible for any poor decisions this man may make in the future.
I apologize for the length of my reply but I simply wanted to be as detailed as possible to explain myself. I have all the empathy in the world for you but please arrange to consult with an attorney about your situation & consider the act of filing for a divorce. If I can answer any more questions you might have email me directly ... I'd welcome the opportuniyt to help.
Good Luck,
Gary | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/22/2008 12:40:19 PM | | After 8 years the emotional bond is most likely broken. what i would want to know is why the legal bond has not been broken. what is gained by it. also i would be seriously concerned about what might happen if the situation kept on. what if she sells her stuff and/or home and moves in and then he dies? all his stuff goes to his kids or maybe even his ex since she is legally the closest living relative. then your friend is going to have to start over. personally i would have to tell her to think seriously about moving in in that situation | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/22/2008 6:45:27 PM | | My coworker lives with a man who isn't divorced. She's just now getting hers. Not sure why he isn't, I know him and his ex. No chance of a reconcilation. Money maybe? Both have been seperated for years, not one of us thinks they are doing anything wrong. Both their ex's have moved on also. I'm sure your friend is quite aware of what she's doing. Be happy that she's happy. | |
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| What would you say to her if you were her close friend?
Posted: 7/23/2008 3:41:59 AM | Normally, separated doesn't bother me. It means usually they are in the process of finalizing the divorce.
But for whatever reason, 8 years later he is still not divorced. That is a huge red flag. I could see maybe a year or so, as the court proceedings are gone through etc. But 8 years is just rediculous. | |
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