| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/24/2008 4:23:19 AM | It's kind of funny or more yet ironic. I'm a Portuguese American. In America this stuff is normal. In Portugal, if some guy did something like that in that situation around a lady, people would be shocked lol.
I remember showing my aunt a picture of myself when I was in a band, she saw my hair and let out a schreechy scream and dropped the photo album lol.
I know sometimes people here llaugh at themselves and make jokes about themselves sometimes if they are the nerdy geeky type that society deems to be such. It's a way of handling it. | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/24/2008 5:47:38 AM |
If you are an engineer, it is a good start.
If you are a smart engineer, you can be very successful.
If you are a smart engineer with a personality, you can take over the world!
Mish Man speaks much truth. Also, if you can learn geek culture you stand a much better chance of knowing how to manage them. | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/24/2008 4:17:51 PM | They are nice people but laugh at themselves are a lil bit too harsh and pointless.
Being a female engineer, I feel that it has been my pleausre to work with those intellectual gentlemen at work, Ilearn new things everyday from them! Overall they are VERY professional expect for that laughing at themselves part is a lil bit wierd. | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/24/2008 4:39:42 PM | Make an engineering joke out of it.
If he's fat, is he bending the space-time continuum?
If he's out of breath, should he buy a carnot cycle to work out on? Or does is his fuel cell a few kJ short of the capacity needed to get through the day?
If he's dumb, is there a sale on DDR RAM at the Future Shop? Or maybe the flow of thoughts in his brain has gone from laminar to turbulent?
The other posters are correct that North American culture is so new nobody knows the rules.
The Economist magazine has guides for doing business and business in etiquette for foreigners. They used to be in books, and maybe still are. I found these videos on their website by googling on "economist doing business in". They aren't as detailed as the books.
http://video.economist.com/?fr_chl=a841d118e68f7ad627812b42ce2cb5a134fc691e | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/24/2008 4:58:24 PM | | You could check your home country's version of amazon.com (online bookstore) for a book explaining US culture to people from where you are from. One office is going to be different from another, but it will probably help in the long run with adapting. | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/24/2008 5:10:09 PM | I am 6 foot 2 inches tall
I weigh 300 pounds
I have 200+ tattoos
I have a shaved and tattooed head
I have about half a pound of stainless steel hangin out my knoggin
I break about 5 chairs per year
When I bump into things smaller than a building, they move and usually break.
In thirty years of riding motorcycles around Los Angeles I have been hit by 21 cars. Most
of the cars received more damage than my body did.
Children tend to laugh at me. Adults tend to laugh with me. Animals just want to be fed an sometimes petted.
Some women find me incredibly attractive. Some women find me hideous. Some women couldn't care less either way. I can never tell which is which until they let me know by either flirting with me, running away screaming while reaching for the pepper spray or simply havin a conversation like they would with any other human.
I am a part time comedian. My life is where my material comes from. An boy I got plenty of it lemmie tell ya :) Most of my humor is directed at myself since I am the one person I know best and the one person I am guaranteed to never offend.
Self depreciating humor is a great way to express a humorous outlook without attacking someone else. It takes both a level of self questioning humility and a familiarity with ones own limitations and mistakes and a firmly rooted sense of inner security, self esteem and a touch of attention addiction. :)
If I tell a joke at my own expense in order to help someone laugh and feel good then it would be counter productive for me to be insulted by them doing so.
In the end, it's perfectly acceptable to laugh at a joke if it's funny. No matter how acceptable or rude it may be or who it's pointed at. After all, it's just a joke. Jokes are about how we deal with pain and life. They reflect our personal philosophy. Sometimes directly. Sometimes indirectly. Sometimes in complete reverse from our true opinions.
If someone tries to help you laugh an you feel like laughing. ... laugh! It's good for you :)
If the person doesn't like it, they haven't figured out what they like yet themselves so what you think shouldn't be high on their priority list yet ;)
Life is a joke but my face is the punchline.
Sincerely
Some really good lookin ugly guy ;) | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/24/2008 5:19:01 PM | There are a lot of dynamics with this particular situation.
I worked at an engineering firm (not as an engineer) it's more often than not a male dominated work environment.
The OP is a young, intelligent, very attractive female.
The non-work relating socializing, as I said before it a potential minefield.
She doesn't know how to respond and doesn't want to respond inappropriately. It's very understandable (being another female). I love football, and basically grew up a tomboy with 3 older brothers. So I knew how to socialize and fit in. I can talk guy talk to guys, still if they don't respect my boundaries and gender...I'll just say so.
I'm sure it's not easy for her, and dang I wish I had some amazing pearl of wisdom. I only know what works for me, she's not me. I'd turn it around and put the question back on them. But hey, I heckled a stand up comic!! 
Hiromi, I just hope that you'll figure it out, I think you're a great lady!  | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/24/2008 5:26:57 PM | OP; this is one faucet of the American sense of humor.
Many western nations have developed a sense of humor designed around self-ridicule. Here's the kicker, yes it's intended to be rude. But it's a self-esteem thing. Someone who has enough self-esteem to cast themselves in a laughable manner, poking fun at their own failings, is proving that they are not letting such things bother them. Laugh with them. Hell, it's fun! If you've got the self-esteem then you can figure out things you're not fond of about yourself, and turn it into humor. The idea is that if they can admit their failings in a laughing manner, they in turn show that nothing anyone else says about those qualities will hurt their feelings.
Or at least that's the idea. | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/24/2008 6:24:38 PM |
They are nice people but laugh at themselves are a lil bit too harsh and pointless.
A self deprecating sense of humor is generally considered a positive thing in USAian culture.
Nerds have learned to use it to hide the pain of social awkwardness. | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/25/2008 6:39:44 AM | I'd be careful indulging the tendency too much. In American culture, self-deprecation is one of the ways we signal that a barrier has been taken down. It is a sign someone is comfortable with you.
The reason I say to be careful is that American men have barely any concept of the point of signals and boundaries. So, if something looks like an opening for more than friendly work behavior, there's a pretty good chance they'll take.
Obviously I can't judge this guy individually. But, be aware that American men tend to run with an opening once they're given one. | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/25/2008 1:25:16 PM | I'm American and what you've noticed varies from region to region, but is more noticeable in midwesterners, particularly from Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana...it could be a small town trait, but I'm not from a small town so I don't really know. (Like all generalizations this one doesn't hold true for everyone, and it's just an personal observation...if your experience is different I'm sure Hiromi would love to hear your opinion too). What's really interesting is when a group of people with that characteristic get together and start doing it to each other and none of them see what's going on!
In my experience the individual doing it is not looking for a response, but is probably doing it subconciously. To be honest, you may make him nervous at some level, and this might be part of his way of dealing with that. He probably doesn't do this with his close friends. Whether you choose to respond to it by 1, 2, 3 or 4 will most likely not change the behavior as the fellow doesn't even know he's doing it.
The only way I've found to deal with it (and to be honest, I don't really even think about it or notice it much anymore) is to put up with it until I have established some level of friendship with the person. This may take a few weeks, months or a year, but then it's easier to reassure the person that how they look or act is not important to the work that's at hand. A simple "You always say that but no one here thinks it, now let's get back to doing XXX, which we all know you're good at" puts the whole issue to rest.
As far as the patting on the shoulder when you're in a conversation, this normally is a friendly gesture to the person being patted, and is done so that the person being touched does not think the individual would walk by without saying hello. Walking past a friend without saying anything can be considered a snub, and it's usually avoided (damn those small talk conventions, they waste an awful lot of time!). This isn't universal, as it depends on the level of friendship between two people and whether or not the individuals involved are comfortable touching (Americans don't always like physical contact in a work situation, from men or women). It isn't meant to say anything about you, the person not being touched (it's not a secret signal or anything), and it isn't meant to be disrespectful. | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/26/2008 8:21:32 AM | Engineers are usually pretty good at processing new information.
You have new information for them, that in your culture, only insecure, inferior men make fun of themselves. If you figure out a way to convey this information to your engineering co-workers (in a reasonably nice way), they might change their behavior.
So the next time "Fred" says: "Look at what I did, darn, I'm so stupid",
try something like "Hey Fred, I gotta tell you, where I'm from, only inferior guys make fun of themselves. I know your just kidding around, but it's such a cultural difference I have a real hard time dealing with it".
If I was "Fred", I might still make a snide reply at the time (because you caught me by surprise), but going forward, I'd remember that if I call myself stupid/fat/whatever in front of you, you'll think I'm a loser. | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/26/2008 8:39:50 AM | Face it. It's a defense mchanism. The guys throw themselves under the bus before the women can. A guy will say "I'm fat as pig". Women's comments on these types of subjects seem to almost surgical in their intent, burrowing into the heart of all male insecurity. It's easier to put yourself down, because anyone who piles on looks like a real jerk. I mean imagine if you told "fred" yeah, you're balding too."
This or these guy(s) probably have a little crush thing going on too. They point out their problems before you can in attempt to endear themselves to you. Perhaps your heart will grow fonder. "we covet what we see every day". Wow, that was creepy! | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/26/2008 9:29:42 AM | I can be a defense mechanism--after having endured the rejection of pain handed to him by women who can't deliver a polite "no" and instead choose to assassinate his character/ego--to take away any chance for rejection by eliminating himself by proxy from your selection of possible mates? I notice a lot of people do this.
Or, it could be a pathetic ruse to evoke compliments? Either way, it's manipulative behavior, when you think about it. | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/26/2008 12:56:24 PM | Self deprecation is the last avenue of humour left since it became unfashionable to be display comedic prejudice. At least I can talk about how fat/old/dumb/ugly I am without someone frowning at me. DON'T TAKE THIS AWAY FROM US...
BTW I am intelligent, sexy, fit and very sociable, not like these other guys around here. | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/26/2008 4:48:42 PM | Hiromi, you won't win with a strategy of trying to change American culture.
You don't have to make self-deprecating remarks about yourself. It is best to just smile or quietly laugh when they do. Make sure you show enough that they can tell you get the joke.
This is a very good point:
I'd be careful indulging the tendency too much. In American culture, self-deprecation is one of the ways we signal that a barrier has been taken down. It is a sign someone is comfortable with you.
The reason I say to be careful is that American men have barely any concept of the point of signals and boundaries. So, if something looks like an opening for more than friendly work behavior, there's a pretty good chance they'll take.
Obviously I can't judge this guy individually. But, be aware that American men tend to run with an opening once they're given one. | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/26/2008 6:38:28 PM |
For me it has been difficult to react when a American man starts to laugh at himself...such as laughing himself be physically unattractive, not smart...etc. I don't want to repeat what they have said since it is harsh.
It's this attitude which American men find so charming in Japanese women. | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/28/2008 11:16:06 AM | I make fun of myself frequently. Its a joke, don't take it seriously. I usually stop when someone thinks I am being serious. As with any joke, if you must explain it, its not funny anymore.
I would suggest just ignoring it if it bothers you. | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/28/2008 11:23:12 AM | | "I'm so hideous that when I walked by the Elephant Man's show at a Barnum and Bailey's carnival, I do believe I heard HIM audibly gasp in horror." | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/28/2008 4:24:15 PM |
They are nice people but laugh at themselves are a lil bit too harsh and pointless.
Being a female engineer, I feel that it has been my pleausre to work with those intellectual gentlemen at work, Ilearn new things everyday from them! Overall they are VERY professional expect for that laughing at themselves part is a lil bit wierd.
Hiromi, just to make it clear, I really believe that being competant at what you do and being nice is mutually exclusive to being socially adept. You can be a great guy and still not have strong social skills.
I think Bucsgirl gave the best solution to this. Let me help explain the scenario with an example; back in college I had a professor for Fluid Dynamics that put a problem up on the board and asked us, "Ok, solve it." The entire room of students spent the entire class trying to solve the problem, and we were getting flustered trying to figure it out. At the end of the class, the professor said, "So nobody figured out the solution, huh - good; I didn't give you enough information to solve it."
That basically is what is happening here. There could be a myriad of reasons why these guys are acting the way that they are. It could be trying to garner sympathy, but it could easily be that they like to kid with others. As others mentioned, it could be due to that with corporate policies the way they are, the only person they feel that they can target for their jokes is themselves, and it could be their awkward release with dealing with an attractive woman.
You do sound like a smart girl - and as mentioned earlier I'll think you'll figure it out. Just sit back and study the solution - as an engineer, you don't jump to a solution; you analyze the problems to rationally figure out the answer. Why treat your life with any less vigor?
Best of luck.
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/28/2008 7:14:44 PM | I suppose you have to assess the individual making the self deprecating remark as to whether it really is a joke that they think is funny or if it's an attempt to disguise self loathing. If it's really meant to be funny I usually go one of two directions. I may respond with a counter claim about how much worse I have it (and therefore I win!). Usually though I will find a way to agree with them. For instance, if someone were to bemoan how fat and stupid they were I might say to them, well, of course that's true but you forgot to add the part about having a small wiener. Hiromi said you had a micro-penis, remember? And then mirthful laughter would ensue.
Now if it's really about insecurity and self loathing, I don't know, maybe you can point out why you think they're being too hard on themselves. Of course if you pretty much agree with the statement you're kind of stuck.
If you're out of all other options just say "your momma" and walk away. It's a classic so even if it's confusing and makes no sense whatsoever, it will garner you a bit of old school respect. | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/28/2008 7:45:07 PM |
Hiromi, I've been an engineer in the US for over 20 years. Unfortunately, in the US, male engineers can be very intelligent but(and how do I say this with tact) sometimes they have very few social skills - like none, zippo, zilch, nada. When dealing with such individuals, you feel like driving a pen into your eye. (at least I do) And I defy any other engineer on this board to refute what I have stated above - all of us can list a handful of engineers that fall into this category. It is like American high schools bin all people with no social skills into one profession: engineering. I'm not saying all engineers have no personality; it just seems like all people with no personality are in engineering. I highly question whether some IT nerds don't beat out the engineers for the inability to talk to normal human beings. The worst ones are the self righteous IT people. To them, their computer is a religion, and if you can't write the programs and scripts necessary to run a small space station in at least 5 new languages, you are nobody. But then, none of today's new IT people seem to be able to program in C......Like Latin, I think all should be required to learn to code in C until the day that computers are obsolete.
Anywho, on the humor, I make fun of myself. It's more upsetting when someone gets offended at my humor, for example, feeling the need to correct me when I crack a fat joke about myself, than just laughing with me. Cellulite is funny. It moves like jello and makes children laugh. Now what could possibly be more important in this world than making children laugh??  | |
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| What do I do when American men are ...
Posted: 7/28/2008 7:57:25 PM | OP, You know you brought up something too common in our society. Somehow we’ve come to find self deprecating statements to be humorous. We laugh at stand-up comedians making fun of themselves and in that environment, indeed it is funny.
What we don’t realize is how damaging these statements can be to ourselves. I can see how other cultures are taught not to do this.
Self affirmations, even in jest, can have a significant impact on our life experience, both negative and positive.
As for how you deal with it, I think bucsgirl has a good solution for this:
I'd do it with another question...."why do you say/ask that?" Put it back on them
I’d make the person that said it confront their motives/affirmations by saying “why would you say that about yourself”
Ceij | |
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