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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 7/27/2008 12:13:41 PM |
but I have to say to some that harsh, judgemental words aren't helpful. Trying to label people, motives, or character isn't helpful. I appreciate the many posts and emails I've received thus far that have demonstrated compassion, understanding, empathy, and wisdom ~ this is what is helpful to me.
Ally,
With all due respect, you should be grateful for all this good advice and also paying attention to the "harsh and judgemental words" Some of it may be helpful even if you dont want to hear it. This is a lesson you should consider learning so you can pass it on to your daughter.
You told in a previous post that your daughter has basically ran all over the country living with whom ever would take her in and then when they tired of her nonsense, they sent her packing. ( I suppose all these people turned out to be horrible in her eyes as well) you only hear her side of the story.
She always returned to you because she knows she can manipulate you. She knows she can "push your buttons" and eventually she can wear you down. ( I wonder what she has said about you to these people,for reasons why she had to leave home to begin with)
This is where you have to say enough is enough! Your excuses for her have to stop! She is not going to stop until she knows you really mean it!
It would be a good idea for YOU to talk to a professional about this. After following this thread I also get the impression that you have to help yourself before you can help your daughter.
good luck and best wishes to you | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 7/27/2008 12:27:26 PM | Words that are hard to hear are not the same thing to me as harsh and judgemental. One can speak the truth, even the cold hard truth, without being harsh and judgemental ~ I guess it just depends on one's definition and interpretation of those words.
I would be in a therapist's office tomorrow if I had the money to spare; unfortunately I don't at the moment. For now I am using other means to help myself. Yes, to help myself.
You told in a previous post that your daughter has basically ran all over the country living with whom ever would take her in and then when they tired of her nonsense, they sent her packing. ( I suppose all these people turned out to be horrible in her eyes as well) you only hear her side of the story.
She always returned to you because she knows she can manipulate you. She knows she can "push your buttons" and eventually she can wear you down. ( I wonder what she has said about you to these people,for reasons why she had to leave home to begin with)
I think you're right. Those words are difficult for me to hear but ~ again ~ being direct and honest isn't the same to me as being harsh or judgemental as some posts in this thread have been. It's ok though because as with anything, I take what is helpful and leave the rest. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 7/27/2008 1:13:00 PM | ClassyfiedAlley, After reading your posting, I'm convinced that you either don't know the meaning of the words that you use... or you're a liar. ( Not in a judgemental way - but in the sense that you're not speaking/typing the truth)
We've all heard that the best way to teach something is to be it... in your case, you need to be responsible - for you and your actions. You are not being so.
You wouldn't feel frustrated or loss of hope if you truly had faith.
Faith in a higher power, faith in your daughter, faith in the job you did raising her. Your post reveals fear and trepidation about doing 'the right thing' - and false 'hope' that SHE will do the right thing. Think about it. Remember the story about Moses, you ain't getting into the promised land with them doubts of yours.
You've chosen to be part of the problem.
ps, I don't have grown children, but I do have doubting faithless parents.
And I can tell you that what she's going through is worse that what you are, trust me.
Lose your doubts and be strong for her - and demand that she be likewise.
Am I the only one reading these posts and thinking - the daughter is doing exactly what the mother is doing - she's growing up to be YOU. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 7/27/2008 2:29:15 PM | Hi Ally,l I'm glad you found the book, and that it is having meaning for you.
Isn't a blessing that it is on line and free?
Did you read what happened to her son? Take a look further into the story, it is a truly tragic and meaningful story.
As for the definition of co-dependent, Ally, it's not about addiction. Please let me give you a more appropriate definition. Most everyone in the world is co-dependent. It is a disease that has been learned from and passed onto generation after generation. Here is how Robert Burney defines it:
"Codependence is an emotional and behavioral defense system which was adopted by our egos in order to meet our need to survive as a child. We were traumatized as children - and the defenses we adapted to protect us caused us to traumatize ourselves as adults. We have experienced getting our hearts broken, our hopes and dreams shattered, again and again. [So] we abandon, betray and set ourselves up to feel rejected over and over again. (Even those "family hero" types who achieve external "success" and financial abundance have to keep running from distraction to distraction and finding someone to blame so that they can deny the hole they feel within themselves. Achieving some material success makes it much easier to maintain the illusion of ego control and stay in denial of one's wounded soul. Being rich and famous can be a huge block to true emotional intimacy.)
As long as we are reacting unconsciously to our childhood emotional wounds and intellectual programming, we keep repeating the patterns. We keep getting involved with unavailable people. We keep setting ourselves up to be abandoned, betrayed and rejected. We keep looking for love in all the wrong places, in all the wrong faces. Is it any wonder we have a fear of intimacy?
Because we had no tools for reprogramming our egos and healing our emotional wounds (culturally approved grieving, training and initiation rites, healthy role models, etc.), the effect is that as an adult we keep reacting to the programming of our childhood and do not get our needs met - our emotional, mental, Spiritual, or physical needs. Codependence allows us to survive physically but causes us to feel empty and dead inside. Codependence is a defense system that causes us to wound ourselves.
Fear of Intimacy - the wounded heart of codependency
" Fear of intimacy is at the heart of codependency. We have a fear of intimacy because we have a fear of abandonment, betrayal, and rejection. We have a these fears because we were wounded in early childhood - we experienced feeling emotionally abandoned, rejected, and betrayed by our parents because they were wounded. They did not have healthy relationship with self - they were codependents who abandoned and betrayed themselves - and their behavior caused us to feel unworthy and unlovable. "
"As children we were incapable of seeing ourselves as separate from our families - of knowing we had worth as individuals apart from our families. The reality we grew up in was the only reality that we knew. We thought our parents behavior reflected our worth - THE SAME WAY THAT OUR CODEPENDENT PARENTS THOUGHT OUR BEHAVIOR WAS A FACTOR IN WHETHER THEY HAD WORTH. "
"The simplest and most understandable way I have ever heard intimacy described is by breaking the word down: in to me see. That is what intimacy is about - allowing another person to see into us, sharing who we are with another person.
"Sharing who we are is a problem for codependents because at the core of our relationship with ourselves is the feeling that we are somehow defective, unlovable and unworthy - because of our childhood emotional trauma. Codependency is rooted in our ego programming from early childhood. That programming is a defense that the ego adapted to help us survive. It is based upon the feeling that we are shameful, that we are defective, unworthy, and unlovable. Our codependent defense system is an attempt to protect us from being rejected, betrayed, and abandoned because of our unworthy, shameful being.
We have a fear of intimacy because we were wounded, emotionally traumatized, in early childhood - felt rejected and abandoned - and then grew up in emotional dishonest societies that did not provide tools for healing, or healthy role models to teach us how to overcome that fear. Our wounding in early childhood caused us to feel that something was wrong with our being - toxic shame - and our societal and parental role models taught us to keep up appearances, to hide our shamefulness from others. "
"As long as we are reacting unconsciously to our childhood emotional wounds and intellectual programming, we keep repeating the patterns. We keep getting involved with unavailable people. We keep setting ourselves up to be abandoned, betrayed and rejected. We keep looking for love in all the wrong places, in all the wrong faces. Is it any wonder we have a fear of intimacy?"
Ally, I hope you can read all of this with an open mind and see how in some ways you might be reenforcing some toxic shame in your own daughter. That is why I continue to say helping your own self will be the greatest gift you can give her. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 7/27/2008 3:38:53 PM | Please ignore the negative judgemental responses. Bad things do happen to good people. I dont know your daughters history,but I do know what happened to mine. Its been ten long years of mental breakdowns,depression,suicidal behavior,drug abuse and sexual relationships with bad people. We have been to hell and back!! but my daughter has always known that I am here to love her and support her. Period. We tried councillors, medication etc.but nothing clicked for her.
We are not clear yet,but she is drugfree,medication free,and is councillor free. She has survived her parents breakup and finished highschool with honours. She was accepted to the three univerisitys that she applied to and starts this fall at the school of her choice. I know that we are not free yet of problems that haunt her.Sometimes I resent the drain she puts on me,and I am exhausted by it! But God I love her and am so proud of her accomplishments!!
I love what mrfray said in general,but mostly,about not controlling but guiding, and also about letting her know that she can talk to you about whatever,and keeping things open and talking regularly,not lecturing,but talking and sharing.
This has worked for me so far,much better than all the advice we got from the so-called experts. My daughter is nineteen years old and has experienced more than a person should, it wasnt my fault,or her fathers fault,or her fault,it just happened. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 7/27/2008 4:23:26 PM |
helping your own self will be the greatest gift you can give her.
Ameera, I don't know that a lot of what you posted in msg 79 fits for me, although some of it does. I agree with that last statement and am working on it. I now get that I need to shift my focus from her to me, so that is my first goal. I'm working on formulating other goals as well ~ for myself, that is.
Please ignore the negative judgemental responses.
I do Miss Dee, as I prefer to focus on the feedback I find inspiring, productive, and contributory (and there's been much offered in this thread by some evolved and wise folks).
Seems I have a lot of company in my struggles, which I find sad as well as comforting. It's nice to hear stories of success about these adult children. Thank you for sharing yours, Dee. Best of luck to you and your precious daughter ~ you both deserve a pat on the back. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 7/27/2008 4:37:04 PM | Ameera, I don't know that a lot of what you posted in msg 79 fits for me, although some of it does. I agree with that last statement and am working on it. I now get that I need to shift my focus from her to me, so that is my first goal. I'm working on formulating other goals as well ~ for myself, that is.
Ally, some of it might fit some of it might totally not be you. What's important is that you take care of you, I know you agree with this. If you care to look through Robert Burney's site, he has a wealth of information that can help anyone.
Once you've taken care of you, you can give to your daughter in a healthy productive way. But I truly believe most of what we give to others is by way of example, and in that way, it doesn't matter so much what we say as it does what we do.
Take some time for yourself, you deserve to be at peace and stress-free. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 7/27/2008 5:00:29 PM | I am this situation in reverse after my Mom died, Dad had no clue how to handle life? Sure he had held a job with the same company for 35 yrs, but had no concept of grocery shopping , laundry, paying the bills, even getting his own medications from the pharmacy.
My Mom had asked my husband and I to move in when she learned of her terminal cancer diagnosis as she knew she would need help. So I moved home and cared for her, the only way I could get her to stop working was to take over the mortgage which I did.
When she passed Dad had no clue. After a year and 1/2 of fighting with him- I did a course called THE LANDMARK FORUM. A month after I did I convinced my dad to do it as well. HUGE different
Until he passed away he still relied on my to pay the bills, but he did at least turn over a portion of his paycheck to do that with.
Its hard, keep pushing with her. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 7/27/2008 5:13:42 PM | OP and others I am so sorry you are all having trouble with your grown children.
But that is what they are: Grown. Once they reach the legal age within the state you reside, they are now legal adults and responsible for their OWN lives. They need to get out, obtain jobs, get their own housing, education/training etc. You cannot do it for them.
I am so grateful my parents told me that once out of the house I was on my own. I could come out to the farm all I wanted to visit, see the tribe (we have 3 dogs and 3 cats and Dad and I raise and train hunting dogs on the side), raid the fridge, and hopefully see them, but to live there - no way. They weren't running a Holiday Inn. - And to tell you the truth, I don't blame them for that at all. I have seen many of my peers leave the house, strike out on their own, then come back within six months for whatever reason only to stay too long. Then it happens all over again. - and again and again. The front door of the house becomes quite literally a revolving door.
My parents raised me to be independent, self sufficient, and a productive member of society. If I wanted something worthwhile I had to work for it myself.
I just don't understand why parents tolerate their children to do these types of things. Then turn around and reward their outrageous and illegal behavior by allowing them to come back home and freeload. You don't owe your grown kids housing, free food, or money - especially if they are NOT making any effort to either pay their own bills much less help out around the house. You can only help them so much. After that, they are on their own and need to help themselves.
I know I may sound harsh and judgemental, but I was never allowed to act that way towards my parents. Had I behaved that way, I can guarentee that I would have been disowned. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 7/27/2008 5:28:51 PM | ClassyfiedAlley,
Too much is being heaped onto this entire situation, obscuring what is important. I know, this is only my opinion here. Sure, I could use a common catch-phrase... like "Tough Love". I could even suggest something like an Intervention. Both are painful for all parties involved.
Is that what is at the core here? Avoidance of pain? Is there a large avoidance of guilt as well? Are you finding that you do not want to hold to the ultimatum that you have given your daughter, only to find that you have to live with the guilt of kicking her out... once again? To me, that is something that cannot be ignored. You have gone through this not once... but twice. She didn't learn the lesson the first time. So then, the question becomes...
How many times are you willing to help her learn the lesson before you go through with the responsibility YOU have set for yourself? I mean, the answer is obviously more than "once". But you have indeed set a tough responsibility on your own plate; Help her become self-reliant, or throw her to the streets. Were you just bluffing? I mean, the first time seemed like you were serious... but then turned out to be a bluff, since you took her in again.
She is currently learning that if she sticks to her guns, she gets what she wants, regardless of whether or not she has earned or deserves it. You have helped her learn this lesson, whether or not you like the fact.
So break it down... you have given her the conditions. She has violated them. Out she goes. Anything else defeats the entire purpose. If you aren't going to send her out on her own to learn what you offered to teach her in comfort, then get rid of the conditions. Either learn to accept her for who she is and work around her, or stand by your decision FOR BETTER OR WORSE. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 7/28/2008 7:26:58 AM |
I take what is helpful and leave the rest
Ally!
You do the same with your daughter!!!
Deep down you know how she is manipulating you, You know it isnt right. You know ALL THE ANSWERS!!.. yet you still look at her as this little girl you brought into this world and vowed to protect forever! You keep seeing her innocence as a child and how sweet she used to be, and your ignoring all the bad things!
You take what is helpful to you, and leave all the rest!!
You cant do this to yourself anymore! Its not healthy for you or your daughter!
These people here have shared some very inspirational stories with you and some have offered you some great advice , and yet you seem to have an excuse for everything anyone mentioned
You make the excuse that you have no money for therapy, Yet how much cash are you forking out to your daughter everytime she claims she needs it?
There are alot of resources that you can look into that cost little or no money.
Time to let your little girl grow up. You have done your part raising her. Time for her to take control of her own life. You have to step back and let her do it.
Let me ask you one last thing Ally,
If you came on this thread and you read this same story written by someone else, What kind of advice or comments would you give to them? | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 7/28/2008 9:33:27 AM | I see this thread just goes on and on with people telling you ally that you are an enabler .... YES you are enabling HER to continue to go from person to person including yourself and not be a responsible adult . and you know why ??? because she DONT have to . Like I have said in a previous post I married someone like your daughter it was not till his late 30's and early 40's that he finally grew up and kept a job and stayed in one place to live . ANd you know why ?? because every screw up he ever did his MOM and dad paid for his way , rather it was when a woman left him and left him to get a job and pay the bills and he would sit in a home with no utilities for months , and they would get upset and turn everything on for him to bringing him food .. To he would find a woman who would do those things fo r him till they too got tired of it . Then he would go back to his momma ..
Funnny thing is just like YOU they judged the other person , they hated me for leaving their son where mean to me rude to me any chance they got .Never really even attempted to get to know their grandchild because i was so horrible for leaving their son . Years later after they stopped enabling him i get an im sorry for the things we done ..
Its simple ally YOU made some rules and told her she'd be out if she didnt do those things , by not sticking to your rules you are showing her she cand o whatever and your mouthing your rules means nothing ..
Ally my kid is 19 and going to college , she still follows my rules , she gets her own money which she contributes to the household since shes an adult now . And shes got a handful herself considering shes had a heart transplant . She still stays a productive adult which makes me very proud of her , dont think though that ive not had to lay down some rules and laws in the house for her to follow we have hit heads a time or two but because i stuck to it she realizes i meant it and we get along smoothly now . | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 7/28/2008 6:12:22 PM |
Is that what is at the core here? Avoidance of pain? Is there a large avoidance of guilt as well? Are you finding that you do not want to hold to the ultimatum that you have given your daughter, only to find that you have to live with the guilt of kicking her out... once again?
I don't think so, no. What's painful is seeing this cycle repeat itself. As for guilt, I think it's the contrary. That is to say, I think my behavior is driven by guilt (among other things). I didn't feel guilty when I asked her to move out the last time. Ok, maybe a little. But not enough to allow her to continue taking advantage of me. I will do it again if things reach that point and she knows that. Only I've decided that this time I will tell her that if/when she moves out, she can't come back. I think she's done impulsive things in the past knowing she had me to fall back on. I will be removing that safety net this time around.
the first time seemed like you were serious... but then turned out to be a bluff, since you took her in again.
I was serious the first time and I don't think it's a matter of it being a bluff. I didn't tell her she couldn't come back because I didn't recognize what was happening in the bigger picture ~ now I do, which is why I started this thread and why I'm striving to understand what's really behind the dynamics here. I am a person who is always working on being/becoming the best I can be. I may be a little slow to see things sometimes but once I do, I address them. Give me a little credit here, eh?
she is currently learning that if she sticks to her guns, she gets what she wants, regardless of whether or not she has earned or deserves it. You have helped her learn this lesson, whether or not you like the fact.
I get that. No, I don't like it but that doesn't really matter now. What matters is what I do from this point forward, so that's what I choose to focus on.
If you came on this thread and you read this same story written by someone else, What kind of advice or comments would you give to them?
I don't think I would be able to offer any advice to such a person, as I haven't found what works yet. I'm in the process of figuring that out now. It seems to me, however, that many seem to think dealing with this should (a judgement word, by the way) be an event vs. a process. As my understanding continues to expand, I see it will indeed be a process. I wish it were as simple as I first thought it could be, but it is not. In any case, I'm on the right path now and that's what matters. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 7/28/2008 9:18:21 PM | I am just wondering... have you tried asking your daughter what she would do if she were in your position? (Make your position very clear to her -- how you love your daughter but feel that she's taking advantage etc...)
I feel bad that you've been so bashed for trying to be supportive in the way that you believed best. None of us can do more than this and whilst there are a lot of heart warming "kicking me out was the best thing my mom ever did for me" stories, we're all aware that there are many stories that do not end so happily and where the parents are left thinking "if only I hadn't...".
In the end, I don't think you need to drive yourself crazy over this. Do what you believe to be most loving and supportive -- you won't get it 100% right or 100% wrong because in the grand scheme of things your daughter is an adult and your impact on her is nowhere near the 100% mark -- whatever you do, whether you try to smother her, try to support her, try to use 'tough love'... what she does is down to her and you really need to stop holding yourself so responsible for that, as if she is a part of you.
I think it is worth underlining too that she may be happy being 'irresponsible'. I'm sure my grandfather always saw my uncle as being irresponsible and never forgave him for not taking the apprenticeship he'd got lined up and always saw him as a failure, despite the fact that my uncle was perfectly happy and respected by many (just not his father). If your daughter's happy, parhaps you just need to stop thinking there's a problem -- and don't let her use you as a doormat, because that is never nice behaviour and you don't want to encourage that kind of thing from anyone.
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/14/2008 8:11:54 PM | Same chapter, new page...
In recent weeks my daughter has been spending more and more time away from my apartment. She met a guy and when she's not working, she's at his place ~ often for three or four days at a time. This would usually be fine with me, only she doesn't seem to want to be bothered with letting me know when she's not going to be home for days on end. She just doesn't come home. No call, no text, no note, nothing. She takes for granted that I will feed her cats, whom she would never leave for days at a time if she lived alone.
After repeatedly requesting that she show me enough courtesy to let me know when she's not going to be here and when I can expect her back, last week when she walked in the door after a days long absence, picked up something and walked right back out without a single word, I'd had enough. I sent her the following text:
I think it's time for you to move out. This staying gone for days at a time then staying here when you have to work is bullsh**. I have done nothing but try to help you, but you are now on your own. And let me be very clear about one thing ~ this time when you move out, you don't get to come back. Visit, yes. Live, no. And I'm not paying for your storage anymore. Time for you to grow up and stop being a taker. When you move out, leave my key under the mat.
This happened after another incident last weekend; she'd borrowed my car to go to the store for the cat food I'd asked her to buy for two weeks. Next morning when I left for work I noticed the electronic key to open the security gate to the apartment complex was gone. I asked her where it was, she said, "It's in your purse." It wasn't. I told her she needed to go to the manager's office Monday morning and get a replacement. It didn't happen (she's been gone the entire week).
Today I came home from work to find a nasty note from her. She came back because she had to work tonight. Here are the most relevant excerpts:
I'm sick and f***ing tired of you always trying to guilt trip me...it doesn't make any sense why me being gone for a few days then only here when I work would trigger this out of nowhere outburst...I thought you'd actually prefer me being gone and out of your hair...you have the whole house to yourself so stop bi***ing...You KNOW I have nowhere else to go right now because I'm saving all my money to buy my car so I can go to school and THEN leave. So STOP BARKING EMPTY BULLSH** THREATS AT ME...whatever you're pissed about stop taking it out on me...We had a verbal agreement that I'm going to be here for awhile...at least a year if that...trust me, if I had somewhere else to go, I'd most likely be there...so let's just try to make the best out of a crap situation...I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing...
There's more, but that's the gist of it. My knee jerk reaction was to write a letter back and give her the what for, how to, and rip her up one side and down the other. I didn't act on that, but am now completely confused about what to do next as this is a situation I have never been in before. I don't know why I'm surprised that she'd push this to the point of taking it into the legal system, but I am.
Input will be seriously appreciated. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/14/2008 8:23:06 PM |
Input will be seriously appreciated
Well....I don't know how helpful I will be, considering I don't have any children of my own, least of all grown children obviously, and my own parents and I are best of friends, but here goes....
All I can say is, IF it was me acting that way, and my mom doing me as huge a favour as you are doing for your daughter? She wouldn't bother leaving me any more notes, or even trying the legal system at that point. She'd have changed the locks on my unappreciative princess a$$ by that point, and all my stuff would be lying on the front lawn the next time I returned.
It kind of sounds to me like your daughter is playing turnaround with you though...YOU have nothing to feel guilty about, so she definitely shouldn't be trying to shift the blame to you for apparently "guilt-tripping her". You don't technically have a "verbal agreement" that I can see, at least not a legally binding one....YOU are doing HER a favour!
She isn't trying....I hate to say it, but that's the way I see it. This must be a very difficult situation for you, but I guess the best advice I can offer? (Again, possibly way off-base here, but still...) I would do the tough-love thing, and stop believing her bullpoop about needing to buy a car to find a job, etcetc...and carry through with what you've just told her.
"Empty bullshyte threats"....gak...my mom probably would have wiped the floor with me for talking to her like that.
Best of luck, Classified Ally. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/14/2008 8:48:39 PM | Hi Ally... You can now officially scratch my earlier contribution to this thread because lil miss wut's-er-name has thrown down the proverbial "gauntlet". If one reads between the lines of her message to you, it's easy to see that all your efforts to help her have fallen on a thankless heart. That isn't yours my friend. It belongs solely and completely to this young lady. If my daughter wrote... "STOP BARKING EMPTY BULLSHIT THREATS AT ME", it would tell me one thing... That she doesn't think anything I say has substance or merit. I don't need to tell you that her message is entirely disrespectful but once again, this is NOT about you. It's about the fact that she KNOWS she can act up and get away with it. You've given her an infinite number of chances to grab the reins to her own life that you have offered her and yet, she's overtly refused to take them. She neither appreciates nor respects your efforts to help her and it matters nothing to her that you are sacrificing your own peace of mind. You KNOW that she doesn't need a car to get to school and having one doesn't make her more employable. What right does a 24 year old woman have to live off of her mom's earnings while saving her own? If she's old enough and has time enough to be off with some guy for days at a time, she's old enough and has time enough to get a freakin' job or even, a 2nd job.
This, my friend, is where I would change the locks and advise the caretakers/managers that she is no longer a welcome tenant there. I would put the rest of her belongings in her storage container and then write to tell her where they are and that she is not welcome until she cleans up her act and her audacious attitude.
The minute she responded so disrespectfully, she blew away every ounce of obligation you might feel you have to an adult daughter. I would also attempt to find some good homes for her cats if you don't wish to adopt them.
I would also take some extra steps regarding my own security if I were you. Such magical thinking about her absolute right to be there living off of you often causes things like damages to cars and so on. Vary your habits, park elsewhere and ask what can be done to change that access.
It's time Ally... and I know it hurts... I'm sorry but it's obvious that if you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting. You know where I am if you want to talk... | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/14/2008 8:55:18 PM | The stability that you can provide at this time goes like this:
Say what you mean.
Mean what you say.
Do what you said you would do.
(Barbara Colorosso) | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/14/2008 9:03:36 PM | Silkie, her storage space is in Texas. I did think about changing the locks (it was actually the first thought I had), but she has proven in previous years that she's not above breaking into someone's home when she thinks she's entitled to have access.
I think I might need to consult an attorney (like I can afford that), as I think in California if you've allowed someone to stay with you for 30 days, they are considered a resident and you cannot just put them out on the street. I would have to legally evict her.
We did have a verbal agreement, but that agreement also included her paying some of the utilities, which she hasn't done. She hasn't done anything beyond what I have specifically requested and often times, I have to ask her repeatedly.
She can't get to my car when it's in the garage, but until I replace my gate key I have to park on the street if I get home after 6:00 pm. I haven't replaced it because SHE needs to do it (that clearly isn't going to happen though).
She commented in her letter that she's looking for a second job but reality is, I don't care. I just don't care. I want her out. I cannot believe that I regret letting her stay with me and trying to help her. She's just getting very ugly. I almost feel like I'm dealing with an angry ex. This is ludicrous.
Edit: Thanks Gee...I will do that. A colleague of mine is pursuing his paralegal credential, maybe I'll ask him. ::sigh::
Another Edit:
Say the word and I will contact my good friend...
Yes please. And thank you Silkie, I appreciate it. I really do. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/14/2008 9:06:26 PM | Here in Washington State you can get a half hour of free consultation from attorneys. Look around your area, make some calls, and find out what your rights are.
Peace. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/14/2008 9:10:46 PM |
My grown daughter's life fell apart and she asked to move back home
Ally, all I can offer here is to say you look no way near old enough to have a grown daughter yet.
As for the rest of your post, hang in there and I'll hope for the best for you and your daughter. My brother had similar issues and my parents were always at war over how to handle it.
My mother felt he needed to learn to take responsibility and fend for himself so she cut him off after numerous attemtps to help him with little effort on his part.
My father was afraid to come down hard on my brother or ever cut him off. What started about 18 yrs ago is my father's problem to this day. He fully supports my now 38 yr old brother who despite an extremely high IQ, great physical shape, etc has never held a steady job in his life. He was never forced out of the nest and has yet to take any responsibility for his own life. My father for the most part has done all of this out of a sense of guilt from not being there much for my brother during his childhood. My brother has milked this to death, is manipulative and knows exactly how to play my father and avoid all responsibility himself.
The downside? My brother hasn't spoken to my mother in about 15 yrs since she refuses to support a grown man capable of supporting himself and also fears what will become of him once my father passes away at some point and eventually, of course she herself will also. This "grown" man will have no idea how to support himself or deal with his own life.
Honestly, we all hit rough patches in our lives and our family being there to help us through can make all the difference. However, if the individual themselves isn't putting any effort in and seems to be manipulative, I would be extremely cautious as you may very well just end up being a co-dependent to a person with responsibility and work issues. My brother also had the sense of entitlement and to this day, still does...
I wish you much luck Ally. Tho none of my children are yet old enough for any of this, seeing it with so many other familes and my own brother has shown me how hard it is for the families. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/14/2008 9:27:47 PM |
Silkie, her storage space is in Texas. I did think about changing the locks (it was actually the first thought I had), but she has proven in previous years that she's not above breaking into someone's home when she thinks she's entitled to have access.
Okay... time to rent her another one and send her the keys along with the bill...
You will also need to make it clear that if she attempts to break in, you will have no hesitation other than to report her to the police and have her charged. If you have ANY reason to fear her Ally, you need to go to the police and discuss all of this with them. You may actually need to get a restraining order in place until this situation has been allowed to cool down. And I wouldn't drag my heels about doing it...
I think I might need to consult an attorney (like I can afford that), as I think in California if you've allowed someone to stay with you for 30 days, they are considered a resident and you cannot just put them out on the street. I would have to legally evict her.
Ally.. I wish I knew the law in California but I do know someone who does and he is a member of POF. I would be happy to connect you with his permission.
I don't think that any law would have you exposing yourself or your personal property to damage or harm. If she is not on your lease or rental agreement, then I would say she would have to make a case for your putting her out. You would need to make it clear that if she forces your hand, you will speak of her previous history where she's been known to damage things and that can't go well for her in court.
Ally... you can't live in fear or be scared to exercise your rights even if this is your daughter. She is your ADULT daughter and has absolutely no right to be in your home unless you have specifically invited her in and NOT asked her to leave. If it were me, I'd still put her out and take my chances with the judge.
In most commonwealth countries, agreements concerning land have to be in writing to be valid. My lawyer friend is in LA and I will ask him if he will offer you some guidance if you wish...
As I see it, you are in danger having her there and you have no duty to expose yourself to this... NONE.
Say the word and I will contact my good friend... | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/14/2008 9:27:59 PM | I'm uncomfortable with words like "enabler" and "co-dependent" because everyone thinks they know what they mean and they are so ill-defined. Instead I'd like to talk a little behavior therapy. My sister has a younger daughter who has made and continues to make very dubious choices in life, at 33. My sister repeatedly threatened to stop bailing her out of her mistakes, but then continued to do so, if only occasionally.
Intermittent reinforcement is the most resistant circumstance to extinction of a behavior, because the person learns that if the desired reward isn't forthcoming, they should just wait, it will be. Ally, my concern is that you will vacillate on this and actually, by being inconsistent in your stance, make it harder for your daughter to become responsible and grow up.
You didn't say how old she is in the first page of this thread, and I haven't read all subsequent posts. If by grown child you mean 18 or 20, the situation is not nearly so well established as if you mean 30 or up.
Ask yourself if you are serving some of your own emotional needs by having her move back in with you. She might be better off with a roommate and you might be better off with a pet - or a boyfriend. You can provide emotional support and to a lesser extent, guidance, if she lives independent of you but you make a point to have regular contact with her. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/14/2008 9:40:00 PM | Ally, I empathise with your dilema. I also am discouraged that this "phase" hasn't passed and she's almost 24. My college-age daughter (22) is now very educated. She has seen the diversity of students. Her peers are dubbed "cake eaters" (have their cake and eat it too)--thus, she has established her sense of "entitlement". With the rising gas prices, I bought her a new bike for getting around town--to which, she was above and didn't want. Then on a students summer job, she took out a loan for a 2006 car, which she can't possibly afford once school starts in a few weeks. She is acting immaturely by not speaking to me at this point for trying to rationalize her spending--(before this she took out a loan from her older brother for $2000--) I have asked her twice about counseling, which she won't go, and doesn't acknowlege she has any problems (she is financially stressed, which of course, she is blaming her parents).
Welder, thanks for letting us know that the life lessons do get learned! Alley my heart breaks with yours. I understand how you want to help, but you just keep getting taken advantage of your "giving"--God bless and let us know how it's going! | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/14/2008 9:42:44 PM | Oh wow, my apologies for not reading your last post before replying Ally.
I've read enough of your posts at this point I think to have a good handle on what you would tell someone else under these circumstances and I think you know what you need to do.
I can honestly say, my mother and I really had some run ins over the past 20 yrs as she and I have never seen eye to eye on a lot of things but I would never dare to speak to my mother nor treat her as you are currently being treated.
In a way, for her to say "Stop Barking Empty..." it almost sounds like she's testing you to see how far she can go and *maybe* actually looking for a kick in the ass as deep down she may very well know she needs it.
Regardless, I'd say she's rather out of control at this point and needs you to put your foot down.
Regarding the legal aspects, my guess is she's just blowing smoke or maybe the boyfriend has given her some ideas on this. I guess it would depend on laws where you live but if she's over a certain age and there's no written agreement, I don't see how she would have a leg to stand on legally. | |
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