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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/20/2008 9:38:30 AM | Sorry, Ally but I've got to, I really do . . . Manwife, I thought so before but now I'm convinced.
You strike me as the type of person who really loves to hear herself talk and doesn't care much if anyone is listening.
I bet you can have a conversation all by yourself, can't you?
That's why you thought the OP on this thread was a man!
You don't really take into account WHO you are talking to, what their situation is or whether what you're saying is relevant to them, do you?
There is such a thing as knowing your audience. Like if you had bothered to ask, you'd know that I am a Christian and so I already know that Jesus sacrificed his life for us -- but the Bible is replete with advice on responsibility and taking care of yourself.
Remember, the bible says, "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife." The intention is to LEAVE your parents and go on and have your own life.
But all of this is neither here nor there.
Not everyone who is reading this thread are Christians, so how do you know what you're saying will speak to them?
Like I said, KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE.
People in general do not like to be preached to. You come off like a know-it-all, who is very closed minded -- who has her mind made up and really is getting off on reading her own voice.
Now that's my humble opinion and I'm sticking to it. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/20/2008 10:43:23 AM |
ou strike me as the type of person who really loves to hear herself talk and doesn't care much if anyone is listening.
Well, she IS a pastor LOL. Preaching to the wrong choir methinks.  | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/20/2008 7:53:29 PM | have you tried just asking yourself "what would my Father have done ?"
No, I can't say that I have. My father has been out of my life since I was two years old and I never saw him again. I don't know what he would have done, nor do I care.
twenty five years ago kids did not get placed in every dance class, every hockey or soccer team, Mom and Dad did not drive them all weekend and allmost every single night to this event or that event
Since my kids are 23 and 25, I can attest to this; my girls did not have that kind of childhood. I did what I could for them, which was much more than I had growing up but far less than many other kids. They still both grew up with a sense of entitlement, which I take 100% responsibility for. It is what it is and I can't change it. All I can do is change what I do now.
I would drive the little Missy down to the nearest Armed Forces Recruting Station and suggest to her that if she enlists they will take care of her....give her three squares a day . a bed to sleep in and guide her around and help her with all of lifes hard decisions...and provide her a pay check to boot....would do her some good....fact is she is spoiled brat that should have been paddled years ago...
As stated earlier in this thread, "little Missy" has already been down that path.
And I would have found your words credible and maybe even valuable if you weren't so condescending and self-righteous. As it is, they've already been flushed down the virtual toilet. But thanks for sharing. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/20/2008 8:44:18 PM | Whew... Manwife... I'm sure your heart's in the right place but I can't begin to count the thinking errors in your dissertation(s)... So.. I won't... I'll just say that I disagree with you and leave it at that...
Ally.. You can come out from under the table now... | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/21/2008 6:07:40 AM | Is it just me, or are men quicker at putting the poor kiddies out on their asses. lol
When I was a kid, mom was soft and sweet, dad was tough and harsh. Unless I *really screwed the pooch. Then they flipped roles! Dad was the one going "OK everyone calm down. It's not that bad.", and mom was "Let me at him.... I'm gonna kill the little prick!" Confused the heck out of me and kept me way off balance. Stopped me from taking her car for a joy ride at 2am and wrecking it though. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/21/2008 8:51:02 AM |
Is it just me, or are men quicker at putting the poor kiddies out on their asses. lol
When I was a kid, mom was soft and sweet, dad was tough and harsh. Unless I *really screwed the pooch. Then they flipped roles! Dad was the one going "OK everyone calm down. It's not that bad.", and mom was "Let me at him.... I'm gonna kill the little prick!" Confused the heck out of me and kept me way off balance. Stopped me from taking her car for a joy ride at 2am and wrecking it though.
I think by nature men are just viewed more as an authority figure.
All of my children's father has to do is say, Hey, with the deep, commanding voice and the children run around like little army ants trying to do what he says. I could have been yelling and screaming about the same thing.
But on the other hand, they take me more seriously. They have done things with him and to him that they wouldn't dare try to get away with me. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/21/2008 7:59:26 PM | Men are just more fun. Women are just more anal. Really!
Men understand boundaries to the enth degree. Women make boundaries which are unenforcable and repressive. Mom's are more concerned with appearances while Dads are very much concerned with affectiveness of teaching toward the growth of the whole person (meaning the rounded child as an adult). Mom and Dad make a great balance. Please read "A Father and Child Reunion" by PH.D. Warren Farrell.
...Amazing how we as parents ignore what is in the best interest of our Children. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/21/2008 8:03:09 PM | ...Amazing how we as parents ignore what is in the best interest of our Children.
What is in the best interest of my "child" is for her to get the Hell out of my house. 
You don't even know yourself, sweet heart.
pc, I don't think you're the least bit qualified to assess the extent to which I do or don't know myself. And I'm not your sweetheart. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/21/2008 8:04:10 PM | I have to concurr. You don't even know yourself, sweet heart.
Words of a friend cut deep but are healing. Pay attention for the sake of your Children or you may very well keep them in a self absorbed state of mind. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/21/2008 9:52:31 PM |
Men are just more fun. Women are just more anal. Really!
Men understand boundaries to the enth degree. Women make boundaries which are unenforcable and repressive. Mom's are more concerned with appearances while Dads are very much concerned with affectiveness of teaching toward the growth of the whole person
Hey PC, I read your profile and you're opinion is biased. Sounds like you had either a rough divorce or dealt with a really insensitive woman who tried to alienate you from your children -- okay, I'm reaching here, but that's my first impression.
ALL women are NOT anal -- don't generalize. I'm nothing like you've described and I'm sure many other women on this site aren't either. Point of fact, I don't give two $h!ts about appearances. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/22/2008 6:53:15 AM | Point of fact, I don't give two $h!ts about appearances.
Ameerra, don't you know that's only because you don't know yourself? 
It's feeling a lot like my daughter doesn't even live here anymore. She left last Saturday after spending the entire morning and first part of the afternoon holed up in her room. She left without a single word. Then she pops in Wednesday evening while I'm in the shower (removing the chain lock from my front door after she opened it with her key and couldn't get in). I get out of the shower to find her holding one of her cats (who miss her and are being completely neglected, by the way). I tell her she needs to take her cats with her to wherever she's staying and leave my key or she will soon find her things in a box on the porch. She left without a word and without her cats. By the way, in the letter she left she said she'd feed her cats and not ask me for a (insert expletive) thing. Yeah right.
I am thisclose to changing the locks, but I'm torn about the cats. I will not take them to the Humane Society. I have not told her I'd do this and I won't do it; that is not an option. But once she's out, I want her out with no reason to come back here.
I'm still pondering options and am undecided on what exactly I will do. But I know I'm tired of this mess and I want it done. I think her staying away so much has taken a little bit of the pressure off, but I still want her officially out of here. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/22/2008 8:13:03 AM |
Ameerra, don't you know that's only because you don't know yourself?
Yeah, don't you love that! Always from people who are ready to tell you (without knowing you at all) who you are!!!
I think, looking at your daughter's behavior from an abusive perspective -- (I'm not saying she's abusive but she is trying to manipulate and control the situation to her benefit and to your detriment, which abusers do) she is employing two tactics that abusers do very well.
They are the:
(1) Act like nothing is wrong tactic.
That's when someone does something outrageous and then comes in and acts like nothing is wrong. It's designed to disarm you and make you feel off center. You don't know where you stand anymore because of the pink elephant in the room that isn't being addressed. To slip the chain off and be sitting in YOUR livingroom, after not having addressed what you've requested of her, not having taken her cats, living animals that she's responsible for, disappearing and leaving you a nasty message -- well if that isn't disarming behavior I don't know what is.
(2) Punishing you and making you the bad guy.
When a person acts passive like that, withdrawing, not speaking to you, attacking you in a round about way, no matter how you react you are the bad guy. If you put her cats in a shelter r or give them away, you're wrong. If you put her stuff on the street, you're wrong. If you change the locks, you're wrong. That's because you're being forced to act while the other person remains irresponsible.
How I remedy this is I don't tell the person what I'm going to do, I just do it.
Your daughter knows she has cats and that she hasn't fed them and left them in your care. Your daughter also knows how you feel, you've already told her.
No need for further conversation, now is the time for action.
Change the locks (if that's what you want to do) no warning.
Put the cats in a shelter, give them away -- you've already told her your position, she should have stepped up to the plate. I wouldn't be above TELLING her I gave them away even when I didn't -- you know that I let someone watch them for a while, until she was on her feet.
No more conversations. I think maybe deep inside you're still holding onto the hope that she'll come around and at least leave on good terms -- and what mother wouldn't???
This must be heartbreaking for you!!!
I think you'll have better results though acting w/o speaking. You'll feel assertive and whole and guess what, she'll feel off center and out of the loop.
What you and your daughter are going through is a power struggle!!! | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/22/2008 6:50:52 PM | Ameerra, I truly agree with you that the time for conversation is over and it's time for action. Since I've already spoken with my landlord and he's agreed to change the locks for me, I'm really ready to do that (emotionally). The only thing stopping me is these cats; I will not put them in a shelter, yet I don't want to take care of them. I love them, they're great kitties, but they are hers. I'm not avoiding giving them away for her benefit, but for theirs. They are attached to her and it wouldn't be fair to them. If she would just take them, I'd have no problem locking her things up in my garage storage locker and changing the locks on the doors. I don't even want to rent a storage space, as I am not putting out one more cent on her! Not one. I haven't said a word to her about changing the locks, I just wanted to give her the opportunity to take the cats. Since she didn't, I'm struggling with deciding what to do about that. I don't know anyone who could take care of them. Something will come to me, it always does...
It is sad for me, but I've resigned myself to the reality that we are not going to end this situation on good terms. I fully anticipate not having her in my life for a good number of years, as she's made it clear that she's angry, she doesn't trust me, and she's shown pretty blatantly that she has no respect for me. Every time I think of that letter I get really pissed at her lack of respect, as I've always strived to treat her with respect. She's under the impression that my asking her to move out (and everything else related to this conflict) stems from my desire to have a better relationship with her and her slow response to that. She couldn't be more mistaken...as I gave up on the relationship some time ago. Now I just want her out and right now I couldn't care less if we have a relationship. I'm so angry and so tired of allowing myself to be taken advantage of that I am over it.
Stick a fork in me cuz I'm done. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/22/2008 7:41:02 PM | SHE ASKED to move back in after she messed up. You gave her 2 intelligent conditions as Boundaries. She knows the rules but pushes you anyway because she knows she can get away with it because you don't ENFORCE your conditions. That's not what she needs.
I raised 2 children as a single parent. My daughter was an honours student & a nerd thank goodness. My son was like raising 5. Went to jail, did drugs, sold drugs, one of his many girlfriends got pregnant & she was useless. He wanted to travel the world. I think he was hinting that I might take the baby. I always said we all make choices and remember when doing so that we live with the choices we make! He took care of the girls expenses etc while pregnant. A few mos. later, she was pregnant again. I looked at him eyeball to eyeball & said, can you affort the time & money for a third? She had another healthy baby & within a yr was doing heavy drugs which I believe she had done before. He went from riding his motocycle to diapering 2 little girls. I did week-ends. They are fed very well, his home is exceptionall healthy re exercise, very gd books, no TV for 4 yrs etc. special schooling....
She knows you are a pushover. She loves you bt doesnt respect your style. She is lazy like many others, but why should you carry her around at this point?
I would get her full attn, repeat the arrangemt that yes she cud move in if 1.full time job that she doesnt get fired from. 2)Counselling . free is great, if she wants the other one She can pay for it. If she WON'T do those two things she doesnt really want to change anything and will just be a burden on you which she doesnt care, but YOU are not willing to accect! | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/22/2008 8:08:20 PM | It is sad for me, but I've resigned myself to the reality that we are not going to end this situation on good terms. I fully anticipate not having her in my life for a good number of years, as she's made it clear that she's angry, she doesn't trust me, and she's shown pretty blatantly that she has no respect for me. Every time I think of that letter I get really pissed at her lack of respect, as I've always strived to treat her with respect.
Ally, remember when your kids were around two?
Maybe even this daughter we're talking about did this. They'd be doing something wrong, like playing with your expensive lotion or pouring milk on the carpet. I caught my kids who were only 15 months apart covered from head to toe with talcum powder.
Know how I knew? They kept coming in the room and just peeking their head in. They did it like three or four times before I said, "What in the world are you guys doing out there."
Sure enough, I went into the room and almost lost it -- almost. Until I looked at their little faces. There was a small expectant smile on their face, a little gleam in their eyes. They knew exactly what they were doing, the little devils -- and they wanted me to stop them, you know to show them who's boss. They were testing their boundaries and trying to see what they could get away with.
Although they weren't quite clear about their motives as they got older, I've always kept this in mind. No matter how much I discipline my daughter, no matter how mouthy she gets and how she SCREAMS it is soooooooo unfair, guess what? She WANTS me to discipline her. I overheard her talking to her friend and saying, "Oh, no -- I couldn't do that with MY mother; she'd kill me."
Now this is grade A bullshit, as she tries me all day long -- but each time, I guess I'm passing her little test. A world without boundaries for a child is a scary, scary place.
You'd be surprised at how your daughter will treat you once you pull this off. I have a good feeling that you and her are going to be just fine. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/22/2008 8:30:42 PM |
You'd be surprised at how your daughter will treat you once you pull this off.
Thank you Babes, that is a really nice thought and I'm going to pull it out if my resolve feels like it's weakening. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/22/2008 9:10:52 PM | | Hmmm,,the original post was 7/24 it is now a month later with seven pages of comments. Daughter is still entitled. From a practical standpoint I cannot see why feeding and changing litterboxes for two cats (until a new home could be found however long that may take) would be so challenging and frustrating to forestall immediate action on ending the entitlement. The OP has stated she just wants the daughter OUT, the decision has been made. If OP actually ended the entitlements the cat issue may even resolve itself in that the daughter may come and retrieve them at some point (not too likely though). I posed tough questions a month ago so I ask another one, is the cat issue just another way of excusing a lack of action, postponing what needs to be done? | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/22/2008 9:46:01 PM | Hmmmmm,
What I see is a defensive parent trying to justify continued enabling of a dysfunctional child, a child that now is aged 24 and acting 12. On one hand you admit she has made continous bad choices, is lazy, wont work "beneath her self image" and on the other you defend her behavior by saying she isnt a bad person and you dont think she is against seeking help (but then she wont stay in the help sessions). Those light vs dark descriptions are not compatible. I ask what "parents" created this child with a sense of entitlement???? Who allowed her to develop an unjustified sense of rich royalty? Us peons are not her subjects, and we dont owe her anything . I suspect her entire life she has been presented with rules and conditions but has found out that all she has to do is wait and whine and the rules and conditions will be overlooked. She apparently has already violated both of your two recent rules. She hasnt taken a job and she wont attend help sessions. So??? Why is she still in your house??? My experience is that people with a selfish, ego-centered sense of entitlement were created , not born that way. Your choice is to continue repeating the errors of the past and knuckle under to her entitlements (which seems to be your current choice) or stand your ground and send her on her entitled way. Either way its emotionally devastating for you. One path has the potential to help her,,,,,,,,,,,the other path is to doom her to never change. Its your choice. Either stand up and enforce your rules or continue wasting your paycheck and retirement making a comfortable existence for the Princess.
Do you start all your posts with "Hmmmmm"? Yes I remember your other post. You think your questions were "hard"? Hard for whom?
Constructive feedback is one thing, but I'm weary of arrogant, self-righteous, presumptuous blather from people either unqualified or incapable of offering anything helpful. Exhume, presume, and assume as you wish; I'm going to bed.
From a practical standpoint I cannot see why feeding and changing litterboxes for two cats (until a new home could be found however long that may take) would be so challenging and frustrating to forestall immediate action on ending the entitlement.
It would appear as though there are many things you cannot see.
P.S. One question mark is sufficient; two, three, or four are unnecessary. Is that supposed to mean a question with four question marks is more of a question than a question with one? Now that's a hard question. | |
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| When Your Grown Children Are Irresponsible
Posted: 8/23/2008 8:30:47 AM | I guess i lost out on a huge amount of posts, but i just thought i would check in on you , and it seems like that the father of the year up there has all the answers, so i was wondering if his kids were asked, what they would say about his rules and regulations and what kind of relationship they TRULY have with good ole dad? or ...is he a dad at all/
me thinks the mouth that critisizes too much, holds the same rule as in other lesson in life.
THIS THREAD must really hurt or hit home for him.
so take no heed of the ones that hurt or say mean things and tuck those wize words that are helpful into your hat and remember this always. KEEP THE FORK.
If you have a question to that quote, its such a beautiful story and my daughters and i always grow misty eyed if we start to let tiny little mustard seeds get in the way of our beautful relationship......all we have to do is whisper. KEEP THE FORK. and we suddenly remember that life is way way too short for all this crap. hugz, sweetheart!!!
keep on holdin on.! :0 | |
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