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| palestinian politics
Posted: 9/19/2008 9:42:36 AM |
Why is this forum tollerating this kind of racism...
I read and re read this thread and see no racism? We need to lose the idea that there are topics that cannot be discussed. It is especially in the interest of jewish people/ israelies. When discussion of them is autmatically met with YOUR A NAZI, THIS IS RACIST even though there is no race involved , The n we get a week of Hitlers henchmen on the Discover yChannel it makes us goy even more suspicious. They dont have a title of nobility just because of what happened in WW2. 50 million people died in WW2, the whole thing sucked. Why is this topic sooo taboo? And dont try pinning any lables on me because the best sex I always get is with Jewish women. And Jewish men always seemed puzzled by that ! lol | |
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Posted: 9/19/2008 11:22:32 AM |
since we all know that the jewish children are taught from a very early age to kill Palestinians ... that is nothing new. ... so it'll take some sort of an act of a much higher power to convince me that the Zionists aren't anything more than a bunch of land-stealing murderers. Ah Yes. We're no longer a moderated forum, so the lies are forthcoming.
Jewish children, as any intelligent person knows, are taught no such thing.
Said the 27-year old "public relations/student". Uh huh ... Even if you grew up there ... it wouldn't matter to me You actually have the audacity to admit that an informed opinion doesn't count, because "we all know"! 
I think those who have followed my posts over these years will recall that I have consistently supported the cause of the Palestinians. I, of course, have also have also supposted the cause of the Israelis. My constant plea has always been for people to remember that there are two sides, not just one. Two legitimate claims.
A Jewish Israel is simply a sovereign state in which the majority of the people are Jewish, as defined by the Jews. Yes, there actually are definitions, but Whiskey doesn't get to twist them. Let's keep it simple, folks.
My best wishes to Nero1, who is the only one on the Palestinian side who appears to have gotten it. I suppose I ought to be happy that someone understands, but it saddens me that it should be just one. The impression I get is that many others are sincere and intelligent, but for some unknown reason cannot accept that there can be more than one side to this. It just doesn't appear to be that difficult a concept for a thoughtful person to digest.
But now I personally have a decision to make. Apparently these forums are now unmoderated. I see people like Cotter, who's posts are reasonable in other areas, simply go rabid and feel free to lie and post the most virilent anti-Israeli material imaginable. Yet I have not seen any strong support from her for the Palestinians themselves. Only for their right to kill Israelis, which she apparently rather favors.
So I think this is not the place for me any longer. I think, under the circumstances, I'll go along with Marcus, and allow these forums to be shut down.
If there's anyone else who actually can see that there might be two-sides to this thing, or as I suggested before, think that the Palestinians could accept a fair and just settlement for a Palestinian State if it still included a Jewish Israel, please let me know.
My intention is to stop posting to these forums, but I probably will look in from time to time.
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Posted: 9/19/2008 11:52:11 AM | | I'm a Jewish person and 2 of my good friends and classmates are Palestinian. They aren't dead...I guess I wasn't taught very well. And what's with the quotes around something you found in my bio? Are you doubting that I am either 27 years old or a student of International Relations? Honestly, those doubts would be unwarranted. | |
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Posted: 9/19/2008 12:51:51 PM | Ok...look, Whiskey papa, you clearly have no idea what is going on...I will attempt to address your post in an intellectual manner and hope you have the ability to keep up.
The governing body of the Palestinians is both Fatah and Hamas.
Good job...you can listen to CNN. Unfortunately, what you can not do is research. In 2006, the election, which took place in both the West Bank and Gaza resulted in Hamas winning 74 seats and Fatah winning 45. This means that Hamas is the governing body. Do you understand this yet? 74>45. I know I'm just a lowly International Relations Student (or am I?), and I don't know math that well...but I am pretty sure that 74 is more than 45.
The line: "...israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it...." is a quote from Iman Hassan Al-Banna. It is a quote in the preamble not an article in the charter.
Wow! Way to debate! I never said it was an article, I said it was in the charter. Thank you for pointing out that it was in the beginning...before you even get to the articles of operation, they flat out state that the following information is based on their desire to destroy Israel.
Here...let me take your argument further, "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." It's ok everyone....don't worry, America. Your liberity, prosperity and Welfare are not of a concern to form a perfect Union with Justice and Tranquility. This is only the Preamble and has no bases to anything. You, sir, are my hero.
You are being dishonest when you say Iran is building a nuclear weapon. The IAEA regularly inspects the Iranian facilities and they say Iran is not develpoing nuclear weapons. The national Intelligence Estimate concurs as does The Institute of Science And International Security.
Yes, they are. Just because a Muslim working for the UN says they aren't doesn't mean anything. The UN is the second most anti semetic organization on the planet and largely anti American. MI-6 and Mossad say they are. So does globalsecurity.org with this quote. "Iran does not currently have nuclear weapons, and would appear to be about two years away from acquiring nuclear weapons. By some time in 2006, however, Iran could be producting fissile material for atomic bombs using both uranium enriched at Natanz and plutonium produced at Arak. The Natanz facility might produce enough uranium for about five bombs every year, and the Arak facility might produced enough plutonium for as many as three bombs every year"
In an interview which was released July of this year, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said, "Iran will continue its nuclear path." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/31/nuclear.iran
The NPT , which both the U.S. and Iran are signatorys, gives them the right to develop nuclear technology, enriching fuel is not outside any parameters. Yet, the U.S. , which is supposed to be assisting its fellow signatorys , directed by AIPAC is leading in the unlawful sancions and threats of war.
Paths to war?
israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it kinda like that, right? Nonetheless, the wonderful and peaceful and loving President of Iran has stated many times his desire to wipe Israel off the map. And yes, there are these sites that say he never said that. So what did he say,
"The Amam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."
"The state of Israel can not continue to exist" -9-13-07 as addressed in the Columbia speech.
"the solution to the Middle East crisis is to destroy Israel"
"...the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime"
"Israel is an illegitimate regime, there is no legal basis for its existence" -last 3 from an emergency meeting with Muslim Leaders in 2006
why does the zionist regime, that has the fourth largest arned forces in the world, backed by the worlds only superpower, bristling with nuclear weapons of its own , supposedly fear Iran? a country that has not attacked another country in over two hundred years? Iran has limited conventional weapons, a navy consisting of speedboats and an airforce that cannot fly because they cannot get parts for the aircrafts.
As already stated, you just pulled that number out of your rear. Again...no research. According to the CIA world fact book, largest military in the world goes like this.
1. China
2. America.
3. India
4.Russia
...
8. Iran
9. Turkey
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11. Egypt
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16. Syria
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30. Israel
Wow. With the exception of the first 4, which have their own problems with each other, 8, 9, 11 and 16 either are or have recently been Israel's enemy. A nation who ranks 30 in size. About the Air Force, they are currently purchasing Su-30s from Russia. They have over a dozen squandrons. You are looking at a report from the early 90s when they said they were having trouble reverse engineering the parts for the f-4s they had. They still have f-14 tomcats from the 80s...which is still a remarkable plane. They have thousands of trained Pilots. Air Force info from an article posted on globalsecurity.org You are incorrect about what they have for the Navy as well...however, that argument is moot seeing how no force on this earth can stand up to the American Navy and we are surrounding them. But a Navy has no purpose in an Israel/Iran war. Doubt me? Look at a map.
back to HAMAS. hamas was elected as the representative of the palestinian people in Gaza. a country suffering from the zionist blockade that is just as extreme as the blockade of the Warsaw ghetto. Do you suppose , if the zionists showed some humanity and even assisted the Gazans in economic development, Hamas would be voted out? Is this a possibility or will the shame of the zionists push them to further extremes?
I have to be honest. I can not address this. I have 2 reasons why I can not address this. First off, I have no idea what you are attempting to say. It looks to me like you are blaming the entire thing on Israel and, as I have stated before, have no clue as to what is going on. Like I said, the people that have been there or have studied this know that both sides have problems. The Palestinians are just as much to blame as the Israelis. At least I have enough honor to admit I am pro Israel with the intellectual honesty to step back and see the problem as a whole. If you care to explain what you are trying to say in this quote, I will deliberate with you further.
The second reason is more of an intellectual personal reason. Here's the thing, whiskeypapa, I will be more than happy to bust you up all day long on your "facts" as I have done here. And I have more...any time you want to post again without research, I will crush again. Problem here is, you have absolutely no willingness to admit you are possibly wrong in your opinions. It's ok to have the opinions, but when you don't research, you actually come off either sounding racist, as previously mentioned by another poster; ignorant, as implied thoroughly by myself; or just asking a question in an attempt to valid your thoughts. The last of the 3 is acceptable, but you have to actually ask the question with a minimal bias and to the point where I will know what you are asking?
Again, thanks for deliberating with me
Better luck next time
James | |
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| palestinian politics
Posted: 9/19/2008 1:12:59 PM | At the end of the day, James, you cannot and will not be able to debate with people who advocate with the Muslim Law of Dhimmi...As I have said before:
"The real problem is the Muslim law of Dhimmi, and the Arabs/Muslims would never allow a state within it's borders or indeed be governed by any non Muslim, even though it would be in a state where they would be given rights and priveledges which they wouldn't give themselves..."
I think whiskeypapa knows this, so why would he advocate or call for a situation he KNOWS would never happen...btw...He does spell Whiskey correctly though....So he ain't that daft, he knows wot he is doing.... | |
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Posted: 9/19/2008 1:28:50 PM | I am not sure what you mean by your last sentence. Is that an inside joke or did I miss spell it somewhere? Nevertheless, you are correct that you can not sway someones thoughts. Therefore, it is important to say that it is not my goal. Here is the thing, there is a lot of people that agree with him.
I will prove he is wrong on everything he says until he posts something that is true. I will not lie and say that I have read every page of this thread, however, what I have read from his posts, Whiskeypapa has no concept of reality. This is what is happening here; I am attempting to get him to think rationally so that I can at least understand where he comes from. This is deliberation. I am attempting to do this by proving, through cited sources, that he is wrong. In doing so, I hope that the peanut gallery will see this and either ask questions to which go to something that is important to them about this issue or think a little critically.
I really just want to know where he is coming from. There is no secret with me. I am Jewish American (convert) who supports Israel. I do not support everything Israel does, but I support Israel. If someone reads my posts on this board, not just this thread, they can ascertain things about me that would further enhance the understanding where I am coming from. What I want to know is why a Native American from Edmonton thinks this way. What is the expertise? How often have you been there and what did you do while there? Where else in the middle east has he gone? What is his education in? I guess I just don't understand why he thinks this way and why he is so hell bent on protesting the horrible entity that is Zionist Israel.
Thanks for your support and insight
Cheers
James | |
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| palestinian politics
Posted: 9/19/2008 3:29:16 PM | James
Had Hitler and his followers (including the palestinian al-Husseini around 1942/43) actually conquered Britain my grandmother,along with her baby daughter (my mother) would have been sent to the gas chambers,whilst her husband was fighting overseas against the very anti semitic shite the Arabs are spoutin today...And indeed this whiskey (blessed be his spelling of the name right) would't have such a nemesis as myself...How presumptious of me I know...
At the end of the day, it's the merchants bankers who are the winners in this "bag of shite"......
We are all people/persons/sons/daughters of (insert)....
Once a veteran of WWII told me a story (he is 86 now)...He does presentations for children in schools, everytime a child asks him "how many Germans did you kill"...He replies: "Think about this, for every person killed in WWII, they would have been the
brothers/sister/mothers/fathers/cousins/uncles/aunties to and also friends of......Someone who missed them/greived" | |
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| palestinian politics
Posted: 9/19/2008 6:12:27 PM | True, while HAMAS won the democratic election fairly. Those two great purveyors of democracy in the middle east set out to destroy it. To this end they trained 500 Fatah fighters in Egypt at a cost of 84 million. the fighters were allowed into Gaza at the Rafah crossing, quite an unusual occurance since even ambulances are needlessly delayed. The Fatah fighters then attacked HAMAS . Fatah was routed and they fled to the occupied territoy of the west bank where they expelled HAMAS. what is strange, and I do not understand the machinations of it, while Fatah was well armed, they ran out of ammunition.(christian science monitor, 25 may 2007.) So while HAMAS may be the de jure governing body of the Palestinians, in fact, thanks to the U.S. and the zionist regime, Fatah governs the est bank and HAMAS governs Gaza.
To clarify Mahmouds statement about the zionist regime vanishing into the pages of time he went on to say zionism should go the way of the USSR and Saddam Hussain, two remimes that do not exist any more. Something you should understand about the Iranians, like all Orientals they consider talking directly as unrefined. They try to speak poetically.
The CIA fact book, what a joke. The fact is the U.S. has the largest armed forces in the world. If the world, today, decided to attack the U.S. the U.S. would be the winner in exactly one half hour.
Ok, I'll ask this question plainly: Do you suppose, if the zionists showed some humanity, and even assisted the Gazans in economic development, Hamas would be voted out?
I don't watch CNN. I get my information from the web. Some sites I visit are:
bruised earth
antiwardotcom
uruknet
christian science monitor
global research
Hamoked
B'Tselem
The encyclopedia of the palestinian problem has much historical information.
In my research I have developed an abiding respect for Judaism. I have nothing but contempt for zionism. Just as Islam has been coopted by radicalism, Christianity by doomsday cultists I view zionism as a parasite on Judaism. | |
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Posted: 9/21/2008 2:10:46 PM |
To this end they trained 500 Fatah fighters in Egypt at a cost of 84 million.
whiskey whiskey whiskey, there you go again. How exactly does israel train anyone in EGYPT? -- note to cotter : this is what uninformed, never-been-in-the-region, ignorant one-sided people sound like, and this is the kind of nonsense they come up with.
for other examples, just re-read your own posts.
Egypt isn't exactly Israel's allie. there's peace between israel and egypt in the sense that there is no war between them and the border is maintained calm, that's about it. Israel has no leverage to do what it likes in Egypt.
I guess Israelis, who can't start a day without drinking (at least) one cup of palestinean blood ( except during passover in which we must eat matza -- primary ingredient being christian children) can force their will on anyone ;)
-- anyone but whiskey, cotter, and the other selectively-intelligent individual from california, all of whom clearly know better.
oh and for the record, james, whiskey is pretty much the only reason i write in this forum. apparently you're not alone. I also asked him once what's his agenda and i'm still waiting for an answer. I'm also curious what drives someone in canada to be so selectively one-sided, i guess he took it as an insult, but i'm just curious.
i had a good response for cotter, but i decided to cut it short simply because i don't want this thread to go in that direction. i suggest you all do the same.
in defense of james` message to the c-otters, i spent 90% of my life in israel and i don't think i'm preaching war or hate here in any way. any of my recent posts will back me up on that. so if james` words don't work for you, cotter, mine should.
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Posted: 9/21/2008 2:28:03 PM | It is one thing to criticize certain policies of Israel, but to seemingly do so in a vacuum of history and with selective examination of said history paints a particular picture of the debater...in this thread and in others where the comments are more off-topic that smacks of bitter, dead-horse-beating tirade...trying to get in "last-licks" or kicks at the can when they believe that no one is looking. But there are moderators looking and they will continue to do their work right up until the last minute...people would be well advised to remember that.
On the subject of those critical of Zionism as a movement without examination of the subtle issues surrounding it, I stand with Dr. King when I cast a light on their true motivations:
"Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism"
- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.
"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.
"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.
"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.
"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.
This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.
"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.
"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!
"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.
Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."
From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.
Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."
I extend the right to all people of all nations to have a place to call a homeland, including the Arabs of the Middle East and those currently dwelling in areas that have come to be called Palestine.
However, considering the two millenia of deliberate and near on to constant attempt to exterminate the Jewish culture for the "make-believe" charge of deicide, they are a unique case in history and do deserve a land of their own where they can exist as an enitity immune from the thread of cultural annihilation by their neighbours.
Make no mistake - when people refuse to examine both sides of the issue, it is a thread of anti-Jewish hatred, fear, "Protocols-induced-paranoia" or some similar nonsense, no more sensible than any other make-believe bogeyman that will be exploited for knee jerk responses from the fearful. | |
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Posted: 9/21/2008 2:37:06 PM |
"...extend the right to all people of all nations to have a place to call a homeland, including the Arabs of the Middle East and those currently dwelling in areas that have come to be called Palestine.
However, considering the two millenia of deliberate and near on to constant attempt to exterminate the Jewish culture for the "make-believe" charge of deicide, they are a unique case in history and do deserve a land of their own where they can exist as an enitity immune from the thread of cultural annihilation by their neighbours.
Make no mistake - when people refuse to examine both sides of the issue, it is a thread of anti-Jewish hatred, fear, "Protocols-induced-paranoia" or some similar nonsense, no more sensible than any other make-believe bogeyman that will be exploited for knee jerk responses from the fearful."
So very well said. | |
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| palestinian politics
Posted: 9/21/2008 5:10:56 PM | so speaking out against the atrocities committed on the Palestinians by the zionists is anti-semetism? "protocols induced paranoia"???
cloaking the depraved atrocities of the zionists in Judaism is just plain disgusting. According to Nuterai Karta the acts of compassion and goodness are the essence of Judaism.
Why should the Palestinians, the one people in the world who had no hand in the jewish holocaust have to pay with their lives for the sins of the Europeans?
No one nation tried to stop the holocaust, rather, they lent a hand. The U.S. and Canada refused entrance and turned back shiploads of Jewish refugees. Jew-hating Eastern Europeans put escaped jews back on the trains or killed them outright. Britain and the U.S. refused to bomb the train lines to the death camps.
When the Jews and the Muslims were expelled from Spain , the jews went to other countrys in the middle east where, according to Uri Avnery a respected Israeli journalist, they were protected as brothers, "people of the book" for fifty generations. It wasn't until the advent of zionism that the troubles began.
Now criminals and hobos from Eastern Europe are imported as jews and they bring their criminal mentality to Palestine and inflict it on the Palestinians. The West turns a blind eye to the daily atrocities that include: beatings ,murder and outright theft because of the guilt they feel .
The atrocites committed by the zionists are just as depraved as those committed on the jews during the war years and the years leading up to it.
Certainly Martin Luther King felt empathy for the jews at the time of his greatest struggles. Blacks today enjoy the freedoms for which he struggled; but would he say it is right to kill another and take his place? Zionism was birthed in the times of Communism and National socialism and seems to have engendered the worst of those two communites and should follow them into the dustbins of history.
Present day zionists resist the movement for a one-state solution to their problems, saying they fear an Islamic state where they would be second class citizens. Why not a single state with equal rights for all? It works in the U.S. | |
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Posted: 9/21/2008 5:17:00 PM | terrible, I gave the source of the story of the 550 hundred Fatah fighters. look it up and answer your question yourself.
fiddler you might be a masterdebater but I'm a cunning linguist. | |
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Posted: 9/22/2008 12:33:53 AM | whiskey, the problem with your entire line of reasoning is a faulty premise of what zionism is and how it relates to israel, because your specific defintion applies to a minority radical group that really does not represent the nation as a whole, far from it.
what you need to absorb is this:
zionism = jews living in zion.
zion = wherever jerusalem is.
it's as simple as that.
if you have a problem with jews living in zion then you're not exactly advocating a "single state with equal rights for all".
if you don't have a problem with that then you're not anti zionist.
to be anti zionist means to believe that jews don't belong in israel, period. that is entirely within your right, i just need you to understand what you're saying, cause it seems like you don't.
now ,since you're placing the palestinean right for the land on history, you must realize that generations of jews in israel cannot be excluded from that history, and are infact most recent.
for example: if i have kids in israel, they would tell you that their parents, and their parents parents , and their parents` parents` parents -- and infact anyone in their family was BORN in israel.
but according to your logic they should leave. leave where? you don't care. "back to europe" says the wise self-proclaimed anti zionist. bring the land back to the helpless palestineans. to whom? to a person born of someone born of someone born of someone who used to live in israel. to a person that never set foot there yet proclaims ownership of the land to a point of evacuation of its immediate residents. and you do so in the name of justice, with no agenda that you wish to share with us.
you propose a single state solution. while israel is already implementing a multicultural nation. we learn arabic in highschool. traffic signs are in hebrew, arabic and english.the national broadcast television channel broadcasts shows in arabic. i grew up watching sitcoms on the israeli channel, that dealt with israeli arab issues.
close to 50% of the programming was in arabic as i remember it, in the one single channel that non cable television could recieve. that and we got 2 other channels from jordan and lebanon. so basically there was more arabic on television than hebrew.
sesame street (our version) is ALL ABOUT co-existence.
to bring this to your own doorstep, israel applies the multicultural concept better than canada. do come to vancouver and tell me how many french signs you see, or go to montreal and try to manage without speaking french.
so for you to suggest otherwise is extremely ignorant.
there is one condition here that you seem to feel is unncessary , and that's the issue of the right of return for jews to israel which basically means any jew can be a citizen in israel. which you can say is undemocratic, and it isn't, but it's not exactly hurting anyone is it?, and it's not going to change.
false premise: israelis are getting back at the palestineans because of what happened to them in the holocaust. that's the kind of logic i expect from a 7th grader, and i'm not kidding. you're old enough to know better... this isn't even worth a serious reponse.
so let's see, an equal state with equal right for all....
that's pretty much israel today, with the exclusion of anyone living in the palestinean territories, which you keep failing to realize -- isn't part of israel.
i don't mind calling it a palestinean state, and i don't care if they have one or not, i just don't really see why you expect the israelis to put up with an oragnized body trying to kill them. and yes, as previously stated out to you, that's officilly what the hamas is about. and they are currently the governing body of the palestinean state.
if you want to advocate justice in israel, talk about the subject of "jerusalem residents". but then the good of helpless people wronged by society is not your agenda is it? you have a beef with the "zionists" -- and you think that talking nonsense about israel helps your cause.
israelis are not zionists, and those that relate to themselves as such do not understand the meaning of that word the same way you do, i've explained it to you already 3 times, yet you insist that you understand it better. quite arrogant considering it's not in your native tongue and it is in mine.
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Posted: 9/22/2008 6:16:40 AM | | you paint a rosy picture but tell me what life is like for the Palestinians in the occupied territorys. Explain refugeecamps. explain occupied territories. I chalenge you to read B'tselem, HaMoked and uruknet then to come back and tell me of the blessed wonders of zionism. | |
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Posted: 9/22/2008 10:12:27 AM | i have read betselem and the reality is that you don't have to read betselem to find out the conditinon of the palestineans, it's not being censured from the media, it IS in mainstream news papers and television.
i'm not sure what your point is, that it sucks to live in palestine today ?
no kidding.
know what? we're not initiating this war and we're not encouraging it, and they day they elected hamas is the day i stopped thinking that they are good inviduals ruled by a strong radical minority. apparently that radical minority is not a minority.
i don't think they're bad people, but i know what to expect from a nation that does censure the truth and twists reality to paint israelis as murderous monsters, somewhat like you're doing right here. no wonder they're wasting their lives in a futile battle, losing whatever glimmer of potential they have left trying to defeat a monster that doesn't really exist. their problem is that they are misinformed and used by factions that do not really care for their well being. do i care for their well being? not really. but i don't use them to further my private agenda like you're doing.
should i care about palestinean refugee camps? are they my problem or responsibility? they want me dead. why should i give a crap. let their "muslim brothers" help them. have they? not really, they gave them guns and sent them on a futile war to fight their enemies. using them to further their own agendas, once again, just like you're doing right here. i'm still not sure why.
occupied territories? i seem to recall a peace process that went to hell because the palestineans found it too difficult not to kill the people they were negotiating with. tell me whiskey, if life sucks so much for the average palestinean, shoudln't they put reason before pride ? you'd imagine they would. why didn't they?
they were offered nothing? as opposed to the nothing they have today?
do you really believe they can destroy israel and take control of the area?
do you really think violence would lead them anywhere better than where they are today?
even if they did by some divine intervention destroy israel, the surrounding arab nations would take over and they would again live in refugee camps. if they're left alive at all. that's how politics works in the arab world, they're not encumbered by ethics as we are. no one speaks against hizballah in lebanon because they know what would happen if they would.
on the other hand, the very existence of the israeli news media that you propose i read goes to show you that self criticism thrives in israel, which is the mark of a real democracy. show me the same in the palestinean territories before you propose i live under their rule.
then to come back and tell me of the blessed wonders of zionism.
you're very likely using a computer that uses an intel chip that's a direct product of "the belssed wonders of zionism."
one sidedness doesn't take you very far, whiskey. israel is not perfect, i already confessed to that myself, but you need to learn to pick the real stories and try to understand why things happens as they do.
we don't live in a world of monsters and demons, whiskey.
i don't NEED you to understand the israeli side. i could not care less what some stranger in canada thinks, especially as selectively uninformed as he is. but because of that very reason that i don't believe in demons and monsters i know that something drives your hate and i'm trying to understand it. I need to understand what drives people to hate other people they've never met.
are you doing the same? not really. what makes you ethically superior to me?
so why are the palestinean refugee camps so miserable...
i don't know.
why are the native indian reserves in canada so miserable?
natives own pretty much most of the land in BC. when you want to build something you need the approval of the province and the approval of the natives.
the University of BC is set on native land. do you even understand how much money and power is involved here?
and yet, the indian reserve in vancouver suffers from lack of centralized planning and poverty. they don't pay taxes and yet they don't have roads everywhere.
why is that? they have the money and they have the means to better their lives, yet they choose to buy a boat and park it on their lawn.
were they wronged in the past? probably. but not today.
poverty and misery happens, the trick is to take the opportunities that come and break out of the cycle. the proposal for a palestinean nation during the peace process was one such proposal, which the palestineans have wasted away. wasting it even further by electing the hamas.
what future do they have with a leading body whose very existence is defined by war. a war they cannot win. | |
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| palestinian politics
Posted: 9/22/2008 10:43:49 AM | Dude....
Whiskey is not listenning, not reading...He has his own racist agenda and uses this forum to spout his racist views, it's quite apparent...
I have posted the reasons why there are refugee camps, I have told him and this forum that they could have been housed by the rich Arab nations, but alas they have been left to rot by their own "brothers"...I have posted about the reasons why the Palestinians left Israel to let the Arab nations wipe the Jews of the face of the Earth (like the Nazis tried to) to go back and populate a ethnically cleansed country...But oh, no, he has ignored all that....
I think that using these poor people in his and their (the Arabs) political agenda disgusting....
The suffering of these people only lie in the hands of their fellow "brothers" whom care not for them...
At the end of the day, if I moved into a street and all my neihgbours started throwing bricks at me, I would retaliate, infact I have done something similar...so I can't help but feel sorry for the Jews and their precarious State... | |
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| palestinian politics
Posted: 9/22/2008 11:24:49 AM | I'm well aware of the history of the region...on both sides...and I don't believe any of it should be suppressed. I also don't believe any of it should be taken to the level of absurd hyperbole either.
Think about this for a second...
When does one become a native "Palestinean?" Surely when you are born on the soil? If that is the case, then regardless of what banner they are fighting under or movement they are fighting for, Palestinians are now killing Palestinians...Israelis are killing Israelis...
How many Israelis living in Israel are "just off the boat" these days?
How many Palestinians are just over the border from Jordan or elsewhere...freedom fighters from other regions?
This is a fight amongst natives on both sides that needs to be resolved. The persistence in depicting one side as thieves and robbers is the issue here. It is simply a caricature. | |
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| palestinian politics
Posted: 9/26/2008 7:26:20 AM | Perhaps what the middle east needs is our first amendment...
"the Congress shall make no law which respects the establishment of religion..."
That means the Jewish religion... Islam... Christianity... the works... is OUT of government and laws... complete separation of church and state.
Then and only then will there be peace on earth and goodwill toward all men. Until then, the fanatics within the religion in power will impose religion-based laws that contradict the religious beliefs of others and the fanatics within the others will raise their fists to fight. | |
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| palestinian politics
Posted: 9/27/2008 2:39:52 PM | Not exactly a means to encourage peace...
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080926152921.p3wozs19&show_article=1&lst=1 | |
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| palestinian politics
Posted: 10/6/2008 12:45:47 AM |
And dont try pinning any lables on me because the best sex I always get is with Jewish women. And Jewish men always seemed puzzled by that ! lol
It's late at night, and all I can say is... yikes! | |
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| palestinian politics
Posted: 10/6/2008 9:47:49 AM | What i wonder when i read this tread, is what those who want to champion such groups as hamas really want from Isreal? When will these groups be happy. I do see that there are many palestininans who want to live in peace. Hamas isnt part of them.
I will also agree that if we look at history there are reasons for both sides to be unhappy. There is always a "justification" for hate and violence. But that doesnt make it right. Both sides need to stop the violence. | |
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| palestinian politics
Posted: 10/7/2008 6:08:07 AM | ^^ That's deceptively simple: Hamas wants destruction of Israel, and/or of Jews if they can manage it; their website says it loud and clear. Not nice guys.
However... Public support of Hamas swings anywhere from 15% to 85%, depending on current political events. I.e. when Palestinians decide there is hope of peace, Hamas loses its appeal. When Israelis see is hope of peace, Israeli hawks lose theirs.
Hamas is, among other things, a political organization, too, and it's listening to its constituents. Not too long ago, per popular demand, Hamas was going to change its direction and officially agree to 2-state solution. Israel did not cease the opportunity, because there were hawks in power in Israel at the time. It's really not Israelis vs. Palestinians, it's moderates vs. hard-liners. | |
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| palestinian politics
Posted: 10/10/2008 6:47:28 AM | Both sides are wrong because their motivation and their governments are religious.
The muslims in that part of the world simply despise Israel and jews because of their continued religiious beliefs that they are the chosen people and that by occupying the original land, the new messiah will come. This treatens Islam and therefore they cannot tolerate it. If Muslims were confident in the righteousness of their religion, they wouldn't have to fight Israel... all they would need to do is propagate the faith through more children in that region and then vote. They wouldn't have to kill the Jews because Judiasm would be of no consequence.
On the other hand, Israel and its Jews don't help their own cause because they insist on incorporating Jewish law into law governing a population that includes Muslims. That is not acceptible either. Further, Israeli tax distribution is akin to the U.S. distribution to black communities in the early 1960s. The greatest amount of taxes collected from the wealthy (predominately Jews) are spent to support the wealthy. Therefore the poorer Muslims are left with unequal education, unequal healthcare, unequal job opportunities and that all manifests itself in frustration and rage. Israelis are getting the behavior they're promoting but they too can't have prosperous Muslims because that might position Islam over Judiasm.
For U.S. Americans reading this... we need to take heed of what both sides are doing and apply it to our own society. This is precisely why "God" cannot be included in anything paid for by the public or governing the public. People can always have private organizations and schools that teach religious beliefs. However we cannot impose any establishment of religion onto the public at large. I happen to believe in God BUT I also understand why "in God we trust", "one nation under God", prayer, and creation cannot be included or performed in anything paid for with public funds or executed in any public institution including public schools. | |
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