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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/25/2008 6:46:09 AM |
So, ready4somethingfun, you are 100% native American and none of your ancestors were immigrants. Most of us came here on a ship either on top or on the bottom, but either way we came on a ship and had to fight for our civil rights in this country. If you are a native American then I can feel your pain (100%), if not get over yourself.
Hi faith,
No I am probably not 100% native American. At some point a number of years ago someone came from somewhere else to get here. I am part cherokee, so someone in my past had some hanky panky with a native. I am also of hungarian descent in some capacity.
This is a discussion not of legal immigration, but one of illegal immagration. Those who arrived on ships were either legal immigrants who worked hard to become a US citizen or slaves, which unfortunetly were legally bought and traded at one time here right or wrong. Yes, we know African Americans had several very tall mountains to climb to secure their civil rights as citizens of the United States and I am very sorry for that. I had nothing to do with it and although those rights were gained around 50 years ago, I am reminded of it daily (thank you for today's reminder by the way). But the fact is neither of those circumstances pertain to this discussion (no matter how hard beachbum wants them to) so both are moot points.
Our little disccusion here pertains to illegal aliens who come here without proper documentation and illegally work here. Which is wrong from a legal standpoint and an economic standpoint (and to me a moralistic standpoint). And since the issues at hand have nothing to do with your statements, I will continue to feel my "pain" (if that's what you'd like to call my viewpoint), I will not get over myself, and could care less if you feel my "pain" is valid or not. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/25/2008 1:16:46 PM | "Tranquil, I appreciate your post, but you continue to fail to see the shades of grey that come into play. Because people are angered by our governments lack of protection afforded the US residents, legal residents, that is, and because the mexican government encourages the practice of supporting said illegal entry, does not mean that everyone discussing this topic against illegal immigration is wanting every foreigner or mexican eradicated. We're simply speaking in terms of legal vs non-legal (illegal). We would like those without documentation to be dealt with and that's it."
Manerider,
You could say that "Shades of Gray" is my middle name! I am surprised that you don't see that I am constantly pushing for people to recognize that not all is clearly black/white in this issue. I even see many types of differences among that group of so called "illegal aliens," whereas some posters just see all of them as just one big mass of people that they don't want here. If you have any fiber of pragmatism in your being and are not totally bent by some kind of impractical ideology on this issue, you will have to agree that in order to achieve some kind of agreement that can be widely supported by most Americans, we will need to talk about the differences among people who are here without proper documents: they are not all the same; most of them are not violent criminals, drug dealing gangsters. It is an erroenous ideology that causes people to talk about "criminal, illegal aliens" that need to be deported in a wholesale scale. I am calling for us to be very clear about what we are saying, and more to the point, people who would get rid of all the "illegal Mexicans" need to spell very clearly how they are going to do that, because there is a clear danger that things can get out of control, especially among people who haven't learnt to respect other human beings, or are too enraged to be able to think properly, or if they are able to do so, they can easily take advantage of the chaotic situation to profit big time from abusing defenseless people.
Let's hope that our ability to reason will help us to avoid that scenario. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/25/2008 1:40:58 PM | Hi tranquillo,
why don't you tell us what different groups you see? maybe that would help your defense a bit.
And why do you keep saying all "we" (the people FOR deportation) are for is deportation of illegal Mexicans. Nothing is further from the truth. All illegal aliens should be deported. Only problem is 99.999999 percent seem to be Mexican. At least they are ones with the easiest access to our country. Show me statistics to the contrary from a reputable source and I'll whistle a different tune instantaniously.
Most of them are not violent, drug dealing gangsters. This is true, but as soon as they cross that border they are felons, plain and simple, according to our laws. You say we need to get tougher on our own crime first, but I don't see any felons getting off scott free (except with those shyster attorneys I mentioned before) that are getting caught. No one is even trying to catch any illegal aliens at this point & time unless they are doing something ELSE against the law (driving illegally, murder, aggravated assault, improper gain or use of credit, the aforementioned gang-banging or drug dealing). Even those aliens here legally get deported for those crimes (except maybe the driving stuff).
Before anything is going to be done about this problem (if at all) those in power are going to have to admit it's a problem. As long as it doesn't affect them personally they probably won't so I wouldn't worry too much about any of this ever coming into play anyways. Unless suddenly illegal aliens are given the right to run for political office. Then watch how fast we have a problem.
One thing though, in one post you are worrying about violence from illegals, next post you are calling them defenseless. Which is it?
And I just read a story yesterday that gangs formed by illegal aliens were growing in large numbers. Is it not better to stop that crap before it starts, instead of waiting until it gets out of control? | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/25/2008 2:56:48 PM | Can you please tell me why you have capitalized the words LEGAL, LAW ABIDING and CITIZENS excetra?. Do you normally write like that?, [see what I mean now?.]
Saying that his thread is aimed at FELONS is absolute nonsense and I challenge you on that too. If the actions you support are to be enacted on FELONS then tell me, is this ALL FELONS, IMMIGRANT FELONS or even AMERICAN FELONS, Please could tell me which felonies too. Is it any felony or just the one?, and if it is just the one felony that you particularly dislike, ignoring all the ones that really hurt your country and are committed by your LEGAL CITIZENS, can you tell me why you have selected just that particular one from the whole range of felony crimes committed in America each year..
This is a post about illegal aliens, So that might be the felony I am referring to DUH! I have little patience with felons but this thread is only about Illegal Aliens.If you want to start a thread about all felons we can. As for the capitalization, I only write that way when people don't use common sense and I am trying to make them use their head for something besides a hatrack.To compare this issue to Nazism is the height of obfuscation of the issue. Once again entering into the USA without proper paperwork is a felony.Therefore to enter illegally makes one a felon.Therefore if you enter illegally you are a criminal. Is that simple enough.It doesn't matter if you are Chinese,Irish,Mexican or anything else. Therefore it is not a racist issue because this applies to all races.DUH! | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/25/2008 3:52:41 PM | Traquil I realize you keep pushing for people to realize it is not all black and white, when in fact, it is very clear cut......BLACK AND WHITE... if you like. It is, as eric2008 states, a felony to enter this country without documentation, and shame on our elected people who do not protect native or legal americans rights they are due.
It is wrong for them to infiltrate our land. Period. Perhaps you came illegally and finally gained a legal status, I dont' know. I know you immigrated, but you've never discolsed much as to how that came to be. I'm assuming you're a legal resident, so I can understand your plight for those who are coming here illegally.
But getting back to your POV, some people see "all illegal aliens" as just that. Well, sorry to burst yor bubble,, but they are ALL illegal felons. We not only don't need them here, we want them to leave. If they have obtained legal status, through legal means, we welcome them. It IS that simple, regardless of WHAT Country they are home to. And I really would be interested in the differences you speak of, although I'm sure it will have nothing to do with legal status. That's really all that matters, at this point. It matters not if they are decent people, or if they're not violent. It doesn't matter if they're not dealing drugs or kidnapping. But regardless, even if they're Mother Theresa, if they walked across our border illegally, they're criminals, felons, and this Country needs to start acknowledging that fact. We, in America, have survived many tragedies, and I doubt very seriously that some impending doom is headed for us if we suddenly start getting ilegals out of our Country.
Your speak of people (of US descent) respecting other people. Tell me what respect mexicans have for Americans? DO they honor our laws? No, they don't. Do they show any remorse for the finacial burdens placed on our people by their being here? No, they do not. To the contrary, they show a sense of entitlement to our good deeds and good nature. And quite frankly, Iv'e seen how criminals are treated. LOL. so, I'm less than concerned about the future of ilegal aliens should my Country ever decide to enforce it's immigration laws. AS far as I'm concerned , it cannot happen soon enough. It's already gone too far, and if nothings done soon, people in this Country will begin to take up arms against our own government for neglecting the constituents they promise to represent. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/25/2008 7:56:58 PM | I want to point out a few things. First off I am hispanic. My family has been US citizens for many generations. My brother is married to a women who was born in Mexico. Her family came to the US when she was little. I know many people who are of mexican descent and even have dated several who were from mexico originally. I do not nor will I ever support the removal of legal residents to this country. The group of people that is most hurt by illegals in this country are not american citizens it is the legal resident. They are the ones who have to live with the stigma of their law breaking county men. They are the ones who would normally be doing the work that illegals now do. NOT as someone pointed out, other illegals. Legal aliens . I have also never claimed that we should deport all the illegals. But in the last bill that was attempted to be passed there was an amendment that was killed that would have required that all criminals who were arrested for other crimes be deported. Our elected leaders couldnt even pass that amendment. I think the answer is like i said earlier, fine the employers and deport all those who refuse to either sign up for legal status or who commit other crimes. Those who stay should pay a fine, they did break the law. Then all those who are only out to improve their lives will have a way to do so, and those who want to continuely break our laws can go. And those who sign up for legal status should not be allowed to jump any line for citizenship either. That isnt fair to those who try to use the system legally. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/25/2008 10:01:29 PM | So Dragonpatwhat do we do?
How do we crunch the numbers to allow 12-14 million (low estimate according to some) illegal aliens to become legal immigrants?
Do we cut off the influx of doctors, scientists, engineers, computer technicians and designers from Asia, India, and other countries for an undetermined time to account for these workers who can replaced by anyone and do work that unskilled Americans will do (contrary to some people's belief)? Or do we just open up the gates and say, aww hell, everybody can just come on in? Is this fair to those who worked hard to get here? Is this fair to those born here?
Do we allow illegal aliens the right to full citizenship (which would only be fair, as we are now taxing them, right?), meaning if they tire of working those crappy jobs and decide to take jobs Americans "will work" is that okay? Or will they be able to say "Screw this, I'm an American now" and jump on welfare or unemployment like too many of our already lazy American non-workers do? Do they start getting credit they can never pay for with their shiny new social security numbers and run up a tab that bankrupts the banks, or will they not be allowed to do things like that? If they are, who's to say they won't cash out those credit lines and run back home? Will they still have to live 10-15 to a house or will they go get governemt subsidies to buy their own creating housing shortages in large cities and then when they get tired of it all they sell it under a fictious name, and by the time it's found out, they are long gone?
Do we test these illegal aliens for diseases that aren't epidemics here yet run rampant in other countries but would be making a comeback in the U.S. due to the illegal aliens? Do we given them psychological exams to see if they are all there? Physicals, to see if they are going to burden on our welfare system in the future even if they aren't now? If the answer is yes (and it should be yes) who foots the bill for it?
Surely you realise that if they continue with the wages they make as illegals they will be elligible as citizens for ADC, SSI, possibly food stamps, and any other number of aid that is already overabused by our own citizens now.
I know a lot of people run around with these rose colored glasses saying, nah, it'll never happen, but............we just don't know do we? | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/26/2008 6:28:21 AM | Dragonpat,
I am in total agreement with the ideas that you posted in the last entry you made in this thread. There is no good practical reason why all undocumented workers should be deported. People need to start learning about the different reasons that cause people from other lands to come to work in this country. Those reasons, once well understood, can help us here to see some differences, and hopefully shape our attitudes.
Manerider,
Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of time to get into repeating my arguments about this issue. I have recognized that the undocumented workers are here illegally, but I have tried to point to you and others that just because they crossed the border without permission doesn't make them the hardened criminals that you are painting them as. Those people who came to work in order to survive and are not commiting violent crimes, trafficking drugs, etc., are not the same as those who do commit those crimes. But, just to save some time in this discussion, let's say that I accept your branding all the "illegal aliens" from Mexico, who are the ones that you are having most trouble with (if we take into account your posting in message #230 in this thread) as criminals, or "illegal felons," as you called them in your last post, and you would like to go after them because they are just that: criminals, felons. I would ask you why are you promoting such a selective policy of enforcement against crime? My view is that the undocumented workers is only a fraction of the whole criminal activity that is actually going on related to the issue, and I have written on this thread about those problems. Why don't we go after the greedy employers, the hospital administrators that illegally inflate the numbers in order to get hefty re-imbursements from the government, etc.? Are some felons less felonious than other felons? Would that be because of the reasons that you stated in message #230?: "They live like slobs, ....... and bring down the otherwise high standards that Americans, and even other latinos, keep." Man, you forgot to mention their body odor to complete the picture!
I remember that those were the same reasons given back when the white Americans started moving out of the urban centers as the black Americans were moving into them.
We must be careful with what we say, even though we are hurting. We will overcome this situation, and if we don't allow the voices of hatred and racism to carve out our hearts for their own profits, we will be prouder for having sustained high our American values.
So, I don't agree with the blanket statement that they are all "felons." I said that it is not practical, nor wise, nor moral, to go on a campaign of wholesale deportation because they are criminals, when as a matter of fact many other criminals are getting a pass. That doesn't mean that I am proposing an open border. The government should be in control of the border, fence or no fence (but I guess the contractors and the ones awarding the contract would prefer the fence,) perhaps controlling better the corrupt immigration officials that work with the coyotes, including those immigration officials that are profitting from their alliance with the Chamber of Commerce. The undocumented workers from Mexico are one piece of this puzzle. There are plenty of others from Central American countries, even from South America. Most of the "illegals" here we I live are from Brazil and Eastern European countries, who came as exchange students (but actually they came to work, not to study) and they are overstaying their visas.
Mane, I know you asked me about other points, and personals reasons for the ideas that I hold. If you really want me to address them, let me know and I will try to answer another time when I am not so rushed for time. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/26/2008 7:53:24 AM | Yep! I have met and seen plenty of whites that are illegal in this country. I once dated a chick from the Chezch Republic who came here on a work permit and overstayed her visa. I told her that she was here illegally and she said that she knew that.
In Iowa there was a rather large immigration bust on on people from Somalia (Africa) who were here illegally and I know of certain there is a large illegal population here from the former Yugoslavia (Europe) here in the states right now.
The media has brainwashed the American public to beleiving that illegals are all Mexican people and we have learned to accept that....lol!
I bet you that most Eastern Europeans here in the states are illegal....they just blend in because they look white...lol!
Trust me there are plenty of poor and destitute white nations in Europe that I can say for sure are Sh*t holes. I seen plenty of them. Lived in Europe for over six years while stationed in the Army.
Don't let the white run media fool ya! | |
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NERO1
| Joined: 3/8/2008 Msg: 260 | |
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/26/2008 9:02:48 AM | ^^ Well....they do and they don't blend in. Here in Chicago, there are tons of Poles, Russians, etc, from the former Soviet countries, and to be honest they're not really making (many of them) much of an effort to "Americanize" or blend in. My dad and his parents and brother, etc, when they all came here from Italy back around '60 or thereabouts, they tried hard to kind of fit in. But these immigrants nowadays, and again I stress this applies just as much to the Caucasian/Easterner as to the central American Mexican (or Mexican-Indian), are really not making much effort.
As I said, here in Chicago you go to certain areas on the northwest side and all the bar and deli names look like the letters on those vision tests the eye doctors give you, and they all just walk around on cell phones through the stores, etc, talking loudly in Slavic languages, making no effort apparently to speak the local tongue.... for that matter, Spanish (given world history) is much more "at home", so to speak, in this hemisphere than Polish or Russian ever was.
And yes, many of the Easterners are here illegally after having overstayed 1-yr visas and such, it's a fact. That was why so many Poles were marching here with Mexicans in the mass rallies we had back when they were talking about making illegal immigrants automatic felons. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/26/2008 3:27:08 PM | Tranquil, The undocumented illegals are felons. I don't know how else to clarify that fact for you. As for felons, there's lots of felonies that fall under non-violent crimes, such as drug possession, car theft, burglary. You don't have to violently act out on others, through rape or murder, to earn a felony. And I really haven't the time, nor a desire, to repeat my POV's on the subject, either. Just scroll up. You seem to want to just overstep the legality of those illegals actions, which definately makes my ears perk up. Lawd knows, we've had a few of those posting here. Just forgive those hard working, non-violent illegals as they parade around on our soil, because they've not done anything criminal..... well, except for breaking into our Country.
When work was flourishing, I had little concern for the influx of illegals, and if that includes white euro descendants, well so be it. I recall trying to bid a job from a Chech guy who showed up in a brand new monster box truck, the kind you see furniture delivered in, his thick eastern block tongue quite uncommon in these parts. But he was in charge, apparently made lots of money, and offered his work mainly to mexicans, based on the dirt cheap prices he expected of me. He had a world of people to do the cheap labor, not the union quality workmanship I provided. But the homeowners didnt' know any better, and they see dollar signs for using the foreigner. They were sold a bag of goods that will soon be worthless, based on my professional knowledge, and the protocol this outfit wanted accomplished. I simply won't do shit work, and refused the work, based on the poor quality protocol, as well as the cheap labor they expected. But that's what's destroying our infrastructure, not to mention, the homeowners will be replacing their new floor within a few years. Simple as that.
Trying to move the subject of illegal aliens over to hospital workers falsifying documents doesn't work either. If the hospitals were doctoring up (no pun intended) reports, they wouldn't be going out of business. That's a no brainer, and if' you've got documentation to that effect, you've wasted a lot of time thusfar by not illustrating it.
When you try to dissuade the arguement by suggesting other people are getting away with crimes, I'd like to see urls' or statistics that bare out these truths you mention. But I assure you, there are no where near 12 million felons just walking the streets, unless you are accounting for illegal immigrants. The fact is, legal residents, native people, and people who aren't under aliases in this Country, are quite easy to find, and there is very little the government doesn't get a hand on in order to prosecute them. That's a big part of the problem- native American citizens and legal residents ARE held to every degree of law, while illegal citizens are allowed to simply get away with their felonies, and if caught, are often released. If charges pending are going to Court, they just leave the Country or find a new alias name to operate under. There's no secret here. It's just that our governement has chosen to disregard their actions. But for every action, there is a reaction, and while this subject has garnered very little attention in Washington, it eventually will. People are going to rise up and fight the system that is betraying them. Notice, I'm not saying we'll be fighting the illegals, per se, we'll be fighting our own government, for they are just as much responsible for these felons as the actual criminals (illegals). In many ways, it's much a conspiracy on the American people.
I realize the corruption goes as high up as the Chambers of Commerce, and probably higher up in Washington DC, too, but that's not surprising, and those people will eventually get their just due, too. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/26/2008 3:48:16 PM | manerider,
Looks like the decisions been taken that this problem needs sorting eh!. Mind if I ask a few questions on the detail of this uprising?.
a) What type of fighting of your government can we expect, the ballot box, the gun and the ballot box or even just the gun?
b) What do you think America will be like afterwards?. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/26/2008 5:52:33 PM | I was asked what to do, do we grant a blanket amnesty and or just open up all the gates, and so on...... NO I looked at the groups that are in this nation. Those who wish to add to this country, yes they are felons, as MAINE has pointed out, but as with other criminals, there should be a way for them to pay their debt. My answer is fine them. Make them pay a real fine... not this 250 bs fine that was once proposed. The did commit a crime, so make them pay. Now those who are willing to pay, they dont become citizens, they become legal... As for those who dont report and pay the fine, deportation when caught or jail... crime is crime... And we stop the flood by fining the heck out of employers. Make them use the federal database before hiring and when we catch them breaking the law repeatedly, we simply fine them out of business or pull the business lisc. The idea of forcing the business to crack down and be responsible is actually working. I read that in AZ they are doing this and actually had their southern mexican state come up to complain about all the people that were leaving the US and going back to mexico.,. That state wasnt prepared for the numbers involved. Self deportation will work, if the incentive is no longer present. Oh and while this is happening actually work on doing what is humane and enforce the border, so that the lost illegals wont die in the southern deserts. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/26/2008 6:36:41 PM | There are lots the American people can do about illegal immigration. The best way is by starting at its grass roots level. Every day people like me and you.
The peopleof Cobb Co. Georgia got fet up with illegals and they petitioned legislature that passed the Bill SB529 that had illegals literally deporting themselves. Although it was not the answer it was a start. It gets the message across!
The problem is that we get too lazy and to comfortable in our own surroundings that it's easier to **** and complain about the problem then to do something about it. If enough people raised enough racus I'm sure the politicians would gain our favor. Afterall they are always in favor of the largest vote...right!
You can also call I.C.E 866 341-3458 if you suspect employers hiring illegals. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/26/2008 9:06:37 PM |
You can also call I.C.E 866 341-3458 if you suspect employers hiring illegals. Good point. Looks like someone did, and the feds have finally broke ground. Largest immigration bust in American History
http://my.att.net/s/editorial.dll?pnum=1&bfromind=7401&eeid=6058066&_sitecat=1522&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=-2&ck=&ch=ne&rg=blsadstrgt
Here are some excerpts
The largest single-workplace immigration raid in U.S. history has caused panic among Hispanic families in this small southern Mississippi town, where federal agents rounded up nearly 600 plant workers suspected of being in the country illegally.
One worker caught in Monday's sweep at the Howard Industries transformer plant said fellow workers applauded as immigrants were taken into custody. Federal officials said a tip from a union member prompted them to start investigating several years ago.
Fabiola Pena, 21, cradled her 2-year-old daughter as she described a chaotic scene at the plant as the raid began, followed by clapping.
"I was crying the whole time. I didn't know what to do," Pena said. "We didn't know what was happening because everyone started running. Some people thought it was a bomb but then we figured out it was immigration."
About 100 of the 595 detained workers were released for humanitarian reasons, many of them mothers who were fitted with electronic monitoring bracelets and allowed to go home to their children, officials said.
About 475 other workers were transferred to a U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement facility in Jena, La. Nine who were under 18 were transferred to the custody of the Office of Refugee Resettlement.
John Foxworth, an attorney representing some of the immigrants, said eight appeared in federal court in Hattiesburg on Tuesday because they face criminal charges for allegedly using false Social Security and residency identification.
He said the raid was traumatic for families.
"There was no communication, an immediate loss of any kind of news and a lack of understanding of what's happening to their loved ones," he said. "A complete and utter feeling of helplessness." Well, guess what. It isn't the first time someone arrested for felony left others with feelings of helplessness. Duh. That's what happens when the law finally catches up to you.
Roberto Velez, pastor at Iglesia Cristiana Peniel, where an estimated 30 to 40 percent of the 200 parishioners were caught up in the raid, said parents were afraid immigration officials would take them.
"They didn't send their kids to school today," he said. "How scared is that?"
Those detained were from Brazil, El Salvador, Germany, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Panama, and Peru, said Barbara Gonzalez, an ICE spokeswoman.
Elizabeth Alegria, 26, a Mexican immigrant, was working at the plant Monday when ICE agents stormed in. When they found out she has two sons, ages 4 and 9, she was fitted with a bracelet and told to appear in federal court next month. Her husband, Andres, was not so lucky.
"I'm very traumatized because I don't know if they are going to let my husband go and when I will see him," Elizabeth Alegria said through a translator Tuesday as she returned to the Howard Industries parking lot to retrieve her sport utility vehicle.
"We have kids without dads and pregnant mothers who got their husbands taken away," said Velez's son, Robert, youth pastor at the church. "It was like a horror story. They got handled like they were criminals."
Howard Industries is in Mississippi's Pine Belt region, known for commercial timber growth and chicken processing plants. The tech company produces dozens of products ranging from electrical transformers to medical supplies, according to its Web site.
Gonzalez said agents had executed search warrants at both the plant and the company headquarters in nearby Ellisville. She said no company executives had been detained, but this is an "ongoing investigation and yesterday's action was just the first part."
Let's hope they fine or imprison the employers as well.
This (vvvv) is where the employer smears begin.
A woman at the Ellisville headquarters told The Associated Press on Tuesday that no one was available to answer questions.
In a statement to the Laurel Leader-Call newspaper, Howard Industries said the company "runs every check allowed to ascertain the immigration status of all applicants for its jobs."
"It is company policy that it hires only U.S. citizens and legal immigrants," the statement said.
Gov. Haley Barbour recently signed a law requiring Mississippi employers to use a U.S. Homeland Security system to check new workers' immigration status. Evidence that Homeland Security(^^^^^) is a fiasco, a farce, and a joke.
The law took effect July 1 for businesses with state contracts and takes effect Jan. 1 for other businesses. Mississippi lawmakers once used laptops made by Howard Industries, but it's not clear whether the company has current state contracts.
Under the law, a company found guilty of employing illegal immigrants could lose public contracts for three years and the right to do business in Mississippi for one year.
The law also makes it a felony for an illegal immigrant to accept a job in Mississippi. A message was left with the district attorney's office after hours seeking comment on whether he would use the law to bring state charges against Howard Industries or the workers.
The Mississippi raid is one of several nationwide in recent years.
On May 12, federal immigration officials swept into Agriprocessors, the nation's largest kosher meatpacking plant, in Iowa. Nearly 400 workers were detained and dozens of fraudulent permanent resident alien cards were seized from the plant's human resources department, according to court records. In December 2006, 1,297 were arrested at Swift meatpacking plants in Nebraska and five other states.
Godspeed. Bum, looks like the FED's heard the call to arms and caved in, finally. Aren't ya happy now?  | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/27/2008 8:49:14 AM | ^^^^^^^^ "Those detained were from Brazil, El Salvador, Germany, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Panama, and Peru, said Barbara Gonzalez, an ICE spokeswoman."
Mane,
that must have been a great surprise for you! People suspected of being "illegal aliens" coming from so many countries, even from Germany! Wait a second, you mean they are not all from Mexico? Aren't you going to question the report that you just posted? Because, to me, that is just proving that you have been a little bit one-sided in this discussion.
I don't have a problem with the raids being carried out by responsible agencies of our government, although I am not totally convinced of their effectiveness because I haven't seen much evidence of the government's willingness to enforce the part of the law that punish the employers for breaking the law.
I do have a problem with people like Lou Dobbs, scapegoating the undocumented workers, even though I recognize that they are here illegally. I disagree with that attitude because it doesn't emphasize enough, for my taste at least, all the criminal activities perpetrated by employers, government officials, and assorted type of criminals that prey on the vulnerable and mostly uneducated people that come here as the last chance for their survival. Why just sensationalize a case of an illegal alien from Mexico and not rally the people around the need to change the system that allows the current situation to continue, in spite of a few raids to catch illegal aliens, and a few prosecutions of corrupt individuals?
Since you asked me to provide you with links that prove my point regarding the corruption involving hospital fraud by providing links, I have posted just two of them, so you can finally acknowledge that there is reason to doubt the patriotic reasons of the "get tough with the felons" crowd. Unless "felons" means Mexicans, then they really want to get tough, and call for the masses: "let's go get them. It's them or us."
Maybe this time you will be a little bit more willing to recognize that all isn't so black and white when it comes to mess that we have right now. There are a lot of character and shades in this issue, and some characters are more shady than others. http://www.nysun.com/national/fbi-arrests-hospital-executives-for-medicare-fraud/83312/
http://whistleblower.labovick.com/2008/02/articles/whistleblower-articles/health-care-fraud/medicare-fraud/regional-hospital-accused-of-medicare-fraud-by-us-attorney/
By the way, that thing that you do, telling people that they don't have a point because they don't post links, is not the best strategy for the discussion. Some of us come here to discuss our opinions in an honest manner, and we speak based on ideas formed by having been exposed to information that is available to the public. All you would have to do is google the topic. In this case you would type "hospital fraud" and you would get more than what you need to know. You would be amazed that you would find a link to the U.S. GAO, which I trust to have factual information.
Lastly, I am not trusting those calling for an up-rise against the government because of its inability to deal with the issue. I see more of a problem with the unwillingness of the current administration to really enforce the existing laws. Those calling for the people to revolt against the government while at the same time are mostly scapegoating the undocumented workers should understand that they are creating an environment where the mob will strike against the easiest target, and that is not the government, but the people who don't have the means to defend themselves, don't speak or read the language of those who would do them harm, and are easily identifiable because of their physical appearance. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/27/2008 9:04:16 AM | .
How many suits were taken in????
These companies use Staffing agencies........... If they get fined will they ever pay?
Its time ICE went back to Swift... check out the New Hires.
Monford --(they sold to swift) used to call for raids to avoid paying attendance bonuses to illegals...... | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/27/2008 9:20:12 AM | We have kids without dads and pregnant mothers who got their husbands taken away," said Velez's son, Robert, youth pastor at the church. "It was like a horror story. They got handled like they were criminals."
The telling point here is they were treated like ciminals... wonder why? Maybe because they were criminals.... they broke the law. In any other crime, would there be an attitude that we should allow the mother to return to the children and then have them show up in court in a month? Would anyone worrie or cry that a murder was arrested and his pregnate wife was left with out her husband? | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/27/2008 9:56:50 AM | ^^^^^^
Dragonpat,
Ithink that equating crossing the borger illegally to work in this country with murder is not what I would say, although I recognize that you are entitled to your opinion. Murderer, in my opinion, is the type of criminal that doesn't deserve simpathy; however, in our judicial system, people who commit lesser crimes receive a more humane treatment, depending on level of seriousness of their crime. People are allowed to remain free after posting bail, and some are freed on their own recognizance, which means that they don't have to post bail, until they are found guilty in a court of law. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/27/2008 10:55:14 AM | . Illegal entry breaks a Civil Law... U.S. Code : Title 8 : Section 1325.. That is why you send the mother home...
It is Not criminal.
It is Criminal to employ an illegal.....
This is like writing tickets at a street race for the spectators jaywalking..........
IT WOULD NOT SLOW THE RACERS DOWN.......
Enforce the laws... the criminal ones.. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/27/2008 2:57:57 PM | Tranquil, Right off the bat, you make the assumption that I presume all illegal aliens to be only mexican, which is incorrect and improper, thank you very much. If I haven't made this clear for you, I'll repaste my comments from a previous post since you obviously didn't capture what I wrote. Needless to say, there is a lot to be said for the comprehension aspect of reading comprehension.
manerider)If they have obtained legal status, through legal means, we welcome them. It IS that simple, regardless of WHAT Country they are home to. Needlss to say, for those who are illegal, we care not what their country of origin is. You feel me? They need to go and the employers who give them the success they have should be jailed.
Tranquil, I fail to see your POV. Explain in simple terms why Dobbs is scapegoating undocumented workers. He is simply exposing the truth. There's nothing about truth and facts that are even closely resembing scapegoatism. We agree, at least, that our government should criminalize the employers, too. I understand a big raid in a Dalton Ga carpet factory was fined and people were jailed, but that's been a year or better and you'd have to google it all. Back to the raid, though, I realize other countries illegal aliens were represented, other than mexico's, but I'm sure you, or anyone, would have to acknowledge that, percentage wise, there are exponentially more mexicans that are ilegal aliens than the other countries, yes? In fact, there are probably more mexicans than all the other countries combined. (Their geographical advantage is notwithstanding. ) I believe Iv'e repeatedly stated that government should act accordingly, and do routine checks to make sure people here are legal. If not, they get to go home, regardless of the country they're from and regardless of the consequences and sense of hopelessness they might endure. Life's tough, I know. And I've had my inside look at the inner workings of our courts, family courts, and judicial branch of government, and I must say, it looks scary for Americans.There is no bigger crooked business than our own government. AND,...... AND, it is illegal, yes, (felonies are not civil matters) we should also expose the crooked companies, and do everything possible to run them out of business, jail them, and MAKE ROOM for the honest, upstanding, and repectable business people who are having their legs cut out from under them as a result of these shady, illegal practices and criminal business people, from small business to corporate giants. I'm held to every possible limit of the law, so tell me...why shouldn't the illegals? Do you feel these people should be allowed graces under the eyes of our law and lawmakers, that we should treat them any better than I will be treated if I break the law? That's the tone I take from our communications, that we need to show more pity to illegals, perhaps even primarily to mexicans, due to their poor homelife. But I don't. If I crossed illegally, into another country ( as in a passport, and possibly VISA requirements) I would be detained and forced to leave almost immediately, if not jailed, tried, and convicted of trespassing. Yet, some people here think that we, in America, should somehow endure this pracitice and absorb whatever cost incurred. I say bullshit. I dont' care what article you pulled up for rebuttal on hospitals, (although I will read them) I've seen the evidence I need, I have friends who are hospital workers, (doctors, nurses) and I talk to people in my travels enough to know the truth. I happen to know, by virtue of communications with people in many states, that the foreign uninsured people are a major problem and the overwhelming country they mention is mexico. I once had a small business owner in california gain access to my business number, and called to find out how work was here; they were wanting to leave california, because in california, where she was from, the insured patients could not get treatment because....... so many mexican people were in line ahead of them. They were looking at a 12-24 hour wait to see a doctor. That's pathetic. And the people waiting for treatment, according to her, were largely "hispanic", to quote her. The truth is, hospitals are not ethical communes of people, they are just as capable of doing wrong as any other big business, but it's farcical to insinuate that many hospital closings are not due to being overloaded with mexican and fellow latinos or illegals at large, even from Germany. Strongdad posted links showing the numbers of hospital closings, all of which were overrun with patients that refused to pay, and the vast majority of those non-payers were mexican, but since strong closed his account, those post are no longer available. Regardless of the actual numbers, they are causing insurance costs to go up. It's just that simple. People who actually buy insurances (ahem) wind up paying the additional cost's through higher premiums. Yep. I have a brother who studied actuarial sciences (those that underwrite insurance companies) and I know this to be true. Fair? No it's erroneously unfair. But that's how it is. It's no big secret.
Lastly, I am not trusting those calling for an up-rise against the government because of its inability to deal with the issue. I see more of a problem with the unwillingness of the current administration to really enforce the existing laws. Those calling for the people to revolt against the government while at the same time are mostly scapegoating the undocumented workers should understand that they are creating an environment where the mob will strike against the easiest target, and that is not the government, but the people who don't have the means to defend themselves, don't speak or read the language of those who would do them harm, and are easily identifiable because of their physical appearance. We at least agree the current administration is laying down on this, and I am certain we need change. But we've got, at minimum, 4 months before anything is going to be done. But, the raids, and (hopefully) charges aginst the companies and/or owners who are backstabbing other business owners, will continue. And quite frankly, if they were doing this already people wouldn't be threatening that their going to take action. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/27/2008 5:35:30 PM | Mane,
I fairly sure that my reading comprehension of your postings is very good. I would suggest that you read what you have written so far, and if you don't agree that you have been centering yor comments almost exclusively on Mexicans. But if you don't agree will leave at that. All I meant by calling your attention to that aspect of your postings is that it looks like an obsession with the Mexicans. I will grant you that the greater percentage of undocumented workers is most likely from Mexico, but i take exception to some comments that remind me of times past in the history of our country.
If you haven't understood my point of view is perhaps I have been emphasizing the idea that the issue is quite complicated and we must take all its aspects into account when forming an opinion. Basically what ia have been saying is that the country needs to enforce the existing laws. I have no problem with the government agencies carrying out their duties. I wished they would do more enforcement, especially against those that are profitting from the system, and that they would a better job of policing against corruption within the government itself. I am not asking for special graces for anybody. What I object to is the campaign for singling out the crimes of illegal entry into the country when the other crimes go mostly ignored. I keep on asking why some poster promote that agenda, and I haven't seen a convincing answer yet. I even asked if some felons are less felonious than other felons, but the questions seems to have been ignored. I have knowledge and life experiences that give me a sound understanding of the side of the undocumented workers, and yes, personally I am inclined to feel compassion for the honest workers, but I am not demanding that everybody should feel the same. Each one of us has a heart and mind, and we behave according to their dictates. What I object to is the type of discourse that, by focusing almost exclusively on the undocumented workers, ends up being practically a scapegoating campaign, and I have explained that if you lead the uneducated masses down that road, then you are creating an environment fostering hate and racism.
I will always try to help people understand that we may be going in the wrong path. I can't do much more at my age. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/27/2008 6:05:33 PM | To the person who said illegal entry is not criminal, anyone who enters illegally is guilty of a federal crime. Actually though, first time illegal entry is a civil violation, but still a violation of federal law, making it a federal crime. The second and all further illegal entries by a person are all felonies. http://www.cairco.org/legal/legal.html | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/27/2008 6:15:57 PM |
People are allowed to remain free after posting bail, and some are freed on their own recognizance, which means that they don't have to post bail, until they are found guilty in a court of law.
Tranquillo, American citizens are allowed to remain free on bail or remain free on their own recognizance under certain conditions. Some of those are: (1) actually being an American citizen with a permanent verifiable residence or even a past history to show the courts you are trustworthy to return (2) shown not to be a "flight" risk (which also includes running to another state) (3) shown not to be a danger to themselves or anyone else (4) seriousness of the crime (in this case a crime you think is relatively harmless/victimless, but one many people see as quite serious).
How many of these illegal aliens, seeing as how nobody really knows who they are and what they'll do, are actually going to return for any hearings. How many of them can verify who they are or how long they've been here? All you'd see are the skid marks of their workboots. They would just pick up and move to another area and start all over again. Most illegals don't travel real heavy and since most of them send most of what they make back to where ever, they don't have a lot to hold them back from doing so. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have Posted: 8/27/2008 6:49:11 PM | And doesn't the fact the the legal workers in that place were cheering tell you something? They, like a lot of us, are sick of this mess too. And if that plant doesn't get shut down because of their stupid employers, now maybe some more legal workers can go and get some jobs at that place, because the article shows that Americans will do the same jobs that illegal aliens do.
Then if it starts happening all over the country....watch the unemployment numbers drop, watch the ecomony pick up, and watch the Americans do the jobs that everyone said they wouldn't do. Because anyone with a family to feed will pick hard work for next to nothing over a welfare check that is less than next to nothing.
Oh, and a felony is a felony is a felony. I don't see any being ignored, except that one about employers hiring illegal workers. But if they stop ignoring that one, you won't have anyone to complain about being scapegoated will you? They kind of go hand in hand. | |
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