|
|
|
|
|
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/27/2008 7:20:25 PM | | tranquilo, you are right that in some cases people are given differnent treatment, But last time i checked ror and bail was handed out by a judge, not by law enforcement. Futher more i am not seriously tyring to equate murder with illegal alien. You are correct that the severity of the crimes are a lot differnt. If you notice in my posts I advocate fines for illegals, i would never advocate fines for murders. What i took exception too was in other felon crimes, no one ever writes an article with lines like that one decrying the inhumanitiy of the situation that a criminal was arrested and left their families. In no other crime that i know of do people get ror with out first going to see a judge. I may be wrong, if I am I will gladdly admit my error. | |
|
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/27/2008 7:30:20 PM | Finally, the idea that since we do not crack down on other felonies and are making illegals into a scapegoat situation i find a silly argument. I agree first off that many felonies occur in this nation every day. I further will point out that the primary purpose of government is to protect the people, but failure in one area of enforcement should never be an excuse for failure in another. That would be like well we dont catch and punish all the bank robbers, so lets not worrie about the murders.
I do not scape goat the illegals. They are an added expense to this nation that it should not have to be burdend with. I find it funny that this nation actually has the discussion of what to do about them when other countries dont. They arrest imprision and then deport. I do want the issue delt with humainly, that is why i have suggested many times the methods i have suggested, fine the employers and such.
But the idea that we shouldnt do anything about it or worrie too much over how human things may seem isnt being fair or humain to the people of this nation. | |
|
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/28/2008 7:15:06 AM | ^^^^^ I don't have many problems with most of your opinions on this issue. The one thing that you are overlooking is that the issue is not just undocumented workers that immigrate illegally. The issue of their presence here shouldn't be ignored, and I agree that we have to deal with it. At the same time, the causes and reasons why they are shouldn't be ignored either, and we should deal with the at the same time. Not prosecuting the employers who are the magnets that bring the undocumented workers will leave the system pretty much intact, no matter how many raids are carried out against the undocumented workers. As long as the only measures that are enforced are those directed at the undocumented workers, allowing the employers to keep on profitting, then I think I am correct in saying that what is being done and proposed by many here is scapegoating the most vulnerable people in this issue. If you don't care about them because they are not Americans, I am not going to force you to do so. I can accept that many Americans don't care about non-Americans. I see the undocumented workers (not the illegal aliens who come to commit violent crimes or to traffic drugs, or simply to take advantage of the welfare system) as human beings who have come here to try to survive, perhaps as the last, or only chance to do so.
And once more I suggest that we take into account that we are not hearing any voices here coming from those people to defend themselves. That may be the reason why so many can keep on going with their campaign of wholesale deportation, possibly carried out by uncontrolled mobs. Scapegoating may lead into feeling that it is ok. to punish the culprits of our troubles, exacting revenge against those people that we don't like. I am not carrying the torch for them because I am an illegal alien or an undocumented worker, as it was suggested in a previous post. In these forums I am most likely the closest that you are going to get to the people that you are speaking against. I was an immigrant, not the child of an immigrant. I came by myself, having been recruited to come to teach Spanish at a University in the Midwest. Soon after I arrived here my country of origin was turned from an evolving democracy into one of the most savage, fascist dictatorships that were ruled by the military in Latin America during the 1970s. That sent a huge wave of people who went seeking asylum all over the world. Many of them had to immigrate illegally, because some countries like the USA, refused to accept them. Most of my friends that didn't go into exile were hunted and killed because they had been students during the sixties, and they had the dream that one day the country would be a better place for the children of those people who never had the chance to get an education, those people who were working in the fields or the manual laborers in the cities. That flourishing democracy was destroyed courtesy of the government of our country (USA) that financed, along with several American corporations, the coup d'etat against the democratically elected government. That destroyed the country that I knew, and left many people like me without a place to call "my" country. To all those Americans here that are railing against the "illegal aliens" without thinking, even for a minute, about the reasons why so many people come here to try to survive I would suggest that you think, and try to learn about the displacement of people in the Latin American countries resulting from the involvement of American corporations, backed by the goverment and the military forces of the USA. That has been one of the reasons why so many people have been coming to work, and literally, to survive.
Why are so many people from Mexico, peasants from Mexico, coming now into the USA? Have you ever heard of NAFTA? Have you ever seen footage of, or read anything about, the rebellion of indigenous people of Chiapas against the Mexican government on the first day that NAFTA went into effect?
We can complaint about the disaster that NAFTA has been for us in the USA, but if you learn about the effect that it is having on the indigenous people in Mexico, those people who don't have any other skills besides farming to support their families, then you will know why so many people come to work in the fields in the USA. NAFTA opened wide the doors to greed in Mexico. One of the things that those who wanted to profit from the opportunities presented by NAFTA have done, was to evict the poor indian peasants from their lands so that the new entrepreneurs could use them to harvest the crops that they would sell to American corporations that would profit from bringing cheap fruits and vegetables from there, not only during our winter here, but pretty much all year round.
There is a lot more that I could tell you about the reasons why people are coming here illegally, but those who would want everybody to stand in line waiting for their number to come up are not very realistic. And if people tell me, well we are Americans, and we don't care about any of that, all I can say, I am an American too, and I care, and I know why I care. | |
|
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/28/2008 7:50:10 AM | Okay NAFTA is and was a disaster for the U.S. and Mexico. Moreso Mexico maybe, but why does that given their workers the right the right to come here and wreck our already flailing economy?
Don't you understand that while, yes, our economy is a bit better, and these people from other countries are here looking for their last chance at survival (I really don't think it's that extreme, but you may be right) but the bottom line is our economy cannot continue to sustain these people. Don't you understand that eventually our economy will be in the same shape as theirs? 1% of the United States will be rich moguls and 99% will be poverty sticken. The tides are turing the way, slowly, but noticeably.
Until you look at the big picture
(1) it is bigger than your sympathy for these people
(2) weather or not fairness is being carrying or not it's more important to stop it
(3) that these people aren't bringing up standards in this country--they are lowering them
(4) they cause many undue hardships to our legal residents (covered before)
(5) they increase costs to our legal residents (also covered before)
(6) most people really don't want illegal aliens (across the board, not picking and choosing which ones should be called that) here, some not at all, but most, like me would welcome them if they go through the proper channels to acquire legal citizenship
Yes legal citizenship is hard, you surely must know that. And there are limits on those allowed to do it. For a good reason, to help control the economy and to be able to get people who are going to help the country, not drag it down.
Tranquillo, I'm sorry we don't see eye to eye on this, but we never will, so it is really not a debate anymore, it's arguing back and forth the same points over and over. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. We both know there is a problem though, and time will tell what version gets played out eventually. | |
|
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/28/2008 10:16:15 AM | So.. Let me get this straigh Mr ready. According to You, We should allow ONLY people That come here legally. Well!! That is something.!! Just to remind You, The perpetrators of the september 11 stunt, WERE HERE LEGALLY!!!! and in top of that, some of them were even GIVEN SCHOLARSHIPS AS TO LEARN HOW TO FLY !!! Isn' t that really somethng..?? Legal or illegal immigration is a problem, no matter how You see it. Someone said earlier that other people that came to this country in ships, did so "legally" . Well, I have not been able to find any documents that prove that the people that arrived in the MAYFLOWER or thereafter, had a passaport. I do not think that MY ANCESTORS had a "pilgrim immigration office" there to stamp their passaports. Some people here said that illegals are 99.99% Mexicans. I beg to differ, even us native americans get confussed for mexicans because of the color of our skin. And that shows me that there is still a lot of racism in this coutry. And I AM SICK AND TIRED OF IT!!! I know a lot of people who are "illegals" and I am proud that some of them call me friend. And as far as I am concerned, they pay their dues. Rent, bills, food, AND TAXES. YEAHP...!! THEY DO!! The only difference is that they can not fill out a tax return. Which makes me wonder WHERE IS ALL THAT MONEY?? . I HAVE SEEN THEIR paycheks and I KNOW THEY PAY TAXES..!! True, maybe some of them work for cash. But that does not mean that all of them do that. I have myself worked for cash sometimes. And one last thing, some of yOu say that being "illegal" in the US is a felony. Can someone please show me where in the FEDERAL LAW says that..?? I checked and I could not find anything. I am not condone not condemning them! I am not advocating for anything. But if We are going to be fair. let's start with our own problems. Yes, We should get rid of all the "illegals". Which makes me wonder what would happen in some areas, specially farming. Because meanwhile some "farmers" are being subsidiazed, ( just ask the Bushes' , the Waltons, the Warners, The Hunts or the Kennedy's) most farmers have to relay on them "illegals" to make ends meet. Which brings the question, How much would it cost to buy produce or other goods in the grocery store..?? It will shoot up almost 400%!!! And please, dont start that crap about giving You credible resources or cite a guys name or university so You can read it.!! The facts are all over the place... All you need is do You your own research, and have the math skills of a 4th grader... PEACE..  | |
|
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/28/2008 11:12:42 AM | Funny you said that....I'm sure the native American indians were once saying......Damn! Illegal immigration by these pesky Europeans are a problem on our land....lol!
Like I said before, I'm not a big proponent of illegal immigration irregardless of race. But let's not make it a racial issue. Hell! The Mexicans out west are pissed off by generations of racism caused by whites and they are doing something about it by their shear numbers and Academic studies and organizations.
Like I said. Stay away from racism....what comes around goes around!!
No one wins! | |
|
NERO1
|
Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 282 | |
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/28/2008 11:59:46 AM | Well, the thing is, a lot of Mexicans (and other central, and some south) Americans, ARE at least partly Native American. In a lot of cases, Mexicans and central Americans especially, it's physically obvious. The great "mixture" which occurred led to, IMO, some of the most beautiful people in the world, however the label "Latin" which has been being used on them since the 70's or so is a bit misleading, in a way.....essentially reflecting at base more like the culture that came over here on ships starting in 1492 and left its indelible prints (and of course a Latin/Romance language or two) all over much of this hemisphere.
Then of course the term "Hispanic" is confusing as it doesn't even reflect a race, per se, any more so than any other linguistic category does. The light-haired light-eyed European Spaniard and the Guatemalan or El Salvadoran of obviously predominantly Indian ancestry are both native Spanish speakers and thus are both "Hispanics". But clearly they're not the same race.
What the Mexicans and many other central Americans should, IMO, start to do is claim either just "Mixed Race" , or in some cases proudly claim their "Native American" heritage, along with or even sometimes instead of just saying "Hispanic".
It could put things into a bit of a different perspective when it is recalled that the
Native Americans, of whichever region or tribe or what-have-you, have been here for thousands and thousands of years, and the Mexican Indians' realm did extend into what is today the south and southwest. Therefore, many of them feel (and arguably they have a case) that their "blood", so to speak, is as much at home within certain geographical boundaries of the United States as would be any Mayflower American's .....perhaps even more so. | |
|
| |
| |
| |
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/28/2008 6:51:43 PM | "But....but...NAFTA was signed into law by Bill Clinton!"
oddandy,
it is time you start researching the subject. NAFTA was totally negotiated during the Republican administration of George H. Bush, the father of the current president. All that was done by Clinton was to sign the agreement ratified by congress. I don't blame Clinton for NAFTA. We were sold out by the Bush administration previous to Clinton. George H. Bush worked with Salinas, one of the most corrupt presidents that Mexico ever had, and Mulroney from Canada.
Bush, the father, and Salinas also cooperated in one of the biggest swindles that we have ever known, which was the the devaluation of the Mexican currency and the default by Mexico on the loans received from the USA. That caused one of the biggest financial crisis in the USA, with millions of Americans loosing their savings and pensions as many financial institutions were closed as a result of the Mexican default.
Were did all the money that was lost by American and Mexican citizens go?
Do you know why Salinas escaped from Mexico, and the last I heard was that he was living very comfortably in Ireland?
Why Americans never went after Bush, the father, for the catasthrophic financial disaster that he engineered, along with his partner, Salinas? My guess is that since he was thrown out of office people decided that all that business had been settled.
Salinas had to resort to assasination in order to silence his critics, and finally had to run away from the law in his country. George H. Bush got out pretty much scot-free.
And now, you try to throw some disinformation by blaming Clinton. You are not doing us any favors by posting without trying to inform. I would like to call you some names for that, but I am restraining myself because I don't want to give cause for this thread to be closed. | |
|
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/28/2008 8:08:24 PM | If I remember correctly most of the terorists were on expired visas. Meaning if the INS was doing it's job and cracking down, the whole thing may not have happened.
So in actually, there's reason number 47 to start getting down to business and start herding 'em up. | |
|
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/28/2008 8:59:25 PM | No. Mr ready, You are wrong again... or missinformed which could be even worse!!! ONLY 2 OF THEM WERE ON EXPIRED VISAS.... and from those 2, one of them got a scholarship awarded to him so he could go to an aviation school... 6 MONTHS A F T E R THE ATTTACKS.. !! So, yes.. You are right on something. because of the goverment policies that kind of thing happen. The stupid burocracy and the stupidity of the burocrats.. But that does not mean that ALL immigrants (legal or not) should be punished for those mistakes. Let's not forget OKLAHOMA, RUBY RIDGE, WACO... That alone tells me that something is wrong. And IT NEED TO BE FIXED.!! Just like the immigration policies. The system is broken and need to be fixed. So, your "reasons" don't have any valid ground whatsoever. Now, yes, we could probably start "herding' em up". But to what porpouse.?? I mean, really..!! What is the point.! As we see nowdays, they can go themselves if they can not find a job here on the US. So, that is the answer to Your question, PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!. So, yes, either the goverment brings them out of the shadows or stop giving them jobs. And if the latest happens, well, I don't know about You, but a great percentage of AMERICANS strugle to make ends meet., including me And getting rid of them in that fashion is going to put a big burden upon our shoulders. The cost of living will increment for almost 300% in the first 6 months to a year. If You can affort it, GOOD FOR YOU..!! CONGRATULATIONS!! But there are people like ME, that WE CAN NOT!! So, the system need to be reformulated, that is a fact.! America is been built on immigrants. legal or not! And in this and any other case, THAT SHOULD BE A PRIME ISSUE IN EVERY ELECTION!! That should be the priority for those as...ols up in WASHINGTON. DEMOCRATS, REPUBLICANS, LIBERALS, WHITES BLACKS, PINKS, LEFTIST, RIGHTIST, MIDDLE , ETC, ETC, ETC...!! do You UNDERSTAND now...??? I got to go, I have better things to do..  | |
|
| |
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/28/2008 10:38:27 PM | Niether party will really do anything.
Democratic party doesn't want to disrupt the latino vote. They are trying to lock it in like the African American vote.
Republicans won't do anything that will disrupt the latino vote. They don't want to lose them to the Democrats like they lost the African American vote. | |
|
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/28/2008 10:44:15 PM | I know you have better things to do, but just in case you happen to peep back in, Mr. Ready has a comments on your last statements:
Only two visas were expired but a total of 11 of the 19 were gotten without proper documentation. Just google it and see. So yes because of bad governmental policies we became victims. The same bad government which allows rampant undocumented workers to stay in this country.
But that does not mean that ALL immigrants (legal or not) should be punished for those mistakes. Let's not forget OKLAHOMA, RUBY RIDGE, WACO... That alone tells me that something is wrong. And IT NEED TO BE FIXED.!!
Read back through my posts and tell me where I said legal immigrants should be punished. But illegal immigrants should. And, America, like everywhere, has a few basket cases as citizens. They were dealt with. And illegals SHOULD be . But what do McVey, Koresh and other goofballs have to do with this anyway?
Don't ask me why, but I get the feeling you might be an undocumented worker? Am I right?
Now, yes, we could probably start "herding' em up". But to what porpouse.?? I mean, really..!!
Well, better economy, more available jobs for American's that it's been shown WILL work those jobs, lowered healthcare costs, relieved tax burdens, reduced housing shortages. You want more? I got 'em. Really.
As we see nowdays, they can go themselves if they can not find a job here on the US.
I like the way you worded that one. ON the US. Problem is they don't go back, not enough of them anyway. Hence the crackdowns, as legal Americans lose more jobs and see tougher times, they will complain more and more and there will be massive crackdowns. They are starting. And I hope a legal American citizen who needs it gets to fill each and every job they vacate.
a great percentage of AMERICANS strugle to make ends meet., including me And getting rid of them in that fashion is going to put a big burden upon our shoulders. The cost of living will increment for almost 300% in the first 6 months to a year.
There is no way on earth you can justify that statement. I don't even know how you typed it with a straight face. How would creating more jobs for American's and lowering welfare, unemployment costs, government health care and food stamp costs cause you a cost of living increase? It would reduce your costs at the very least. Show me one thing that backs your claim up, and I'll give you 15 things that say you're full of it.
So, yes, either the goverment brings them out of the shadows or stop giving them jobs.
I don't know how those can be used as compare & contrast examples, but I haven't heard of many illegals being hired by the government these days. It's an election year. But if you mean stop employers from giving them jobs, I agree 100%.
America is been built on immigrants. legal or not
Legal, I'm sure. Illegals don't do much building according to what I read, they do the vegetable picking, janitorial work and in construction are mostly on the demolition and clean up crews. I'm sure there are exceptions to that rule. Maybe you know. | |
|
| |
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/29/2008 1:23:55 AM | Unless he's recently changed his position on illegal immigration, not much reason to listen to his speech, his position on illegal immigration has been available on the web for everyone to see for a long time now(and his position is almost identical to McCain's), and his plan is too similar to the failed Reagan plan to deal with illegal immigration back in 86. Just what we need, to implement another failed policy. Both presidential candidates are wanting to return to something that's too similar to that failed policy. A lose-lose situation for anyone who really wants to see the problem of illegal immigration solved. 
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/24/opinion/24meese.html | |
|
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/29/2008 5:46:30 AM | ^^^^^^^ Regarding your idea that Obama's position on illegal immigration "is almost identical to McCain's," and is "too similar to the failed Reagan plan to deal with illegal immigration back in 86," I would like to point out that you are overlooking a clear difference, which is, in my opinion the central piece of this puzzle regarding illegal immigration.
Obama's plan includes the enforcement of the laws against the employers who hire undocumented workers, and I trust that Obama "will do what he says that he is going to do." He will take away the profit motive from the employers so that they will not keep on hiring people who don't have the proper documentation. Just one big fine against an employer could be enough of a deterrent for many others to start complying with the law instead of lining their pockets with the profits from their illegal actions.
Now, you could tell me that McCain also includes in his plan the idea of enforcing the laws but, with all due respect to people's intelligence, we would have to be really stupid to believe that the Republicans would do that. The Chamber of Commerce will never allow them to do that.
So you say: "Just what we need, to implement another failed policy." And then you pasted a link to the published opinion of a high level official of the Reagan administration who you think will validate your opinion.
I recommend that you re-read the article and find out why exactly their plan didn't work. It is right there, in plain letters for you to see. The author says that they carried out all the facets of the plan, except that "there proved to be a failure of political will in enforcing new laws against employers." That is the missing key to a plan that could work. It was never carried out because the Republicans had their hands tied when it came to fighting against the main incentive attracting undocumented workers: employers who will hire them because they aren't afraid of being punished for breaking the law.
You would expect that the writer would say, perhaps we should try to carry out the whole plan, including the enforcement of laws against the employers, but is not a surprise to me that a prominent Republican like Edward Meese (he was one of the people responsible of enforcing the laws, and he didn't,) now would only focus the attention on going after the undocumented workers, not the employers.
Everyone should read that link from your post, analize it, examine the issue and re-calibrate their opinions on the issue if necessary before posting in this thread. I know that we are entitled to our opinions and we have the freedom to express them, but without solid information regarding what has been happening in the country in the last 30 years, some of what we read here sounds like pure and unadulterated scapegoating, and in some cases tinted with hatred and racism, albeit disguised by a "patriotic" concern for the state of our country and fellow citizens. | |
|
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/29/2008 9:39:50 AM | | Hello Mr Ready.. is me again. Let me ster toff by saying that I am AS AMERICAN AS AMERICAN CAN BE. Half hispanic, half NATIVE AMERICAN INDIAN. I wonder what my ancestors have to say about me being an "undocumented worker". My ancestors, the very people that were here before the arrival of the MAYFLOWER. Perceptions can be a funny thing. Looks can be decieving. So, Please be careful when You pass judgement onto others just because of the color of their skin. Two months ago, there was a raid somewhere in IOWA. And the sad truth is that not many AMERICANS showed up to fill in the void. That company had to hire people from MOROCCO and other places in africa and asia. With a 50% increase in wages..!! And guess who is going to pay for the extra cost in producction..?? WE THE COSTUMER. Two ears ago. there were some raids in the crop fields in states like COLORADO, NEVADA and OREGON . The crops went to rot. Because not many americans showed up looking for work.. Some items TRIPLED in price like tomatoes. That is 300% in less than 2 weeks. It kept that price for almost 2 months until the crops from FLORIDA, TEXAS and OHIO. were ready, because CALIFORNIA could not supply enough for the demand. Other items like broccoli also went up in price, but what do I care..?? I don't like broccoli! But that does not mean that other people likes it. Yes, this was a metaphor. As You can see, I do not have to JUSTIFY anything. I told You the facts were there. but either You are not doing the research or lack the math skills of a fourth grader. When I mentioned OKLAHOMA, I was being broad in my statement about the system being broken AND THE NEED TO FIX IT!!! But those guys in WASHINGTON spend and awful lot of time an money doing NOTHING..!! and guess who pays the tag..?? WE, THE COSTUMERS..!! AS IN TAXPAYERS.. Meanwhile they blame someone else for it. Including the "illegals".. Yes, when I mentioned the jobs I was referring to the empoyers. Good thing You mentioned that. because OUR GOVERMENT ALSO HIRES "ILLEGALS".. AND THAT IS A FACT!! You know how many "illegals" are in our armed forces..?? My own 2 cousins were there. One died in AFGHANISTAN, the other in IRAQ. Don't You agree that that COMMANDS respect!! I will not say anything else about that because I promissed my aunt not to broaden up in the issue anymore. But I tell You this, they were there, so to people like YOu or I. as in Myself. DON' HAVE TO GO TO WAR.. Isn't that something.?? And yes thre are more than a "few" exeptions to the rule. But like , my father used to say, rules are not meant to be broken, but to be bent. And some of them are so flexible that they can twist them al the way around if it so benefits a few chosen ones with the POWER AND MONEY to do so..As You can see Mr. Ready. YES, I KNOW ABOUT THAT... and even more, I CAN RELATE TO IT!! But I already wasted much time in this thing. I go to go work. I like to think that I am being productive and try to CONTRUBUTE to the economy instead of just talking about or even worse... COMPLAINT ABOUT IT. !! What about You Mr, Ready.. do You contribute..?? What have You done for this country today..??? Have a nice life... | |
|
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/29/2008 11:16:32 AM |
"But....but...NAFTA was signed into law by Bill Clinton!"
oddandy,
it is time you start researching the subject. NAFTA was totally negotiated during the Republican administration of George H. Bush, the father of the current president. All that was done by Clinton was to sign the agreement ratified by congress.
I'm well aware of that. However, it was Clinton that chose to sign it and make it the law of the land. He didn't have to.
I don't blame Clinton for NAFTA.
That's like not blaming Shrub for signing into law the mis-named Patriot Act that was passed by Congress.... | |
|
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/29/2008 11:22:43 AM |
I'm well aware of that. However, it was Clinton that chose to sign it and make it the law of the land. He didn't have to.
Speaking as a Canadian, Clinton would have been a fool not to sign it.
Our government at the time staked everything on getting an agreement; yours had virtually no political capital invested in one. So your negotiators were able to get everything they wanted from our negotiators without giving up anything we wanted. It was and is a very slanted deal.
I have no idea about the Mexican part of it that was added later, except that environmental protections were stripped out of the original agreement, since we do very little trade with Mexico. | |
|
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/29/2008 12:05:20 PM | in reply to msg 294,
I don't trust McCain or Obama to enforce employer sanctions to the best of their ability. Reagan didn't do it, Bush 41 didn't do it, Clinton didn't do it and Bush 43 didn't do it. So if you believe Obama will do it, I think you're going to be let down sad to say.
And don't lump McCain and all other republicans together. You said "Now, you could tell me that McCain also includes in his plan the idea of enforcing the laws but, with all due respect to people's intelligence, we would have to be really stupid to believe that the Republicans would do that. The Chamber of Commerce will never allow them to do that." McCain has always been weak on the illegal immigration issue, but when his campaign was in its last gasp around june of last year and it looked like he would lose the republican nomination, he started talking about securing the border first, and suddenly his campaign came back to life and surged ahead because people were fooled that he'd be really serious about stopping illegal immigration (just like people who think Obama will be serious about stopping it are being fooled too, because looking at both of their past records, you can see neither of them really cared too much about stopping it)but stopping it will take much more than simply "securing the border first", thats only one of many things that need to be done to solve the problem, the interior needs to be secured too, but McCain didn't mention that, he's focused on the border where only about half of all illegal immigration comes from, the rest are people who came through legal ports of entry but came illegally or ended up overstaying their visa with no intention of leaving when they were required to).
Look here to see McCain's record on illegal imigration and compare it with another republican, there's a huge difference between them.
http://grades.betterimmigration.com/testgrades.php3?District=AZ&VIPID=33
http://www.betterimmigration.com/candidates/2006/prez2008.html
http://grades.betterimmigration.com/testgrades.php3?District=SC03&VIPID=1124
And finally you can view Obama's record here
http://grades.betterimmigration.com/testgrades.php3?District=IL&VIPID=1162
Looking at his past record on illegal immigration, it doesn't seem like he is too concerned with stopping illegal immigration.
So, you can't paint McCain and all other republicans with the same brush, there are big differences between them. And by the way, the chamber of commerce has a lot of influence with democrats too, not just republicans. Just look at Ted Kennedy. And not all republicans are slaves to the CoC, nor are all democrats, but there are there are definitely some in each party who are. If you think a democrat will do better and its all republicans fault, then why didn't Bill Clinton enforce employer sanctions on businesses employing illegal workers to the best of his ability?
I imagine you are a democrat and an obama supporter, so anytime anyone says something negative about democrats and Obama it probably upsets you and puts you in deensive mode, but I am neither a republican nor a democrat, I am an independent and don't vote down party lines, I vote for whoever I feel is the best candidate, and I've gotten behind candidates who were democrat such as Nancy Boyda
http://grades.betterimmigration.com/testgrades.php3?District=SC03&VIPID=1124
republican, such as J. Gresham Barett and Bobby Jindal(who's said we should enforce our current laws against illegal immigration, because they have not been fully enforced for many years)and reject amnesty and I've also supported 3rd party candidates too(I will be voting for Chuck Baldwin of the Constitution Party this time around for president because imo he's far better than McCain or Obama on illegal immigration, see the above link where he is compared to McCain and Obama, as well as many other issues(though I don't agree with him on everything) and I don't care if he has very little chance of winning, I won't vote for a lesser of two evils. | |
|
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/29/2008 1:39:31 PM | ^^^^^ I am not a Democrat, I am very independent, although I am supporting Obama in this election because we can't afford 4 more years of the disastrous mess that we are in right now because of Bush and the Republicans.
I know that Clinton didn't do anything (perhaps I should say that he didn't do any thing of significance) about the issue of illegal immigration, and I wasn't defending him. But, you went into the partisan thing about the issue. Like the whole thing about the democrats being as guilty as the republicans when it comes to working with the Chamber of Commerce. I suggest that you read the previous posts in this thread, because I have clearly stated before that I understand that greed has no political boundaries, and that greedy employers may be republicans as well as democrats. If you would be happy if I recognize that Clinton was as bad as the republican presidents on this issue, then I will agree to that, but my point is a little different.
It is somewhat disingenuous to go on a discussion about the politicians, instead of addressing the point that I am making. The failed policy of the Republicans (and yes, Clinton didn't do anything important about it) was so because they failed to enforce one of the most important aspects of it. Ed Meese recognized it. Let me quote it again: "there proved to be a failure of political will in enforcing new laws against employers." And then he goes into the need to crack down on the undocumented workers and make them go to the end of the line if they really want to come back here, etc. He is not saying that unless we try to enforce the laws against the employers at the same time that we try to deport the undocumented workers, the policy will continue to fail. I mean you posted the link to the Ed Meese article, I assume for the purpose of giving support to your idea that Obama and McCain's plans for controlling illegal immigration are the same failed policy of Ronald Reagan.
I am pointing to the inconsistency of talking about failed policies without explaining why they failed. The political discussion about which candidate does one trust to resolve, or at least try, the issue is pretty clear. I trust Obama because his plan includes what has been missing for 30 years, and I am hoping that he will do what he says that he is going to do. As an independent, I will give him a chance. If he doesn't deliver, better say if he doesn't try, then my support will have been a waste, and no more vote for him from this voter. | |
|
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/29/2008 1:54:21 PM | oddandy,
regarding your post, message # 296, I think that it could be a very interested topic. Why don't you start a thread regarding the issue of who is responsible for NAFTA? I most surely will contribute to it, however I don't want to derail this thread about illegal immigration. The reason I brought NAFTA into this thread is because the effect of its implementation in Mexico is one of the reasons why so many undocumented workers have been crossing the border into the USA. If you would rather would play political football, then start your own thread. | |
|
|
| Page 12 of 16
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 |
|
Home
login 
