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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/29/2008 2:53:11 PM | re: msg 299
I didn't say Obama and McCains plans were exactly the same as Reagan's, I said similar. Similar in that they want to give citizenship to illegals, instead of fees, they are supposed to pay fines, are supposed to learn english, etc., etc. Fraud was rampant under Reagan when he allowed illegals to gain citizenship, is it so hard to think fraud under a democrat giving citizenship to many more millions of illegals won't have rampant fraud too where millions of illegals get citizenship(instead of being required to leave the country and go to the back of the line)that didn't bother to learn english, had serious criminal backgrounds, etc. that were not supposed to?
I believe Obama(and McCain) will have the same failure of political will to go after employers of illegal aliens, because Obama's past record shows he is weak on illegal immigration, and his past record tells me to expect more of the same if he's elected. You can believe he's suddenly changed his tune and will turn over a new leaf and finally get serious about enforcing the laws, but I and many others are not that gullible. As I'm sure you know, politicians say things all the time to get elected, when they don't really mean what they say. Both parties have broken campaign promises, its nothing new. The only real way to tell if someone is going to do what they say is to look at their past record. When looking at Obama's past record on illegal immigration, its pretty weak, which is a good indicator that he will continue to be weak on illegal immigration and not make much attempt at enforcing laws. I doubt he will do any better than Clinton or Bush, and neither of them made a serious effort at enforcing laws having to do with illegal immigration. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/29/2008 4:31:38 PM | ^^^^^^ You didn't say "similar". Here is what you said: "(and his position is almost identical to McCain's), and his plan is too similar to the failed Reagan plan to deal with illegal immigration back in 86." I think that I quoted you exactly regarding this affirmation of yours, so this defense of yours: "I didn't say Obama and McCains plans were exactly the same as Reagan's, I said similar. Similar.... ," really doesn't make much sense.
At least now I have an idea where you stand on the issue. Correct me if I am wrong, please, but it sounds like you are saying that nobody is going to do anything about the employers, so let's get working on getting the "illegal aliens" out of the country. From what I understood reading the link that you posted, that was pretty much the extent of the feeble efforts to enforce immigration laws, and that was the failed policy. So, it seems to me that you are right there with Ed Meese who, despite knowing that not enforcing the laws against the employers lead to a failed policy, still wanted to keep on doing more of the same. Why would you expect a different result? | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/29/2008 5:23:37 PM | I'm afraid you are mistaken about my position. I'm saying I strongly feel that neither McCain nor Obama will be serious about going after employers of illegal aliens, they may make a half hearted attempt to make it look like they are doing something like past presidents have, but no more than that. Could you really see either of them going after a big company like Wal-mart with all their power when its discovered they are employing so many illegal workers? I just don't see either one of them doing that. We need a real president who will not be afraid to take on big companies like that if they refuse to replace their illegal workers with American workers. Since it seems like neither McCain nor Obama will be getting serious about going after employers of illegal aliens for the next 4 years, I'm saying I hope that we can get someone into office after they leave who will be serious about it, not someone who makes empty promises and lame attempts at enforcing the laws like the presidents we'd had in recent decades.
That does not mean I say we should get going on deporting all of them(though deportations have been happening for decades and should continue, and I wouldn't see anything wrong with a more than doubling of annual deportations to around 500,000 per year. But I seriously doubt McCain or Obama would do that. If anything, they'd keep the rate the same or lower it.
If a huge amnesty(or path to citizenship if you prefer to call it that, they are more or less the same thing) happens under McCain or Obama, like GWB recently tried to push through several times(and failed due to citizen backlash the likes of which longtime senators like John Warner had never seen during his entire career, which crashed the capital switchboard, then that will make it much more difficult for anything serious to be done about illegal immigration in the future, because those millions of former illegal aliens will most likely vote for politicians who are weak on illegal immigration, making it even harder for anyone with a serious desire to stop illegal immigration to get into office(no matter if they are democrat or republican or third party), it will be a vicious cycle, and the next flood of illegal aliens will begin and eventually there will be another amnesty, and another flood of illegal aliens and that cycle will continue until we have crushing overpopulation and serious pollution problems like China.
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 304 | |
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/29/2008 9:08:23 PM | QUOTE: I'm afraid you are mistaken about my position. I'm saying I strongly feel that neither McCain nor Obama will be serious about going after employers of illegal aliens, they may make a half hearted attempt to make it look like they are doing something like past presidents have, but no more than that
^^ I believe you are probably essentially correct in that assumption.
QUOTE: Could you really see either of them going after a big company like Wal-mart with all their power when its discovered they are employing so many illegal workers? I just don't see either one of them doing that
^^ No I couldn't see it, and it won't happen. What is said on the campaign trail, on either side, is of course a little different in many cases than what's going to actually be able to happen once they get into office ....as any even remotely astute observer already knows.
After all, even the "conservative" offering this time around, McCain, has never been a real "hardliner" on issues like this, illegal immigration. John Kerry seriously considered him for a running mate I believe so he can't truly be that conservative at heart. Despite his recent "hard right turn" (largely rhetorical, cynical and vote-oriented I believe), he is not a "true believer" or a hardliner on this or many other issues many conservatives are concerned about. And I don't just say that because I'm not voting for him and I want to see others not vote for him as well. Vote for who you like; I'm just saying I feel this is the way it is.
I don't think much of any real consequence on this issue will be done, period. Sure you have your raids here and there (the other day there was a big one, as we know, in Mississippi , wasn't it??), and that may or may not continue to happen from time to time. But ultimately those are something like band-aids on a shotgun blast wound. It's not doing anything to get to the real source(s) of the problem in any case, which range from corporate greed to flawed and unfair trade policies. Neither of the two mainstream party's candidates are going to be able to (or perhaps even want to) seriously address or change either of those issues, IMO.
I think (and I was not a supporter of his in general, personally, but I think....) Ron Paul for example would have been about the only one out of the candidates who were running in '08 who would have probably seriously taken this issue head-on. I'm not sure of Bob Barr's exact stance on this, but it may be similar to Paul's. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/30/2008 3:21:22 PM | I am pasting a link to an article that illustrates the difficulties experienced by business when there is a reduction in the influx of people coming to work in areas of this country. Even a small reduction in the number of people who come to work here legally may create a serious disruption, and the local people aren't filling those jobs because they don't offer enough pay, nor benefits. Our economy is addicted to cheap labor and it will be a long struggle to wean it from that need that keep on bringing immigrants, legal and illegal.
Here is the link:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/08/29/division_of_labor/ | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/30/2008 10:05:44 PM | ^^^^^^I hope the former
according to many, the slow economy (aww bull, it's damn near a depression) will send many running. The housing market (or absence of) has made a huge dent in their otherwise prosperous escapades, so letls see if the flood gates open going back into mexico. I still want to hear what obama plans to do about fining or jailing employers of illegals. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/30/2008 10:10:22 PM | re: msg 306,
McCain will do more or less what Bush did. Make token efforts at stopping illegal immigration and deporting a relatively small number of illegal aliens(no more than the over 200,000 that were deported last year), then try to ram a massive amnesty through the senate and house as many times as he thinks he can get away with. It will be up to citizens to stop it again by calling their senators and representatives in massive enough numbers to crash the capitol switchboard again. But then again, if Obama wins, he will do more or less the same as McCain. As Obama himself said, "There's not a dime's worth of difference between John McCain and I on the issue of illegal immigration."
In response to msg. 305 in this thread, that article does not talk about the massive abuse and fraud associated with the work visa system in this country, where foreign workers are brought in instead of hiring available American citizen workers. I've talked to people who I know well who have seen it firsthand. The greedy and unscrupulous boss will tell the H.R. director to pass over the American workers who apllied for the jobs and just bring in the foreign workers on work visa who will work for less pay than American citizen workers are willing to, as well as no benefits. There is a limit to how many visas can be used, and when they run out, the greedy and unscrupulous bosses complain and make it sound like its the end of the world, because they don't want to be forced into hiring American citizen workers who want decent pay and at least some kind of benefits. Here is a link with more info
http://bridgetinthesixth.blogspot.com/2007/06/h2b-visa-fraud.html | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/30/2008 10:22:50 PM | I live in Texas and trust me there is really no effort to stop illegals. Actually, if they could have them come over here and work during the day and go back across the border at night they would. Do not get me started. We need to come up with a system to assist them in becoming citizens. But, the way our dollar is going maybe in the next 10 years (especially if McCain/Palin win) we will be the illegals of Mexico. Just a thought. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/30/2008 10:24:56 PM | incorrect... this is how it is done in texas. one person usually the family member that has been here , and was given citizenship by past presidents in there wide sweep of accepting illegals as legals to collect tax dollars from them...
so this one person, goes to human resource office in tyler texas, on the form he writes in his house he claims over 13 or so people. babies up to great grandma. he does not have to give social security numbers for these people. just shows who is bringing an income in to the house. the person is the head of the family. and yes he gets a lot of food stamps, money off electricity and gas and phone bill... also the kids get a program in texas called wic. and any pregnant mother, does not have to be an american citizen. they get free milk, eggs, cereal, vegetables, peanut butter, beans. so add those dollars up... oh and if they do not have a car. the american tax payers picks up the tab for a cab or some one transporting them to the office, or doctors office.
most of these people in this so called house hold... that is if there is even that many living there in the first place. work construction usually or house cleaning, which is money under the table they do not claim. i know cause my neighbors house cleaner does this. and all her family works under the table for 9 dollars an hour construction. plus the govt tax dollars for the above i stated... they do well enough to drive new cars!!!!!, of course they do not claim them on the forms for free welfare. and no one comes by and checks.
as far as the 2% stated in one of the post about hospitals shutting down... i say bull shit.
78% of county hospitals are paid by Medicaid and Medicare, and chips, (a texas insurance for any kid born in texas) yea, alot of illegal kids. these hospitals are shutting down, for the 78% does not cover expenses... so they do fund raisers , or grants, or what ever they can to keep open... kilgore texas hospital. called laird hospital just shut down a year ago, just because most were getting medicaid, and they could not stay open. it is horrible, you have to drive almost 45 min to an hour to get to an emergency now. not counting ambulance time getting to your house. they would still be open if it wasn't for the illegals who walk around with garbage bags across their shoulders and sleep in the woods or packed in a trailer, to get free health care, hospitals have to treat them period or they can be sued in texas by an illegal. and plus all the medicaid mothers and kids. sorry... i am pissed that laird was shut down because of this!!!
the statement that you think that americans do not believe any of our presidents are going to do anything about it, is right on... they are not. too many past presidents have given undeserving citizen ship to undeserving people, who are here to work and take the money back to mexico. the ones who stay just breed , as equating children as a sign of prosperity. and each president is going to keep giving free citizenship to them for taxes they can claim..
the joke is that they do not claim taxes. they just go under the table. but you bet they are going to be a force to be recognized, for with their undeserved citizen ship, they will vote to keep the people in office to help suck more out of the system. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/30/2008 11:58:47 PM | | Tell Obama good luck on getting AK-47's out of the hands of criminals when the vast majority of illegal weapons come in from the southern boarder daily. You can’t stop an ongoing leak if you don't bother to truly try to fix it, the problem isn’t’ going to go away on its own. That's exactly how Bush, McCain and Obama look at the southern boarder issue. Putting fences up here or there alone isn't going to fix the problem. You put a fence up with little to no one guarding them, then the drug trafficker’s, arms dealers and terrorist will just tunnel underneath it or cut right through it. The southern California boarder is a prime example of that in places like San Diego. You need monitoring systems and a lot of border portal agents guarding the places that are passable for these types of criminals and terrorist to cross. If we would have put just half as much effort in to stopping these types of acts at the southern border as we did in Iraq, then the borders would be secured. This is why guys like Bush, McCain and Obama are hypocrites. They want to fight terror abroad, but yet neither of them want to really stop terror from coming across our own backyard, because if they did then our border problems would be fixed right now. I mean hell, why attempt to get on a plane and try to kill thousands of people, when it would be much easier to walk across the southern boarder and kill thousands of people instead. Why haven't any of these 3 come up with anything to truly try to fix it? Because they care more about the almighty south western vote more so then the american peoples own damn safety. That's why Bush Sr, didn't do anything, that's why Clinton didn't do anything, and thats why the current Bush didn't do anything and neither will the next President. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/31/2008 12:32:57 AM | Palin has no views on this issue. I guess she will follow McCain's views.
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Other aspects only after consensus that borders are secure
On the issue of illegal immigration, a position which provoked the outspoken opposition of many conservatives, I stood my ground aware that my position would imperil my campaign. I respect your opposition for I know that the vast majority of critics to the bill based their opposition in a principled defense of the rule of law. And while I and other Republican supporters of the bill were genuine in our intention to restore control of our borders, we failed, for various and understandable reasons, to convince Americans that we were. I accept that, and have pledged that it would be among my highest priorities to secure our borders first, and only after we achieved widespread consensus that our borders are secure, would we address other aspects of the problem in a way that defends the rule of law and does not encourage another wave of illegal immigration.
Source: Speeches to 2008 Conservative Political Action Conference Feb 7, 2008
Deport 2 million illegal immigrants who committed crimes
There are 2 million people who are here who have committed crimes. They have to be rounded up and deported. We're all basically in agreement there are humanitarian situations. It varies with how long they've been here, et cetera. We are all committed to carrying out the mandate of the American people, which is a national security issue, which is securing the borders. That was part of the original proposal, but the American people didn't trust or have confidence in us that we would do it.
Source: 2008 Republican debate at Reagan Library in Simi Valley Jan 30, 2008
Would no longer push his own 2006 immigration proposal
Q: Your 2006 immigration proposal was much broader and included a pathway to citizenship for illegal immigrants who were already here. At this point, if your original proposal came to a vote on the Senate floor, would you vote for it?
A: No, it would not, because we know what the situation is today. So to say that that would come to the floor of the Senate, it won't. We went through various amendments which prevented that proposal. We will secure the borders first when I am president. I know how to d that. I come from a border state, where we know about building walls, and vehicle barriers, and sensors, and all of the things necessary. I will have the border state governors certify the borders are secured. Then we will move onto the other aspects of this issue, as importantly as tamper-proof biometric documents, which then, unless an employer hires someone with those documents, that employer will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. That will cause a lot of people to leave voluntarily.
Source: 2008 Republican debate at Reagan Library in Simi Valley Jan 30, 2008
Certify border is secure; only then allow guest workers
Q: If the Senate passed your bill, S1433, the McCain-Kennedy Immigration Bill, would you as president sign it?
A: Yeah, but look, the lesson is, it isn't going to come. The lesson is they want the border secured first. I come from a border state. I know how to fix those borders with walls, with UAVs, with sensors, with cameras, with vehicle barriers. They want the border secured first. And I will do that, and, as president, I will have the border state governors certify those borders are secured. And then we will have a temporary worker program with tamper-proof biometric documents, and any employer who employs someone in any other circumstances will be prosecuted. That means a lot of people will leave just normally because they're not going to be able to get their job. Then we have to get rid of two million people who have committed crimes here. We have to round them up and deport them. As far as the others are concerned, we were in an ongoing discussion when this whole thing collapsed.
Source: Meet the Press: 2008 "Meet the Candidates" series Jan 27, 2008
2003 "amnesty" didn't mean rewarding illegal behavior
Q: Mitt Romney says in a TV ad, "McCain supported this year's amnesty bill. Amnesty for illegals: that's straight talk for being in Washington too long." You said back in 2003. "I think we can set up a program where amnesty is extended to a certain number of people who are eligible. Amnesty has to be an important part because there are people who have lived in this country for 20, 30 or 40 years, who have raised children here, paid taxes here and are not citizens. That has to be a component of it."
A: Look, I have said time after time that no one can be reward for illegal behavior. The context of that conversation, don't you call that "amnesty." I have said in hundreds of hours of debate on the Senate floor, we reward no one for illegal behavior They have to pay fines. They have to take the naturalization. About two million people here in this country who have come illegally, have committed crimes here in America, and they have to be deported immediately.
Source: Meet the Press: 2008 "Meet the Candidates" series Jan 6, 2008
Round up and deport two million aliens who committed crimes
Q: How would you deport the two million illegal aliens who have committed crimes?
A: You round them up and you find them.
Q: Two million people, though? Logistically, how do you do that?
A: It's very hard, but what's the choice? Having people who are breaking our laws in our country illegally? But the other aspect of it is that people come forward, and those that don't come forward, then obviously it's easier to identify them, and then we address their situation according to how long they've been here, what their record is, but they cannot be rewarded for illegal behavior. In other words, they can't be put in front of anybody else.
Q: Fourteen million illegal immigrants here, let's say two million have committed crimes. The remaining 12 million: they will stay?
A: I have said in debate after debate, it's not that they will stay, it depends on their category. I'm deporting any soldiers' grandmothers. We have to address this in a humane and compassionate fashion.
Source: Meet the Press: 2008 "Meet the Candidates" series Jan 6, 2008
FactCheck: Yes, he has used the word "amnesty" in the past
While debating whether McCain supported amnesty, Romney said, "I don't describe your plan as amnesty in my ad." McCain denied ever favoring amnesty, saying, "Let me just say I've never supported amnesty."
McCain is right when he says that his bill required penalties to be paid by illegals trying to adjust their status, while dictionaries define "amnesty" as a pardon. But he himself has in the past used the "a" word to describe what he had in mind:
May 29, 2003 interview: "Amnesty has to be an important part because there are people who have lived in this country for 20, 30 or 40 years, who have raised children here and pay taxes here and are not citizens."
Dec. 15, 2000 press release: "I support the Latino and Immigrant Fairness Act (LIFA). Negotiations between the White House and the leadership, which endorsed more limited immigration reform, have resulted in a compromise.... this bill makes meaningful but insufficient progress on amnesty for those wrongly denied it."
Source: FactCheck.org on 2008 Facebook/WMUR-NH Republican debate Jan 5, 2008
Do everything I can to help all immigrants learn English
Q: Do you think that there would be a practical value of making English our official language?
A: I think the most practical value is to make English used by all Americans and all citizens, and all who come here. The only way we move up the economic ladder from the bottom rung is to know English. And I would emphasize the importance of every person who comes to this country to become a citizen and enjoy its liberties & beauty is to learn English. And I will do everything I can to help them do that.
Source: 2007 Republican primary debate on Univision Dec 9, 2007
Illegal immigrants are God's children as well
Q: Will you pledge to veto any immigration bill that involves amnesty?
A: Yes, of course, and we never proposed amnesty. But then you've still got two other aspects of this issue that have to be resolved as well. We need to sit down as Americans and recognize these are God's children as well. And they need some protection under the law; they need some of our love and compassion. I want to assure you that I'll enforce the borders first. We'll solve this immigration problem.
Source: 2007 GOP YouTube debate in St. Petersburg, Florida Nov 28, 2007
Absences from negotiations hurt reform bill's chances
McCain had been largely AWOL from the immigration negotiations all year, after previously serving as the deal's lead Republican champion. For the Arizona senator it was the worst of all possible worlds: his effort to get something done about a pressing national problem was being held up on a what he considered to be a niggling detail; and although he was no longer the Republican face on the deal--he'd sloughed that thankless duty off on his state-mate John Kyl. [Meanwhile, McCain] was still being hammered in the conservative media and the polls over the deeply unpopular "amnesty" bill.
Source: The Myth of a Maverick, by Matt Welch, p.109 Oct 9, 2007
12 million illegals in country now is de facto amnesty
Q: Are you just playing politics, backing a new plan which would enforce the borders but without any longer a path to citizenship?
A: Very seldom have I seen an issue that aroused this much passion with the American people. No one is for amnesty. I and the president came forward with a plan that we thought was comprehensive and workable with the priority being border security, which remains my position. Why we failed is because the American people have lost trust and confidence in us. We have to succeed, because there's 12 million people who are in this country illegally, which is de facto amnesty, and we need a temporary worker program. I commit to securing the borders first. We can secure those borders. As president, I would have the border state governors certify that those borders were indeed secure.
Source: 2007 GOP debate at UNH, sponsored by Fox News Sep 5, 2007
Amnesty is forgiveness; we offer fines; lines; & long waits
Q: [to McCain]: How do you not call the circumstances of comprehensive immigration reform as an amnesty?
MCCAIN: Well, because amnesty, according to the dictionary, is forgiveness. The proposal that we had would require fines, would require back in the line, would require deportation for some. It would require others to go back to the country of their origin. It would require an enormous amount of time, as long as 13 years, before anyone could even be eligible for citizenship in this country.
ROMNEY: First of all, the Z visa that was offered in that Senate bill let everybody who's here illegally, other than criminals, stay here for the rest of their lives. And that may not be technically amnesty, but it is certainly amnesty in fact. [The magnet for illegal immigrants, besides] having amnesty, is saying, if you come and you're willing to work and pay taxes, we'll sign you up. That's not the right message. We've got to enforce the law, welcoming legal immigration, but ending illegal immigration.
Source: 2007 GOP debate at UNH, sponsored by Fox News Sep 5, 2007
No official English; Native Americans use own languages
Q: Is there someone here who doesn't believe English should be the official language of the US?
McCAIN: I would like to remind you that we made treaties with Native Americans, such as the Navajos in my state, where we respect their sovereignty and they use their native language in their deliberations. Everybody knows that English has to be learned if anyone ever wants to move up the economic ladder. That is obvious. And part of our legislation, by the way, is a requirement to learn English.
Source: 2007 GOP debate at Saint Anselm College Jun 3, 2007
Immigration reform needed for national security
Q [to Romney]: Sen. McCain has accused you of flip-flopping on immigration. He said: "Pandering for votes on this issue while offering no solution to the problem amounts to doing nothing, and doing nothing is silent amnesty."
ROMNEY: My view is that we should enforce immigration laws. And this bill [lets almost] every illegal alien stay here. That's simply not fair to get put ahead in the line of all the people who've been waiting legally.
McCAIN: Our legislation does account for people who are here illegally, it does have an employment verification system, and it weeds out those who shouldn't be here, and it gives others a chance to remain in this country. Look, this is a national security issue first and foremost. What we have done is come together with the president, and the leaders of both parties, and sit down and figure out an approach to this problem. It is a serious national security problem. We need to act, and if someone else has a better idea, I'd love to have them give it to us.
Source: 2007 GOP debate at Saint Anselm College Jun 3, 2007
Hispanics serve our country, like every wave of immigrants
Q [to Tancredo]: Would you advertise for your campaign in Spanish? Specifically, I'm referring to the highly publicized comment you recently made that Miami was like a third world country.
TANCREDO: No, I would not advertise in Spanish. English is the glue that keeps a country together, any country. McCain's immigration bill codifies Pres. Clinton's executive order that said all papers produced by the government have to be in various languages.
McCAIN: Well, first of all, muchas gracias. We have to stop the illegal immigration, but we've had waves throughout our history. Hispanics is what we're talking about, a different culture, a different language, which has enriched my state where Spanish was spoken before English was. In Washington DC, go to the Vietnam War Memorial and look at the names engraved in black granite. You'll find a whole lot of Hispanic names. They must come into country legally, but they have enriched our culture and our nation as every generation of immigrants before them.
Source: 2007 GOP debate at Saint Anselm College Jun 3, 2007
America expects us to work on immigration together
Q [to Tancredo]: Do you think that Sen. McCain is soft on immigration?
TANCREDO: I do. He sponsored a bill that would have given amnesty to everybody who's here illegally. It would have required us to actually consult with Mexico as to whether or not we would build the fence along our southern border. If we pursue this path toward amnesty, it's a disaster for the country.
McCAIN: I have never supported amnesty and never would. But the American people expect us to sit down and work this issue out together. That's what I've been doing for a couple of years now. We are very close to an agreement, led by our president and his Cabinet, that will first secure our borders. Then we would have a temporary worker program that could only be valid through a tamper-proof biometric document. And then we would address the issue of the 12 million people who are already here.
ROMNEY: The key part of what I objected to in McCain-Kennedy is that they should not get any advantage by having come here illegally.
Source: 2007 Republican Debate in South Carolina May 15, 2007
Bipartisanship shows preparedness for presidency
Q: Immigration reform is a signature issue for you. But now you're reported as "largely absent from this year's negotiations."
A: Actually, I'm on constant contact on this issue. I think we are close to an agreement.
Q: Some pundits say your identification with Sen. Kennedy on the immigration issue has accounted for your political problems with conservatives.
A: I'm proud of the bipartisan effort that I've made on many issues with Democrats & Republicans, ranging from Joe Lieberman on 9/11 to working on the other side of the aisle on immigration reform and others. And that's why I think I'm prepared to be president of the US. The American people want us to work together on issues that are important to the American people. That's my record.
Q: You think you're going to get a deal.
A: I think we're very close to it, and I'm very pleased to see that we have a number of the more conservative Republicans engaged in this effort, as well as people on the other side of the aisle.
Source: Meet the Press: 2007 "Meet the Candidates" series May 13, 2007
Change rule barring immigrants from running for president
Q: Should we change our Constitution to allow men like Mel Martinez, born in Cuba, and Arnold Schwarzenegger, born in Austria, to stand here some night as candidates for president?
HUNTER: We haven't seen his endorsement yet. That's a no.
GILMORE: No, I want to amend this Constitution in a variety of different ways, and this would be not a good start to do it that way.
McCAIN: He and I have many similar attributes, so I have to seriously consider it.
Source: 2007 GOP primary debate, at Reagan library, hosted by MSNBC May 3, 2007
Comprehensive reform requires temporary worker program
TANCREDO: The issue of immigration reform and what's going to happen to this country unless we deal with this forthrightly--no more platitudes, no more obfuscating with using words like, well, I am not for amnesty, but I am for letting them stay. That kind of stuff has got to be taken away from the political debate, as far as I'm concerned, so people can understand exactly who is where on this incredibly important issue.
McCAIN: We've been working very hard for a couple of months with Democrats and Republicans, led by the president and his Cabinet, to come up with a comprehensive solution and resolution of this terrible problem of illegal immigration. One thing we would all agree on, the status quo is not acceptable. We have to secure our borders. But we also need a temporary worker program, and we have to dispose of the issue of 12 million people who are in this country illegally. This issue needs to be addressed comprehensively.
Source: 2007 GOP primary debate, at Reagan library, hosted by MSNBC May 3, 2007
Comprehensive reform must include border security first
Q: You sponsored a bill with Ted Kennedy that included a guest worker program and a path to earned citizenship. Do you still support McCain-Kennedy?
A: I support many of the concepts in it. It didn't pass. The legislation didn't pass. So we've been sitting down and doing intensive negotiations with the president, with other conservative Republicans and Senator Kennedy to come up with something that will. It certainly is going to be a comprehensive proposal. And it certainly will be border enforcement as the first and foremost priority.
Q: Border enforcement before the other parts of the package?
A: Not before, but certainly there has to be the assurance that all necessary measures are being taken in order to secure our border. Americans deserve that. Americans deserve border security, and we can't ignore that aspect of it. Our borders are broken. I think we all know that.
Source: Fox News Sunday: 2007 "Choosing the President" interviews Apr 2, 2007
I've never supported amnesty
I've never supported amnesty. A few nights ago, Sen. Lieberman & I had a town hall meeting together. It was a rather unusual event. The issue came up. Lieberman said, McCain has never supported amnesty & anybody says that he does is a liar, is lying. No better authority than Gov. Romney believed that it's not amnesty because two years ago, he was asked, and he said that my plan was, quote, "reasonable, and was not amnesty." It's a matter of record. Learn English, back of the line behind everybody else.
Source: 2008 Facebook/WMUR-NH Republican primary debate Jan 5, 2006
We have to secure the borders first
We have to secure the borders first. As president, I will have the border state governors certify that those borders are secure. Secretary Chertoff said that there's 2 million people in this country illegally who have committed crimes. Those people have to be deported immediately. I believe we need a temporary worker program. One with an electronic employment verification system and tamper-proof biometric documents, and any employer who employs someone in any other way will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. This is a national security issue. We have to secure our borders. We have to address it in as humane and compassionate an issue as possible. We have to respect our nation's security requirements. It's time Republican and Democrat sat down together and resolved this issue. Because if you've got broken borders, and if you have 12 million people here illegally, then, obviously, you have de facto amnesty. It is a federal responsibility.
Source: 2008 Facebook/WMUR-NH Republican primary debate Jan 5, 2006
Make possible for immigrants to do a job Americans won't do
Things are terrible, and we've got to fix it. But we're not going to fix it until we have comprehensive immigration reform. When there's a demand, there's going to be a supply. There are jobs that Americans will not do, so we have to make it possible for someone to come to this country to do a job that an American won't do and then go back to the country from where they came.
Source: AZ Senate Debate, in Tucson Citizen Oct 16, 2004
Give everyone in the world an opportunity to come to America
Those who live closest are the ones who can get here. Everyone in the world should have the opportunity through an orderly process to come to this country.
Source: AZ Senate Debate, in Tucson Citizen Oct 16, 2004
1988: Honored by La Raza for opposing official English
McCain attacked Proposition 106, a statewide referendum that was being advanced by the so-called English-only movement. McCain told the teachers, "Why would we want to pass some kind of initiative that a significant portion of our population considers an assault on their heritage?"
Because of his position on the English-only initiative and his willingness to fight for a pluralistic American culture, McCain was one of 10 members of congress who were honored by the National Council of La Raza, a nationwide coalition of Hispanic organizations. In a speech at a ceremony in Washington, before an audience of 500, McCain again attacked English-only initiatives. "The building of our great nation is not the work of immigrants from one or two countries, McCain said, "Our nation and the English language have done quite well with Chinese spoken in California, German in Pennsylvania, Italian in New York, Swedish in Minnesota, and Spanish throughout the Southwest. I fail to see the cause for alarm now."
Source: Man of the People, by Paul Alexander, p.122-123 Jan 19, 2004
More help for legal immigrants when immigrating & once here
McCain supports the following principles regarding immigration:
Increase the eligibility of legal immigrants for certain social programs
Provide extra federal aid to states with higher numbers of immigrants for necessary medical and social services
Prohibit states from passing laws that deny human services to illegal immigrants or their children
Increase the immigration quota for computer scientists and other information technology workers.
Source: Project Vote Smart, 1998, www.vote-smart.org Jul 2, 1998
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/31/2008 12:57:35 AM | re: msg 313:
There are a couple big cities in Alaska(Fairbanks and Anchorage) which are sanctuary cities for illegal aliens. You may or may not be aware that sanctuary cities are in violation of a federal law that Clinton signed in 1996. As governor of Alaska, Palin should have been doing something to fix that, but she didn't do anything about it as if she didn't care at all. Therefore, it seems by her inaction, she does have views on illegal immigration(which she does not talk about or make known publicly). McCain wanted a vp as weak as he was on illegal immigration, and it seems he chose the right person for the job.
And it seems McCain lied when he said he never supported amnesty for illegal aliens and never would. Check this link
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/01/05/video-liebs-says-mccain-did-not-support-amnesty-for-illegal-aliens/
Also, to give somewhat of a counterpoint to what you posted, check these link here for more info on McCains positions on the subject of illegal immigration(as well as other presidential candidates)
http://www.betterimmigration.com/candidates/2006/prez2008.html
http://www.betterimmigration.com/candidates/2006/McCainPres08.htm | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/31/2008 8:58:25 AM | "In response to msg. 305 in this thread, that article does not talk about the massive abuse and fraud associated with the work visa system in this country, where foreign workers are brought in instead of hiring available American citizen workers. I've talked to people who I know well who have seen it firsthand. The greedy and unscrupulous boss will tell the H.R. director to pass over the American workers who apllied for the jobs and just bring in the foreign workers on work visa who will work for less pay than American citizen workers are willing to, as well as no benefits. There is a limit to how many visas can be used, and when they run out, the greedy and unscrupulous bosses complain and make it sound like its the end of the world, because they don't want to be forced into hiring American citizen workers who want decent pay and at least some kind of benefits. "
Redwood,
On this we are in agreement 100%! I have been trying to get people who insist on scapegoating the undocumented workers (mostly Mexicans,) to understand that the problem is not that simple. Many, a large percentage at least, of those people who come here initially with a visa (temporary work permit, or exchange student visa) end up overstaying (because they need to recoup their initial investment in getting a visa) before they will consider returning to their country. The employers are delighted to have them because they undercut the local job-seekers.
The reason for posting the article is to illustrate for people ( those who keep on posting that as soon as the "illegal aliens" are deported the local workers that are looking for a job will be filling those open positions) that the problem is a little bit more complex than what their ideology permits them to understand. If you had read the many posts that I have contributed in this forum, you would see that what you are saying in the quote above is one of the points that I have brought more than a couple of times. I am not asking you to go back and check it out for yourself, but believe me when I say that we are in agreement on that aspect of the issue.
I think that we don't have many different views on what the real issue is. My strongest objections are to those, who for reasons that are beyond my ability to understand, insist on promoting measures centered mostly on the scapegoating of the most vulnerable people. Besides that, I am hopeful that Obama, should he win, will carry out the enforcement of the laws against greedy employers. I believe that he is not tainted by the failed policy of the past 30 years. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 9/1/2008 7:27:14 PM | Like I had stated before....Arguing about the daily idiosynchrocies that illegal immigration effects the lives of each and every one of us is pointless unless you have a thorough understanding of the political and corporate dynamics that are at play here.
I could go on and write pages about this subject but I literally don't have the time nor patience and would more than likely be diswayed by commentaries that would deflect the core issue at hand.
Please understand in full how this current administration George W. Bush and his constituents have deceived the American public and literally betrayed this country for the sake of corporte America.
Fully understand the N.A.F.T.A agreement and how its impact on illegal immigration has left this country in disarray.
It's easy.....just google it and then come to your own concensus.
Don't be racist...educate yourselves. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 9/1/2008 8:43:29 PM | | ^^^^^ I second that motion. People should know about the system that it is in place now. Just ranting because you or people you know doesn't help anybody, especially if the only thing that you want to do is scapegoat those that you think you can hurt without any consequences. Heck, I am hurting as much as anybody else (advanced age, unemployed) but that is not going to make me turn against the ones that I think I could kick around. Have you seen in this thread anyone saying: "Look, I am an illegal mexican here, and you are #$%^&*(!" | |
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cashu
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Joined: 7/4/2007
Msg: 318 | |
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 9/1/2008 10:51:40 PM | YOU ONLY STARTED ON THIS . YOU HAVEN,T TOUCHED THE PART WHERE OUR WAGES ARE BEING HELD DOWN BECAUSE OF THEM .. WHERE OUR KIDS AREN,T GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET A DECENT JOB BECAUSE OF THEM . OH BAMA SAYS HES GOING TO USE A REPUBLICAIN CURE ON THEM . HES GOING TO GET RID OF THE LAW BREAKERS BY MAKEING THEM ALL LEGAL .. REALY NICE OF THEM ANI,T IT .. BUT MCCAIN THE SUPER PATRIOT SAYS HES GOING TO MAKE THEM GO HOME AND RETURN AFTER PAYING A BRIBE ... BUT HES TO BIG OF A PUNK TO DO THAT ...
THAT MONEY NUMBER OF THE COST TO DEPORT THEM IS WRONG .. WHEN WE GET RID OF THEM AND PUT THE EMPLOYERS IN PRISON WITH ALL THE OTHER RATS WE CAN TAKE THERE PROPERTY AND SELL TO RECOUPE THE COST OF MOVEING THEM ..
BUT THE TRU TH IS WE DIDN,T ASK THEM TO COME WHY SHOULD WE PAY FOR IT ,..PUT THE EMPLOYERS IN JAIL AND LET THEM WALK OUT ...
WE NEED TO GET RID OF THE POLITICAINS OUT OF OFFICE WHO DON,T OBEY THE LAW . DO WE THE PEOPLE REALLY WANT PEOPLE IN THE GOVERMENT WHO FEEL NO NEED TO OBEY THE LAW OF THE LAND OR PROTECT OUR PEOPLE ... THEY ONLY WENT AFTER SADUM BECAUSE HE TOOK A SHOT GEOGRE SENIOR .. OVER 4000 GOOD PEOPLE HAVE LOST THE LIFES OVER THAT BUT WE ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGHT FOR THEM TO GET RID OF THE ILLEGALS FOR THE GOOD OF THE COUNTRY . AND SENCE WHEN DOES SITTING IN A PRISON MAKE YOU A HERO . IT USE TO BE THE GUY WHO THREW HIM SELF ON A HANDGRANADE . OR TOOK A MACHINE GUN BY HIM SELF OR LEAD HIS MEN IN THE FACE OF DEATH . THINGS LIKE THAT .. I DON,T LIKE SAYING THIS BECAUSE HE WAS ON OUR SIDE AND WHEN CALLED ON STOOD UP AND STEPPED FORWARD .. AND BEING IN A PRISON IS TOUGH BUT A NATIONAL HERO ?????.. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 9/2/2008 4:39:13 AM | ^^^^^^ It looks like you haven't read much in this thread. Almost everybody is in agreement that we have a problem in our economy, and one of the important factors is the negative effect that undocumented workers have because it helps the employers to keep wages down and avoid giving benefits to their employees as much as they can. We also should learn to take into account that the low wages that the undocumented receive for their labor is a contribution to the economy by keeping the cost of produce and other items low enough to compete with the products from other countries. If it wasn't for the cheap labor provided by the undocumented workers it wouldn't take too long for our markets to be flooded with foreign produce, not only during the winter months, but all year round.
We know there is a problem. Some people should learn a lot more about it so that they can contribute to the solution. Do you have a new, good idea as to how we can solve this problem? | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 9/9/2008 7:08:35 PM | Here is a pretty good article that opens up another point I don't think we have touched on in this discussion (as well as a few others). But the main meat of the article (at least as I see it) is about how U.S. bills that could actually help our people out are getting vetoed because of illegal immigration.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/political_commentary/commentary_by_froma_harrop/immigrants_and_the_safety_net
I think this raises yet another point that until something is done about illegal immigration our country will continue to suffer. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 9/10/2008 8:54:16 AM |
Here is a pretty good article that opens up another point I don't think we have touched on in this discussion (as well as a few others). But the main meat of the article (at least as I see it) is about how U.S. bills that could actually help our people out are getting vetoed because of illegal immigration
Keep on blaming the "illegals" for everything! Do you have nightmares very often?
Your link is just another piece of jingoistic blabber, just like your false declarations of loving acceptance of "legal" immigrants. Pure double-talk!
Here is a paragraph of the link, which could give you a very good explanation why bills like those will not have good chances of passing in congress:
"Singling out 10 million working-class children as the one group unworthy of a government insurance program would seem beyond the moral pale, but the Bush administration has always had a warped idea of right and not right. As for the immigration angle, the bill wouldn't have covered legal aliens, much less illegal ones."
I will hi-lite the last sentence so you can see a very likely explanation of why it would not pass:
"As for the immigration angle, the bill wouldn't have covered legal aliens, much less illegal ones."
And in case that you don't get it, let me tell you what is the problem with that bill: it "wouldn't have covered legal aliens." But, many posters here have been saying that they love legal immigrants, and that the legal immigrants have all the rights because they pay taxes, etc. And many would love to push a wedge between the legals and the illegals, so that the legals would be the battering-ram that they could use against the illegals! Well, there you have it in clear print. When it comes to being fair to immigrants they forget all their high-minded values, and they just go forward trying to legalize discrimination and racism. Fortunately there are still people in congress that will not allow that to happen. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 9/10/2008 10:14:10 AM |
Even a small reduction in the number of people who come to work here legally may create a serious disruption, and the local people aren't filling those jobs because they don't offer enough pay, nor benefits.
In a free market, what's supposed to happen is that employers start paying more for the jobs they're trying to fill.
Some claim "we need more immigrants, because there are jobs Americans won't do".
I think it's more accurate to say that there are jobs employers won't pay Americans to do. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 9/10/2008 11:01:15 AM | As far as I know, the minimum wage is 6.55 U.S. dollars on average, depending on which state you are at. IT WON'T INCREASE UNTIL JULY OF NEXT YEAR to 7.25. .... Most of the people I know or I have acquaintance over the years, MAKES MORE THAN THAT!!! citizens or "illegals" alike. NO DIFFERENCE. You don't seriously believe the minimum wages are going to be increased overnight just because and if, as some people put it, "we get rid of the "illegals"... Do You..?? About 10 years ago, right before the INTERNET BUSSINES crash. THERE were MANY Asians coming to America to fill the demand for those jobs. Specially from India. I happened to met a few of them, "illegals" included. They were making BBIIIIIGGGGG bucks!!! Hell, I knew of a few teenagers who were my neighbors at the time, who were making between 18 and 30 dollars/hour. Anyway, right after the INTERNET CRASH, MOST of those Indian nationals, Went back to India because there were lost of jobs available in INDIA, with just about the same pay rate they were getting here in the States. As I said, some of them were "illegals". As far as I know, AFTER they left, the minimum wage CONTINUED to BE THE SAME..!! Unless I am missing something, I don't see ANY co-relation between "illegals" and minimum wages...  | |
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