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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/5/2008 10:11:02 PM | American policy directly contributed to the loss of mexican jobs. that is a fact.
if you're not going to enforce your own immigration laws, then you might want to construct your policies to contribute to your neighbor's economic health.
however, the same administrations who directed those policies are the same ones who are responsible for the lack of immigration enforcement.
we forced mexico to relax it's currency controls, signed trade deals with china, and don't enforce immigration controls for the same reason. corporate profits. and the result has exacerbated illegal immigration. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/6/2008 3:20:22 AM | | The problem with the issuse some people have this mindset that immigration is wrecking America wrong. People blame immigration for the lack of jobs, but the truth is some people perfer to keep migrants illegal workers so those base of workers can undercut the wages of workers that are natural born citizens. You think 1950s style deportation of 12 million people will work it wont work period. Fence is a joke its already been repaired 2000 times so far because it easy to buy ocycleyline trouch to cut a hole thru a fence. The problem is complex and nativists wing of the GOP makes me puke because they praise markets but do the exact opposite when it comes to immigration. The inflation occuring right now in food costs in the Untied States is partly because of the immigration raids at farms and factories. Bush was 100% correct on immigration and saw them as human beings. Talk radio costs like Linbaughs and Hannity distorted the immigration reform was disgusting to hear. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/6/2008 6:40:29 AM | Der Stab.......
Quote:
I want to add to your post by attempting to put illegal immigration into proper perspective. Let's take a look at our country before we became the United States. That was when we were under the rule of Great Britian. What did the English do? The British Empire spread the culture of prosperity around the globe
Response:
LOL was that before or after they slaughtered your family. And of course we know how empires stand the test of time. We are in the midst of a World Empire under takiung right now. And population shifts are part of that effort.
Der Stab ......
What are you talking about? Who slaughtered my family? I don't get it???? | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/6/2008 6:48:06 AM | Manerider......
You present a lot of food for thought. It is a well-known fact, as you so aptly put it, "we have two parties dedicated to exploiting .... illegals," and they are going to continue to do so. The Democrats pander to the Hispanic vote by giving the illegals everything and anything, and the Republicans want illegals for minimum wage jobs. So, unless "we throw all the bums out" of both parties, nothing will be done about this problem. | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 32 | |
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/6/2008 7:37:49 AM | ^^ Then nothing will be done. Because that's not going to happen. America is, for the foreseeable future, stuck in neutral with the two-party-only system. Yes, granted, 3rd parties are allowed, but this country's Republic system is really not designed for any sort of 3+ parties as in the (IMO actually better) parliamentary democracies where there is firstly no "electoral college" potentially blocking the truly most democratic vote count, and secondly far more than just the reps of only 2 parties (which are on many issues 2 sides of the same coin in all honesty) can be elected to parliament. And coalitions have to be formed for greater cooperation and democracy, and so on.
And furthermore, w/a bankrupt administration like this one, their gov't would have collapsed a few years back, at least, and been long gone by now. Here we have to suffer with them for 4 - 8 full years, combined with absolutely no term limits on the Congresspeople (many or most of whom are in the pockets of Big Business and lobby interests anyway).
So , it's a limited (and limiting) form of democracy we have here. It is a liberal democracy, no doubt, because its bill of rights thankfully guarantees us freedom of speech and so on, freedom to dissent, etc, but the amount of actual input from the real people is in reality quite limited. It turns out in practice more like a corporatist/military-industrialist plutocracy, really, where the ruling class simply allows the people to squawk and protest and write whatever they want...so long as they don't ever get violent or actually threaten the status quo system.
No candidate from a party other than either of the two "approved" ones, who appears to threaten the status quo system, will effectively be "allowed through" the process, basically. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/6/2008 7:52:53 AM | Nero1.....
Nothing left to say .... you said it all ..... particulary your last sentence, which I will quote "No candidate from a party other than either of the two "approved" ones, who appears to threaten the status quo system, will effectively be "allowed through" the process, basically.
Kudos to you! | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/6/2008 8:16:22 AM | I dont understand why there arent more treaties with other governments for us to be able to deport their citizens, or why that has to be on our dime while they seem to have no responsibility.
Why cant the wheels be greased so that after due process, we can evict people who are undocumented and dangerous?
I read recently about a poor Guatamalan fellow who was run over somewhere in the US and the hospital was stuck with him for a year and a half or so, in and out of comas, etc. and had to go to extraordinary efforts to get our own government to act, which it never really did, and virtually NO cooperation from this man's home country.
The hospital was glad to take care of him, he did no wrong, but they just could not afford it for so long as a charity case .......why couldnt our country act on some treaty to have his country come and take him once he was able to leave AND one of these two wonderful countries reimburse that hospital for its care?
Government is failing us, all over. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/6/2008 10:28:47 PM | TheStefano......
You do not understand why there aren't more treaties with other governments for us to be able to deport their citizens? It is because other countries are smarter than we are .... Cuba for instance .... remember how Castro dumped all his country's dangerous criminals and the insane into boats and threw them out to sea in the direction of the USA. Tell me why Cuba should have a treaty with us. If they did Castro and/or his brother wouldn't be able to send more undesirables to us.
Also, take Mexico .... they want us to keep their citizens, both the good and the bad. The good work hard and send their money back to Mexico. American dollars being sent into Mexico happens to be Mexico's third most important item. And as far as Mexico's criminals are concerned, Mexico doesn't want them back, so why should they have a treaty with us.
I could go on and on, but I think you have the picture. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/7/2008 1:52:02 AM | i agree with the first post, we have been sold out...
i live in texas and i still see vans dropping loads of immigrants down old oil well roads. and they scatter like locust.
i do not think that the bottom feeder syndrome is happening, true they have taken over the work on hways and fast food restaurants, they have been able to build construction projects cheaper for businesses...
but they are moving up, generation after generation. they will gain serious political power, far more than the blacks ever dreamed of doing...
and the illegals children will be legal, and change the laws as they fit for them.
my town, once was a very beautiful town, but the mexicans have taken over some parts of it, and have trashed it and have graffiti all over it . it sickens me to see the once graceful homes look like back yard trash at a dump.
i know one thing, obama is not for the mexicans even though he will cow tow for their votes. and do what ever he can to be elected again next year...
but for america... he is not a wise choice for any foreign affairs, or any domestic plans. he says no taxes... but because democrate.. he is going to tax the hell out of us for all his joining of countries of mexico and canada.
oh well i am only one vote. and i will exercise it... for its my duty, and you can't gripe unless you actually vote, i say... but it will be a sad election this year, and i thought the last one was bad... lol... | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/7/2008 3:52:28 AM | How pathetic to see you request discussion without accusations of racism being made towards you and then you proceed to talk about 'the greatest threat to our civilisation, banana republics, Americans dying in ambulances and every other untruth about them you can think off.
We will stop pointing out your inveterate racism when you stop spouting it as if the things you say were actually true.
There is little or no discussion in your media about the things you say the illegals are responsible for because they are no more responsible for them than anyone else. Yours is a country that is rapidly heading towards economic bankruptcy, crime ridden, lacking in any form of coherent plan for the future and if what I read in these forums is anything to go by, hate filled and ill educated.
Your observations about your health care crisis is nonsense. Your health care system is failing big time and it's got nothing to do with the 2% additional costs the migrants cause. Rather than do anything to address the problems you seek to blame the poorest and most disadvantaged for your problems. You have created your health care system and quite frankly it's rubbish. Always was and always will be because it's all about profit and greed.
Your suggestions of repatriation and removal of health care provision is idiotic and dangerously ill-thought through. When it all boils down to the final analysis it's always about money and never about doing whats right. Having the most of everything isn't enough for you, you want the little bit they have too. You want it all.
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/7/2008 7:57:45 AM | Then show me your proof. Show me your crime statistics where illegals are committing these crimes at the level you suggest. Show me your proof on the excessive burdens on your health service being made by illegals.
*While you are certainly entitled your opinion on these forums, I insist the hyperbole get ratcheted down right now. Do not address each other - ADDRESS THE TOPIC ONLY! This type of discussion has the propensity to easily devolve into a flame-war so stay on point and keep it factual or it will get locked up. Any agenda driven soapboxing or unsubstantiated ranting from nutters with a personal axe to grind will see swift action to remove their posting privileges - that means no sweeping generalizations. If you have a point to make, prove it or keep it under your hat.* TheMadFiddler - PoF Forum Moderator | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/7/2008 12:04:43 PM |
Then show me your proof. Show me your proof on the excessive burdens on your health service being made by illegals.
Never once have I seen verifiable url's to support this posters accusations. Never.
Rather than spewing tripe as to how we're making up these statistics,
it would be adviseable to argue points by adding url's and links to justify those points
one wishes to emphasize. That way, others see what is being argued and with supported evidence. No sense arguing without backup because the majority of readers understand when someone hasn't got the resources to back up their arguement, and resort to slander, and it's always those "special few" who are always responsible for such heinous accusations
I won't delve into copy/pasting every single article, as Im sure they would not be used as verification in the first place. But here's one to satisfy the "vile-spirited ones" thirst for knowledge.
Source
http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000060.html
Illegal Aliens Drive Another Hospital to Closure
Here's a nice article from the New York Times on the recent announcement by Northridge Hospital Medical Center that they will be closing by December 31.
This follows a recent announcement of the closure of the emergency room at Elastar Community Hospital in East Los Angeles.
Four other emergency rooms have closed in the county in the last two years. The reason given is the high cost of treating uninsured people. The article also states that 70 hospital emergency rooms and trauma centers have closed in California since 1990.
"We're mandated to treat anyone who comes in through those doors, regardless of their ability to pay," Tracey Veal, a spokeswoman for the Northridge hospital, said.
Ms. Veal estimated that the hospital had spent $13 million on so-called charity care in the fiscal year that ended on June 30.
While the New York Times does not exactly specify illegal aliens as the cause, it is quite obvious by these numbers.
"This is definitely cause for alarm," Carol Meyer, director of the Los Angeles County Emergency Medical Services Agency, said on Friday in an interview.
Ms. Meyer said 30 percent of the nine million people in the county were underinsured or had no medical insurance at all. Statewide, seven million people are uninsured, according to the California Medical Association.
So, lets break these numbers down. 30% of 9 million is about 3.3 million people or nearly half of the 7 million in California that are uninsured, That's just in their county.
While everyones health insurance goes up to cover the uninsured, we get poorer and poorer service. If you pay your insurance on time for coverage for you or your family and there is an emergency you may just end up having to drive an extra 10-15 miles to get to an emergency room. Upon arriving you may be in line behind someone who doesn't pay, but expects the same services you receive.
Something has to be done of course. Illegal aliens receiving this free service should be number one on the list. Preventing illegals from being here in the first place is a law after all. Hospitals should be able to note whether someone is here illegally. The only way to tackle the issues is with full disclosure and good input data. If you don't know the breakdown of why someone is uninsured how can you fix the problem?
The county estimates the cost of providing them with health care is $340 million annually.
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/7/2008 1:01:23 PM | Only 15% of uninsured people in America are illegal immigrants. So that makes the cost some $51 million. Hardly breaking the bank for a nation with a 20 trillion economy especially given that their requirements are usually emergency care such as pregnancy, broken bones and tissue damage requiring stitches. If they had better access to care the severity of the problems your health care system has to deal with would reduce and therefore the costs too.
Denying health care to these people would help your failing system very little. Since your health system cannot now cope with this small increase in it's demand it is evident that the problem lies with poor quality service and it would be equally failing if that demand had been caused by home grown nationals.
If viagra not only made you horny but made you 100% more fertile for women as well as men, that 12 million people could be full born American citizens and your health care system still wouldn't be unable to cope.
Making provision for people who need basic emergency medical attention should not be about money or about status. If it's needed it should be given, otherwise you will have women giving birth in the slums they have to live in and the infant mortality rate would rise exponentially until it compared with third world countries. Most of your politicians know that and I would suggest that is why it's never going to be an open campaigning issue, because to do the things that are being suggested lacks humanity and compassion and any such action would be seen as primitive and inhuman. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/7/2008 1:03:46 PM | One more concept
We will stop pointing out your inveterate racism when you stop spouting it as if the things you say were actually true.
With regard to the election, I see no correlation with this posting.
(from the opening post) Again, I'm amazed this hasn't been brought up in other threads, so while we debate how well each candidate speaks in front of crowds, or whether or not Nader is going to swing any votes, or if McCain's age is an issue, or if Obama is really half white .......( ), how do you feel illegal immigration is going to impact the election?
Feel free to comment on the topic or refrain from posting.
And in case there's an overwhelming need to vocalize, do feel free to open a thread all alone. Maybe someone will be enchanted and charmed so as to offer input.
Your's truly
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/7/2008 9:46:04 PM | Beachbum 1960.......
It is my understanding that you are from England. Therefore, it is most likely that you do not see American cable TV or read our newspapers on a daily basis. Therefore, you have no right to hurl accusations of racism just because most Americans are fed up with illegal aliens over-burdening our economic system. It has nothing to do with racism; it is a matter of rule of law. I will explain that to you. It means Americans don't want to pay for health care for people in our country illegally. We also do not want to to use taxpayer dollars to fund illegals' housing, education, food stamps, and on and on into infinity.
Additionally, if you were an American citizen and heard the news of our country regularly, you would know that there have been many Americans who lived in border towns/cities whose hospitals were closed down, because of illegals over-taxing the system, who died enroute in ambulances to hospitals inordinately far from their homes. You would also be aware of the horrific murders, DUI's, rapes and robberies some of these illegals have committed.
Please remember that according to your profile, you are not an American citizen and your saying that all Americans care about is money is slanderous, not warranted or appreciated. Furthermore, who are you, man from another country, to tell Americans that we are supposed to provide health insurance for illegal aliens, which by the way is a lot more than the 51 million dollar figure you have plucked out of your imagination.
Another point is Americans are not pathetic. I believed we proved that to you back in 1776, so let's not throw that word around, unless you are using it as an adjective to describe yourself.
I am not going to go into it since we are discussing America and not Great Britian, but didn't your country have riots when "foreigners" came into England and tried to get access to benefits that were intended for British citizens. (rhetoric) Americans have never behaved in that manner. So before you criticize our country, clean up yours! | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/7/2008 10:14:48 PM | Yeah you, what she said^^^^^^^
I have to laugh. It's a very sad state of affairs here, which is the first in my lifetime that I've seen things so bad. I don't feel bad when I mess something up, I take responsibility, clean the mess up, and move on. But this is out of my hands, and it's not something I personally can correct. So when I find such pathetic bile being retorted, as witnessed on this page, I really have no choice but to laugh.
It's alright, Marieleah, he'll disappear for a while, it'll be quiet for maybe a few days, and then he'll fly back in. He reminds me of a seagull that storms through an open window, squawking obsenities, shitting all over the walls and furniture, knocking things over, and finally retreating through the open window. I suppose without giving people the opportunity to voice their opinions, we wouldn't be able to do so either. And quite honestly, I've all but ignored his post. He's apparently been warned, which is good enough for me. But trust me, he'll eventually fly back in; might be tomorrow, might be next week, but he'll return with more rubbish. I suggest everyone just disregard such nonsense, as that poster lives among the highest living standards on earth, so it's rich to hear how we should be more accomodating. It's laughable. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/8/2008 4:43:55 PM | Marieleah
I typically refrain from petty nonsense and using names you've noted. It really does little good.
I've tried bringing a subject to light that apprently gets little response, namely because most people feel neither party is going to attempt to change the situation. Meanwhile, in the course of this (perhaps weeklong) thread another 21,000-50,000 illegals crossed our border, depending on whose count one uses. The fact is, mexican officials have crossed into American soil 42 times and held our border patrolmen at gun point, one recently making news tonight.
The bottom line is, laws serve no real purpose unless they're enforced, which obviously, our government selectively chooses to ignore those regarding illegal aliens crossing our border. They may capture and deport hundreds per week, but thousands more just filter by. And according to StrongDad, their governement even publishes illustrations as to guide routes in ourder for them to gain access easily.
In light of the present economic struggle we're facing right now, it would seem immensely important to try and stem the tide of illegals, as they do cost the people here, indigenous people or legal immigrants, lots of money. I could not fathom being in those border areas or parts of California that are so densely populated. As one person once remarked about Miami, "would the last American out of Miami please bring the flag." Funny that was, many years ago, but today, it's obviously not just Miami, it's actross the map. I'm in Ga, and it's becoming a major issue here, but it just continues to fester. I guess the only thing to do is be prepared to make changes because it's really driven my ability to make a living into the dirt. And BTW, I apologize if I offended you by using any course language.
Cheers | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/9/2008 4:05:36 AM | marieleah,
Your right in some ways, I should stop comparing what I hear in here to the Nazi's in 1930's Germany. Even Hitler never advocated the killing of his own people as some do in here when refering to the America babies born to these immigrants.
I am very acutley aware of the difficulties your country faces during these difficult economic times and I have every sympathy for you all. You are however not alone in these difficulties. Every country on earth is feeling the effects of the current credit crunch and the increased costs of food and energy these days. No-one is immune but very few nations are actually advocating the genocidal actions talked about in here and other threads on immigration.
It is only in these threads do I hear anyone talking about causing the deaths of a minority people as a solution to their problems. If you are content to see people die as a means of relieving the burden on your health service, you would be better to try and implement a programme of compulsary euthenasia for people over the age of say 60. The cost of providing health care to this section of your population is some 15 times higher than the immigrants cost. This will save you much more money and help your country more than killing off the younger and much fitter working age people or the new born Americans you call anchor babies. Alternatively you might want to look at the issue of obesity, again the costs to your health service for this and the coronary health problems it causes far outweigh the cost of providing emergency health care to the immigrants. The number one cost to you is the money paid to your pharmacutical companies who quite frankly rip you off big time, just like they do here.
Maybe you and I have been brought up to have a different understanding of what rascism is. Me, when I hear suggestions that health care be taken away from those who need it most just because they have committed some 'non-crime' such as entering your country illegally, I cannot see that as anything other than rascist.
Your country spend more money per capita on health care than any other nation on earth. Some 20% of your GDP which equates to $20.25 billion annually. Since there are some 10 million illegals, of which nearly 40% do have some form of health care and there are 47 million people without health care in total. You do the math and tell me what the real cost of immigrant care is. It's not the number one major cost to you that you think it is when compared to other expenses in health care.
The reason I don't post links to support my assertions is beacuse the data I use is just as ridiculous and wrong as the data you and others use. You have no idea how many illegals are in your country right now so it's impossible for anyone to claim their numbers are correct. I take mine from your governmet and it's various departments. Whilst I am sure that they also do have some agenda to follow I suspect their data is far more accurate than those provided by the blatantly anti immigration and racist web pages I am often direct to in here. (And yes, I do follow up on most of them).
Most of the other things you mention about crime are probably true to some degree. It is hard to immagine that the poorest people in any community would not commit their fair share of crimes. But again the data supplied by your government shows that most crime, murders, rapes etc are committed by Americans, usually white Americans too. These type of unfounded claims against the immigrants are all to common, here as well as there. many are so well used now that they have become what is known as urban myths. If something gets said often enough then people start to believe it. Take a quick look around some of the German 1930's propaganda material readily available on the web and you will see exactly the same thing being said there to demonise the Jewish people in preparation for the horrors that were to follow. This dehumanisation, which is what the label 'illegal' is, led to the holocaust. Do not think it could not happen there either. It's a small step from where you are to actually trying to 'do something' about it. Stop using the word 'illegal' and use the word human and you will see what I mean.
Things here in the UK are difficult too but we haven't had the riots you mentioned, not yet anyway. But we do have our fair share of people advocating the things mentioned in here and I do take every opportunity to stand up to them too. Fortunately for us, writing the things that are written in here would constitute a criminal offence and would lead to their arrest and a visit to the courts. I appreciate that the American version of freedom of speech does not limit or control hate speech, but I personally will try and rebuff such talk wherever I see it.
As for the original question. What effect will it have on the upcoming election, not much, not unless someone does something pretty drastic to put it right up there alongside the more important issues you face right now. As for the next election?, maybe. depends on how president Obama's foriegn policy successes go down at home and how long the current financial crisis continues. The one where it will have the most effect is 2020. Thats when these anchor babies will reach the age of majority and given that they will be educated well enough to write a X, I am sure they will do so, right next to the box called NAU.
Thats my view anyway. No more postiong in this thread for me now. Enjoy. Stephen | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/10/2008 9:58:24 AM | I agree completely with Marieleah's series of thoughtful and well-written posts, except to note that Brandeis was not an immigrant-- you are probably thinking of Frankfurter.
As for the original question: unfortunately, the illegal immigration issue was not as big a factor in the GOP primary as I had hoped; and it will be a non-factor in the election, as both Obama and McCain are firmly in the open-borders camp. We have rocketed past 300 million people; how much is enough?? 400 million? 500 million? What about our resources and quality of life? Is everything really just about the almighty dollar and getting pigs slaughtered and lettuce sold for a few cents less?
I agree I can't believe how Britain, never a nation of immigrants, has voluntarily turned itself into such a demographic miasma (trying to avoid more scatological words). | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/10/2008 10:30:33 AM | Eight million illegal immigrants pay Social Security, Medicare, and Income Taxes.
Since the 1996 Welfare reform bill went into effect, no illegals receive food stamps, welfare, housing assistance, medicaid or medicare.
Ten percent of the Social Security surplus (the outfit that pays all that above stuff) is due to illegals paying into a system they'll never benefit from -- the government here is actually *making* money from the illegals, not the other way around.
Just thought I'd toss that one in. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/10/2008 11:51:30 AM | I will gladly pay more for a tomato, if I can pay less for auto insurance, which illegal aliens cause to be higher. Why do you think we need so much uninsured motorist insurance, especially in Southern California? Yep. You guessed it. Illegal aliens jack the rates. I would also like to see some savings in healthcare. Yep. They jack those rates, too. Just like a shoplifter jacks the prices of goods THEY steal. I would be glad to pay more for all my produce. The money I would save on healthcare, health insurance, auto insurance, home owners insurance, housing prices, transportion, gasoline, police services, fire services, EMT services, court services, prison services, county jail services, education, crime, would all go nicely to my lettuce and tomato budget.
It is a complete MYTH that illegal aliens produce more money than they take. Considering what they earn, JUST the cost in educating their children alone, negates any and everything they "contribute". Then, add all the other areas where they negatively affect costs, which I listed above. Enjoy.
SD | |
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