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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/11/2008 10:31:03 AM | Open the gates completely. Hiliarious. How many people can you take into your home in such an irresponsible manner? When you plan your life, do you just keep having kids without any consideration to what you can afford?
Such a policy is naive and ignorant. It also completely ignores what is going on.
That invitation to mi barrio is still good.
SD | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/11/2008 11:12:09 AM | No, it is well thought out. I have only recently completed my opinion on the subject actually.
eeeo4U;
I agree, they want to export their criminals. hell, it has been a long standing tradition. Australia was formed with that in mind. I actually think your idea has some plausibility.
The xenophobes don't get it, immigration is going to happen. Why not embrace it, make it easier and use it as an opportunity to track them. It getss rid of the slave issues, the sexual abuse, the murders, the coyotes, the fence, the extra law enforcement, the militaristic attitude, the hatred for excusionary practices, etc.
Yes, by all means, open the door. They're going to come anyway. Let's make sure they're earning at least minimum, that they're not slaves, and that they have a chance to become a citizen if they want. They could choose temporary, if it is seasonal, or pseudo-permanent if it isn't. We would be able to track them better.
Win/win situation. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/11/2008 12:38:51 PM | Xenophobes. When you lose a debate, or are out of gas, resort to name calling. A page right out of the Obama play book.
I have to wonder if people who think this way leave the door to their homes open, too.
Rapists and burglars are going to break in at night anyway, so why not just leave the door open for them? Ridiculous.
SD | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/11/2008 5:17:45 PM | Nice tennis match, BTW
I guess I'm confused because many liberals think opening the flood gates will help, and republicans think we should shore up the border, possibly sending illegal people packing.
I don't see how illegals are helping this Country, financially. According to reports I've read, there's an estimated 338 billion a year that goes to their being here. Considering I work in construction, I see how they've managed taking jobs from hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of legal residents, which is my primary complaint. They also send their money home instead of putting it back into our economy. So I can easily see the arguement against illegal immigration. There are many, I know, such as illegal driving, crime rates up, overburdened hospitals and other such fascilities that offer assistance.
Yet, I consider myself a democrat. I believe in a government that supports the common middle class, over the aristocratic elitist. I believe we should help those in the middle to lower middle class, but NOT give our jobs to illegal aliens or to overseas markets. I believe we should stop outsourcing jobs overseas if we here in America are needing jobs. Right now, big business sends jobs to overseas markets because they'll work for much less. Stateside, jobs are going to those illegal immigrants who offer to work for half of what we're accustomed to working for. It's the capitalistic machinery grinding away at our own economy. This lowers our standard of living and makes it evermore difficult for tax paying citizens to make ends meet. I'd assimilate much of the financial burden we're experiencing right now is attributed to both of these aspects of our life.
Before labeling me a hater, know I've been close to marrying two "legal (visa) working" females from Colombia and Brazil. I don't have any xenophobic fears of foreigners, but I see legal and illegal, black and white, and how that plays a part in my existence and my abilities to provide for my family and myself. I'm sure I speak for many when I say this is a burden we must address from a national level. It's continuation is going to bring this economy to its knees, if it hasn't already shown signs of such deterioration. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/11/2008 5:35:43 PM | I don't think the Liberals believe in opening the Floodgates.
To the contrary, I think many Liberals want the laws enforced because allowing more undocumented workers in degrades our Labor Laws and puts downward pressure on Unions and American wages.
What Liberals want us to do is recognize that through our policies we have essentially welcomed, taxed, and had some benefit from the work done by these undocumented workers and believe that we should not now treat them like criminals. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/11/2008 5:56:33 PM | My point was that right now there is no oversight. Make it simple, if you submit to a background check, you finger print and get aID at the border. Maintain regular updates, with a premium on bilingual (Eng/Sp), then we no longer have to worry about building a five trillion dollar wall.
I once joked with my best friend, a life long Republican, that who did he think was going to be hired to build the wall? Since few of us speak spanish, there would be signs on the south side that said; "Le puerta esta aqui!"
He is bi-lingual, cracked him up!
Xenophobia is the response of those who don't understand the issue completely.
They don't come here because they want to traverse the desert for a few pennies to pick fruit. They do it because htere aren't even any crummy jobs in their own regions. They do it to support their families. They want to work. . . You think the party that on the surface promotes itself as the party of self determination, would respect those who want to work. I guess it is more valuable to have them as the fall guy for their inept economic policies! | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/11/2008 6:00:05 PM | I am all for immigrants coming here legally to work.
I think your "plans" completely ignore the realities of the issues they bring across our border. Again, my invitation to tour L.A. stands.
Come out and see what the real world of illegal immigration looks like.
SD | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/11/2008 6:17:54 PM | Where do you think I live? I live in Phoenix. . . Hello, fourth largest city, 50% hispanic population. . .
Duh!
I think it has just as much impact here as it does there, plus, we have a larger border and a lot more right wing nuts who would hurt them. (Destroying water holes, etc.) | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/12/2008 7:05:35 AM | In response to msg 69, it is a myth that illegals cannot and do not get welfare. Illegal aliens can and do get welfare, even though it is illegal since Clinton passed a law against it in 1996.
Illegal aliens and massive welfare costs
LOS ANGELES COUNTY, Jan. 7, 2008 -- New statistics from the Department of Public Social Services reveal that illegal aliens and their families in Los Angeles County collected over $37 million in welfare and food stamp allocations in November 2007 -- up $3 million from September, according to Los Angeles County Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich.
Twenty five percent of the all welfare and food stamps benefits is going directly to the children of illegal aliens, Antonovich said in a statement.
Illegals collected more than $20 million in welfare assistance for November 2007 and more than $16 million in monthly food stamp allocations for a projected annual cost of $444 million.
“This new information shows an alarming increase in the devastating impact Illegal immigration continues to have on Los Angeles County taxpayers,” Antonovich said.
“With $220 million for public safety, $400 million for healthcare, and $444 million in welfare allocations, the total cost for illegal immigrants to county taxpayers far exceeds $1 billion a year -- not including the millions of dollars for education,” he added.
http://www.mysantaclarita.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=0056848 | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/12/2008 7:41:52 AM | ^^^^ Pretty sobering evidence, redwood.
How 1 California County can afford that kind of debt is hard to fathom. That, on top of fire/rescue svcs., jail sentences, and lost wages, to name a few.
Thanks for the input.
How this isn't garnering electoral attention, and why there isn't more public outcry, simply staggers me. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/12/2008 3:04:55 PM | Mane,
I kind of disagree with your assessment of the link cited. "Sobering evidence" is indicating your acceptance of it as truhtful information. I checked the link and it turns out that it is exactly the same text published in a local website. So, if you read it carefully, you will see that it is a very superficial, and biased report. What you called "sobering evidence" is not the report of the L.A. County government official. It was the article that appeared in the mysantaclarita.com website.
One would have to learn a lot more about the statistical sources used to determine the validity of the numbers used when talking about those issues. My guess is that there may be a lot of fraud in those areas, similar to what the hospitals have been doing with the charges to the government for services to the homeless population, which has been reported lately. It would be very easy to cover some illegal activities by blaming the outlay of funds as welfare money given to "illegal" immigrants.
I don't want to pick a fight with you, but I believe that this issue is quite complicated and we need to know a whole lot more before we become convinced that the "illegals" are the cause of our bigger problems, and we start acting against them. If at all, the actions of our country, government and citizens, should reflect the values that we uphold. You don't want to go down the road of illegal and criminal behaviour of killing people on the streets because they are "illegal aliens," like what happened a few days ago in Pennsylvania. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/12/2008 3:17:20 PM | | Perhaps someone living in Massachusetts may have to "learn a lot more about" this issue. But, having been born and raised in L.A. and living here my entire life, I already know the impacts illegal immigration has. Not only have I read volumes of figures, studies, and articles on the topic, I need only walk outside and engage in my normal daily activities to see its ruthless impact. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/12/2008 3:59:08 PM | Tranquil
I suppose I could completely disregard that any impact, whatsoever, is occuring, however naive that may be.
Whether numbers are less than what the complete accuracy of the State of California would publish is insignificant, really. The fact that the mysantaclarita.com website posted such publications (A name highly reminiscent of spanish influence) seems evidence enough for me that appropriations are in order. But I think you would disusade the argument entirely with a presumption that the information is less than precise. In terms of people killing others, there are certainly factual accounts substanciating such heinous acts. People are beginning to resent the fact that their government has no, or rather, applies no- control to this unprecendented situation. I, for one, would never condone such, but it seems just bringing up this PC topic leaves one vulnerable to such outlandish accusations, as has been evidenced throughout this thread.
It's rather shallow (and again, dissuading) to present the argument that the information presented is innaccurate and biased, unless , of course, there is irrefutable evidence to the contrary. Those hospitals you speak of (see post/msg# 40) are closing due to overburdening of the fascilities, due to illegal aliens. There's no disregarding the article I presented, and much more is to come, not only with regard to medical treatment, but with schools, fire/rescue/police svcs., and so on. Entire cities are on the verge of bankruptcy due to the overwhelming burden placed on them. So, let's keep it inbounds. I dont' want a full blown fight either, nor do I condone any acts of a heinous nature. I just want my elected officials to bring some sanity to this crisis that has reached epidemic proportions. I dont' know if deportation of anyone illegal is the answer or if providing a legal residence proposal is best. But, in light of our country already having legal work provisions to work through, I'm hard pressed to think any such legal maneuvering would be taken seriously. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/12/2008 5:32:29 PM | "Perhaps someone living in Massachusetts may have to "learn a lot more about" this issue. But, having been born and raised in L.A. and living here my entire life, I already know the impacts illegal immigration has. Not only have I read volumes of figures, studies, and articles on the topic, I need only walk outside and engage in my normal daily activities to see its ruthless impact."
Strongdad:
I suspect that there is possibility of having a real discussion with you, since you already know it all. I am glad that you have already read enough on the topic. I know quite a bit, but I always keep my mind open to new information and different points of view. For your information, even in Massachusetts there are significant numbers of "illegal aliens," some of which have come here initially lured by the government. They run a "legal" coyote system bringing "exchange students" during the summer to areas where there are no universities. The young foreigners only come to work for low wages and try to recoup their investment by working very hard, long hours, and after their visas expire they overstay. The Chamber of Commerce loves it and we have to live with the consequences. Who would think that the federal government is contributing to the illegal immigration problem?
It looks that you have already made up your mind and therefore I will not waste my time addresing you on this topic. Suffice it to say that I was an immigrant, so I know. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/12/2008 5:44:22 PM | I happen to know a huge number of immigrants....legal and illegal. Those who came here legal are equally offended by illegal immigration. I am always interested in the topic, because it has touched my life in very real ways, as I am sure it has others, even you.
Having been the victim of a violent crime at the hands of one who fled back to Mexico, I was open minded enough to change my view on their presence here. You see, I was, at one time, like other leftists, who "felt such compassion" for them, as they "only came here to work", afterall. Having your throat slit, literally, and your carotid artery sliced open, however, has a way of making one re-think his position on lots of things. Especially, when the offender is able to merrily skip back across the border.
The issue of CRIMES committed by illegals alone, is enough to convince me that our government is falling down on its number one responsibility....keeping the CITIZENS of our country safe from harm and ensuring our freedom.
My friend, these are the sentiments and experiences of a person who has lived and loved latino people his entire life. I have always been closest to them. And, I am the father of two of them, as well as a step father to another. If coming to some conclusions and taking a stand on an issue makes me closed minded, then so be it.
SD | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/12/2008 6:04:16 PM | Mane,
like I said, I would like to have a civil conversation with you regarding this issue. I sense that you are a person who has his heart in the right place and has an open mind.
I agree with you that the illegal immigration is a real problem in this country. Some areas are more affected than others, but slowly the whole country is coming to the realization that we have to do something about it. The difficult issue is that we may have a hard time reaching a consensus. Business and the Chamber of Commerce seems to be on the opposite side of those wanting to get rid of the "illegals." Everybody wants the government to take care of the problem, but when government responds primarily to the interests on business, then you will end up with a situation like the one we have now.
The point I disagree with you here is that the sources of information may not very reliable. Even the link about the hospitals that you provided seems to be very biased. We need reliable figures, statistics, and serious analisys of the data. Sensationalistic publications do not contribute to a better understanding of the real problem. Like I mentioned before, like in the case of the fraud by hospitals, I suspect that there may be a significant amount of fraud in the numbers used to talk about the "illegal alien" drag in our economy. That doesn't mean that I want to diminish the impact that some areas are experiencing. I can't stop thinking that there may be people who are profiting from the current situation. To blame the whole issue on the Liberals seems to be a political ploy intended to obscure the reality and complexity of the issues pertaining to illegal immigration. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/12/2008 10:23:34 PM |
The difficult issue is that we may have a hard time reaching a consensus. Business and the Chamber of Commerce seems to be on the opposite side of those wanting to get rid of the "illegals." Everybody wants the government to take care of the problem, but when government responds primarily to the interests on business, then you will end up with a situation like the one we have now.
From that perspective, I'd say we vote out any politician or member of Chambers who enjoy such POV's. I hope that doesn't get you riled, as I understand you're an immigrant, but I have a life too, and where I live, and many points across this area, it's becoming a tremendous burden. I understand one law (city ordinance regarding hiring, residence rental, etc) here in Ga has forced a number of illegals to move to TN and the Carolinas, but that a drop in a lake. Most cities census here show latinos overtaking the black populations, en masse I might add. And it just continues.
The point I disagree with you here is that the sources of information may not very reliable. Even the link about the hospitals that you provided seems to be very biased. We need reliable figures, statistics, and serious analisys of the data. Sensationalistic publications do not contribute to a better understanding of the real problem.
I would speculate that to some degree, there's quite an atributal amount of evidence supporting the hospitals closings, FI, and the cost that has been estimated, overall. But in keeping with your train of thought, I agree, we need verifiable statistics that illustrate, clearly, and unequivocably, where that statistic lies. We know there's a burden placed on our infrastructure, but precisely how much is the question. Trouble is, the government seems disinterested in knowing, and it's tough tracking all those figures with people who have records here. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/12/2008 11:12:31 PM | | Isn't illegal immigration an obvious problem, since it's so endemic AND it's (ahem) illegal? I think it's possible to recognize that without getting into sensationalist "boogie man" rhetoric about illegals themselves: they're ALL criminals, they VOTE, they are going to make us all speak Spanish, they are eating up our tax money, etc. For me the problem is real, but it has to be solved not by villainizing the IMMIGRANTS--most of whom want to work and make a better life for themselves, obviously--but by attacking the enablement of it. Why shoudn't employers who use illegal immigrants be penalized as a PRIORITY. Why shouldn't they be REQUIRED to ensure the legal status of their workers? Why does the most explicitly anti-internationalist president in our history wink at this issue? The problem is that illegal immigration benefits a lot of people in this country by providing a cheap source of labor AND, more broadly, even for those who don't employ them, keeping wages down. It's THOSE people, with an investment in the exploitation of illegal immigration, who should be targeted. And if they are shut down, illegals will lose at least PART of their incentive to come here (often at great cost and danger to themselves). | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/12/2008 11:24:45 PM | I agree. Here is my suggestion as to what should be done...
1) Sanction the Mexican govt for aiding their people in breaking our laws by coming here illegally.
2) Federal sanctions of sanctuary cities, like L.A. and S.F. for allowing them to come here without fear of deportation.
3) Prosecute employers.
4) Prosecute illegals with stiffer prison times for stealing their way into the country.
5) Prosecute illegals who commit voter fraud.
6) Build and man the border.
7) Stiffer sentances for any illegal immigrant who assaults or kills one of our border agents.
8) Sanction states, like my own, which refuse to participate in e-verification systems for employment. Other states are participating, but Calif refuses.
9) Jail time for Mayors who refuse to move away from sanctuary city status. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 5:49:52 AM | Sure we all agree that illegal immigration is a problem and it's bound to only get worse. We all know the the real culprits are both small and big business alike and the government who's main goal should be to protect it's countries border's.
Me personally, I beleive the government loves to see immigration into this country whether it be legal or illegal. You can be illegal in this country and be given what is known as a tax i.d. Which ensures that the government will receive taxes. That's kind of a back handed slap while looking the other way. In Miami and other parts of Florida you can buy a home and live the American dream as long as you have a tax i.d. The government only considers one illegal if you are not paying taxes. It's not about the red white and blue it's all about the 'Green"!
This is just one example of how the government and it's incompetant beauracracy betrays the system one dollar at a time. Don't get me wrong...I am in favor of immigration into this country but not in the way we are seeing it today. And although it seems the latin community to seems to be the target, there are many people from all over the world who are coming here illegally contributing to this problem. Immigration is far exceeding assimilation and I doubt the next administration to come will be likely to be effective on this issue. If anything it will worsen.
The Democrats don't want to say nothing because it fears losing votes and the Republicans get large kick backs from business who are addicted to cheap labor provided by newly arrived immigrants...black,white,hispanic and asian.
The correct attitude is not to postulate as to what we should do to tackle this problem as though we are a political entity, but how the American people should influence the government to act in response. That's the hard part. | |
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