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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 9:00:57 AM | I agree with a lot of what A Bit Nomadic posted on this thread. Her kind of thinking is what leads me to say that we all need to become better informed as to the complexities of the issue.
Manerider has done a good thing by starting this discussion. Let's try keeping it open, without giving cause to the moderators to close it because someone doesn't want to accept that it isn't just and issue of good vs. evil, black and white, us against them, etc.
Just to show you how difficult and complicated a problem the issue of illegal immigration is, I invite you to read the article whose link I pasted below.
I am hoping that you all will have something to say about what the article is reporting.
www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/08/10/no_defense_for_this | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 102 | |
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 10:21:37 AM | ^^ Good article. This is capitalist exploitation , observed in its natural habitat...so to speak. This is America's prize bull, which is now goring its owner on a daily basis , ironically.. Big capitalism such as this, as others in this and other threads have stated, requires bottom feeders.
Today's biggest pool of bottom feeders happens to be undocumented or improperly documented illegal-entry workers (mostly central Americans). This saves the corp's big-time on the bottom line, keeps wages low, and hinders effective unionization.
Due to the fact that many (or probably most) of these corps either contribute substantially to and / or are actually tied in with the gov't (like in this case discussed in the above article), nothing can ever truly be done about this issue ~ or at least nothing to the extent that it seems to me the hardliners would like to see done.
Furthermore, one of the things it would require would be bigger gov't and more gov't restriction and oversight on corporate business.... something which is of course anathema to any devout free marketeer, Repub or Dem.
McCain, if elected, would do as little about this issue ultimately as Obama. Perhaps even less. The only difference is he may talk tougher about it during debate season now, to try to consolidate a base amongst conservatives.
The only way they are not going to be "illegals" anymore is if or when they are given some kind of quick path to citizenship, or...when they pass on, and the next generation (their children, born here, who ARE fully American) takes over and naturally is assimilated into the country. But then of course, future tides of undocumented workers will likely still be entering the same way.
This is not something that's going to go away, IMO. I firmly believe America had better prepare itself for (yet another) big social change; by 2025 or '30 or so, we are likely to have far more people of central American and other non-white Hispanic descent in this country than we have now.
The Hispanic growth likely will be concentrated heavily in the south and southwest, but will of course also be very noticeable in big cities and their suburbs throughout the country as well. It's something Americans must adjust to.
The 2007 Census Bureau released data last week on racial / ethnic / linguistic groupings in America, per the Chgo Sun-Times: the largest and fastest increasing group since 2000 has been Hispanics, primarily Mexicans, accounting for a 24% increase nationally (approx 340,000 people) only over the past 7 yrs. By far the fastest increasing amount of any group. Again, not something that's going to go away, nor something for which there truly is any real (and realistic) "fix". | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 11:18:25 AM | The people that are in Washington, tell us they cannot deport 12 million illegal’s?
We probably need to vote all of them out of office and send them back to school to learn history! We pay more to illegal’s in welfare than it would cost to deport them!
Our career politicians need to work for the voters and the good of the United States of America, not the lobbyist and big business.
HOOVER, TRUMAN AND EISENHOWER
Here is something that should be of great interest for you to pass around.
I didn't know of this until it was pointed out to me. But, back during The
Great Depression, President Herbert Hoover ordered the deportation of ALL
illegal aliens in order to make jobs available to American citizens that
desperately needed work.
Harry Truman deported over two million Illegal's after WWII to create jobs
for returning veterans.
And then again in 1954, President Dwight Eisenhower deported 13 million
Mexican nationals! The program was called 'Operation Wetback' so that American WWII and Korean veterans had a better chance at jobs.
It took 2 Years, but they deported them!
Now, if they could deport the illegals back then, they can sure do it today!!
If you have doubts about the veracity of this information, enter
Operation Wetback into your favorite search engine and confirm it for yourself.
Reminder. Don't forget to pay your taxes... 12 million Illegal Aliens are depending on you.
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 104 | |
| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 12:09:27 PM | | ^^ This did occur, back then. But it's a different world today, a different country today. Nothing like that "operation" is going to happen in this day and age, in this country. Not only that, the name in and of itself is offensive to people, to say nothing of the idea of rounding up and forcibly deporting over 12 million people , in some cases separating men and women from their families, etc ~ and MOST of them are living peacefully and have not broken any laws (besides entry law). Never going to happen. You're having an idle daydream about a long lost time. Might as well be daydreaming about the bad old days of enforced racial segregation and such in this country. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 12:53:26 PM | "Now, if they could deport the illegals back then, they can sure do it today!!"
Just 2 b me,
As they say, the devil is in the detail.
Just explain to me how can the forceful deportation of 12 million people can be accomplished by legal means. I am hoping that you aren't thinking of violating the laws and the civil rights of many legitimate citizens and legal residents of this country in order to achieve this goal of yours.
The country would need to be solidly unified in the belief that the deportation of people would be the best course of action in order to have a minimal chance of success. At best, it would be very doubtful, but for sure it would be a total failure if the people of our country are divided, specially if it would be a policy that would require the sanctioning of illegal actions in order to be carried out. I believe that there are millions of Americans that will not stand up for a policy of wholesale violation of our laws. Only the criminal elements that are scapegoating the most vulnerable people in this country would be happy to pursue such avenue of action.
Let me know what would be your strategy. Perhaps you can convince me! | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 12:59:56 PM | At best, it would be very doubtful, but for sure it would be a total failure is the people of our country are divided, specially if it would be a policy that would require the sanctioning of illegal actions in order to be carried out..."
Say what? Are you saying the people of our country are divided on illegal immigration? I can't really understand the post.
How do we deport illegals?? We do it all the time. We know how. We just don't do enough of it. For starters, police depts need to be permitted by their cities (some are now doing this), to determine legal status of suspects or arrestees. Then, they can hand them off to ICE.
Want to slow down illegal immigration?? If an illegal has come back for the third time, after being deported twice, put him in prison for 20 years.....FEDERAL Prison....where they do about 80% of their sentences.
SD | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 1:02:28 PM | ^^^^^NERO
It may take a scenario much like the depression of the 20's to bring about massive deportation, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility. When push comes to shove, those without legal residence, work visas or legal status may have to face going back to their country of origin, be it latin america or elsewhere.
When enough , let's say 'legal residents', have to do without, and when enough legal residents can't find jobs while illegal aliens HAVE jobs, then that push will come to shove. Statistically, we're heading in that direction, and a poke at Iran might be just the ingitor that sets off this Country going deeper in that direction. While I have empathy for those wishing to migrate here to work, just to provide for their families, i still can't help but see what impact this has on our own legal residents.
Ignoring illegal populations while legal residents can't provide for their families is putting the cart wayyyyy before the horse. You may be right, there may be no deportations, but recently, laws were recently enacted here in Ga that sent many off to other states. It's a drop in a bucket but it's a start at correcting the problem. We've got to protect our own before we protect those of other nationalities.
I wouldn't take a foreign child into my home and feed them AHEAD of feeding my own children, and that's a very simplistic but realistic outlook on this situation.
edit:
I believe that there are millions of Americans that will not stand up for a policy of wholesale violation of our laws. Only the criminal elements that are scapegoating the most vulnerable people in this country would be happy to pursue such avenue of action.
If you're saying there are a few million who would not support deportation, I would give you that, but I imagine a hundred million would. There is a wholesale violation of our laws, and those violations add up to billions of dollars out of taxpayers pockets, and out of the pockets of legal residents who are now seeking work, only to find out that the illegal aliens have taken those jobs. There's no longer a safety net for people to fall into when they lose a job. The bottom of the lake is covered with bottom feeders, so they've got control of the jobs many people might be looking to find right now.
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 1:40:56 PM | "Say what? Are you saying the people of our country are divided on illegal immigration? I can't really understand the post."
Strongdad,
I will give a try to discuss the issue in a civil manner with you, but you have to do us a favor, please read the information that I use when forming my opinions, otherwise there is no way that we can start understanding each other. Back in message # 101 I pasted a link to a very serious report on an aspect of the complexities of illegal immigration. To me, what is reported in that article is a clear indication that even different agencies of the federal government are divided on the issue of illegal immigration, let alone the differences that exist between the interests of the Chamber of Commerce and those of the regular citizens who may be hurt by the illegal hiring of undocumented aliens.
So, yes! I think that the country is not all on the same page regarding illegal immigration. Now, when it comes to the enforcement of the existing laws, you may not find much disagreement. I am waiting to see if the government will seriously penalize the employers that are violating the law by hiring undocumented aliens. If they don't, then I will just shake my head in disgust, but I will not vote for any politician promising that they will solve this problem.
The real disagreement will appear when you start trying to deport people on a wholesale scale. I am afraid that I will be detained and my civil rights will be violated just because I look and sound like the people that are being scapegoated now. What if I resist being detained by saying that what is being done to me is illegal, and I claim that I am a legal resident, and I scream that my rights are being violated because I am a citizen? And what if one of the enforcers feel that he/she doesn't want to waste his/her time and just shoots me for the sake of expediency?
Wow! what kind of scenario is this, you would say?
Now, what if the situation gets out of control, and you organize your own patrol of enforcers and start roaming the factories, the fields, and anywhere that you would like to go looking for someone to mistreat? By the way, have you read or heard about the killing of a Mexican in the streets of a town in Pennsylvania, just a few weeks ago? He was killed just because he was a Mexican. Can you see that people who would envision those kinds of scenarios would not be very supportive of the "patriotic legions"?
So, please read the article, here is the link again:
www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/08/10/no_defense_for_this | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 1:45:31 PM | Tranquilo …..
My strategy ? Oh I don’t know how about this …. If you’re in this country illegally your breaking our laws and are eligible for a free ticket home.
They are here ILLEGALLY so we can LEGALLY deport them without violating any laws or infringing on the rights of any LEGAL U.S. citizens.
Why is that so hard for some people to comprehend ? What part of the word ILLEGAL do people not understand ?
As for how we do it, hmmm, seems we have three examples from our recent history on how it could be done. (and was)
But the reason I posted was that I’m pretty sure most people had no idea that this was done and could conceivably be done again, that & I’m sick and tired of politicians standing there saying we simply cannot find and deport 12 million people when we obviously can and have done just that in the past.
We need to cut Federal funding to every so called sanctuary city in the country,
Train our city & State police to work with ICE
Pass legislation in every state similar to Oklahoma, Georgia, and others that have cut off aid to those here illegally.
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 1:54:19 PM | Mane,
what I am saying is that the manner in which a policy of deportation would be carried out is a very important factor when we make up our mind on the issue. A policy of wholesale deportation may very likely degenerate into a situation similar to what happened in Germany. That is the reason why I speak of criminal elements scapegoating the most vulnerable people in this country.
I have reason to fear this kind of scenario even though I am a legal citizen of this country. You see, I look like, and sound pretty much the same as the people that the country would be trying to get rid of.
I suggest reading the article whose link I pasted in message # 101. Here is the link again:
www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/08/10/no_defense_for_this | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 1:58:07 PM | The real disagreement will appear when you start trying to deport people on a wholesale scale. I am afraid that I will be detained and my civil rights will be violated just because I look and sound like the people that are being scapegoated now. What if I resist being detained by saying that what is being done to me is illegal, and I claim that I am a legal resident, and I scream that my rights are being violated because I am a citizen? And what if one of the enforcers feel that he/she doesn't want to waste his/her time and just shoots me for the sake of expediency?
Wow! what kind of scenario is this, you would say?
Now, what if the situation gets out of control, and you organize your own patrol of enforcers and start roaming the factories, the fields, and anywhere that you would like to go looking for someone to mistreat? By the way, have you read or heard about the killing of a Mexican in the streets of a town in Pennsylvania, just a few weeks ago? He was killed just because he was a Mexican. Can you see that people who would envision those kinds of scenarios would not be very supportive of the "patriotic legions"?
____________________________________________________________
A couple of thoughts....
I don't have to wait to see what our govt will do. I already know they are not doing enough. The city of Los Angeles has named itself a sanctuary city. This means they have telegraphed to illegals they are free to break our law and come here with impugnity. When citizens get tire of it and start demanding that our govt give us the protection we are entitled to as citizens, we are called racists and xenophobes. Even a presidential candidate has made that implication.
So, a mexican was killed "just because he was a Mexican." I would have to read police reports, etc. to see that for myself. Personally, I think it is evil that he was killed, no matter what the motivations. Who cares what the motivations were? Dead is dead. There happen to be thousands of people killed in L.A. by illegals. Most of their victims, by the way, are other latinos and blacks. But, who cares about them, right?
With regards to anyone here legally, if detained, show your documentation. If harrassed, get a lawyer. There are remedies available for you. And, I would encourage you or anyone else here legally to avail yourself to them. The thing I take issue with is illegal aliens.....I have no problem with legal immigrants.
I could go on and on with the ways the issue has made it harder for citizens in our own country. But, it would probably not make a difference to those who support my country being overtaken by foreigners. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 2:19:50 PM | Tranquil
I read the article and I agree, it is deplorable, not only the working conditions, but that it's just one of millions of examples along the same vein. The people you wish compassion to be shown to are "probably" or" in large part" or are "most likely" ILLEGAL. The fact that our right-wing supported military has a hand in this only goes to further the rubber stamp they put on this particular situation, that if our government allows this to continue, there is little hope this admin, or a MCcain admin, is ever going to address the issue.
I realize these people have families, their country of origin doesn't care for their people as we do here, they don't have free emergency hopitalization, they don't have decent paying jobs, so they come here and work in factories just like that article describes. But pull off the tunnel vision goggles a minute and see that it's happening in (practically) every town, in every state, across the nation. This is what's lowering our standards of living, and if allowed to continue, our country will be right among those in mexico, or at least too near for my own comfort. I've seen mexico, and outside of the tourist areas, it is very sad to see, just mile after endless mile of people living in deplorable conditions, with no running water, no cultivation, barely a cardboard roof over a few stilts in some cases, and yet, their problems should not be forcibly absorbed into our infrastructure. It's crushing our society, one little piece at a time.
This may come as a shock, but I actually work for a living. I'm often in an unoccupied home that is without air condition, often on the second floor, or I'm outside in the sun all day long, working from 7:30 am til 7 pm sometimes. I sweat bullets, sometimes, and it's a part of my routine quite often. So, while this article may seem unsettling, there's a lot of people who actually sweat in order to earn. Therefore, I'm less empathetic to their working conditions than most. And we dont' really read how long they try and take for bathroom breaks, not that that's not already immaterial. It is. Work is work, and I stay nose to the grindstone in order to make ends meet.
Since I've been courteous enough to read that article, do me a favor and watch this video. If you've already seen it, then you should already know the other side of the coin.
by Der Stab
This is definately worth watching and commenting on. I think the guy is right on, what do you think? There are so many spins put on the changing face of America, here is one I dont think I have heard articulated so well. Can it shape an election? We shall see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCuItEYKrIs
As Der Stab questions, so do I. What impact will all of this have on our upcoming election?
I guess we shall see. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 3:13:12 PM | I wasn't going to post in these threads any more but I would like to ask those people in favour of mass deportation a few questions if I may.
1. What do you think will happen to these people and their families when you deport them?. Sending them back to live in abject poverty without jobs or other means of income or access to social safety networks?. Care to speculate on the number of deaths it would case both directly and indirectly?.
2. Doing this would cetainly create a domino effect, not only in Mexico but many other nations around the world who would see that getting rid of their own problem minorities on the basis of cost is now acceptable. Each nation returning their problem people back to the, usually even poorer, places they came from. World wide mass deportations leading to the biggest humanitarian crisis the world has ever known resulting in deaths on an unprecidented scale. Is this what you want to acheive?.
3. What if they won't go?. Do they have the same access to guns that you do?. Sending them back to an almost certain death might just inspire them to resist. How are you planning to deal with this issue?.
4. With what are you intending to replace them in your job market?. Your unemployment rate is currently 4.7% . Thats nowhere near enough able bodied workers to cover the jobs they do since many of them work more than the standard 40 hour week you enjoy and expect. You will need some 12 million replacement workers overnight?. You aint got them. Are you planning to increase you legal immigration to cover the shortfall?.
5. Given that you (wrongly) anticipate the jobs to be taken up by Americans with better wages and other benefits. What do you think the financial effect will be on your businesses?. My guess is you will cause the total collapse of your agricultural and manufacturing economies within a matter of days leading to food shortages, inner city riots and martial law imposed?.
6. How do you expect to deal with the Mexican army that will be waiting at the border to stop your mass deportation since by doing what you intend you will totally collapse the Mexican economy which cannot survive the sudden influx of 12 million homeless and starving people turning up on it's doorstep.
7. What happens to the American citizens born to these illegal immigrants. Do they stop being Americans suddenly?. Are you intending to abandon the constitution which you claim to hold in such high regard so that this mass murder can be expidited.
8. How do you think the rest of the world would see this action?. Or do you just not care?
9. Will you be proud of your country when it is No 1 again. No 1 on the list of terrorist nations?.
Answers on a postcard please care of the United Nations NYC. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 3:28:47 PM | Mane,
I tried to watch the video, unfortunately my computer is old, so I couldn't get the sound. Let's say that I follow the news presented by Lou Dobbs, and I am somewhat informed of his perspective on the issue. I don't agree with the emphasis on the sensationalistic aspects, trying to depict all illegal aliens as criminals, violent people, drug traffickers, etc. because that is leading into the scapegoating of people that don't deserve to be further victimized.
Now, we need to enforce the laws of our country, and if someone, whatever his/her residence status is, commits a crime, he/she should be held accountable for it. That includes people who employ "illegal aliens" because that is profitable for them. There are plenty of laws that can help to reduce the incentive for illegal immigration. Start enforcing them, legally, without giving "carte blanche" to those who would like to have a field day preying upon people who can hardly defend themselves.
I am not a Mexican but I have seen the migrants working on the fields picking the crops. You would be surprised to hear that some of them are legitimate citizens of this country, but they look just the same as those who have entered the country illegally. They share a common heritage and culture, even though they are citizens of different countries, and as far as I have seen them, they seem to share the same destiny, working from sunrise until sundown.
Let's hope that the country will have the courage to confront this situation upholding the values that we say are important to us. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 4:09:10 PM | tranquil
the gist of the video is by a LA man vieing for mayor's office. his premise is that a silent, (so far) non-violent war on america.....not from muslims, no Iranian missiles, but from mexico. The LA mayor and the SF mayor have basically heralded their cities as sanctuaries for illegals to flourish. And they ignore the negative impacts thsi is having on their communities. The war is silently destabilizing our economy, people are being pushed out of jobs because the mexicans are willing to work for half, basically. Mind you, sanctions and penalities and jail should await the employers, much the same as should be done to the employers in the article you presented, but that's another thread.
I dot' think Lou Dobbs "oversensationalizies the issue or presents an arguement that all mexicans or all illegal or legal residents as being criminals, violent, or drug traffickers, although statistics bare out many similar findings. Recently, huge acreages of pot fields were burned and evidence showed latino people were the creators of those fields. I really have little issue with pot, but that's yet another thread. I'm sure there's more drugs than pot being smuggled in or cultivated. But, back to Lou, he's exposed a number of issues that are important, that much of Calfornia is being overrun and overburdened by the influx of illegals.
Let's reboot a second. If people A) wish to enter LEGALLY, through work visas, and STAY and live among ou people, that is fine, and I'm sure SD supports those comments. However, those whoB) enter ILLEGALLY, who sneak past the watchful eye of state and local officials, who live here illegally, make their wages for a few years, send their money home, and return a few yrs later, taking their earnings instead of redepositing them into our infrastructure, are the crux of the problem.
And I wholeheartedly agree with you with......"Let's hope that the country will have the courage to confront this situation upholding the values that we say are important to us."
I dont' really know what would happen in the event of a mass exodus of illegals back to their countries of origin. Quite frankly, I'm probably not the most symathetic person on this thread, mainly because their presence is affecting my life, my livelihood, and my abilities to feed my own family and myself, not to mention paying bills. When my life is becoming usurped due to the ILLEGAL actions of millions of others, it's time for me to take a stand, and the shame tactics presented by some really doesn't affect me as it perhaps once did. I'm proud to take a stand. Maybe I'm just as guilty for allowing this to happen because I've only recently been taking issue. When times have been good, it didnt' matter to me that they were here (thus negating the xenophobic responses). In the event of a mass exodus, and they refuse or take up arms, then we begin to see the real problems at issue. Then , we have a war within our borders from people who, by all intended purposes, are already not abiding by the law. If someone entered my house illegally, and I told them to leave, and they refused, and I intended to force them out, and they took up arms against me, I'd take whatever measures necessary to evict them. And it would not surpirse me in the least if the mexican army decided to enforce their stay here, especially considering they all but bus them across, distributing pamphlets illustrating routes/crossings. (The mexican president spoke in las vegas recently, quite arrogantly demanding the american gov't provide them amnesty, and that wherever a mexican is, so is the national republic of mexico). But I suppose that's a bridge we'll just have to cross when we get there. And personally, I really dont' care, at this point, how others around the world would view this tragic set of circumstances. It isn't as if they're here, they can't know what it's like, but my suspicions are that many countries around the world have already surmized the problems associated with this epidemic, and probably wonder how such a (once) powerful nation allowed this to continue for so long. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 4:56:24 PM | Mane,
I think that we may agree on a lot of the issues related to the problem, causes and effects, of illegal immigration.
At this point, one of my main concerns is the lack of guidance from people who are in a position to enlighten the people as to what is the correct thing to do. Like I said, emphasizing the sensationalistic aspects may lead to the development of unhealthy resentment against people who are not reaping large profits by working hard for slave wages. If people keep on harping against the workers without concern about the people who are exploiting them, you may end up putting in motion the mob mentality. There are signs already of this type of thing happening.
I mentioned before that a Mexican was killed in Pennsylvania mainly because he was a Mexican. Here is the link in case that you haven't heard of this case.
http://www.examiner.com/a-1505662~3_Pa__teens_charged_in_fatal_beating_of_immigrant.html
Just one point that I would like to ask you about. If you work for someone and you earn the money that they pay you, shouldn't you be entitled to do with it whatever you like? It seems to me that telling someone that they have to spend the money that we pay them to buy stuff in our store resembles a whole lot the situation we had during the slavery period. I think that we are past the times when workers needed to buy everything at The Company Store. We don't demand that people who earn salaries in the millions $ range have to spend all of their money here, do we? | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 5:32:22 PM | tranquil, first of all, I'd expect just as much contention from people who scavage off those who work for cheap labor, ie: those employers, as much or more than I would the actual illegal employees.
Secondly, no, no one should relegate where others spend or send their money. But if someone is working here under legal status, keeping a home or residence, and are more or less committed to working and living here, they are most likely not sending their money home. The ones who are sending money home are typically illegals who have plans for staying a few years, until they can send home enough to live comfortably off of. IOW's, living ten to a household, sending money back to mexico (their countries second largest revenue base) and living illegally here are not contributing to our infrastructure, they're scabbing off the top, utilizing what resources are here, with no real plans on staying. THOSE are the ones that are the crux of this debate. I have a good friend from panama, a home owner and work associate, who just got his wife relocated here after several long years, but he's a registered citizen. NO ONE... can say shit to him, and rightly so. He's put his eggs in 'our ' basket, so to speak. Therein lies the big difference. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 6:45:36 PM | People may ignore this link, if they like, but it is on the money.
http://mayorsam.blogspot.com/2008/04/support-passage-of-jamiels-law.html
Powerful, chilling, and a punch of reality.
That describes the appearance of the Parents of Jamiel Shaw. A youth of character killed by a illegal alien gang member, on KABC's Doug McIntyer Show this morning.
They were join in studio by Mayoral Candidate Walter Moore, the author of the proposed Jamiel's Law. This law would roll back Special Order 40 protections for illegal alien gang members who commit crimes.
This is common sense reform of Special Order 40 that ironically was implemented to protect illegal aliens who were victims of crime.
Now that the proposed law is on the table for discussion, what will be the responce from the likes of Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, Police Chief Bill Bratton, The Police Commission, City Council and Civil Libertarians???
Will the likes of the L.A. Times, Daily News and the various weeklies give column inches to reporting the facts on race related gang killings?
One thing for sure this should and will resonate through the African-American communities and if Mayor Villaraigosa reacts by not reacting, then what is left of our African American communities will have the final reaction on Election Day in 2009. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 10:52:12 PM | Dear mainrider and Strongdad,
Good news chaps. Last night as a walked the streets of my home town here on the South West coast of Somerset (that's in England, just of the coast of France. Stand on the coast with your back to the Appalachian Mountains and look out about a 1/4 turn to your left. Yeh, thats us there),
I happened to ambling aimlessly onto the beach and there to my surprise came upon an old dented Arabian lamp washed up on the beach. Well you can imagine my surprise when as I rubbed it to remove the sand out popped this Genie and gave the whole three wishes thing. Well would you Adam and Eve it eh!. And in this day and age too, well wadda ya know. I got two wishes straight off and a third I could have 24 hours later.
Being the magnanimous chap that I am I immediately thought of you two and the torment that illegal immigration causes you both. Ignoring all the very real problems we all face right now with increasing energy prices, food price rises and shortages, war, famine, plastic pollution, oil dependency etc. etc, I decided not to address any of these very real world problems but to concentrate on the one that causes you both such anguish.
You will forgive my presumptuousness I hope, but my first wish was that you be made POTUS and VP. You can argue between yourselves which one is which it doesn't matter much. Congrats to you both. When you wake up in about four hours from now thats the position you will find yourselves in. I say four hours but I'm not so sure you'll get a lie in today. Gonna be a busy day for you both because my second wish, again a little presumptuous of me, but I opted to have very single illegal imigrant currently in the USA disapear as if by magic. Don't worry yourselves where they have gone to. Just think of it as a 24 hour holiday for them away from the backbreaking labour they do every day. And don't forget I have that third wish still to come yet so I can get them back just as easy if you ask me to. After all, you are the number one and two most important men on earth now. You have 24 hours. Lets see how you do shall we.
I'm sure had you known such a thing was going to happen you would have slept with one hand inside your pyjama bottoms. Sorry to have robbed you of that pleasure but for now sleep soundly, your gonna need your rest for the day ahead.
About 6.05am the phone on the nightstand at Herb Winklemier's bedside rings rudely awakening him. Herb is the Chairman and CEO of the largest food processing plant chain in the USA One of many such CEO getting an early morning call today.
Huh! WTF, he says, who's this?, don't you know what time it is? he says. Sorry to wake you mr. Winklemier the nervous voice on the other end of the phone says, but their gone. Who's gone? he answers. All the workers sir, the've all gone. All of them. There are no workers here today apart from a few legal American citizens.
Are you on F*in drugs man, what do you mean the've all gone?. Thev'e all gone sir, all of them. We haveno-one to process any of our production today. What can we do?.
I apreciate that at this time your probably still in dreamland and by my reackoning you have about 15 minutes sleep time left before the sticky brown stuff hits the fan and your first day in charge begins in earnest.
Fancy going through the next 24 hours with me one hour at a time and we can look at the problems you face as President and Vice President. Right here on POF. One hour at a time? or are you ready to ask me to get my genie friend to magic them all back for you yet?. How about it?. Want to play or are you just content to continue throwing ridiculous solutions to the problems in the air without thought or consideration of the consequences of your actions?
Bet you daren't do it.
Stephen | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 10:59:10 PM | Beautiful Stephen.
One thing though. I odnt' know about SD, but I'm perfectly capable of growing my own veggies. And we'd be more than happy to pay higher pricing for meats or veggies, so long as Americans can go back to work.
Thank you very much.
Lovely dictation, though. Who wrote that little disertation for you?
Your momma? | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/13/2008 11:05:22 PM | Good morning Mr. President, or is it Mr. Vice president?.
Growing your own veg. Good idea. Be able to grow enough for 300 million of your fellow americans can you. Going to play havok with the White House lawns. Unfortunately you will need to find a species that grows to full maturity overnight. people get hungry mighty quick.
Thats a good idea about putting the Americans back to work. How quick do you think you will be able to get them to the processing plants so your shops and supermarkets have something on the shelves to sell?.
Love and kisses
Stephen | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/14/2008 12:50:54 AM | How about if we send them all over to you guys in England? How's your economy these days? Last I heard, unemployment rates weren't real good over there. How would like 12 million people who don't speak your language taking away what jobs you have and not contributing to your already overinflated tax rates?
I doubt it, regardless of what you say. But until it's a problem you have to deal with, why not let those affected by it worry about it. I am with those who want them deported unless they can be bothered to go the legal route to become legal workers or legal citizens. The reason they can work for next to nothing is they live 10-15 to a house (which is against the law for "legal citizens"--the children's services and other agencies would be all over it). They get credit cards in phony names which they max out and then change alias' which causes endless economic problems. They don't pay taxes, and all the money they earn goes directly out of the country and does nothing to help our economy. They go into the stores and buy the cheapest items, and then pull out wallets full of hundred dollar bills that will never be taxed or contribute in any way to the country providing it to them.
And how quick do I think we could get American's to fill the positions that illegals take away? How about tomorrow? I manage a store and everytime we put out a help wanted sign we get a ton of people that would be happy to start yesterday.
The bad side of the rosy picture that gets painted of our country is that it's an old and outdated one. The wealth is held by a relative few and those relative few will cut 500 workers to avoid losing any part of their multi-million dollar salaries. Oh, yeah, and sometimes they move their corporations out of the country to find cheap labor. To places like Mexico. What's gonna happen when all the Mexicans are here already?The corporations will stay, the illegals will stay, and Americans will have no jobs. | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/14/2008 1:18:22 AM | ready4somethingfun,
Congrats mate, you just landed the job as Homeland Security Secretary. President Strongdad (yes he got the Presidency. Although mainrider was first up today he's already showing to be somewhat lacking in ideas). President Strongdad needs some committed, patriotic and visionary people on his team. In the absence of anyone else in here volunteering, guess you got the job.
6.25am on day one. President Strongdad is in the shower. Wondering what just happened. There he was showing his Hispanic housekeeper some American love bent over the writing desk in the oval office when suddenly she just disappeared, puff, gone. Think I must have still been asleep he tells himself, having a bit of a wet dream there. Still, might just get nine holes in and an hour or so Skeet shooting before the day gets going proper.
BANG, BANG, BANG on the door. "Mr. President, Mr. President". "You gotta come, quick". BANG, BANG, BANG again. Wishing he had been given the chance to come, he opens the door with nothing but a towel around him he is greeted by his Homeland Security Secretary ready4somethingfun. Hey whats up, it's only 6 goddam 30 in the goddam morning
Mr. President he says, "We have a problem" (always wanted to say that!). All the illegals have gone, just vanished. We've got the phone ringing off the hook with irate CEO's from the agriculture and food processing industries ringing every Senator and Congressmen and women in the country demanding to know how we are going to keep food manufacture and supply going without them. The news wires are starting to get wind of something big happening. I've taken the liberty of calling an emergency meeting of the Senate and of Congress. We've even tried to get hold of that Senator from Nabraska who was on life support in hospital. Don't bother getting dressed you need to come now. Just stick your American flag lapel badge through your foreskin so your fully awake and lets go. Work to do. Oh, and Mr. President, good morning Sir, it's a beautiful day outside.
Tick tock. Only 23 1/2 hours to go.
P.S. Any time you want to start talking sence about the illegal immigration problem, let me know. Still got one wish left remember.
Stephen | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/14/2008 1:29:20 AM | As President, my first order of business will be to have the CIA bring me Stephen.
Then, after a short visit, without the tea and crumpets, I will have him delivered to Compton Blvd, in Compton, around 3 am. Let us see how his "compassion" gets him safely home to "Somerset."(It just HAD to be called Somerset!) Compton is about a 1/4 turn from there. Yeah. See it? That's it. Have a good time, mate.
SD | |
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| Illegal Immigration and The Upcoming Election: What Impact will it have
Posted: 8/14/2008 2:40:43 AM | I don't really understand why people are making it seem as if going around and deporting all illegal aliens is the best answer to the problem. I think it is a waste of money and there is a much cheaper and easier way to fix the problem that more our our citizens would agree with. Sure, deportation has been going on for decades, some years its higher than others. In a period of a year, Clinton deported over 150,000. Bush 43 deported over 200,000 in a year, though for the first term he did very little and was much more lenient on illegals than Clinton was.
Long time veteran border patrol officers have commented that the best way to fix the problem is to remove the incentives that draw illegal aliens here while increasing the number of border patrol agents to a minimum of around 30,000(while also having effective interior enforcement as well since close to half of all illegal immigration happens from people travelling here by car, plane or boat as visitors(temporarily legal, but illegal when they overstay their alloted visa time), but never leaving the country when they are supposed to.
States that have passed tough laws against illegal immigration such as Arizona, Oklahoma and Georgia have shown that illegal immigrants do leave those states in significant numbers on their own without needing to be deported, even though the laws that those states passed were poorly enforced, and far more illegals would have left on their own with much better enforcement of the laws.
One person warned if we cause illegals to leave then there will be the horror of deaths on a massive scale, but mass deaths did not happen when large numbers of illegals left Oklahoma and Arizona, so I believe this is just a scare tactic by this person who makes it sound as if the sky will fall if illegals leave. This person also makes it sound as if we can't function without illegal labor. I have known poor people who went on welfare because they could not find a job, and according to statistics, it was a city with a significant number of illegal aliens. How many able bodied people are on welfare or living off their parents that don't factor in to the unemployment rate? If illegals leave over a period of time(it should be done in a way that does not cause them to leave overnight, but in a more gradual stepped up enforcement of laws against employing illegals and giving them welfare so that most of them leave within a single presidential term, why a single presidential term, because presidents who would enforce the laws to the best of their ability are so hard to get it must be done within a 4 year term) and many more jobs come open, able bodied people on welfare can work again and get off welfare as well as many high school and college age kids could work again, since they often do not bother to look for work because its often too hard to find a job, and much easier to sponge off their parents.
If the federal government enforces laws on the books against illegal immigration in a very effective way, the problem of illegal immigration would mostly be a thing of the past and we could move on to solving other issues facing the country. Sure, some will not leave on their own, even without access to jobs and welfare, they could hide out with legal relatives or family members and live off of them as long as the relatives and family members are willing to tolerate it and others could get by making money through other illegal means of making money. The minority of illegals who don't leave on their own would face the danger of being caught and deported, as all illegals do, but since the number would be much smaller, it would not be as big of a deal and there really would be no need to go actively searching for them on a large scale, just the slow steady pace of perhaps up to 500,000 deportations per year, not all that much higher than what it currently is now.
One of the biggest problems we face though, is presidents refusing to fully enforce those laws to the best of their ability. We have never had a president that fully enforced laws against illegal immigration to the best of their ability, especially from Reagan onward to the present since 1986 was supposed to be the year the problem of illegal immigration would be solved, though it actually got worse because the 1986 amnesty enticed even more illegal aliens to come in the hopes they could sneak in here illegally and hide out long enough evading the law to get amnesty too. So, unless we can get a president in office who will enforce the laws to the best of his/her ability, the problem of illegal immigration will never be solved. Perhaps its time to start impeaching presidents(no matter what their party affiliation happens to be)who refuse to enforce the laws the best they can. If we did that, presidents in recent decades would have been threatened with impeachment, and rightly so. But in order to do that, we need to elect senators and representatives who care about stopping illegal immigration, as it stands now, there are too many who don't care as you can see by going here
http://www.betterimmigration.com/reportcardintro.html
Most illegals come here because they can make a better living here illegally than they can legally in their home countries. If you make it so that they can no longer work here(since its illegal for them to work here anyway)or get welfare here(also illegal for illegal aliens to get welfare benefits according to a 1996 law passed by Bill Clinton), then you've removed the biggest incentives that draw illegal aliens here and keep them here. To a lesser extent, another incentive is for illegals to come here and have children, so theat their children become automatic citizens which makes it easier for them to get welfare and remain in the country, though the citizenship clause of the 14th amendment was never intended to give automatic citizenship to the children of illegal aliens, its unfortunately been interpreted that way and many feel that should change by way of a direct supreme court challenge or congress exerting its section 5 powers, or a constitutional amendment, so that in the future, only at least one parent is a citizen would the child born here get automatic citizenship. As always, illegal aliens who have citizen children are allowed to take their children with them when they leave the country, or they can let them stay with legal relatives or family members if they prefer and the relatives or family members are ok with that.
Without those incentives that draw illegals here, few illegals would bother to come in the future, and most that are here would leave the country(some would go back to their home countries, some would go to Canada where the citizens there generally don't care as much about illegal immigration as they do here in the U.S., and as a result would have an easier time). Some say amnesty(giving citizenship to illegals)is the only solution, but I disagree. Amnesty causes too much incentive for people to come here illegally. Amnesty is not necessary nor desirable as a viable solution to the problem. Plus we tried that in 1986 under Reagan, and it was a huge failure because illegal immigration increased. We should learn from that mistake.
Illegal immigration is too easy now, there isn't much incentive for people to immigrate here legally when its easier to come illegally. Once illegal immigration becomes far more difficult and the incentives for illegal immigration such as jobs and welfare (easily obtained illegally) are mostly gone, then most people will instead attempt to come here legally in the future, as they should.
Some have said we should make it easier for immigrants to to come here legally(as it stands now though, our total immigration into the country heavily favors hispanics, mostly due to illegal immigration and the fact that they were blessed to live closer to the U.S. than other races who want to immigrate here, who come in in much higher numbers than blacks and asians and blacks and asians are becoming smaller and smaller minorities due to this unfairness in our immigration we allow in each year and all I seem to hear about on the news shows is how important the hispanic vote is, like that is the only race of voters that really matters anymore, and that sort of thing will get worse if our annual immigration is(and has been for decades) so heavily lopsided in favor of hispanics, and I firmly believe most U.S. citizens would like to see more fairness and diversity in our immigration system, not allowing any one race to flood in in much higher numbers for decades at a time), and I'd agree we should try to make it easier as I am a definite supporter of legal immigration in reasonable numbers, but I would not want to open the floodgates as some advocate, since I don't want to see this country have crushing overpopulation like China does in my lifetime or my children's lifetime. We take in over a million legal immigrants each year, I think thats plenty(and some say it should be lowered by a certain amount) and don't see the need to raise it to where we are taking in tens of millions per year, as some others I have debated in the past have advocated. Here is a link which I think is relevant on that point(though it is something from the 1990's and not as up to date as it could be, its still worth checking out)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhEwX18u7To | |
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