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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/12/2005 9:44:16 AM | | That's interesting. In the US even the mentally ill have the right to refuse treatment, as long as it is not a danger to their life, or the lives of others. Generally speaking, the only people who are hospitalized and forced to take treatment are the suicidal, homocidal, or those so whacked out they are incapable of staying out of harm's way. That's as far as the courts will limit their rights, at this point. While I agree that a more proactive approach could be helpful, we must be careful not to limit anyone's rights for a perceived outcome. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/12/2005 10:16:17 AM | bulldog - the mentally ill here also have the right to refuse treatment unless they are in imminent danger of harming themselves or others. Then, they can be held at a hospital for a certain number of hours (48 or 72 I believe).
I agree with your last statement - we must be careful not to limit anyone's rights for a perceived outcome.
Not everyone who is on the street is mentally ill though.
lyrical heart | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/12/2005 10:25:26 AM |
Not everyone who is on the street is mentally ill though.
True. There are no absolutes. But, I would say a good portion of them are, especially here in Michigan. Our former Governor John Engler (a Republican) shut down many of the state hospitals in favor of privatizing patients in a more social setting. I agree with his premise that it's economcially and psychologically advantageous to be in a group home setting, than a institution, but it's much harder to keep people off the streets, and away from drugs, etc. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/12/2005 12:02:04 PM | | Yes, it would be great to be able to donate what you have to offer and know that it is making a dent. But, donate your money to Zimbabwe, Bangledesh, Ethiopia, Guatemala, etc. and it will go toward the president's new Bentley. Don't fool yourselves. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/12/2005 8:00:17 PM |
True. There are no absolutes. But, I would say a good portion of them are, especially here in Michigan. Our former Governor John Engler (a Republican) shut down many of the state hospitals in favor of privatizing patients in a more social setting. I agree with his premise that it's economcially and psychologically advantageous to be in a group home setting, than a institution, but it's much harder to keep people off the streets, and away from drugs, etc.
The reason patients are taken out of hospitals and put into "group home" settings is to save money. I've seen group home settings for the elderly here in Florida. The food they serve I wouldn't feed to a dog, they have almost no help, they barely bathe the elderly, they barely run the A-C, the help they get is minimum wage (if that!). The people that own these "group homes" are without a doubt crooks. I saw one elderly woman having her head shoved and made to swallow a pill by force, while she screamed. The elderly do not thrive under such conditions, and I'll bet you the mentally disabled will not thrive in group home settings in Michigan, unless there's more money spent on them and there's hourly observation of these homes from government representatives. (And how likely is that, if what they're trying to do is save money). It sounds so warm and cozy, "group home", but in fact, it's a way to guarantee their early death from malnutrition, mistreatment, bad care, loneliness and an all-around bad life. The bottom line is what it always is: you have to spend money to get quality anything. We need to stop giving the rich our money and start spending it on the needy. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/12/2005 9:28:40 PM | | Will I do agree with you there the old folks are routely tortured and treated like hell here too, there's a group home here the management steals the old folks possessions for his own greed, I'm sure that happens everywhere had a friend in one of those places kept calling the police on them for mistreating her, Adult protective services would not do anything, finally threatened to take a guy apart and they kicked her out, shes in a better place now...Old folks, like poor homeless folks, like jail folks, mentally ill folks, are a business... | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/12/2005 11:19:39 PM | I just read that Bob Geldof is putting on another series of concerts called Live 8. Pink Floyd are setting aside their differences and have agreed to put on a free concert in Hyde Park. They have not performed together since 1981.
The event will focus on the plight of Africa once again.
Some care, most don't. It's a brutal world that I'm not proud of.
Robert Deniro when asked what he would say once reaching the pearly gates..."Someone has a lot of explaining to do!" | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/12/2005 11:43:53 PM | | Its not that no one cares...its just that in todays world "our" leaders make the choices that make the world the way it is today. And its all about Money and power and territory. Thats it. No one in power cares about the general population. The Human Race is so far off of what it could and should be. Thats just the way it is. World hunger and poverty will end one day, but its very likely none of us will be around to see it. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/13/2005 4:14:46 AM | The first step towards solving homelessness, is to cure mental illness. Not going to happen for a long, long time.
No, it's not. So another approach appears warranted...
mental illness cured???...how about limiting the rights of the mentally infirm first, in order to force them to get the help they need in order to function in a "normal society"? I think this step would go far to reducing homelessness.
Perhaps it WOULD go far in reducing homelessness. It would also go far in violating their fundamental rights. But gee, who cares about that. Luckily we think twice about that down here. And we don't "limit the rights of the mentally ill first." If ANYTHING, that should be, and generally is, a last resort. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/13/2005 12:36:02 PM | | They talk of being homeless here as if it's a disease and they are going to cure it...My take on it for some it's a choice I've been out there before when I was in my early 20's I liked it like camping out..Some people enjoy it...As a teenager I ranaway alot did not enjoy it then, but there's a certain sernity to sleeping under the stars... | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/13/2005 4:03:01 PM | Byrd, I agree that what you say is true, and it's been said before. Generally, what concerns me a lot is that YOU understand who you're referring to, and I understand too, but we've probably both heard people take that argument to the extreme and run with it as justification to ignore a humongous (sp? never typed that word before  ) societal problem.
So to everyone else, please don't take what he said out of context and use it to ignore the problem. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/14/2005 10:18:24 PM | I worked at a restaurant some years ago. I got to take home a HUGE salad everyday when I worked at night, closing shift. State regulations (Georgia, then) required that all salad be fresh, prepared that day, and what was leftover at the end of the day had to be thrown away. This meant that it could not be given to charity; instead it had to be wasted. Put that on a national level, and imagine how many TONS of perfectly good food are sitting in landfills. And that's just one tiny example. That amount alone could feed all the hungry in the US and beyond. You can take it for granted that this "sanitation" law will never be repealed, because it supports the veggie farmers, etc.
And that's taking an oversimplified view of things. Corruption hides it's tracks by making things complicated, lying, pointing fingers etc.
I doubt that the organizations who ask for money to help feed ppl in 3rd world countries are scams, but things aren't always as they seem. Food indeed gets shipped to Africa and South America, but that doesn't mean the ppl get to eat it. Sometimes it rots, sometimes it's confiscated by gov't and sold.
You can't make problems always go away just by throwing money at them. We pulled together billions to help the people recover from the tsunami, but the money's no good if we don't have volunteers go over and actually do work and HELP.
I know people who grew up middle class and ended up homeless. Yes they're mentally handicapped, and no amount of medication or counceling or discipline will make them capable of functioning like a grown adult. What meds they do get frequently end up on the homeless black market anyway. There is no cure, but I know that when their stomach empties it hurts just as much as mine. I'll frequently help those who ask, because it's better than authorizing a credit card deduction to some folks on a TV commercial. The best thing would be for people to put their heads together, boycott corrupt corporations and find a solution, because it wouldn't be as hard as people think -- he11 the food's ALREADY THERE. 'Til then, it's help the man on the streetcorner as often as I can, even one dollar at a time.
peace | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/15/2005 10:44:43 PM | My cost of living for next year is 36000 because of school. I get 14000 from financial aid. Not even enough to buy books for my classes if I want to pay rent. That still leaves food, books, gas, insurance, electricity and internet, and pets. Starting monday, I work 20 hours a week in a new lab, that should make the summer ok but the work study funds are cut off and my classload goes up to 18 credits fall term.
I care about poverty, and not just my own. I am working so that I can put myself in a position to help all this.
I think people care, but most of us struggle too much to help the rest very much.
Reminds me of a story.
We had been treading water for nearly an hour, trying to climb up on the spillway of a dam that the lake was close to flowing over. A kid that was with us was too emberassed to take off his pants to swim. His mom had just bought him some new levis 501's that were rediculously large. He swam from the logs out to the dam, almost made it and turned back around. then he started to drown, going under the water and all that. the shore was a hundred yards or so away. I dove under and untied his shoes, undid his belt and tore his pants off while holding him up best I could. I remember watching his pants flow from side to side as they slipped away into the depths. I surfaced and started dragging him back to shore. I yelled for my other friend to help, help. he was swimming to shore and never even turned around. I almost drowned myself doing this. when i got to the shore, i asked marshall why he didn't help me save shane. He said; "I was too tired."
I was twelve.
i guess, the point is that some people will do what they can, and others will try to do more than they can, and succeed in spite of it all. Those are the ones who will help the rest, those who feel compelled. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/15/2005 11:17:02 PM | | Sometimes I feel compelled to give the homeless guys on the streets some money. I don't really have any to give away but I do it because I feel bad they have to ask. Sometimes I think these people make more money than I do. As far as world hunger goes, I would love to help but I ran out of money feeding the homeless on my city streets. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/16/2005 2:23:49 AM | Captialism....
What more do we need to say? Capitalism is all about greed and the great pyramid scheme. A legal one of course. While money is constantly flowing "upward" to the big corporate CEOs and such, less is being distributed in the mid/lower wage citizens. We're starting to feel things get tight for ourselves, and suddenly forget about those overseas.
Watch how thing deteriorate in our own continent, let alone overseas.
That's one major issue I see. Some of us, even with the means to contribute, just don't for whichever reason.
There is enough money on this planet for all of us to live rich. I don't mean millionaires, but live very comfortably.
Does anyone have a total of how much money exists in the world? Is there such a total? | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/16/2005 3:49:09 AM |
i guess, the point is that some people will do what they can, and others will try to do more than they can, and succeed in spite of it all. Those are the ones who will help the rest, those who feel compelled.
Nice example. The sad thing is that those who are "compelled" often have to help at great personal sacrifice to themselves (as you pointed out.) Many social workers qualify for some of the same services (reduced-cost, NOT public assistance) housing, for example, because salaries are so low. A large part of the country walks around saying to social workers, "Oh, good for you. God bless you for being willing to do that. I would never want to do it myself, but someone has to." What is unsaid there is,"Now I'm going to go throw a fit about the taxes I pay. Your program will probably be cut but hey, I work hard for my money, why should I give it to some bum so he can drink and live off the state?" Maddening. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/16/2005 6:46:08 AM | What does it mean to give? You give a dollar a day to a homeless person, you have done no more to help that person then to make that person your private slave...that's the worst kind of lie. A self serving abuse of the word charity...leashing another human being's existence to your pity, your sense of self-serving righteous goodness, your blindness to the worse kind of evil in the world...apathy...It's a double noose destined to bring ruin to both ends
Disclaimer, I'm using you in the generic sense...
Captialism....
What more do we need to say? Capitalism is all about greed and the great pyramid scheme. A legal one of course. While money is constantly flowing "upward" to the big corporate CEOs and such, less is being distributed in the mid/lower wage citizens. We're starting to feel things get tight for ourselves, and suddenly forget about those overseas.
What a shallow understanding of an enduring economic principle..."have you ever asked what is the root of money?" -- Atlas Shrugged
That's one major issue I see. Some of us, even with the means to contribute, just don't for whichever reason.
There is enough money on this planet for all of us to live rich. I don't mean millionaires, but live very comfortably.
Does anyone have a total of how much money exists in the world? Is there such a total?
Have you been to China, Vietnam, Cambodia...have you seen what happens when you try to eliminate the "individual greed?" It's a grey ugliness like no other...worse then death...worse then a crazed life...it is not life...it is empty
Watch how thing deteriorate in our own continent, let alone overseas.
You say this is because of greed...of faceless CEOs and the rich upper class who hides their fortune from the masses, and exploits the weak, the unable, the oppressed... You say that the mass has sacrificed enough to earn a seat at the wealthy society's table... You say those who do not have...cannot maintain what they have, and cannot earn what they do not have, should be granted the "God given right" to another soul's property merely based on their "need" to survive... I say that "need" and that "right" is the greatest fabrication, the most detrimental thought, in the history of human kind... A thought you are entitled to have...but harmful one nevertheless. I say the deterioration of our own is a rotting moral which no longer encompass "all that I have is all that I've earned." I say the deterioration of our own is perfectly illustrated by this:
Its not that no one cares...its just that in todays world "our" leaders make the choices that make the world the way it is today. And its all about Money and power and territory. Thats it. No one in power cares about the general population. The Human Race is so far off of what it could and should be. Thats just the way it is. World hunger and poverty will end one day, but its very likely none of us will be around to see it.
I say the deterioration of our own is when we consider "we are powerless" as the actual state of being...when we, collectively surrendered the inescapable responsibility of choice, and pin the blame squarely on the few who braved "the outrageous slings and arrows" of hindsighted could've beens...we doom ourselves.
You say those who do not have are the escape goats of our failing utopia...I say those who have are the escape goats of our struggling utopia
You say to give is the most scared and percious acts of all....I say "one cannot give that which has not been created. Creation comes before distribution- or there will be nothing to distribute. The need of the creator comes before the need of any possible beneficiary. Yet we are taught to admire the second-hander who dispenses gifts he has not produced above the man who made the gifts possible. We praise an act of charity. We shrug at an act of achievement."--Ayn Rand....I say that our greatest failing has been to shrug at an act of achievement... | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/16/2005 12:54:45 PM | Some say that perhaps we should put a cap on the amount of money one can earn. WTF? Can you give this idea a name? "Limited Capitalism"? We already have light beer and cigarettes, how about "Communist light... now with less oppression." An idea as such is the antithesis of capitalism itself. For if having no limit on one's wealth isn't an option, why would people seek options at all? If I could make two million a year by introducing a certain product into the market, but Uncle Sam dictates that no person be allowed to make more than a million a year, might I not just keep my job at Wal-Mart?
From a "things that are socially acceptable" standpoint, this idea is already partially in place. People DO hide the amount of money they make, especially the super-wealthy. Some of it's to avoid taxes. Sometimes it's to avoid jailtime for monopolies and anti-trust agreements, or any one of countless reasons as such. People may not have money, but their companies/ corporations do -- and how convenient their name is on the owner's equity account? Their money is dispursed in stocks, bonds and other investments. It's hidden, divided amongst multiple bank accounts, many overseas. It's liquidated into goods, properties and assets.
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As far as charity goes...
You gotta look at the big picture. There will always be those who are incapable of fending for themselves. They may be just down on their luck for a while, they may be retarded. They could be down the street or overseas. You give them a dollar, they eat, McDonalds gets the dollar. You opt to put that dollar in the gas tank, Exxon gets your dollar. Tommorrow you return to the office, cussing at your blinky monitor and the permanently jammed copier and the leaky coffeepot. Tomorrow he wakes up in his cardboard castle and returns to the gas station to ask for more handouts. He's still retarded, and still hungry. Either he got to eat yesterday because of you, or because of someone else, or didn't.
Perhaps you could take the darwinist approach. Those who aren't strong enough to provide for society, much less their own means, are weak and will eliminate themselves individually so long as we quit pandering to them. Those who are left will make society strong, and have more of their earnings as less will go the incapable.
But wouldn't that be a blasphemy of playing God? You become the allmighty judge of character, dictating who lives and dies, merely by readjusting the outflow of your illusionary fiat paper and electronic debits for such?
At the other end is the Buddhist approach. Nirvana, want nothing. No materialism. Work because you believe in doing for others, keep food in your belly because it's there. Let all we have become available for others. But what then do we work for? No materialism, no technology, thus no jobs, then no food. Should society strive to live like the Amish, but without so many luxuries, just a robe and a puritan work ethic with no outlet?
* * * *** * * *
This is why I believe in the combination of capitalism and charity. I don't think charity should come in the form of unaccountable government programs that work off the Robin Hood principle. I believe in the Churches. Let those who can and want to give do so; let those who need their entire paycheck this month for the light bill, or want it for some toys, keep it. When one is down on their luck, let them come to the house of God. When one is too mentally defunct to function, let them seek help through charitable and caring people, not just wait in line to see the next clerk or counselor at department of 'Hood. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/16/2005 1:56:51 PM |
What does it mean to give? You give a dollar a day to a homeless person, you have done no more to help that person then to make that person your private slave...that's the worst kind of lie. A self serving abuse of the word charity...leashing another human being's existence to your pity, your sense of self-serving righteous goodness, your blindness to the worse kind of evil in the world...apathy...It's a double noose destined to bring ruin to both ends
Disclaimer, I'm using you in the generic sense...
Yow. Generally, I don't think it's wise to be so harsh on good intentions. Accomplishes nothing, and pushes people away that are generally concerned. Not to mention the presumptiousness of the statement. Yikes. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/17/2005 3:30:16 AM | | (So only people withOUT good intentions actually help others?!) I understand your point, but that's a gross overgeneralization. Seriously. And in any event, you're either missing or avoiding my point...and I REALLY hope you don't speak the same way to people going to or at a funeral!! | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/17/2005 5:16:53 AM | No, only people who recognize that the end state of good intentions are the satisfaction of the good samaritan and those who are less fortunate. I did not say good intentions did not benefit others at all, I merely stated that the PRIME purpose is to serve those who want a feeling of helping others.
There's nothing wrong with charity, as long as it is a personal choice...with the understanding that, first and foremost, it is self serving. The "I" comes before all else. There is something very very wrong with selling charity without acknowledging the self serving part. That is what constructs the most vicious of all lies. There is also some very very wrong with obligating charity. When it is no longer a personal choice, but a social standard...it loses its value.
And yes, I do talk to people that way at funerals. If they want to be pampered, they know they are better off else where. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/17/2005 6:17:40 AM | Mytho,
You sound like a purist really. You see nothing wrong with charity as long as people awknowledge its about them. So be it then. There is NOTHING wrong with being charitable because it makes YOU feel good. If you see a starving African child on t.v., doesn't anything stir inside you? Perhaps not lol. It often makes me feel pretty bad and it makes me want to help. And by perhaps donating some money..it makes you feel better...win-win situation as far as I see. Obligatory charity is an oxymoron. And what is the downside of charity becoming a social standard? Is it because people wouldn't be doing it for the "right" selfish reasons? Perhaps not everyone...but where is the harm done. You answered its because charity loses its value. That is true only to the extent you believe charity's value is only in its self-serving aspect. Are you denying the fact that charity can actually help those in need?
P.S. Do you really think any economic/ideoligical systen is perfect. Capitalism is not perfect. But it is not evil either. Especially in terms of techonological advancement...capitalism tends to work...I agree....see Joseph Schumpeter's "creative destruction" theory for instance which makes sense. | |
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