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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/21/2005 6:20:20 PM |
What I am suggesting as cruel as it may sound is sterilization....it's the only way I see to stop them from mass producing kids that are gonna starve.
There's a thread somewhere around here advocating for forced sterilization for mothers that receive public assistance... you might want to look for that one.
Personally, I think it's profoundly disturbing for any human being to presume that it is his/her place to force that on another. I guess all I can do is be thankful I live where I do. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/21/2005 6:36:00 PM |
old saying is "The LOVE of money, not money itself, is the root of evil." Money buys power.
Rand said that money is merely the "means" but not the "end" in itself. Money is merely an expression, a representation of production...its roots are produce, durable goods, and tanglible material forged by the hands and minds of thinking/rational people...its value is in the demand for the created product--the desire from those who want and the ingenuity from those who creat. She would agree with that the love of money is not the thing to focus on, and is unproductive ulimately....nor do I think I've used her quote out of context as my point was that money isn't necessarily the issue or the appropriate way to help someone. Another old quote, "A fool and his money are soon parted."
I'll sum it up...Suppose there were a starving child in the room where you are now suffering from severe malnutrition...and you had a sandwich at your elbow, wouldn't you give the sandwich to the kid, or at least take the kid to the hospital? By not doing so, how would you classify yourself, ethically? You have the POWER to save the child's life in a single instant, yet you choose not to. So, in effect, if you are letting the child die....Another philo...Hobbes, said that "...by giving alms to a begger.." he "...ended his own discomfort at seeing the man's discomfort." This a plausible explanation, but it doesn't necessarily become a universal maxim dictated by reason alone. There may be spiritual reasons, like the belief that the physical realm is the materialization of God, and, we, as humans, by spreading compassion through acts, are striving as a collective unit to become a more perfect creation.
Again, the concern from this statement is not the ultimate condition of the child, but rather, the ethical position of the would be savior...as previously stated, there's nothing wrong with helping others, as long as one recognizes and self-serving nature of it...Be it ethics or spiritual...the fundemental basic realization should be "I choose," not "should I?"
I for one, believe that if the USA spent its "military budget" on feeding the world, instead of the endless endeavors for expanding capitalism in the name of democracy we could create much more harmony in the world than we have allegedly done. I think the Native North Americans had some really good ideas concerning "ownership."
Perhaps...if we spent our military budget on producing crops, fertilizers, farming tools....perhaps we could produce enough food to feed the world...then what? Give it all away for free? How many people would really work, learn, and grow if they knew despite what they did...someone else will always labor to feed/shelter them? Let's not forget...some of our most advanced medical technology comes from military research...ultrasound, MRI, prosthesis, implants...etc Also, the military is the greatest ground for social experiment...TriCare...the government sponsored medicare program for the federal employees is an experiment on the limits of social medicare...both in cost and what it can realistically provide.
One more quote... parahrased ..."You seem to have this vision of America as this abstract construction of government out there somewhere... In reality, America is YOU and I, we are completely responsible for this country." ----Noam Chomsky
I think we agree on being responsible...but not on how to go about being responsible. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/22/2005 10:59:55 AM | @ mythos
Sorry, I didn't mean that you used the quote out of context, I've just never understood her point, it was directed at her, not you. But I am no Rand expert.
And I do agree, responsibility is a key issue. My other point, however, is that, altruism doesn't necessarily require egoism, or satiety of the self. Although, this has been endlessly debated over and over. Taking a Buddhist perpective, giving up the self projects one into a "clarified" way of thinking, and realizing that the self does not exist, in and of itself, and therein lies the illusion..of the "self." --the Observer becoming the Observed...etc.
My problem is not that the government doesn't spend any money to help less fortunate. (I oversimplified my statement) I just get agitated when government leaders WONT act in a situation like Darfur, simply because it can't define "genocide", like the UN is doing.
Or (not to get into a Rep/Dem issue), I think it is hypocritical to tear up a country like Iraq without a sensible plan to keep the people with basic necessities, of which they don't have, which is arguable, I guess, depending on your news source, to rid them of oppression. Or pound them with sanctions, which have never in history had positive outcomes on the masses.
So, I'm not talking about feeding my lazy neighbor because he smoked all his pot, and doesn't have any money for a pizza.
I work in a restaurant, and it really abhors me sometimes to see what people consider garbage, or inedible. I don't think people realize how good they got it in this country. Like, if I was a cow, I'd be kind of pissed if I knew that my ribs got thrown away, because the chef didn't glaze them right. I'll stop ranting now. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/22/2005 12:27:48 PM | Think globally and act locally.
I give to local foodbanks and charities but I never give money directly to the homeless.
I would rather give food to poor countries than a blank check that will be squandered.
BTW...I read the US is giving 50,000 tonnes of food to N.Korea. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/22/2005 6:16:48 PM | NittanyLion; No, I don't believe in sterilization for mothers that receive public assistance, for they aren't having 12 kids in North America, and their kids are not starving like the ones in Africa. We (fortunatley) have social programs in place to help the needy. Africa does not however, and all the more reason for them NOT to have so many children.
Profoundly disturbing that I think they should be sterilized? I don't know about profoundly disturbing!, but perhaps you are right that my attitude towards the situation is "off course". What would you suggest to do to stop these people from mass producing children they KNOW are going to die?
Do you find it profoundly disturbing that people in China are only allowed one child each to keep the population down? As least the chinese are smart enough to know that they cannot continue to mass produce kids and use up every resource, so they Don't end up like Africa.
Also, although I believe thier populations should be cut down, this isn't to say I wouldn't help! The upcoming Live 8 concert is a perfect example...rather then have a FREE concert, cost should have been around 20 dollars/ticket, with ALL of the proceeds going toward Africa. I would gladly have paid 20 bucks, getting entertainment , and knowing the money was actually going to them. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/23/2005 4:16:56 AM |
NittanyLion; No, I don't believe in sterilization for mothers that receive public assistance, for they aren't having 12 kids in North America
Well, this isn't true, but I understand what you're trying to get at. And I'm at least glad to hear that you don't support sterilization for that population. Although, I guess it's easy to say, "no, never us, just those bad, bad people over in Africa." (After all, you wouldn't really even have to hear about it, right?)
Profoundly disturbing that I think they should be sterilized? I don't know about profoundly disturbing!
That's the great thing about opinions and feelings. You don't HAVE to know about mine, and vice versa! To clarify, I think it is "profoundly disturbing" that you think you have any business imposing sterilization on anyone but yourself.
Also, although I believe thier populations should be cut down, this isn't to say I wouldn't help! Well then hopefully you are!
The upcoming Live 8 concert is a perfect example...rather then have a FREE concert, cost should have been around 20 dollars/ticket, with ALL of the proceeds going toward Africa. I would gladly have paid 20 bucks, getting entertainment , and knowing the money was actually going to them.
Well, it's easy to say what OTHER people should do, although you're taking that a step further by implying that your hands are tied because of it. What'd you do with that 20 bucks instead? The entertainers don't have control over that, YOU do, right? | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/23/2005 7:38:24 AM | @soc
My other point, however, is that, altruism doesn't necessarily require egoism, or satiety of the self. Although, this has been endlessly debated over and over. Taking a Buddhist perpective, giving up the self projects one into a "clarified" way of thinking, and realizing that the self does not exist, in and of itself, and therein lies the illusion..of the "self." --the Observer becoming the Observed...etc.
I had the distinct pleasure of being in Thailand/Malaysia earlier this year... It was a rather intoxicating feeling to waking up early in the morning, drive into work...and along the rushed traffic on well paved roads banked by mist covered jungles, walked monks in their saffron robes...out on their daily begging ritual. It was refreshing to see...the bald head, the bared feet, the steady pace as they progressed from one home to another. Yet I could never reconcile the fact that they are asking for alms from the people who hasn't escaped "the wheel of life." From classic Hinoyana Buddhism to its Mahayana off shoots, the core has always been to reach the nirbana (or nirvana depending on which translation you read) you described.
The conflict in the rational has always been, at least for me...buddhist monk says, "I want nothing, through the nothingness of no good or evil, possession or no possession, I arise above these mortal coils, above the wheel of life, and achieve the ultimate. Not only that, but by supporting my quest for the ultimate nothingness, and giving alms to me, you build merit toward your own karma, so that someday, you might escape these coil too." Yet the very thing that sustains them...alms...is inherantly an offspring of those who see value in the worldly, the very wheel of life which sustains the layman. That is to say, there can be no alms without those who can live in the mortal world, produce alms, and care to give alms...the very mortal world the belief is directed towards escaping... But the quest is also for neither good, nor evil, since both are of the wheel of life...so even if one is to participate in alms, one's only really perpetuating one's stay in the wheel of life...
After that long winded rant...I guess it comes down to...to Rand, and to myself...ego is a neccessary state before one could be altruistic. There can be no gift or "sacrifice," if nothing is produced first...to produce, one must say the words, "I want, I desire, I create." | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/23/2005 8:54:46 AM |
you're taking that a step further by implying that your hands are tied because of it. What'd you do with that 20 bucks instead?
Actually, I do feel my hands are tied with third world countries, as out of every $20 donated, the poor countries would only receive $2, and I refuse to feed the rich with the scams of the organizations that keep the other 90% of donations for "administration costs"...which really, is lining thier administrators pockets with a $50,000 - $100,000 salary or more.
You didnt answer my question about what would you suggest to stop these people from mass producing kids they know will die....... | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/23/2005 4:53:03 PM | | I'm still not understanding why sterilization is seen as barbaric, but aborting a fetus is seen as modernly humane. Isn't it better to sterilize someone, than to kill a baby, or let a baby starve to death? | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/23/2005 7:40:08 PM | | Sterilization itself is not barbaric...it is forcing it upon people that is. By all means provide the option for those that make an informed choice. "some" people wouldn't rather watch these kids on tv that are dying horrible deaths instead. Instead they would rather donate to NGO's that are transparent about how they spend donated $$$. Some do a pretty good job actually....the whole bit about 90% of funds going to admin...is not a good excuse given the number of organizations that do good work out there. During the whole tsunami relief effort for example, Doctors Without Borders actually urged people to stop donating to them because they had more than enough to do the work they had to do in the region...indicating to me that at least this organization is run pretty ethically. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/23/2005 7:45:52 PM | | See, I still think that forcing someone to be sterilized is more humane than aborting viable embryos, or having children that will die horrible starving deaths. Kind of a lesser of two evils, if you will. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/23/2005 7:56:05 PM | | Well, I did read "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", and I like to think I know better than to relate all opinions different than mine as Nazi-esque in nature. It's unfortunate that some people seem to know so little about our recent past, and love to throw around words like "fascist" or "zieg hail" without realizing what it means. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/24/2005 4:35:13 AM | In any event...
It's not about which act is "worse." There's a fundamental difference between allowing (or forbidding) a choice and forcing a medical procedure on someone. If you're going to talk about that difference, then talk. If you just want to play the "which is worse" game, then fine. But mixing the two effectively cuts off any reasonable discussion, in my opinion. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/24/2005 5:58:39 AM | | You must understand, that from a pro-life viewpoint, a medical procediure is still being forced onto someone, namely the baby. While you may not agree with that view, it is valid in our eyes. So, that "difference" is not really so different. Only that one procedure ends with a horrible death, and the other procedure prevents horrible deaths from happening again. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/25/2005 8:36:55 AM | | I have to agree with Bulldog on sterilization because it's the lessor of two evils.Sterilization not only saves a child from a life of disease and starvation it also saves mothers who might die giving birth.If people in poor countries could be responsible about reproduction then sterilization would not be needed.A couple of years ago the US pledged $6 billion to fight AIDS and poverty in Africa...I think 6 billion condoms would have been better. | |
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| World hunger/poverty...do we really care?
Posted: 6/25/2005 8:42:57 AM | Regardless of which we feel is the "lesser of the two evils," I still don't think it's about that. There are other ways to address the problem... it's not an either/or kind of a thing. Regardless, it's disturbing for anyone to suggest that a "fix" to problems associated with poverty is sterilization. But there's a thread about that... And I like it. Less chance for the scary, immoral, self-important crazies to sneak up on you when the thread is clearly marked. | |
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