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 Ninki
Joined: 4/11/2005
Msg: 120
Why is porn bad for children?Page 6 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
I didn't read any of the answers people posted to this question. Just want to ask why anyone would even *ask* this?? I think porn (and with that I'm mainly talking about hard-core XXX porn) is bad for adults. It has absolutely no redeeming value other than to cater to the most perverted fantasies people could possible have. I believe it's already done irreparable harm to society as a whole.

N.

 Ninki
Joined: 4/11/2005
Msg: 121
Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 8/27/2008 6:38:18 PM

some people are confusing seeing naked people, with porn.


Right! Nudity by itself is not porn.


there is alot of cultures that have walked the world naked, in front of their kids


And those are also the healthiest cultures with the viewest hang-ups and repressions.

N.
 o76923
Joined: 11/3/2007
Msg: 122
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Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 8/27/2008 11:30:33 PM
moonchild, you are overlooking one major factor in the idea of asking your child. Namely, she is your child. This has the twin effects of making sex/sexuality more difficult to talk about with you and her views are largely shaped by yours. So really, it could only be worthy of note if she disagreed with you. Even then it wouldn't be terribly surprising though because a significant number of teens go through a "rebellious' stage. So really, a statistical sample of convenience with a sample size of one where there is no control for bias literally means nothing. From a statistical point of view anyway.

================================================

I also want to go back to the OP for a second and reconsider the premise that we are discussing the topic. Right now there are fundamental differences in definition of what constitutes porn. Whether it is limited to hardcore pornography or whether softcore pornography is also porn is currently up for debate.

I also want to point out that the intent of this discussion is unreasonable if there is an assumption in place that pornography is bad. The original question was "what makes pornography bad for children", with the implication of "if it's ok for adults." If we were to take the stance that pornography is bad for all people then of course it's bad for children because children are a subset of all people. It's an utterly meaningless debate if that is what is correct. So if it is assumed that pornography is bad for all people, then there isn't a question because in the premise for the thread, the only question is answered by definition.

Logically it follows then that if we cannot assume (for purposes of the discussion) that pornography is bad for all people, then we are forced to conclude that pornography is not bad for some people. Whether or not you personally agree with the statement is irrelevant, but for this discussion to take place, you have to assume that pornography is ok for some people.

====================================================

I'd also like to ask the following question of the anti-porn for kids people: Given that teenagers are sexual beings (they are based on hormones, that's not up for debate anymore than gravity is), what alternative to pornography and masturbation do you propose? Should teens just start having open sexual experimentation starting at 13 or younger?
 novascotialass
Joined: 2/4/2007
Msg: 123
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Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 8/28/2008 2:52:15 AM
"I'd also like to ask the following question of the anti-porn for kids people: Given that teenagers are sexual beings (they are based on hormones, that's not up for debate anymore than gravity is), what alternative to pornography and masturbation do you propose? Should teens just start having open sexual experimentation starting at 13 or younger?"

Hi o

Your question really refers to boys only, I think, since teenage girls don't have the same sexual urgency as boys at that age. But since boys do have that great need, then why would they need pornography to masturbate? I had that question before when someone mentioned that Bleu Nuit got them through the teenage years (different thread). I'm sure they would survive "by the palm of their hand" even without soft or hard core porn. I guess what I'm saying is that porn isn't essential for sexual self-discovery and I doubt that not having it on hand would lead to kids having sex at a young age.
 Ninki
Joined: 4/11/2005
Msg: 124
Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 8/28/2008 5:02:27 AM

I'd also like to ask the following question of the anti-porn for kids people: Given that teenagers are sexual beings...


Oh, I thought the OP was talking about younger children, not teens. Hardcore porn is probably not good for teens, either, since they get a totally distorted picture of man-woman relationships and of sexual relations between people. It seems to me that 12- to 17-year-olds are able to get porn quite easily and they are becoming quite screwed-up sexually because of it. Also, it's possible to masturbate without looking at porn.


Should teens just start having open sexual experimentation starting at 13 or younger?


It's not a matter of 'should' or 'shouldn't', but do they want to? Some are so inclined and will, whether adults approve or not, others will not.

N.
 Moonchild51
Joined: 3/11/2007
Msg: 125
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Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 8/28/2008 5:23:01 AM

moonchild, you are overlooking one major factor in the idea of asking your child. Namely, she is your child. This has the twin effects of making sex/sexuality more difficult to talk about with you and her views are largely shaped by yours. So really, it could only be worthy of note if she disagreed with you. Even then it wouldn't be terribly surprising though because a significant number of teens go through a "rebellious' stage. So really, a statistical sample of convenience with a sample size of one where there is no control for bias literally means nothing. From a statistical point of view anyway.

^^All due respect, I do in fact enjoy a very healthy relationship with my daughter, wherein we discuss a great many things. And as far as your "statistics" are concerned? I raise my children by what I believe to be in their best interests, nothing more. Children already have a great deal more to contend with in today's world than when I was a kid without pushing more on them that they cannot understand due to their tender formative years. You are young with a thought process that I cannot and do not wish to understand. It is simply not right no matter how you present it. I will not post further in this thread as you are not even open to trying to understand what it is that I am trying to say.
 trevilady
Joined: 8/8/2008
Msg: 126
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Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/15/2008 6:34:36 PM
well said, ameerra, I almost feel I wished I had not been drawn into this debate because it is just so obvious to me that kids must be protected from adult ways and interests...however harder and more cynical life has become, childhood is still a very precious time, it is so important to have a few years of innocence and to just be a child. And I can say all that while absolutely agreeing with some people who have posted on here, who say that kids should not be brought up in a prudish way where they are never exposed to anything about sex, ever. I agree, of course: having an ovewrly puritanical attitude to sexuality in the home is regressive and will cause kids to grow up thinking sex is wrong, or dirty, or that the changes they will go through in puberty are embarrassing or that they must not talk to their parents about anything sexual. Of course, encourage openness and frankness and honesty in the home , with our growing kids. But at the right agae, and CERTAINLY, please , protect them from pornography x
 Ameerra
Joined: 6/27/2008
Msg: 127
Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/15/2008 7:13:00 PM
^^^^^^ There is a number of choices within the divide between exposure to porn and prudish puritanical preaching about sex.

I talk to my daughter freely about sex all the time, but I let her guide me as to what she's ready to hear. She let's me know very clearly when the information is too much. Usually, it begins with, "OOOOOhhhhh, Mommmmm!!! Yuck!" - and she's 14.
 Bright1Raziel
Joined: 8/20/2005
Msg: 128
Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/16/2008 4:30:32 AM
it is just so obvious to me that kids must be protected from adult ways and interests...


I agrea they have to be protected, but i disagrea with how you think they should be protected.


Of course, encourage openness and frankness and honesty in the home , with our growing kids. But at the right agae, and CERTAINLY, please , protect them from pornography x


I think you have to do more than this. You have to teach them what pornography is if you are going to teach them to avoid it!

"Beware the Snarlak!"
"Whats a Snarlak?"

How is a child supposed to know that hose photos thier uncle is taking are wrong if you do not teach them about it?

You have to teach children what the bad things are if you are going to have any hope of getting them to stear clear of them. The only alternative is to never, ever let them out of your sight, or to speak to anyone without knowing what the person is going to say or do first. Keeping children in a buble, seperated from the world, will protect thier inocence, but it will also destroy any chance they have of growing up into a normal well adjusted adult!

-----------------------------------------------------------

The people who champion porn, IMO, very conveniently ignore its ties to illegal child sex trafficking, pedophilia, drugs/alcohol/sex addiction, incest and sexual violence.


That is because these things are as related to pornography as they are to video piracy, buying duty free ciggarets, hells angels, fast cars, fottbal holaganism and cheep mp3 players from Tiwan. Its about money and power.

Lets go through the list shall we.

Illeagle child sex trafficing.
This is about money and power, not pornography. The people who steal and sell children are doing so for a profit, not to make pornography. Almost every child sold into sex slavery is sold to a pimp, who prostitues them out. The few that aren't sold to pimps are sold to pedophiles as private slaves!

This has nothing to so with pornography. This is slavery and I can think of anyone I know who would belive that they pornography and slavery are the same thing.

Pedophilia.
This is a perversion that has nothing to do with pornography. It is about power. The pedophile wants to be able to groom, or teach thier victims, about thier twisted world view. Before peopls go spouting off about how evil and twisted pedophiles are, they should read some of the research and find out more about it.

Almost all pedophiles were the vicitms of under age sexual assults, mostly by close friends or familly, who groomed them for the role. The only time pornography ever comes into the pedohpile/victim velationship is as a teaching tool from the pedophile. they use it to explain thier sexual views to children and to convince them its right and okay. (Note: If a child has been given information about pornography from a source they trust more than the pedophile, then this grooming method fails completely, which is why I belive it vital to teach your child about sex and all thats related to it, before someone else dose!)

Drugs/alcohol/sex adiction.
These are extreamly complex issues and have little to do with the subject they are bassed on. Anyone can be the subject of an addiction and for many reasons.



Exposing children to the violence, masochistic, mysogynistic imagery and boundary-less world of ..... before their impressionable minds can interpret what they are seeing is and should be a CRIME.


Firstly, It is a crime.
Secondly, how do you explain to child that pornography is to be avoided without explaining what pornography is? It would be like trying to teach math without numbers... it is posable, but a child would not understand it.

You can not simply tell a child to avoid something, you have to explain what that thing is and why they should avoid it. And you have to do so honestly, because children eventually see through lies and seek proper explanitions for things they do not understand. so you can not simply, say porn is bad because it will hurt you, because they will want to know how and why it will hurt them.

-----------------------------------------

And finally. Who sais that children are inocent?
A two year old is incapable of being altruistic. They are the most selfish people on the planet. Children learn to be kind and caring and to have fun and to be curious and to learn, ect, ect, as they grow.
They take these things from thier role models. So if thier role models teach them that sex is not a big issue and something that adults do but not children, then the child will not be intrested untill they grow up.
 trevilady
Joined: 8/8/2008
Msg: 129
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Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/16/2008 5:08:58 AM
I disagree with you. I do not think it is necessary to tell kids what pornography is, in order to tell them it's wrong. That's like saying, put a kid into a burning house to explain to him that fire hurts you.

There is no need to expose kids to the adult world of violent or pornographic films, when they are young, and I'm not going to contribute to this subject any more as it's encouraging people to write potentially dangerous and upsetting comments about how it's ok to subject kids to such things and I feel a bit upset about it.

Why do you disagree with the way I feel kids should be protected ? you did not read my posts. Of course, it goes without saying that you should warn your kids about strangers, 'don't take sweets from strangers' was always one I was told, and obviously, you discuss with them that if someone takes inappropriate photos of them, then they must come to their parents , or tell parents if anyone says anything or does anything that makes them feel uncomfortable. Of course, tell kids what the potentially bad things are, in life. But I agree with you, that you mustn't put them in a bubble of over-protection, either. It's just intelligent, sensible parenting. That goes without saying. Hopefully if you have encouraged trust and openness between your kids and you, you will root out if anything wrong has happened to your kids because they will have been brought up in that atmosphere of trust and openness, and they will come STRAIGHT to you, if god forbid anything bad happened to them at the hands of a third party. Or you as the parent, will sense something is wrong. Naturalness, love and communication is the key.

And I didn't say that kids per se are 'innocent', i said that 'childhood' is an innocent time. There is plenty of time when we are adults, to be cynical and hard and go to the more 'dark side' of life, in whatever form that takes, be it drink, drugs, porn, multi relationships, sex, and far more extreme activities. But i look back on my childhood, and I thank god that for a few years, my parents encouraged me to have that precious innocent time. And sure, within that time, there were difficulties, you can't protect your kids from everything, we were subjected to terrible rows, and my father's drinking. But thank god we were protected from anything like the title of this topic. Yes i agree with you that kids are selfish and not totally innocent, that's again obvious.
 Bright1Raziel
Joined: 8/20/2005
Msg: 130
Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/16/2008 5:33:36 AM

That's like saying, put a kid into a burning house to explain to him that fire hurts you.


No its not. I didn't say you had to expose children to pornography to make them understand it, I said you have to explain it them honestly.

Its like puting a child in a building thats not burning, sitting them down and explaining to them what fire is, and that fire can severly hurt you, so not to play with it.


you discuss with them that if someone takes inappropriate photos of them, then they must come to their parents ,


I did read your posts and I do agrea with you on the whole, but I do not think (IMHO) that you go far enough in expaining things to children.
Children do not instictivly know what is inapropriate, like swearing for example. You have to teach that what inapropriate means and explain to them what things are inapropriate.


or tell parents if anyone says anything or does anything that makes them feel uncomfortable


Again, things that make us uncomfortable, do not always make children uncomfortable. Most things are uncomfortable to us because we have learned to be disgustred by them. But a baby that comes across a dog poo on the floor will play with it! A child in the garden will eat bugs, slugs and worms! And a child that is upset by something can be made to like that thing by a patient person! (My ex's son was terified of baths after an incident where his grandmother dunked him under, but after a few secions, we were able to get him to not only be comfortable near water again, but to actually enjoy bath time again by making it seem fun!)

Most four year olds have such little understanding of sex that they are not in the least bit uncomfortable asking about it, but thier parents are. You can not relly on a child coming to you if they feal uncomfortable, you have to exaplin to them what sort of things they should be informing you about.

I personaly feel that children are not given enough credit for thier knowledge and understanding of the things that are going on around them. It is often a suprise to couples who are divorced that even young children know when thier parents are being spitefull about thier ex partners, or that thier children are manipulating both sides to get what they want. Children are far more aware than we give them credit for and we should always try ti give tham as much detail as they can handle in any given situation.

when it comes to this topic, I do not belive ther should be any mollycodling or beating around the bush, I belive it is best to just explain things to children as fully as you can and try to ake your point as clear as posible. Otherwise they will learn about porngraphy from another source and may not learn the leasons about it that you want them to learn.
 trevilady
Joined: 8/8/2008
Msg: 131
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Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/16/2008 6:16:40 AM
for the love of all that is good and true, i didn't go 'far enough' in how I advocated explaining things to children, because there is only so much you can write on here and only so many hours in the day to devote to this issue and i believe in common sense, honest, good communication with your kids, warning them about all types of bogeymen, protecting from the evils of the world as much as you can!!

Of course I believe in teaching your kids not to do certain things and behave in good ways and not to swear. It's common sense, close, watchful caring and intelligent parenting. Too many people do NOT care about what their kids are watching/doing, and they don't have filters at home to block porn sites, and they just sit their kids in front of computers and tv's and don't take an active enough interest in what the kids are doing, alone in their bedrooms. I would NOT let my kids have comps and tv's in their rooms.

At least we can agree on warning them, yes, but holy crap, at least we agree that you shopuldn't actually SHOW them the stuff.And like I said before, the sort of porn out there is much worse than in the 60's 70's and 80's especially on the net. i agree with you on a lot of what you say later in your last post, especially that kids are far more aware than we give them credit for, again, the trick I find (and I teach kids) is not to talk down to them, not to patronise, ever, but to talk to them frankly, honestly, and listen to their concerns and fears, always listen, don't think just cos they are kids that somehow they are not as important as us. Always make them feel loved, heard, seen and important. But not let them run rings around us cos yes they can be selfish as hell and if you're not careful you can end up getting twisted round their little fingers and have to swing them in those damn swings for the whole day ( but ahhh we love 'em)

anyway take care x
 trevilady
Joined: 8/8/2008
Msg: 132
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Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/16/2008 6:19:11 AM
sorry I didn't mean to say holy crap! well, holy maybe but not crap :))xx
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 133
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Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/16/2008 7:01:53 AM
RE msg 179 by Bright1Raziel:
I think you have to do more than this. You have to teach them what pornography is if you are going to teach them to avoid it!

"Beware the Snarlak!"
"Whats a Snarlak?"

How is a child supposed to know that hose photos thier uncle is taking are wrong if you do not teach them about it?
You have to teach your child what bleach is, to teach them to avoid it. But you don't need to make them drink it, to do that. Nor do you have to show them the harm that bleach causes, by drinking it yourself. But if you think different, I am sure that many parents will let you drink bleach in front of their children, just so those kids see just what it does to you, so they'll never drink it themselves.

Pedophilia.
This is a perversion that has nothing to do with pornography. It is about power.
Rape is a crime of power, not of sex. Being a pickup artist, or a player is all about the chase, about the challenge, not about the sex. But challenges are just seeing if you can win over the situation, seeing if you have the power to overcome the overcome the obstacles. The ONLY men I have EVER heard say that sex was just about the pleasure of it, were homosexuals who were having sex with other homosexuals.

Since paedophilia, rape, and being a player is all about power, not sex, why would you imagine that most pornography is any different?
 Bright1Raziel
Joined: 8/20/2005
Msg: 134
Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/16/2008 8:33:31 AM
trevilady

The more you say, the more I find I agrea with you.

But there are still a few things I want to point out. For example, what is comon sense to one person is a completely alien prospect to another person.

We talk about things being comon sense, like spanking children is harfull to them. But just beacuse it is comon sense dose not make it true. Its not exactly my area of specialty but I do know that it is nearly imposable to prove that spanking a child (Note: I am talkinag about a short, sharp, slap on the wrist or spank on the bum, not a punch in the stomache or slap in the face.) dose long term damage. Most of the people I know were spanked as a child when they did something really bad and they are well adjusted adults. I don't want to go into a discusion of spanking here, i'm just trying to illustrate the point that what one person belives to be comon sense is not a view shared by all.


the sort of porn out there is much worse than in the 60's 70's and 80's especially on the net.


Only to a degree.
I'm an Archaeologist specialising in human evolution and gender roles.
As such I have spent numerous hours looking at all kinds of pornography from all kinds of civilsations and time periods. There are woodcuts from 15th century germany that depict quite graphic coprophagia and scat play the likes of which I have (thankfully) never seen on the internet.

Pornography is just another type of fasion, and is subject to the same environs that all fasions, like music, art and clothing, are subject to. Pornography has fads just like any other fasion and it has rules that vary from culture to culture and vary over time.

The pornography of the 70's and 80's is in no way any less extream than the pornography of today, it was just less mainstream. In the 70's, if you wanted to see a pornographic film, you had to go to an adult thetre, now you just have to go online. Back in the 70's, if you wanted to meet other people with the same sexual predalictions as you, you had to join a letters club at the back of a porn mag, now you just have to search google.

The pornography has not become more or less extream than it ever was in the past, it has just become more mainstream due to being more accessable. The extream types of pornography are still not the norm. The majority of pornography sold worldwide is softcore pornography and this has always been the situation. The difrence now is that people do not care if you buy softcore porn nowerdays where as it was seen as still eing dirty in the 70's, so now the focus is on the more extream groups such as Watersports and S&M. These things were around in the 70's, they were just increadibly hard for people to get hold of.

scorpiomover

you don't need to make them drink it, to do that. .... But if you think different, I am sure that many parents will let you drink bleach in front of their children, ...


Thank you for the kind words, its so refreshing to see that people can still discuss without resorting to petty insults.
If you actually read my last post, you will note that I specifically state you do not need to show a child pornography.


The ONLY men I have EVER heard say that sex was just about the pleasure of it, were homosexuals who were having sex with other homosexuals.


I have heard many men say that thier particular perversion was all just because they got pleasure from it. Male on male homosexuality is as much about pleasure as any other sexual practice. There is often just as much power play involved in a male on male homsexual relationship as there is in an average hetrosexual relationship.


Since paedophilia, rape, and being a player is all about power, not sex, why would you imagine that most pornography is any different?


Because pornography has nothing to do with power, it is about titilation. Pornographers make works that they know will apeal to a particular audiance and provide them with sexual stimulation. People buy pornography to be stimulated. How could you even get a power rush from buying pornography? The only person who is being taken advantage of in (legally made) pornography, is the consumer. there is no power trip here.

There is indead pornography that shows some quite sever degredation of women that some men would get a power trip out of viewing, but the same is true of the oposite side also. There is some quite extream pornography that depicts women torturing men for pleasure. But these pornographic forms are quite rare statistically speaking. Almost all of the pornography you can find worldwide is softcore pornography. Most softcore pornography shows either a person by themselfe or a couple being intamate, and as such it has nothing to do with power, but is all about titilation.
 Jan Sobieski
Joined: 7/4/2008
Msg: 135
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Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/16/2008 9:03:40 AM
I beleive that all children should witness the majesty that is " Schindlers Fist".
Or failing that, at least read my latest book, "A Pure Critique of Butt Sex" .
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 136
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Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/16/2008 6:47:37 PM
RE msg 185 by Bright1Raziel:

scorpiomover

you don't need to make them drink it, to do that. .... But if you think different, I am sure that many parents will let you drink bleach in front of their children, ...
Thank you for the kind words, its so refreshing to see that people can still discuss without resorting to petty insults.
Where did I insult you? I merely stated an option if you doubted it.

If you actually read my last post, you will note that I specifically state you do not need to show a child pornography.
I tried reading post 181. All I found was this:
I didn't say you had to expose children to pornography to make them understand it, I said you have to explain it them honestly.
Do you mean to say that because you stated that you DIDN'T say that you had to expose a child to pornography to make them understand it, that was the same as you stating that no-one NEEDED to expose a child to pornography to make them understand it? To me that is not the same. It might be semantics to you, and if that is your intent, I appreciate that. But I've known enough people to use language ambiguously to require you to be clear.

I have heard many men say that thier particular perversion was all just because they got pleasure from it.
I have heard some SIMILAR statements from men, but they didn't use the word pleasure in quite the same context as you just did, more of an ethereal pleasure, such as the pleasure that a bully gets from torturing another child, because of the pleasure of knowing how much power he wields over the child. Maybe I should have been clearer in that homosexual men were the only men I know of who were clear that for them, sex was only about the physical pleasure of sex, rather than the emotional pleasure of control over others. If that was misunderstood, I apologise.

Male on male homosexuality is as much about pleasure as any other sexual practice.
Theoretically, yes. But people respond to the vagaries of pleasure in different ways. From the homosexual men and the heterosexual men I've known, the 2 groups have an entirely different attitude to sex.

There is often just as much power play involved in a male on male homsexual relationship as there is in an average hetrosexual relationship.
I don't doubt that one man often assumes a feminine role and another man assumes a more masculine role, or that they interchange. But that is discussion of a RELATIONSHIP, the process of relating. Business relationships are RELATIONSHIPS. They also are often between men and men, and there is a power play there too, often just as much as in a romantic relationship, often far more. Even in friendly RELATIONSHIPS, which we call friendships, there is often a power play there too, sometimes just as much as in a sexual relationship. But that is the nature of RELATIONSHIPS. Sexual relationships have a power play in them because of the relationship aspect. But since the relationship, the continuing connection between the 2, continues and becomes more important as time goes on, the power of the relationship becomes more important than the power of the sex, because the necessities of supporting oneself, of supporting one's children, of being exposed to physical abuse, and of being exposed to emotional abuse, are going to increase due to the constant relating and dependence that comes with any relationship, whether sexual, business or otherwise.

Because pornography has nothing to do with power, it is about titilation.
I can see the argument. After all, you are enjoying it to get a "rush", a titillation, right? How is that to do with power?

If you are watching a comedy where you relate to the character who is being made fun of, then obviously it is about the titillation of humour.

However, if you are watching such a comedy, and you turn off the comedy, BECAUSE you identify with the character who is being made fun of, and that makes you uncomfortable, then you don't enjoy the the titillation of humour when it appears to you that YOU are the butt of the joke.

But being humiliated doesn't change you. All it shows you is that you are humiliated when you don't want to be, because you LACK the power to stop it happening.

It is the feeling that others can do things to you that you don't want to happen, and you cannot control it, that you lack the power to control it, that makes it uncomfortable.

So if you tell me that a man watches an episode of the comedy like Peep Show, where one of the males characters is forced to have sex with a woman, and his flat-mate points out to him that he was "raped", and he identifies with that man, and he laughs anyway, and enjoys it, then I would say that if he watched pornography, then he enjoys the titillation. But if it makes him feel uncomfortable, or he doesn't identify with that character, then we could not be sure. As most men I know who might relate to that character would find that uncomfortable, I would doubt the aspect of titillation.

On the other hand, there are many men who would find it hilarious to watch an old Jerry Lewis film, precisely because they relate well to the guy humiliating Jerry. They enjoy wielding power over others, and they enjoy watching it, because they can identify with the bully, and they can see themselves as being that bully. It is no different for them than watching an ad for ice cream on TV, and wanting that ice cream. You see it, you identify the ice cream as though you might eat it in your home, you feel some of the same pleasurable feelings as if you were eating it right then. That stimulates the appetite, and makes you want to buy it.

If you do not have that nature to identify with characters and things that you watch, I can understand your surprise at this concept. However, the overwhelming majority of people I have known DO identify in this way, and that is in the thousands.

As a result, it is only natural for men to watch porn, to experience titillation, because they can imagine themselves doing those acts to the other people in the film. This explains why heterosexual men really don't like watching gay porn at all, because they also can imagine themselves having sex with other men just by watching it, and they aren't comfortable with it, because it makes them question the way they think about themselves.

So my conclusion, based on how I've seen and heard other men react to porn films, is that these men enjoy the experience of imagining themselves in that role.

However, this is not the whole story. Every few years, a story comes out that a group of men are wolf-whistling women as they go by, and ONE woman decides to go up to one of the men, asks him for a f*ck, and the man gets all sheepish, and refuses. Why? Because the wolf-whistling is titillation, but only when the man is in control. When the woman is calling the shots, when she is the one taking control, when she is the one with the power, the man doesn't want it.

Those stories mean little in themselves, mainly because they are only one in tens of thousands of situations. What is incredibly telling, is that other men hear them, and NEVER DISAGREE! I have heard these stories pass the rounds, and other men either agree, get all sheepish and silent, or make such an appallingly bad effort at protestation that it is obvious they are BS-ing.

That is ONE reason why I don't think that pornography is actually simple titillation, because it appears in my experience to be a scene that men who enjoy it can imagine and relate to, and because in the situations that they can relate to where they have no control in a sexual context, they get very uncomfortable, and prefer to find a situation where they are in control.

So I agree that pornography is titillation for men, but it is titillation of the imagination where the man is in control, and without that control, most men simply would not enjoy it.

That is why so many heterosexual men are so uncomfortable watching gay porn. They could just say to themselves: "I wouldn't do that, so it doesn't bother me". But they don't, because in that situation, they would feel pressured to act that way. So they would just rather imagine they would never get into that situation in the first place, and the way they do that, is by switching it off.

So yes, I do think pornography is about a sense of control for the man who watches it.

As a result, it is a power trip. A subtle power trip, as most power trips are. But a power trip, nevertheless.

I agree that children need to be taught about things to know right from wrong. But children need to understand the dangers of any form of power trip, because IME, every person who enjoyed subtle power trips actually were put in the situation of being subtly controlled by others themselves. It sets you up for a fall, at least in all the people I've known.

But that is my experience. I cannot say that you have had similar experiences to me, to confirm that. That is something that you will have to confirm for yourself.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 137
Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/16/2008 8:06:46 PM
Okay, I have to admit that I've been reluctant to comment on this thread because, quite frankly, I'm surprised it's gone on for so long. After all, it should be apparent, shouldn't it?

So here we go: Porn is bad for children because IT'S BAD FOR CHILDREN! Think about it. They don't get it. To children, with all the shrieking and yelling and ooo-ing and aahh-ing, it doesn't look fun at all. Children are not sexual beings in the same way adults are sexual beings. Adults know what sex is and, for the most part, deal with it in an adult sense. Children just know some things feel good and some don't. Which can create some embarrasing moments when guests are over or at Kindergarten story circle but grownups need to deal with that.

It's about context. And consequences. Most mature - emphasis on mature - adults get that. Howver, all the sophistries and clever arguments grownups might use to justify - "well, it's better to see consenting adults making love instead of killing each other" - don't hold water. Children shouldn't be exposed to porn the same way they shouldn't be exposed to extreme violence because they don't get consequences.

Now that's not to say don't be honest with kids about either sex or violence. In fact, I would encourage people to do exactly that - but it has to be age appropriate. I'm sorry, but Debbie Does Dallas just is not a good educational film for kids.
 Jakkichan
Joined: 8/29/2008
Msg: 138
Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/16/2008 8:57:19 PM
Seriously people, are we actually debating this? Children seeing naked images, not bad. At any age. Of course at various ages, there are levels of appropriateness to nakedness. At various ages, the acts in porn can appear scary or violent or confusing to children. At other ages, it doesnt, and depending on that age and the CONTENT of the porn, which is very varied...determines how it can impact a child. Of course, condoning the likely fascination with porn that could develop with older children would be unhealthy for their development, because why wouldn't they, with all their hormones, become too interested in watching. Seriously people....is this really something we have to debate? It's not horrible for a child of an older age to witness if they can understand it, but not something they should view regulary because of their limited intellectual development and maturity. It's all about the specific details, age, and the way the adults involved handle the situation. Nuf said.
 Ameerra
Joined: 6/27/2008
Msg: 139
Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/16/2008 10:54:00 PM

So here we go: Porn is bad for children because IT'S BAD FOR CHILDREN!


Sometimes the simplest answer is the best.
 trevilady
Joined: 8/8/2008
Msg: 140
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History
Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/17/2008 4:02:38 AM
well said, hear hear, xx
 Bright1Raziel
Joined: 8/20/2005
Msg: 141
Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/17/2008 5:24:41 AM
scorpiomover

So yes, I do think pornography is about a sense of control for the man who watches it.


Point of semantics here, but most women have also ussed pornography and a significant number use pornography on a regular basis.

Pornography is not a purelly male thing. yes it is predominantly male orientated, but there is a significantly high proportion of women who use pornography that they must not be discounted.


As a result, it is a power trip. A subtle power trip, as most power trips are. But a power trip, nevertheless.


I think you are making the mistake of lumping all pornography together in this instance.

The vast majority of pornography is soft porn. It is the stuff on our TV's after 9pm, in Lads magazines and Sertain tabloids, and even on some billboard addverts. Most soft core pornography involves only one person in the imagery and wether one or two peple, they are possed naturally and in a happy and relaxed manor.

There is even a signifacnt amount of the hardcore porn industry that dose not involve men in any way. The second highest selling genrea of hardcore pornography is Lesbian porn, and the 8th highest is female masterbation. Men do not view these because they are picturing themselves in the role of the person in the pornography, but because they are picturing themsleves having sex with the person they are atracted to in the pornography. It is a subtle diffrence but it is important.


If you do not have that nature to identify with characters and things that you watch, I can understand your surprise at this concept.


As a mater of fact, I can not empathise with anything at all. I have Psychophic traits and am Autistic. fortunatelly, I have enough intellegence to be able to work out emotional states and to create a mental image of how others would feel in a given situation, but only if I take time to do so.

It has many drawbacks, for example I can not Empathise with anyone when they are suffering. But it also has its addvantages, for example I am able to look at things dispasionatelly and work out how situations affect behaviours without becoming biased by my personal feelings.

stargazer1000

To children, with all the shrieking and yelling and ooo-ing and aahh-ing, it doesn't look fun at all.


I think you are making a mistake here of generalising too much. with this subject, it is very important that we try not to generalise, even if it dose make the answers hugelly complex.

Children, refers to anyone who is not an adult, anyone who has not reached the age of majority yet. So in britain it is anyone under the age of 18! I do not know any 17 year olds (without mental health issues anyway) that would be scared by pornography.

I am certain a lot of children of varying ages would be scared of it, but I think most young children would just be curious and most older children would be intrested in it.


It's about context. And consequences.


This I agrea with.
In my view this means that you have to explain things to a child at the right stages in thier devolpoment and try to rush them or stifle them. I feel though, that most people unintentionally stifle thier children.


Children shouldn't be exposed to porn... because they don't get consequences.


This is completely wrong. Children learn about consequences before they even devolp therory of mind (the ability to emaphise). It is easy to explain to a three year old not to pull on the iron because it will fall on them, or not to play with the cooker because it will burn them. Children very much understand consequences, it is just that the younger a child is, the less they care about the consequences of any particular action.

jakkichan

Of course at various ages, there are levels of appropriateness to nakedness. .... It's all about the specific details, age, and the way the adults involved handle the situation.


Onr of the best post I have read on the subject. You have summed up what I have been saying very well.
 kismetCrois
Joined: 4/6/2008
Msg: 142
Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/17/2008 8:45:48 AM
As I a mom I do monitor the amount of violence my children see. And while I am open about affection with them and they know about 'sex' in an age appropriate way they don't need to know about porn. Porn is something very different then sex between to mature loving people, it's like comparing sex with prostitution. I don't want my sons to think that it is normal for people to have sex or expose their bodies on television, the internet or in books. In their time they will see all those things, but while they are still young and impressionable I don't want them thinking porn is 'normal'. As a women I also think that porn is degrading to us, that women on their is someones daughter, and maybe someones mother... Would you want someone looking at your daughter that way, or your mother? I want my sons to grow up thinking women are beautiful and intelligent not hot and good only for sex.

So yes I do limit the violence my children see, and I wouldn't object to my sons seeing 2 married mature adults having sex. What I don't want them to see is some 'broad getting banged over the tailgate of some guys pick up truck'... These are two very different things...
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 143
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History
Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/17/2008 9:50:31 AM
RE msg 192 by Bright1Raziel:
Point of semantics here, but most women have also ussed pornography and a significant number use pornography on a regular basis.
I am aware of that some women have used pornography, and a smaller proportion of them use it on a regular basis. However, the women I know, have displayed no restriction in being completely graphic in front of me. Most have mentioned the used of BOBs, including some of the older generation (70+), loads have mentioned they've had one-night-stands, several have said they used men for sex, and a good few have said they've had orgies. Very few women ever told me how many men they had sex with, but made it clear that the number shouldn't matter to them or anyone else, and the few who did, listed numbers well over the hundred mark, well before they hit 30. Very, very few have ever mentioned they ever watched porn, and a high amount have made it clear that they regarded porn as being distasteful, of any kind. I find it very hard to believe that so many women would be so graphic about so much, and yet feel uncomfortable about discussing porn, especially when the issue that seems most sensitive for women is NOT if a woman has watched porn, but if she has had a lot of partners, and the ones who did tell me were comfortable enough to tell me that they had very high numbers, and the rest were happy to let me think the same of them.

If you have different experiences, I can understand that. You are a young man, much younger than me, and women your age appear to be far more sexually motivated than women my age, at least in terms of things like porn, and other things that have become more available due to changing legislation in the years just preceding your entry into adulthood. Also, it might be that you mix with an entirely different group of women than I do.

All I can tell you, is that most women I know have a voracious sexual appetite, are quite outspoken about the subject, and do what they want, for the most part, sexually speaking, yet porn just seems to be almost off the radar. Maybe it only is popular with women with a LOW libido?

It is true that I have discussed only the male angle here. There is a female angle too. Most women who have mentioned female fantasies involved situations where they were in control of the men. There is definitely a presence of female libido, that enjoys the sense of control as much as men. I believe even more than men. However, if we observe the patterns of change and dominance, we find that very often, we can use history to track development that leads to dominance. At the moment, the dominant form of pornography seems to be geared to men. If that changes, and most pornography is not bought by men, or read/watched by men, but by women, then that might change the structure. But right now, from what I can see, that hasn't happened in significant rates compared to men.


As a result, it is a power trip. A subtle power trip, as most power trips are. But a power trip, nevertheless.
I think you are making the mistake of lumping all pornography together in this instance.
I can understand that. After all, anyone who says "guns are dangerous" could be making the mistake of putting all guns together, like putting a Colt .45 with an AK-47. But the principle that "guns are dangerous" is not debating WHICH types of guns operate in a more dangerous manner. That principle discusses only those operational properties that apply to 99% of all makes and models of guns, and only excluding things like toy guns.

In the same way, I was not discussing if EXTREME porn is dangerous. I would have made that clear if I was. I was just trying to discuss the things that would apply to all porn, to keep the points on a simpler level.

The vast majority of pornography is soft porn. It is the stuff on our TV's after 9pm, in Lads magazines and Sertain tabloids, and even on some billboard addverts.
Yes. It's difficult to avoid, as I like TV. However, I try to avoid discussions about soft porn IRL, as when I have been around men who were discussing the women who appear in it, you would honestly think they were discussing the most hardcore porn imaginable. It is far worse when I am NOT involved in the discussion and I just happen to be around the corner.

Most soft core pornography involves only one person in the imagery and wether one or two peple, they are possed naturally and in a happy and relaxed manor.
Sorry, but I haven't seen this type of porn. I've never seen happy and relaxed porn. The characters in it usually are tearing their clothes off, and going at it like they are food and they are wolves who haven't eaten for several days. I suggest that you give me some examples, because what I've seen that is classified as soft porn, even stuff on regular TV after 9pm doesn't come close to what you are describing.

There is even a signifacnt amount of the hardcore porn industry that dose not involve men in any way. The second highest selling genrea of hardcore pornography is Lesbian porn, and the 8th highest is female masterbation.
I'm quite aware of this. AFAIK, men love watching this type of porn.

Men do not view these because they are picturing themselves in the role of the person in the pornography, but because they are picturing themsleves having sex with the person they are atracted to in the pornography. It is a subtle diffrence but it is important.
Yes. I quite agree. The men who watch lesbian scenes imagine that they could be walking in on them, and joining in, often because so much porn in the last 30 years has depicted men doing just that, to one women, or even 2, such as The Pizza Guy, The Plumber, The Delivery Guy, or many others. One fantasy of guys is to come home, find their girlfriend in bed with another really good-looking woman, get angry at her, then they offer him to join in, and he has sex with both of them. Many men don't consider their girlfriend having sex with another woman as cheating any more. So it is quite an attractive fantasy, as it is a threesome with all the benefits of a surprise that you really want.

If you do not have that nature to identify with characters and things that you watch, I can understand your surprise at this concept.
As a mater of fact, I can not empathise with anything at all. I have Psychophic traits and am Autistic. fortunatelly, I have enough intellegence to be able to work out emotional states and to create a mental image of how others would feel in a given situation, but only if I take time to do so.Well, I'm not quite there. I was tested at age 9 for Autism but just about passed the bar. I would describe myself as a High Functioning Autistic or an Aspie, although I have not had an official medical diagnosis, as I have had almost all the classic traits, ever since I was a child, and everyone has seen me that way since I was born. I just used to talk to lots of people older than me. So I was talking to men of 17 when I was 10, and women twice my age from 18+, and then women much younger from about 27+ as well. For some reason, I found women much easier to talk to than men, and many women seemed to be so comfortable with my presence that they had no compunctions about telling me their most intimate details. I guess it is because I just adopted the habit of saying "Oh..OK" whenever anyone told me anything. So I just accepted whatever personal anecdoctes I heard and never argued with it until I was much older. I guess that made it easier for people to talk to me. I don't know. I just know that people told me a lot of things I didn't need to hear, frankly.

It has many drawbacks, for example I can not Empathise with anyone when they are suffering. But it also has its addvantages, for example I am able to look at things dispasionatelly and work out how situations affect behaviours without becoming biased by my personal feelings.
I also have disassociation. I feel things, but only hours, days, weeks, or even months or years after the event. It is a lot better now. But I used to feel emotions a long time after I ought to have done. It was like my feelings and thoughts were running 2 hours behind everyone else. So although I can empathise, it is difficult to empathise while I am hearing the situation.

jakkichan
Of course at various ages, there are levels of appropriateness to nakedness. .... It's all about the specific details, age, and the way the adults involved handle the situation.
Onr of the best post I have read on the subject. You have summed up what I have been saying very well.
I totally agree with jakkichan's post in msg 189. So I think we're in agreement, after all. : applause:

But I think that porn isn't handled in quite the same way as dancers in top-class strip clubs. There, the men seem to be kept in control, the women seem to get respect, and I've never heard any layperson or scientist suggest that strip clubs have a very damaging influence, except someone who just goes to strip clubs all the time, and never does much else. But porn doesn't yet seem to have gone that way. I just think that the way it has been handled in the last 40 years, is appalling, because it has been commercialised and driven by the same forces of free market capitalism which caused the invasions of Africa, the slavery of Africans, and very high numbers of the women slaves being raped by their white male owners. So I'd like to see it brought into line, by legislation. After all, it took about 800 years to get a halfway-decent justice system in the UK. Why would we expect that we can don't need to put a lot of effort into properly legislating porn to avoid its abuses?
 FriendlyTeddyBear
Joined: 8/15/2008
Msg: 144
Why is porn bad for children?
Posted: 9/18/2008 9:40:26 AM
Porn and children should never be in the same sentence!
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