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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/14/2008 8:16:40 PM | ^^^^^^^^^^^I told my ex' that I think it would be best for our oldest to live with me. After balking and flip-flopping for a couple of months she finally agreed. We made no amendments to our divorce decree.
My ex' and I don't get along at all. I avoid all unecessary contact with her. But when it comes to our kids we've always been able to come to compromises on the really important decisions. I don't allow any disagreements about our children to desinigrate into emotional/personal battles or name-calling. I keep the conversations on point. I also don't make threats, I make statements of fact and intention. My ex' knows I don't bullsh!t when it comes to the kids. | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/14/2008 10:27:22 PM | I remember overhearing a couple of mothers at my daughters school, chatting and one made the comment that her ex was late in the payment, and it pissed her off coz she and her new boyfriend was depending on that money to go on holiday...Obviousely, the real daddy would have looked after the baby, whilst paying for mummy and new boyfriends holiday...
Not every single mom is a skank looking for some sap to suck dry. There is always two sides to a situation, Jump. If we turn the scrutiny on to the absent dad, the question begged is why is he late with his payments? How can you assume he cares more about the kids than the mother when he isn't holding up his end of the arrangement? You should not be so quick to condemn without knowing more information - maybe this woman and her boyfriend put all their income into the day to day living expenses of the children and were counting on his contribution for a holiday for the whole family - how do you know the children were not included in this vacation? Furthermore, even if it was a vacation away from the kids, why do you begrudge her that break? We are all human and everyone needs a little down time.
Gossip is gossip, jump - plain and simple - and your story is rank with it. This is not firsthand experience, this is just a fragment of a conversation that you overheard with no reference to the exact situation. Plus it does nothing to further the conversation of this thread except to divide men and women and cause further mistrust.
I have cared for my daughter from age 3 to age 12 - I have never denied her dad access - I have encouraged it and have gone way out of my way to make sure she gets quality time with her dad. As for support, it is slim to non-existent. He can barely take care of himself. All my money goes to the daily expenses that comes with having someone dependent on you. If and when he can send a little money my way, it usually goes towards one of my wish list items - maybe a haircut for my daughter or some new shoes or even a movie for the two of us. Am I a skank because I use his money to pay for my movie ticket as well as a movie ticket for my daughter? I don't think so. I work two jobs and manage to be here for my daughter when she gets home from school. If a windfall comes my way, and we can use it for a little fun, I'll do it because it isn't all chuckles and grins when every single penny you make is gone by the time you get paid.
If you are going to eavesdrop on private conversations, you should at least consider all sides of the situation and not just assume we single moms just want to have our cake and eat it too. | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/15/2008 1:51:40 AM | Neaptide
You assumptions did occurr to me...I only presented the stuation as I witnessed it....With my own assumptions based on experience from witnessing third parties that I know...Along with everything you postulated (and I agree with) consider this, perhaps the court put too much pressuer on the guys finances and he was simply unable to pay, bills, rent, unexpected unemployment etc etc etc...
To say I won't get it, is antagonistic and no real basis for argument or rather "disagreeing discussion"...
For those who haven't read my profile, "there ye go", for those who have, I'll expand...
When our baby arrived, my wife went out to work, I stayed in and looked after house and baby...Nappies changed, baby fed, washing, housework, dishes the lot..when she came home from work, dinner on the table...Some cynic will no doubt say "oh bravo, good for you, bet it's a lie" or "you just done it to prove a point" or wotever...
The point is, I was just being me, the situation demanded that one partner went to work and provided finacially, the other provided domestically...It was my wifes choice to go to work, coz as she said at the time"I don't want to stay indoors all day"...
Fast forward to the situation realitively now...It made sense for me to take main custody of our daughter as the situation was my (then separated with) wife started her nursing course and worked all weird and wonderfull shifts patterns, so it made sense (especially so as I was house husband anyway)...The situation now?...The NHS in their wisdom threw out all the trainee nurses from the nurses dorm to make way for cheap accomodation for overseas doctors (yeah, like they need cheap accomodation on £100,000 a year!!)...the choices where a bedsit and on her meagre grant, cheap ...Result, a mouse infested shitehole and when it rained the cieling came down on her bed...so as a temp measure, I insisted she move in here in the spare room...the temp though has dragged on... 
The money...We both have always contributed what we could, no demands on either part, and it works well...The thing is, our child comes first, and when it's needed, we work as partners in her welfare...
When I first left, I had to sign on the dole (unemployment) and they demanded I give my wifes details to the CSA..they never contacted her....The cynic in me (based on what I have seen from aquaintances experiences, one of which I have already put forth) assumed this was because she was female, and if the situation was single mother (as opposed to single father) the father would indeed be chased for finances...However, I would have to assume, it's not always that cut and dry...
I am sorry you feel the way you do, maybe I should have put inverted commas in my final statement, maybe not, but that statement is a reflection of how males feel (again, even that is not always cut and dry) and the sooner both parties realise it, start looking in the mirror and thinking of their child, the better ...
Gawd..that was meant to be short.... | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/15/2008 7:03:04 AM |
Gossip is gossip, jump - plain and simple - and your story is rank with it.
Jump, I didn't mean your personal story - I meant this story about the two women.
To say I won't get it, is antagonistic and no real basis for argument or rather "disagreeing discussion"...
I agree 100% - I didn't say that.
. . . that statement is a reflection of how males feel (again, even that is not always cut and dry)
I understand - I can see how it would appear that the legal system is unfair but it isn't like it is some evil, male-hating machine - it is just inefficient and overworked. I just dislike it when someone fans the flame of indigation, especially when it is a PERCEIVED injustice. I am here to tell you, the unfairness cuts both ways regardless of sex - again, it is just a big inefficient system - that is why I have foregone the legal system and worked hard to be a co-parent with my ex on our own terms.
the sooner both parties realise it, start looking in the mirror and thinking of their child, the better. - that's music to my ears! Kids FIRST!
Anyway, one last thing I'd like to throw out there about ex's and the frustation they can cause is that if you have an unreasonable expectation that your ex is going to behave in a way that is not within their abilities to behave, you are going to be frustrated, the kids are going to be stressed and you are setting your ex up for failure.
In my particular case, men and women alike could understand why I would be frustrated that he cannot "act his age of 46 years, keep a job and contribute more financially." However, the actual facts show that his emotional age is about 20 - once i realize that I am dealing with someone who is 20 on the inside, I can work with him much better. For example, he may not be able to send money my way, but when my daughter is with him, he does feed and provide for her and even occassionaly buy her clothes and books - that's support - it's not necessarily how I would PREFER to get it, but it is support. Sometimes it is just how you look at the situation that can make the difference. | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/15/2008 7:06:29 AM | QUOTE 'Ruthie'----"For some reason the court system believes that the man is the money maker and the mother is the nurture . The court system seems to me a little sexist . "
I agree so much...and it will continue to be so until enough guys stand up to be counted! Fight if you really want your babies ( and fuss at your peers who whine but really do NOT want to have their babies).
LOL....What is wrong with you all, that is so bullshit. Tell me the last time anybody saw a woman pay her 5000 up front to fight for the kids??? You don't or rarely do thus family services takes up for her while the breadwinner always pays!
It's to make sure these young dumb daisy dukes don't get knocked up by some bad boy then bytch cause he wants nothing to do with them or can't pay......she goes on welfare and/or lives with parents, grandparents, aunts, etc. | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/15/2008 10:10:36 AM |
When our baby arrived, my wife went out to work, I stayed in and looked after house and baby...Nappies changed, baby fed, washing, housework, dishes the lot..when she came home from work, dinner on the table...Some cynic will no doubt say "oh bravo, good for you, bet it's a lie" or "you just done it to prove a point" or wotever...
I don't doubt you one bit, Jump. Nurturing does NOT have to be the mom's role only. No doubt, Jump, you have a strong bond with your daughter and all those stinky diapers were worth it in the long run. My ex stayed home with our daughter when she was 1 and 2 years old. They have such a strong bond, even though he and I are no longer together, and I believe it is because of that one-on-one time they spent together. In my perfect world, parents could take turns being the nurturer and the provider. | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/16/2008 10:12:14 AM | Why do men only get visitation?
Because our court system still holds onto the notion that the person who spends the most time with the children and doing work around the house is the one who should have custody. This unfortunately diminisses the other parents role in the marriage to that of essentially a wallet.
The courts need to recognize that just because one of the parents spent more time at work than the other does not mean that they are any less of a parent. | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/16/2008 10:17:22 AM | | Agreed, but factors such as who remained at the marital home, schools and proximity to family play into decisions as well. If the man leaves the home, courts are usually loathe to disrupt the current lives of the kids any more then they already are and want to keep as much "normalcy" as possible. Thus more custody given to that person. I don't believe the courts are saying you are less of a parent, just that the kids are less disrupted by keeping to their status quo as much as possible. | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/16/2008 10:43:59 AM | | Agreed....and that stupid rationale by the court system is what destroys most families...without acknowledging the change "just stay in the house and maybe Dad will come back"..it's difficult to accept what has happened for everyone involved, kids and the parents and makes moving on nearly impossible. | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/16/2008 10:59:08 AM | | I don't think by allowing children to stay in the home they have been growing up in and attending the same school with their same friends is saying they are not acknowledging the change or allowing them to think "maybe dad will come back" by doing so LOL Nor do I believe it "destroys" families. This really is a selfish way of looking at a decision, thinking by the kids having some of their pre-divorce life they are sitting around hoping "well I still live in my home so maybe dad will come back". . I can't imagine kids being ripped away from their school and friends and activities and home that this would be BETTER for them to adjust? Sometimes people's personal situation clouds their judgment on what really is best for the kids whole well-being in the long-term, and when you think having the kids stay in their home and attend the same school with their friends and maintain their schedule is a "stupid rationale", I think it has become less about them and more about you, in what already is a difficult situation. Kids are pretty smart - I think they'd acknowledge the change seeing as the other parent no longer lives there and they are subjected to court and the inherent change in their day to day life. | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/16/2008 11:06:10 AM | | Try living the life THEN come and tell me all about it...instead of sharing dispassionate, bulls*hit "well..this is how it OUGHTTA be " nonsense! | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/16/2008 11:23:38 AM | | Its funny... in order to get the same rights to our children as women are granted AUTOMATICALLY, we have to hire high-priced attorneys and HOPE that the court system sees it our way... | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/16/2008 11:36:23 AM |
I remember overhearing a couple of mothers at my daughters school, chatting and one made the comment that her ex was late in the payment, and it pissed her off coz she and her new boyfriend was depending on that money to go on holiday...Obviousely, the real daddy would have looked after the baby, whilst paying for mummy and new boyfriends holiday...
There are too many "what-if's" to this story to make any sort of assumption. I've had something similar happen to me.
A friend of his came up and told me off for wanting to go use his friend's child support to go partying. I had no idea what he was talking about at first until he got into the details. When my children were younger, I agreed to child support from my ex to the tune of $50 a month because he told me he was going through a hard time and his "lawyer" had told him that was the amount he was supposed to pay. He swore up and down that he would pay and start taking his children for overnights. The time for the first payment and the overnight was the next weekend... and friends I hadn't seen in years would be in town.I'd had 24/7 custody of my children for over a year at that point. I got excited at the chance to get a night out, to see my friends,play pool etc.
The problem was, I was completely broke from buying groceries, getting the girls' eyes tested, bringing them to dentist appointments and buying them new coats and shoes. I was going to use that 50 dollars for my night out. When I called to ask him what time he was coming (so that I could let my friends know what time to pick me up) I made the mistake of telling him why. He yelled at me on the phone and said that he wasn't going to babysit the girls so that I could whore around, or give me his money so that I could go out and "party it away"
He had painted me as a horrible person who cared more about getting revenge on him by forcing him to pay money he couldn't "afford" on child support.. just to piss it away on booze. Just like you've painted this woman out to be a horrible, money-grubbing **** just out for a free ride. Don't always assume the worst about someone without all the facts. | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/16/2008 11:36:34 AM | | I do in fact feel sorry for you fellows that have to leave the home and then fight for your rights to see your children. I know that I am damned thankful that in my situation, custody was never an issue. It was always a given that they were mine to care for and support to the full degree. Hell, he doesn't really even exercise any of his custody rights! However, I have seen a rise in the amount of men who do in fact have full custody of the kids so it would be my guess that things are changing, ever so slowly? I know it doesnt help those who are going through it now, but maybe in the future? I have always admired couples who did "shared custody" and did it in a decent manner so as to benefit the children. I think that takes a hellua lot of maturity and love for your children to do so | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/16/2008 11:47:54 AM | | I feel sorry for the children of half mature kids that learned all their morals thru their stereos...or MP3 players......you all have them, the child support goes to pay for them. Well, you listened to Axl Rose and Trent Reznor....you ignored your folks advice, h*ell you were ALL too smart to listen to those AS*SHOLES!! And you took the risks...you have diseases now to show for it, and babies....babies raising babies! Now, you snivel on the free dating site forums about no beer money to meet another boy/girl honey at the bar....men all suck....and women all are grasping money grubbing witches.......well......now you are living the life that "Fvcking You Like An Animal " got ya................most of you are disgusting, all about me jagoffs.......Allow me to be the first to say it.....................Welcome To The Jungle Babies | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/16/2008 12:02:26 PM | | Blame the ex, blame the courts, blame the judge, blame the system, now blame lyrics to 80s songs? Blame yourself. I know no one in my extensive network who learned their morals though Axl Rose LMAO Nor do I know any parent receiving support who said "damn now I can get me this cool MP3 player instead of feeding or clothing my kid". Sometimes things become so much clearer as to why one person has custody and why another doesn't when you read these forums... I'm just shaking my head at the anger and extreme bitterness...I feel sorry for kids who are subjected to this kind of rage, disillusionment and complete lack of insight... | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/16/2008 12:05:46 PM | | Save it for somewhere closer to home Kiddo....My kids are well taken care of....their father has a job | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/16/2008 12:14:45 PM | "Agreed, but factors such as who remained at the marital home, schools and proximity to family play into decisions as well. If the man leaves the home, courts are usually loathe to disrupt the current lives of the kids any more then they already are and want to keep as much "normalcy" as possible"
This is why when it comes to who should have custody and who stays in the marital home it should not be based on who was around the children more because there is an inherent belief within our court system that it is the mother. Even if it was the mother that does not mean that she would be the better custodial parent.
The one piece of advice though that I have given to friends whose wives have said they want a divorce is, don't leave the house. If you feel that you would be best for the kids, then she can leave. It sounds harsh but the reality is once you leave then your chances of having custody and primary residence are diminished significantly. | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/16/2008 12:20:20 PM | First, don't attempt to demean me by calling me "kiddo". Second, you want a cookie for having a job? I do to AND I support my child 100%. Third, I don't have to save it for anywhere, I can post my opinion here if I want to, at any time. Intimidation obviously is not your strong suit, so don't try it with me. That's great your kids are being taken care of - you said your ex has full custody. To the OP, single fathers have a lot of the same issues as single mothers. More single fathers though than mothers do not take any responsibility for the child, which is why you hear more of "deadbeat dads". It's more common. Not more right or wrong, just more common. Women have changed the world which we live a lot on the past 40 years - from entering the workforce, being able to have roles in policy-making and government and Fortune 500 corporations. Courts, gender roles etc have to change with these times, and it takes time. This was not an issue 30 years ago because women just stayed home, did not work, and divorce was not a common practice. Now women can be the main breadwinners and not stay in an unfulfilling or abusive marriage, and contribute in ways they were not able to previous. Men are trying to keep up, and laws are slower than that. It's evolving. It takes time.
Edit to soccer - you posted as I was writing. I get your point now, I didn't realize you were saying the person who spent the most time with the child while in the home may have a better chance of full custody as a result, and the working parent may actually be penalized as a result. Good point I had not considered. | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/16/2008 12:22:39 PM | Its funny... in order to get the same rights to our children as women are granted AUTOMATICALLY, we have to hire high-priced attorneys and HOPE that the court system sees it our way...~ justjohn
Well folks I am about to find out just how fair our courts have become.
Due to a crappy job market and having to choose homelessness or child support I am now about to embark on that journey. Without representation. My first court appearance will be that of obtaining a refraining order to stop the FRO from suspending my drivers licence for failure to pay.
The logic baffles me that they would see this as a justifyable means to force payment when it if fact will automatically hinder my ability to earn. If I lose my licence I will have to quit my job because it is situated where there is no transit.
I am working there through a temp agency and could have been offered a fulltime spot with a decent chance to make a higher wage plus continue my education in this new field but a lack of a licence would kill that opportunity.
This will be followed by a motion to change a final order to alter the rate that I pay that has been inflated since day one of my divorce in that I have been ordered to pay a much higher rate plus been subjected to an automatic retro situation that put me in arrears of close to four thousand dollars.
Sure I would have liked to hire a lawyer just to give me the best possible chance of success but after numerous calls I found out that legal aid does not cover this and the cheapest lawyer demanded a 2000 retainer and 195 an hour.
I also looked into the paralegal aspect and found a organization which called itself divorced dads. By the name one would assume that they might be able to assist me for a reasonable fee but was told that the package they offered was a flat 4000 dollars. He said that this was cheap and it would fully prepare me for court and I would still have to represent myself. When I balked at the price he stated that he would accept 1000 down and post dated cheques for the rest claiming that if I wanted good results that a lawyers total fee could on average be between 20000 and 30000 dollars.
If I had that kind of money I wouldn't be in need of any services and it would mean I was actually earning a decent paycheque of which I would gladly use to pay my support and have some semblance of a normal life.
I was not in attendance at my divorce court date and even though my ex had the information on her tax forms which she could have shared with the court, her lawyer saw no reason to share it and this is how I am in this state.
I was granted visitation but at her request that means I am allowed to take my son for a limited time and only within a few blocks of her household which cuts out many types of outings and does not allow for me to have him visit with my side of the family.
He just turned five this past may and as of now has only met three members of my family which is (just immediate family) about 63 based on last years christmas attendance. One of the three people he met was my Mom who passed away mere weeks after they met.
Nothing would make me happier than having attend our family christmas parties now that my nieces and nephews all have young children and it always agonizing when I see the little ones being called up to sit on Santa's knee (usually one of my older brothers) and to not let him experience the annual family vacation at the cottage where he could see where I came from and how I was raised in a very family oriented environment.
There are many eyes to watch over the little ones and safety of them is everyones priority.
So I will try to keep you up to date and we will see.
I will admit that I have not seen my son in over two years because of feeling that I will not be able to hide my frustration of this situation from him and I know that he is being well cared for. I know this because that is why I chose this woman in the first place knowing that our child would have a great mom and I felt it best that because I was unable to maintain a regular schedule that it would be more detrimental to him if I was forced to break promises I may not be able to keep.
Wish me luck and we will see just how fair things really are. | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/16/2008 12:53:26 PM | And you took the risks...you have diseases now to show for it, and babies....babies raising babies! Now, you snivel on the free dating site forums about no beer money to meet another boy/girl honey at the bar....men all suck....and women all are grasping money grubbing witches.......well......now you are living the life that "Fvcking You Like An Animal " got ya................most of you are disgusting, all about me jagoffs.......Allow me to be the first to say it.....................Welcome To The Jungle Babies
Wow, nice mouth there - you kiss your momma with that thing?
I think this thread is unraveling and I'm worried about the mental health of some of you here. The court system is not a place to resolve MORAL issues - those of you that are angry, whatever led you to be in the angry place you are at right now, please recognize the role YOU played in the situation and that YOU are responsible for howYOU perceive this world. You can be angry or you can be productive, but it is very hard to do both.
The family court system is there to provide for the children - it isn't about fair, it never was - an attorney once told me a good compromise is when both sides are unhappy.
I know that sounds glib when someone is about to lose his driver's license which I agree is SO counterproductive to remedy the situation. I haven't heard of that before so I'm at a loss for words at the moment. In that situation, the poster should be commended for the effort he has put into finding legal asistance. I have my fingers crossed that you will be able to work something out. You can represent yourself, it's tricky and messy, but not impossible. Most excellent good luck to you! Please let us know what comes of your court date. | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/16/2008 1:11:48 PM | Depending on where you live.... If there are no court orders in place then you can leave with YOUR child, unless you have legally adopted the other child you can NOT leave with that child.
I am a mother who gave custody to my ex because he had a better job and somewhere to live when my mom kicked us out. I now have visitation(court ordered) yet I haven't seen my kids for over a year now and have complained to the courts with no results. The courts look down on my because I gave him custody and yet it was what I felt was better for my children at the time. It is hard for women also. | |
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| Why do men only get visitation???
Posted: 8/16/2008 1:20:22 PM |
I feel sorry for the children of half mature kids that learned all their morals thru their stereos...or MP3 players......you all have them, the child support goes to pay for them.
Of course it does... but in my case, I'm paying his share of the child expenses as well as mine and would consider it reimbursement. If I pay out 200 dollars for medical expenses (to be share between their father and I) from my bank account on Tuesday for the kids and then take 100 dollars out of the child support to spend on something for me when it comes on Friday, then is anyone going to really argue that the money didn't go towards them?
Well, you listened to Axl Rose and Trent Reznor....you ignored your folks advice, h*ell you were ALL too smart to listen to those AS*SHOLES!!
I listened to The Doors, the Eagles and CCR..... Omg... John Fogerty turned me into a single mother! I should have stuck to polka!
And you took the risks...you have diseases now to show for it, and babies....babies raising babies!
No diseases, got pregnant in my third year of university, and was with a church-going young man who devoted himself to his mother and disabled sister.
Now, you snivel on the free dating site forums about no beer money to meet another boy/girl honey at the bar
In my case, I hadn't been out anywhere with my children in over a year, these were family friends who had come home from another country, and are definitely not threesome material... but hey, who am I to get in the way of a good disjointed rant against the evils of 80's rock music! | |
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