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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 8:30:19 AM | | Steve, the problem is that Jesus didn't fulfill the Messianic prophecies. For centuries Christians have been pulling verses out of context and saying that they're Messianic prophecies that he's fulfilled. | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 8:42:19 AM | out of context according to who?
I posted some of the 60 prophecies and 270 ramifications fulfilled by Jesus. I'm still waiting for your answer that these are not valid, with your sources.
If you claim there are not prophecies in the Old Testament, and Jesus did not fulfill them, then source your claim please. | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 11:19:53 AM | I say that JC was a Scholar. He would have known all the prophecies. He would have been very aware of what he was doing. He wanted to start a revolt, a change in Gov't & Church.
He would have known that he needed the power of God to do so and set out to make himself appear to be just that so as to sway the people.
Imagine a Grown Man riding a Donkey. It must have been very uncomfortable and awkward, not to mention extremely humorist. Why would he have done it unless he wanted to make a statement, unless he wanted to be seen as God's Messenger. | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 8:23:36 PM | I didn't see a list of 60 prophecies, but I could have easily missed them. I know you mentioned the virgin birth so let's take a look. This is Isaiah 7:14. The first thing to note is that Matthew mentions this prophecy but mistranslates it. According to Isaiah the mother will call her child Immanuel. Matthew changes this slightly to say "they" will call him Immanuel. That's a very important distinction. Anyway, Jesus immediately fails this prophecy since Mary didn't call her son Immanuel. Oddly enough she called him Jesus (or more correctly, Yeshua). Also to be noted is that the word translated as virgin is almah. Almah actually means young woman. It says nothing about whether the young woman is a virgin or not. The Jews had a different word for a woman who is definitely a virgin. So there is no virgin birth prophecy to begin with.
Now lets look at the context, by which I mean the verses around this passage. Who was Isaiah speaking to when he made this prophecy? He was speaking to King Ahaz (Isa. 7:3, 10). King Ahaz ruled from 761 to 746 BC. Why did Isaiah make this prophecy? At the time, Judah was being harrassed by Israel and Syria. God wanted Ahaz to know his kingdom would be safe (Isa. 7:7). During the reign of Ahaz there was marked idolatry in Judah so God wanted to get the people of Judah back on track. He asked Ahaz to choose a sign so that he would know that God can be trusted to help Judah. Ahaz refused, but God would give him a sign anyway. What was that sign? A young woman would give birth and name her child Immanuel (Isa. 7:14). That doesn't much sound like a sign. However, that's not all of the prophecy! The prophecy continues: "15. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 16. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that though abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings." Those two kings were the kings of Israel and Syria (Isa. 7:1).
It's now rather apparent that Isa. 7:14 couldn't possibly be referring to Jesus because the birth was supposed to be a sign to Ahaz who ruled 750 years before Jesus was born! How could Jesus' birth 750 years after Ahaz died be sign for him that Judah would be safe from Israel and Syria? Clearly Isa. 7:14 is not a messianic prophecy.
Obviously the author of the Book of Matthew pulled a verse out of context and invented a virgin birth in order to trick the unwary into believing that Jesus was the foretold Messiah. | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 8:45:57 PM |
Old Testament (Isaiah 40:3) - Messiah would be preceded by a messenger
Isa. 40:3 says nothing about any messenger preceeding the Messiah. The whole chapter is about how God is going to make it wonderful to live in Jerusalem. If the Messiah is connected to this at all then we have a major problem: Jesus didn't fulfill anything in that chapter. During Jesus' life Jerusalem was under the yolk of the Roman Empire. A few decades after his death the Temple was destroyed. Uprisings against the Roman Empire were crushed. If Jesus was the Messiah he failed the prophecy that said he would rule (Isa. 40:10) and that Jerusalem's warfare would be accomplished (Isa. 40:2). | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 8:48:30 PM | the messenger your looking for is......
The Holy Spirit is God's precence at work in the world. The jewish Sriptures (Old Testament) declare that the Spirit of God was at work in the creation of the world (Gen 1.2) giving life to plants, animals, and humans (Ps104.27-30).
The leaders of Israel were given power and direction by the Spirit, including Moses and the seventy-two leaders chosen to help him (Num11.24-30), Gideon (Judg 6.34) and Kings Saul and David (1Sam 10.6-13, 11.6, 16.13, 2Sam 23.1-4) Earlier prophets like Elijah and Elisha (2 Kgs 2.9-15 where the CEV translates "spirit" as "power") and later ones like Isaiah and Ezekiel (Isa 61.1, Ezek 2.2, 3.12-27) were guided by the Spirit of God and given messages for the people.
The Lord promised to give his Spirit and message to his people so that they would become eager to obey God's law and teachings (Isa 59.21, Ezk 36.24-29) The prophet Isaiah reminded the people that it was by the Spirit that God guided the History of Israel from the beginning (Isa63.10-14). If God's people disobey the Spirit they will be punised (Isa 63.10) but when they follow the Spirit, their lives and hearts will be transformed and purified (Ezk36.26,27). And ultimately, their hope for the future is that God's Spirit will renew them and their relationship with God (isa44.3-5), Ezk 11.19,20) and send them a new ruler filled with wisdom and justice (Isa 11.2-5).
For the writters of the New Testament, Jesus is seen as the one who fulfills the vision that inspired the prophets. Luke reports that an angel told Mary that the Holy Spirit would come down to her, and God's power would come over her and that her child Jesus, would be called the Holy Son of God (Luke1.35). Jesus'relationship with God is again emphasized at his baptism when "the Holy Spirit came down upon him in the form of a dove" (Luke 3.22). At the beginning of his ministry Jesus read a passage from Isaiah to people gathered on the Sabbath and declared that the Lord's Spirit had come to him and had chose him to tell the good news to the poor (Luke 4.16-19). Although Jesus' enemies accused him of having unclean spirit (Mark 3.28-30) Jesus claimed that it was by God's Spirit, not by the devil, that he was able to drive out demons (Matt 12.28) The writer of Matthew also claimed that Jesus was the "chosen servant" Isaiah said would be given the spirit of Godand bring Justice to the nations (Matt 12.15-21, Isa 42.1-4)
In John, Jesus tells his disiples he will send the Holy Spirit to help them; to teach them everything and remind them of what Jesus had already taught them; to show them what is true; and to guide them in the full truth (John 14.15-17, 25,26 15.26, 16.4-15)
After Jesus died and was raised to life he spent forty days with his apostles . Hetold they would be baptised by the Holy Spirit (Acts 1.8). Then on the day of the Pentacost, the Spirit came to the apostiles who were gathered in Jerusalem (Acts 2.1-12). Acts goes on to tell of the many ways the Holy Spirit guided and strengthened the apostiles as they took the good news about Jesus to other lands and the people. (Acts 4.8,31; 6.3-5, 8.29, 13.2-9, 20.22-18 are just some examples.)
For Paul, it is the Spirit who sets free God's new people and who changes their lives so that they can have peace and be obedient to god (Rom 8.1-17). The Spirit gives them the ability to understand God's will, to live together in love, to see what the future will bring, and to carry out the different kinds of work that need to be done in the churches (1Cor 12-14). The Spirit produces within them the love and the lifestyle God wants for his people (Rom 4.9-13, Gal 5.22,23). | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 8:55:30 PM |
Old Testament (Micah 5:2) - Messiah would be born in Bethlehem
Micah 5:2 says "But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
This doesn't help the case for Jesus being the Messiah. You see, Jesus never ruled Israel. Rather, this prophecy proves Jesus wasn't the Messiah. | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 9:01:28 PM |
In John, Jesus tells his disiples he will send the Holy Spirit to help them; to teach them everything and remind them of what Jesus had already taught them; to show them what is true; and to guide them in the full truth (John 14.15-17, 25,26 15.26, 16.4-15)
After Jesus died and was raised to life he spent forty days with his apostles . Hetold they would be baptised by the Holy Spirit (Acts 1.8).
Seems we have a problem then. I don't recall where it is exactly (I think Acts), but the Bible tells us of a theological dispute that arose between Paul and Peter, which was eventually settled in Paul's favor. How could the Holy Spirit have let this happen, since it was His job to instruct the Apostles in matters spiritual?
I suppose you could point out that people are fallible, but then how trustworthy are the Scriptures if they were written by fallible men? | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 9:39:57 PM |
Micah 5:2 says "But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
This doesn't help the case for Jesus being the Messiah. You see, Jesus never ruled Israel. Rather, this prophecy proves Jesus wasn't the Messiah.
Look down another two an read....
"Like a shepherd taking care of his sheep, this ruler will lead and care for his people by the power and glorious name of the LORD his God"
but micah was written to find out what happenes to the people of Israel when they forgot the answer to...What does God want more than anything else.
If you look at just a passage to prove or get an answer good luck! You should read the Bible from beginnig to end Min one year Then you have to make all those cross references work, and then some revalancy of the time the culture and factors.
So, I suggest you start reading it Totally and then perhaps maybe you'll come to see it in it's entirety.
This method you could be here till death proving maybe that there is something or one thing valid.
Just a thought you may want to consider.
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 10:07:49 PM |
Old Testament (Genesis 49:10) - Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah
This is a somewhat confusing verse so it's good to look at it.
"The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of people be."
The word Shiloh is a bit confusing because some might think it a name. It's actually an untranslated Hebrew word meaning "one to whom it belongs." Christians and Jews usually take this to mean the Messiah, however that's not obvious from the context.
The question is, when Jacob uttered these words did he mean Judah his son, or the tribe of Judah? If he meant Judah his son then there's no way this applies to Jesus. So let's assume he meant the tribe, which seems to have support from Gen. 49:28.
So the verse is saying that the kingship (presumably of Judah, the nation) will be from the tribe of Judah until the one to whom it belongs becomes king. This suggests that the one to whom it belongs will not be of the tribe of Judah, because of the use of the word "until." But maybe I'm just reading too much into it. If I'm right then Jesus wasn't the Messiah, since he's of the tribe of Judah. So let's assume I'm wrong and this verse does indicate that the Messiah will be from the tribe of Judah. If true then Jesus can't be the Messiah since he never ruled over Judah!
See the Messiah is the one to whom it [the sceptre of Judah] belongs. That means that the Messiah would have been the King of Judah. Jesus was never the King of Judah. In fact Jesus is disqualified from being the King of Judah. To understand why we have to look at his geneology as given in Matthew. Matt. 1:11 indicates that Jesus was a descendant of Jeconiah. Jeconiah was the king around the time the Jews were carried off to Babylon. So why does that matter? Because of Jer. 22:30.
"Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah."
So once again we have a Scripture that proves Jesus wasn't the Messiah. | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 10:18:36 PM |
I suppose you could point out that people are fallible, but then how trustworthy are the Scriptures if they were written by fallible men?
Now who do you think has the Spirit and actually listens to it. There is the only reason to be Fallible, either listen and follow or just listen and don't follow or none of the above.
This is a topic that you will never come to understand until your will is to accept Jesus and to fell and accept the Holy Spirit for this is something that cannot be explain by our means here you have to see it let it strike you in a form of words. | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 10:24:05 PM | I have read the Bible, cover to cover. That's part of why I'm no longer a Christian.  Also Micah 5 goes on to say "5. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread into our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principle men. 6. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders."
The Assyrians didn't invade Israel while Jesus was alive. Nor did Jesus, with the help of 15 men or otherwise, lay waste to Assyria with the sword.
Christians claim that Jesus was the Messiah. That means Jesus had to fulfill all the Messianic prophecies. It only takes one failure to prove that he's not the Messiah. He didn't, and couldn't have, fulfilled the prophecies in Micah 5.
I hope on Judgement Day you have a good excuse for why you followed a false prophet after the evidence was presented to you. | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 10:27:53 PM |
"Like a shepherd taking care of his sheep, this ruler will lead and care for his people by the power and glorious name of the LORD his God"
Then Jesus didn't do a very good job of caring for his people. Didn't most (all?) of the Apostles face persecution and die horrible deaths. In fact persecution of his people was rampant, often at the hands of his own people. | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 10:34:10 PM |
Isa. 40:3 says nothing about any messenger preceeding the Messiah. The whole chapter is about how God is going to make it wonderful to live in Jerusalem.
Yes, it does. This is a perfect example of how you are missing the prophecy. This is an old testament prophecy, which is verified by the book of Matthew. In fact, Matthew 3:3. says it:
Matthew 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea.
Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent,ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 3:3 For this is he that was spoken by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of the one crying in the wilderness., prepare ye the ways of the Lord, make his paths straight.
sorry count, you are flat wrong. All those statements are prophetic, and make reference to a messiah to be fulfilled. You still have to list sources, because you are completely going against biblical mainstream thinking.....
sources, sources | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 10:37:09 PM | In other words, the writer of the New testament book of Matthew, is coming out and SAYING Isiah was talking about John the Baptist as the voice in the wildnerness, preparing the way for the coming Messiah. It is no more clearer than that... it needs not interpretation, no alignment, no juxtaposition.
You claim Isiah is not making prophecy about a coming Messiah......sources count, list em. | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 10:39:16 PM | Come Judgement day for you not for I.
Jesus said that everyone will come to see him regardless of who you may think he is. You know I was decieved once think Elijah was Jesus.
nope I was wrong.
Anyway back to this Quote above.
That really does not say anything about Jesus It could have been a King God was Speaking of. Who knows? I thoght you knew? | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 10:51:43 PM |
Then Jesus didn't do a very good job of caring for his people. Didn't most (all?) of the Apostles face persecution and die horrible deaths
Your own words give strong suggestion that something miraculous happened, and this is the very heart of the matter right here.
Christians believe Jesus did the most that anyone can do for his people - he suffered the passion of the cross and took on the sins of the world, don't know how you can do more than that. Could you do it?
All of the apostles faced persecution count, and all of them except one died horrible deaths. Why? If the crucifixion did not happen, if the resurrection was a fake, if Jesus was a fake, why did they not recant what they were saying to save their lives. If they thought Jesus didn't do a good job of caring for them, they would of said so themselves.
Instead, they did just the opposite. They received the miracle of tongues at Pentecost, spread out and traveled, and were eyewitnesses to the events in the Bible. All of the apostles who died, to a man, would of had their lives spared if they recanted what they were saying.
Andrew was hung alive on a cross shaped in the letter X, where he exhorted to the entire countryside through his agony to be constant and faithful to the truth. The governing Council, seeing the masses of people gathering at his cross, sought to take him down. But Andrew would have none of it, crying out "O Jesus Christ, let not thine adversary loose him that is hung upon thine Grace."
This is written about beautifully by Flamion in Epitre Grecque
Count, not only did they die horrible and painful deaths, at times instead of recanting they insisted on it. | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 11:01:32 PM |
That really does not say anything about Jesus It could have been a King God was Speaking of. Who knows?
you mean Isiah prophecieing about John the Baptist paving the way for the Messiah. How do we know this was Jesus. Because when John the baptist baptized Jesus, Jesus told him He was the one.
Because matthew says he was the one Isiah prophecied about.
and biblical scholars all agree this the prophecy.
People have free will to choose to believe or not believe whatever they want, but when they are flat wrong about saying there are not prophecies in the Old Testament fulfilled by Christ, I have to take issue with that. that is going completely against biblical scholars, it is out there, fringe thinking. That is why I need SOURCES. State sources when making this claim, or trying to disprove a prophecy. So far, not a single source is given.....that does not suprise me. | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 11:23:31 PM |
sorry count, you are flat wrong. All those statements are prophetic, and make reference to a messiah to be fulfilled. You still have to list sources, because you are completely going against biblical mainstream thinking.....
I did list my source. The Book of Isaiah. Isaiah says nothing about the Messiah here. Isaiah says nothing about a prophet paving the way for the Messiah. And Jesus didn't do anything that Isaiah predicted in that chapter. Please provide evidence from Isaiah that he was talking about a prophet paving the way for the Messiah. Instead what we find is Matthew, as is his habit, taking a verse totally out of context in order to invent a prophecy to be fulfilled. I may be against Christian thinking on this, but Christians have a stake in promoting this pious lie. So where's the evidence from Isaiah that Matthew wasn't lying, because there's no evidence that I can find that he was telling the truth? | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 11:32:09 PM |
People have free will to choose to believe or not believe whatever they want, but when they are flat wrong about saying there are not prophecies in the Old Testament fulfilled by Christ, I have to take issue with that. that is going completely against biblical scholars, it is out there, fringe thinking. That is why I need SOURCES. State sources when making this claim, or trying to disprove a prophecy. So far, not a single source is given.....that does not suprise me.
You're confusing Christain scholars with all scholars. I'm sure Jewish scholars would totally disagree with your Christian scholars. Anyway, the only source we need is the Old Testament itself. So show me the context that tells you that Isaiah was talking about a prophet (i.e. why do you equate a voice in the wilderness with a prophet) who would pave the way for the Messiah (why do you think this chapter which talks about God doing X, Y, and Z is talking about the Messiah whom the Jews believed was a man). And also explain why Jesus failed to do anything in the chapter that was supposed to be about him. If Biblical scholars cannot do this they are no scholars. | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 11:37:57 PM |
Christians believe Jesus did the most that anyone can do for his people - he suffered the passion of the cross and took on the sins of the world, don't know how you can do more than that.
Jesus said that with God all things are possible. So if Jesus (who is God) promises to care for his people then it's a trivial matter for him to care for his people. Does he show how much he cares by letting them be tortured to death when it's in his power to prevent it (note: He wouldn't have to interfer with anybody's free will to do it)? If your child was about to be tortured and murdered and you could stop it, would you? Of course you would. You're a sane reasonable being. What does God's inaction tell you? It tells me a lot. Either God is a demented liar or He doesn't exist. | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 11:53:07 PM |
All of the apostles faced persecution count, and all of them except one died horrible deaths. Why? If the crucifixion did not happen, if the resurrection was a fake, if Jesus was a fake, why did they not recant what they were saying to save their lives. If they thought Jesus didn't do a good job of caring for them, they would of said so themselves.
Religious people do strange things sometimes. When their religious beliefs start to get crushed by the weight of evidence against them they become more religious. Just look at how Christians deal with the story of Lot. Your guy offered up his two daughters to be gang raped in order to save his own skin. That's morally reprehensible, and I think few Christians alive today would do such a thing in similar circumstances. Yet they always try to excuse his behavior, because the alternative is to admit there's something wrong with the Bible, God (who said after the fact that Lot was righteous), or both. Or look at the Heaven's Gate cult. Why would all these people commit suicide if Bo and Peep were lunatics? Why do so many Christians become even more religious after the latest date for Armageddon has pass by? | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/14/2005 11:57:10 PM |
Anyway, the only source we need is the Old Testament itself. So show me the context that tells you that Isaiah was talking about a prophet
oh, since you refuse to source your statements??? Okay...
Umm, just read Matthew 3:3 it clearly says that this is what Isaiah was talking about. Sources??????
You're kidding right? Okay, here are my sources: choose from any of them
Charles Spurgeon, Martin Luther, John Wesley, the author of the Book of Matthew.
and your sources saying Isaiah was NOT talking about a coming Messiah is.........what some fringe website or book with an anti-Christian agenda????
Please........ | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/15/2005 8:40:51 AM | the answer to...What does God want more than anything else.
First commandment:
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
The First Tables of Stone (Ex. 20) (later smashed by Moses)
1. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me.
The Second Tables of Stone (Ex. 34)
1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god).
Ex. 22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
The first revelation of God is found in Genesis 1:1-“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” The name of God given there is “ELOHIM.” “Elohim” means “to worship.” This is the name of our God. He is THE WORSHIPPED ONE......Another name of God is “EL” or “ELI.” In Genesis 12:7-8 the Lord appeared to Abraham, and made a covenant with him. Abraham built an altar there and called the place “Beth-El,” which means “the house of God.” ........This great God is a God to be feared, worshipped, and obeyed. He is a consuming fire, unapproachably glorious.
Seems God wants us to only worship Him/Her more then anything else. Build churches and alters, make sacrificeth, bow down and sing his praise.
Of course what I like best about this idea and the quotes, is that you will note God does not say there are No Other Gods, He just does not want us to worship them. | |
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| Mithra or Jesus ?
Posted: 6/15/2005 9:31:01 PM |
oh, since you refuse to source your statements??? Okay...
I didn't refuse to provide sources. I gave explicit references to chapter and verse of my source, Isaiah.
Umm, just read Matthew 3:3 it clearly says that this is what Isaiah was talking about. Sources??????
I know what Matthew says. But I don't believe him. I think he was making stuff up to fool ignorant people. Basically you're telling me that the sole evidence that Matthew was right is that it appears in Matthew. I'm simply asking you to provide the conext _from Isaiah_ that indicates that Matthew was right.
You're kidding right? Okay, here are my sources: choose from any of them
Charles Spurgeon, Martin Luther, John Wesley, the author of the Book of Matthew.
You can appeal to all the Christian authorities you want, but that will still be a logical fallacy. What is it in Isaiah that proves Matthew right. As I pointed out Jesus failed to do anything in that chapter he was supposed to do, if it referred to him.
and your sources saying Isaiah was NOT talking about a coming Messiah is.........what some fringe website or book with an anti-Christian agenda????
I did something very strange. I read the passage in context. I suggest you do the same. | |
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