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| The gay gene; homosexuality vs: abortion??
Posted: 8/15/2008 2:00:08 PM |
I gotta say SI, I do agree with ya on this one, I don't ever remember deciding to be straight.
It doesn't seem like there is a "choice" It just happens, you have no control of it, its the way your circuits were wired. I am curious though about Bi and people that were straight and now are gay. thats a little more confusing to me. then again, hell, what do i know, I'm only 20. I don't think there will ever be proof on being born gay, but heck, ya never know
I suspect there really isn't a case where a person suddenly 'switched' preferences, merely cases where people either intentionally suppressed their real desires, either to conform to society or by religious upbringing. There's been several examples of anti gay christian politicians who actually turned out to be gay; it's a sad indication of the controlling and influencial power of religion.
As for bisexual people, that isn't confusing at all. It's only confusing if one subscribes to the on/off mentality. It's like saying people are either geniuses or retarded, with no understanding there's quite a bit of room inbetween. | |
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| The gay gene; homosexuality vs: abortion??
Posted: 8/15/2008 2:06:56 PM |
The particular arguement that really interests me, though, is those who think being homosexual is a choice; they therefore should be able to tell us when they were attracted to both sexes (or perhaps none) and decided to only be attracted to one.
Well, here I am. I will humbly admit that on more than one occasion I have been sexually attracted to another woman.
That would make your tastes bisexual then; whether you act on them or not is irrelevent.
And I will add that the last time was not that long ago.
As Americans, we are consistently bombarded by sexuality on the tele, especially with images of half dressed beautiful women. The temptation to lust after what our eyes see and desire the same is not uncommon. Have I "decided" not be find the body of a beautiful woman attractive? I can not do that.
The same way a homosexual person cannot chose who they find attractive.
But I can and have decided not to act on that immoral and unnatural perversion.
Except I'm not talking about acting on those desires, I'm addressing having them in the first place.
One does not chose to like chocolate, you either do or dont. Whether you actively eat chocolate or not is irrelevent.
As to your assertion homosexuality is 'immoral' or unnatural', it's sufficient to say that morality is subjective (what you personally think is wrong does not apply to everyone). And your arguement about 'unnatural' can be applied to anything, like cooking one's food with a microwave or driving a car. Neither of those action is 'natural' either, but I suspect you do both and think nothing wrong with either. | |
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imp78
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 53 | |
| The gay gene; homosexuality vs: abortion??
Posted: 8/15/2008 6:52:42 PM |
The Nazis tried this 60 years ago.
Exactly. That's why I think it would be a long time, if ever, before society as a whole endorsed the idea of selective breeding of humans. The stigma and horror is relatively fresh, people can remember the atrocities committed in the name of creating a master race.
As an aside ... people already do this to a certain degree when they decide to marry and have children with a particular "type" or when they include/exclude a particular race as a partner. It's not society wide or overtly sanctioned, but if you date from a very narrow physical aesthetic, then depending on your coloring, you can broadly predict where genetics will take your children's coloring. *shrug*
I doubt very much he ever used it for political gain.
Hmmm, while my faux quote was purely invented by me and I was being a little teasing ... I do believe he already has.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Cheney | |
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| The gay gene; homosexuality vs: abortion??
Posted: 8/15/2008 7:02:20 PM |
Exactly. That's why I think it would be a long time, if ever, before society as a whole endorsed the idea of selective breeding of humans. The stigma and horror is relatively fresh, people can remember the atrocities committed in the name of creating a master race.
imp do an internet search, it is already going on.
Hmmm, while my faux quote was purely invented by me and I was being a little teasing ... I do believe he already has.
He hasn't but never let a good story get in the way of the facts when a political agenda is to be advanced. | |
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| The gay gene; homosexuality vs: abortion??
Posted: 8/15/2008 7:53:15 PM | What would really be an interesting scenario is if genetic knowledge and manipulation advanced to the point where people could pick and choose many or all of the traits of their child.
Imagine: parents could be assured that any genetic illnesses would be removed (like diabetes), your child would have perfect vision, a balanced metabolism that fought obesity, etc. The possibilities are plentiful for making your child as fit, strong and healthy as possible.
But then the really interesting debate begins on whether parents have the right to dictate the sexual orientation of their child, skin colour, eye colour, etc. | |
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| The gay gene; homosexuality vs: abortion??
Posted: 8/15/2008 8:25:01 PM |
As an aside ... people already do this to a certain degree when they decide to marry and have children with a particular "type" or when they include/exclude a particular race as a partner. It's not society wide or overtly sanctioned, but if you date from a very narrow physical aesthetic, then depending on your coloring, you can broadly predict where genetics will take your children's coloring. *shrug*
This is called Sexual Selection, and explains how the Peacock has developed such an impressive display in its splendid tail feathers. In survival terms the display is costly because it makes the bird more visible to predators and slows it down in an escape scenario. The pea-hen however, is programmed to think a big, fancy tail looks great and chooses a mate who shows off the best example. Over time, this selective behaviour has produced an increasingly extravagant tail in the male animal.
But just say, in the future, parents are able to identify exactly what traits their unborn child will inherit? What will the anti homosexual proponents do with this paradoxical dilemma?? Will there suddenly be scripture that will be interpreted as a "get out of jail free" card and endorse abortion as they would rather endure this "sin" than contemplate the knowledge that they will be raising a child who is immediately labelled as "sinful" within their doctrine and dogma?
Hmm. I wonder how the homo-hating religious wingnuts of Westboro Church would tackle this question.. | |
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| Homosexuality or abortion?
Posted: 8/15/2008 8:59:55 PM | I realise, at this point, this scenario is purely theoretical, but it would appear that science is coming ever closer to at least, partially proving the "gay gene". Interesting times ahead indeed for theologians. I can't see many people who are against abortion for religious reasons re-evaluate that stance if suddenly presented with
scientific evidence that homosexuality is a genetically determined predisposition.
Based on the science some of them currently overlook, re-interpret, ignore, deny, attempt to discredit or try to prohibit
in the name of their god(s) and scripture, I think that until they could use the science to select out what they perceived to be a flaw,
they would simply intensify and focus their indoctrination of children in an attempt to answer, out-shout or counteract the reality.
As for the other, larger questions being touched on here . . .
We are technologically WAY ahead of our ethical ability. . . . I could not agree more.
Interesting times ahead for more than just theologians. | |
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| Homosexuality or abortion?
Posted: 8/16/2008 2:15:32 AM |
I can't see many people who are against abortion for religious reasons re-evaluate that stance if suddenly presented with
scientific evidence that homosexuality is a genetically determined predisposition.
Ok so that is half the equation now look at the other side.
Imagine into the future women aborting fetuses with the gay gene. Theoretically that could mean an end to homosexuality if one accepts the theory that homosexuals are born that way. What will gay rights activists have to say about this.
Already legislation has been attempted to ban abortion based on sexual preference.
What is your stand on that? | |
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| Homosexuality or abortion?
Posted: 8/16/2008 6:30:16 AM |
Except I'm not talking about acting on those desires, I'm addressing having them in the first place This is a point that should be 'front and centre' when discussing homosexuality. That is, the word defines a preference for, an attraction to ones own gender. It does not mean that a homosexual is sexually active. Yet those who speak of this "abnormal" and "unnatural" preference often seem to do so as if homosexuals are running amok in the city having their evil way with every heterosexual man they can find,that they are a "force to be feared" out to seduce us "normal" and "natural" men into their evil ways. I have homosexual friends who are celibate. I have heterosexual friends who are celibate. I feel confident that either of them are quite capable of acting with the same degree of restrain, modesty, and decorum as the other. And Lt Rossi, never fear. I doubt any self-respecting homosexual would hit on you anyway. You're not that good looking.  | |
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| The gay gene; homosexuality vs: abortion??
Posted: 8/16/2008 7:33:11 AM | "Being attracted to same sex is genetic."
Let's look at it from a scientific point of view knowing that:
- Humanity is few thousands years old.
- Homosexual genes would need to be passed on somehow in times when in vitro was not an option.
- nothing can be passed onto your offspring if you have no way to produce that offspring.
- Unless you know of a way for two women (or two men) conceiving and passing genes on, homosexuality would not be able to survive more than one generation.
Or it could be a latent gene, in which case we ALL carry it.
Or we're all born bi and are shaped by environment to take one or another road.
Point is, nothing can be genetic when by its very nature it can't be passed on. | |
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| The gay gene; homosexuality vs: abortion??
Posted: 8/16/2008 8:24:49 AM | ^^^^^^
Maybe the genetic component is but one factor in the cause of homosexuality; a predisposition that may or may not be activated by other factors in early life. My own attitude is that we may never know the full range of causes, but that no one has the right to denounce homosexuality as an "immoral and unnatural perversion," as one poster has commented, on the say-so of some fusty old book of ancient myths that they choose to base their lives on. It is simply the way that some people are for whatever reason. We should no more attach a moral value to it than we would to eye or hair colour. | |
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| Homosexuality or abortion?
Posted: 8/16/2008 8:28:57 AM | *And (IMO) God did not create man (or woman) to desire one another, we have a perverted our sexual orientation all by our onesies.
were in the bible is this? or even close to it.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Don't you know that evil people won't have a share in the blessings of God's kingdom? Don't fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual
1 Timothy 1:10
The Law was written for people who are sexual perverts or who live as homosexuals or are kidnappers or liars or won't tell the truth in court. It is for anything else that opposes the correct teaching
1 Cor. 6:18
Don't be immoral in matters of sex. That is a sin against your own body in a way that no other sin is. 19You surely know that your body is a temple where the Holy Spirit lives. The Spirit is in you and is a gift from God. You are no longer your own. 20God paid a great price for you. So use your body to honor God.
Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
*The english word sodomy means either homosexual or heterosexual anal intercourse, is the same name of the city.
The term "sodomy" is also used in ancient laws to refer to a variety of sexual behaviors in addition to heterosexual intercourse. Some of these laws are still on the books.
Jeremiah 23:14
"...among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. They are all like Sodom to me; the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah."
The most damning scripture I have read is in Ezekeiel, where God Himself condemns the homosexual:
Ezekeiel 16:49-50:
"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me.
Therefore I did away with them as you have seen." ~God
*For one to believe that God created these people as homosexuals, then damned them because of it is ludicrous. | |
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| Homosexuality or abortion?
Posted: 8/16/2008 8:58:30 AM | ^^^^^
Therefore I did away with them as you have seen." ~God
All I can say to the above is, what an a$$hole! If the alleged god of these verses who brags of doing away with people for disliking their sexual behaviour was an actual person down here on Earth, he'd probably be serving time behind bars. In fact we've got a killer in prison in England, Dennis Nilsen, who preyed on gay men in this way. How anyone could find such a person lovable is beyond me, although I'm aware there is a phenomenon of women becoming attracted to sadistic death row brutes and even marrying them on occasions. Takes all sorts I s'pose... | |
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| Homosexuality or abortion?
Posted: 8/16/2008 9:07:14 AM | | the term homosexual was added to the original scripture,the actual term was not even a word until after the 1900s.the term used was perverts or perversion. | |
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| Homosexuality or abortion?
Posted: 8/16/2008 9:30:42 AM | In Leviticus, we read it as clear as day, void of the word "homosexual" at all, which by the way, in the original text read "sex of same".
God said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22).
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13).
In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. We can debate all day on many Biblical topics, but I am afraid this is not one of them. | |
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| The gay gene; homosexuality vs: abortion??
Posted: 8/16/2008 12:14:09 PM | | I support life and can not think that killing any one who is not trying to kill you as anything other then cold blooded murder. It is never the child's choice to die. If a child is born it will have a fault to deal with all people are like emeralds it is our faults that make us beautiful. I live with my want of Wendy's Bacon double cheese. I could easily be 700lbs if I just gave in to it. Take that Canadian who became the zero man for AIDS in NYC and SF yes he could have kept it in his pants zipped but he did not and is dead now and I'm sure never meant to hurt any one. If I had a time machine and could go back to the night his mom met his dad I would not stop it from happening. I would not stop them from making him I would not give her something to make her miscarry I would not kidnap him and lock him away I would not kill him because that would not be the right thing to do. Okay? Killing some one who is not attacking you is a total thou shalt not. | |
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| Homosexuality or abortion?
Posted: 8/16/2008 6:36:58 PM | In Leviticus, we read it as clear as day, void of the word "homosexual" at all, which by the way, in the original text read "sex of same".
God said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22).
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13).
In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. We can debate all day on many Biblical topics, but I am afraid this is not one of them.
again.what if you are born an hermaphridite?how do you know what sex you are? | |
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| Homosexuality or abortion?
Posted: 8/16/2008 7:32:31 PM | So God condemns people He created for being what He created?
That's just darling!
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| Homosexuality or abortion?
Posted: 8/17/2008 2:22:52 AM |
*For one to believe that God created these people as homosexuals, then damned them because of it is ludicrous.
So are you saying that gay folks choose to be gay? Trying to figure this out....
So what is it? He didn't make them gay. Or, He did, but doesn't damn them. Then why all the negative passages about gays?
And actually, why are gays even singled out at all, when there are so many other things God has listed as abominations, such as:
DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
DEUTERONOMY 22:22
If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
MARK 10:1-12
Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
LEVITICUS 18:19
The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.
(from: http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian)
Really!, I'd like to know why these laws are not subject to the very scrutiny of the laws that gays must endure. Is it because these laws are mostly broken by the rest of humanity??? By the samereasoning that most Christians hold that gays are an abomination, then so am I, as I was hardly a virgin when I got into my marriage bed, and I sincerely doubt that most women were either.
For one to believe that God created these people as homosexuals, then damned them because of it is ludicrous
But I think what you're trying to say is:
A young Jewish scholar asked Jesus, "What is the greatest commandment?" Quoting the prophets, Jesus replied, "The great commandment is this... to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and the second command is like it, to love your neighbor as you love yourself."
"This is my commandment," Jesus said, "that you love one another, as I have loved you." On this the Bible is explicitly clear. Even if we disagree about what the Bible seems to say about homosexuality, we can agree that above all else we are commanded by the Scriptures to love God and to love one another.
Since God is the God of truth, since Jesus himself told us that the truth would set us free, one way that we love God and love one another is by seeking the truth about sexual orientation wherever we can find it.
...excerpt from same citation^^^....
Correct me if I am wrong, as I am quite interested exactly how God isn't damning them, and it is "ludicrous" to believe so.
And you still actually haven't answered the question...when armed with the knowledge that your child is gay, what will you do? Will you abort or have the child, knowing in your faith, he/she will be an "abomination"?
Should you have the child, scripturally, how will you justify this "abomination"?
Cheers, Raven | |
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| Homosexuality or abortion?
Posted: 8/17/2008 5:02:29 AM | | I do not know any homosexuals who were not at at time in thier childhood raped. I do not believe in it being 100% chioce but I do not think that it is in ones DNA. I think that xx should marry xy and have babies enroll them in the best schools and keep them protected from pervs. As a teacher I had a boy who was shy and looked out the window a lot one day I asked him what he was thinking. He looked at me with tears and said,"You can't understand how I'm missing my mom." I told him that every one is missing their mom I showed him a picture of my mom and I then asked him to pick a person who can sit with him. He picked my wild girl. I asked her if she would please keep him company as he was missing his mom. They had a great year and the best thing is the wild one calmed down and he got a bit braver. Now some one trapped by the gender role boxes would say he is girly she is boyish but a person like me sees them as people who needed each other to get their world in order. I hate the sex role boxes they are not part of God's plan for us. | |
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| Homosexuality or abortion?
Posted: 8/17/2008 9:31:48 PM | Perhaps, I can attempt to add some reasoning to consider Raven.
Leviticus was created to be a form of 'cleaniness' laws in order to the Hebrew people to prosper and to keep specific places scared. For instances, forbidding the consumption of shellfish makes perfect sense for that time period. Shellfish, when not properly cooked or handled, can be extremely deadly. Look at lobsters which become poisonous if you kill them before you cook them. Others such as not allowing women into temples while on their period, blood was considered to be unclean and capable of spreading multiple disease, and requiring Priests to shave all of their hair, which would protect them, and hopefully the temple, from things such as lice, were created to keep the Hebrew population healthy. Likewise, looking at it from that time period, homosexuality (specifically male) did not increase the population of the Hebrew nation and increased the chances of infectious disease (things such as anal sex can be extremely unsafe is not done properly ((ie properly hygiene, proper lubrication, ect)).) Therefore, adding it to the list also makes sense.
However, in our more moder culture, a majority of these laws simply no longer apply due to the nature of advances in personal hygiene and health care. We know how to properly handle shellfish, or deal with the repercussions of those who don't. Women have products they can use to keep themselves clean (and I do apologize for how this sentence sounds, but I cannot seem to word it better at the moment,) and we can deal with lice effectively. Homosexuality, however, still goes against what is precieved as being the 'natural' order of things and therefore is still targeted.
In all honesty, I have never understood how divorce became so common-place now when there were literal wars fought over the topic. The fact that nearly all major Christian institutions no longer seem to care (they do not condone the action, but they certainly don't object as much as they used to.) is completely baffling. What happened to the days when people would be ex-communicated from the Church for getting a divorce? When their families and friends would completely abandon them? | |
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| Homosexuality or abortion?
Posted: 8/17/2008 10:00:37 PM | [quote[In Leviticus, we read it as clear as day, void of the word "homosexual" at all, which by the way, in the original text read "sex of same".
God said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22).
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13).
In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. We can debate all day on many Biblical topics, but I am afraid this is not one of them.
Leviticus also clearly states that any child who disobeys their parents should be stoned to death by the entire village.
Exodus 21:7 states that a father is allowed to sell any of their daughters into slavery.
And if a man sells his daughter to be a female slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do.
Ex0dus 35:2 states that anyone working on the Sabbath day should be put to death.
Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.
Corinthians 11:14 says that it is shameful for a man to have long hair.
Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?
And then we can go on into Leviticus and discuss all of the other cleanliness laws, such as the one I mentioned earlier which states it is a sin to eat shellfish. And there are other topics, too, such as the Bible's numerous passages which obviously state that women are inferior to women and made to be servants and not equals.
I have no issues with which faith you choose to believe, but do not pick and choose selective passages out of a work that you base your faith upon and use them as weapons against others. If Christianity believes that homosexuality is a sin, then fine it is, but do not make such a claim based upon certain passages while ignoring others.
On a final note, you will not find the word homosexuality in the Bible. The language used in the Lex Scantinia and Lex Iulia (which were Roman sexuality laws both explicitly forbidding sex between two free-bondsmen of the same gender) is not found within the Bible once. In fact, Paul uses the word arsenokoitēs in 1 Corinthians 6:9 which is a word not found in any other text within that time period. | |
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Pisk
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Joined: 6/17/2008
Msg: 73 | |
| The gay gene; homosexuality vs: abortion??
Posted: 8/20/2008 2:42:00 PM | I, too, am pro-choice. (hope you don;'t mind my writing on your thread)! But, indeed, it will be a sticky wicket when we start deciding who lives and who is not allowed to live, by genetics,. Brings to mind the "master race" of Hitlers. I, like you Raven, feel that homosexuals bring their own unique gifts to the table (what a wonderful way to say it). Homosexuality is accepted in many cultures around the world. Why do the Christians continue this persecution? When there are murderers and rapists and thieves and God know what else that are needing the attention of those that wish to police the planet. I think that these that wish to condemn the homosexual should someday have someone they love be homosexual. Perhaps then they would see where we are all alike, and quit focusing on the differences.
What you brought up, Raven, makes my blood run cold.
Well said...pro-lifers want to conserve all life but hey...any chance of being homosexual and Im sorry but you are for the chop old fellow..to me thats double standards, the whole christian following all over Im afraid. :( | |
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| The gay gene; homosexuality vs: abortion??
Posted: 8/20/2008 4:31:35 PM | They already can, with almost certainty, allow parents to choose the sex of their babies. Many chinese were doing this, choosing to have sons, because daughters were not needed by the families. Simply filtering the spermazoa through a microscreen separated the ones that would carry the genetic material choosing male or female.
It could be further said that under a microscope, only "healthy, vigourous sperm" were selected for artificial insemination. This allows the parents to have the best chance of having a healthy boy.
Sperm banks carry info on the donors...hoysical characteristics, mental abilities, etc, etc, making parents able to choose the best possible combination for their child.
In vitro testing can determine of the fetus is healthy or carries a genetic defect. Parents can again choose to abort, or go ahead. Continued testing can show if there are any abnormalities, and the pregnancy can be terminated if the parents wish it so.
Therefore, having healthy babies with certain characteristics is becoming more and more of a reality with each passing years. | |
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| The gay gene; homosexuality vs: abortion??
Posted: 8/24/2008 5:41:28 PM |
I, like you Raven, feel that homosexuals bring their own unique gifts to the table (what a wonderful way to say it).
Why thank you! (sorry it took so long for me to reply. been on vacation yay) I've always felt that gays were different, but in a very good way! They seem to be able to look at perspectives I normally wouldn't think of...
I think that these that wish to condemn the homosexual should someday have someone they love be homosexual
I've seen this happen. It isn't pretty, and I've seen more families torn apart than I care to remember. Saw one young man commit suicide, and the family just heartbroken and consumed with guilt. So very tragic and so very stupid. All because of what a book said. Plain insanity, in my opinion.
Does it strike anyone odd that no-one wants to answer the question specifically?
In vitro testing can determine of the fetus is healthy or carries a genetic defect. Parents can again choose to abort, or go ahead. Continued testing can show if there are any abnormalities, and the pregnancy can be terminated if the parents wish it so.
Therefore, having healthy babies with certain characteristics is becoming more and more of a reality with each passing years
Personally, I see nothing wrong with this. However, with the question of what to do with the less desirable babies, how does a Christian scripturally support this?
Cheers, Raven | |
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