|
|
|
|
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 12:10:01 AM |
Fort Worth's homicide rate ?
The last numbers I found were for 2006 .........51 . The death penalty, CCW laws all over the state allowing handguns almost anywere including inside airports (up to the secure areas of them, at least), and a self defense law that allows you to shoot someone that isn't even a threat to your life - like someone robbing your house.
Still more murders, and more crime. If CCW laws actually reduced crime, then this would not be true.
I don't know where Edmonton, Canada is, or what it is close to. However, I do know where Ft. Worth, Texas is, and that it is part of the Dallas/Ft. Worth Metroplex. The Metroplex encompasses at least two counties, and more cities than I can recall.
People who live in the Metroplex refer to the area, as if it were one city. The Police Officers that work in the Metroplex may work for any given city. However, they must "work" the entire Metroplex, as city limits are only defined by the signs indicating them in that area.
When considering crime rates for this area, one should consider the entire Metroplex as a whole. | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 12:54:34 AM | Your posting reads like bad science. Lets talk about how bad oxygen is because it causes metal to rust, can you imagine what that is doing to your body?
Posting about the death of the democrat doesn't even correlate to your statements of '[concealed weapons permits causes impulse killings]' the dude drove hours away to do him in. If he didn't have a gun, he would have just drove over him. Should we revoke everyone's license now too?
There may come a day when American's will have to stand up to their government, if I had my way every american would have a gun. I agree, the first few years it would be the wild west, but soon after social Darwinism would play out. I'm pretty sure if everyone owned a gun equality would happen really quickly. | |
|
| |
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 12:00:36 PM |
There really is more to gun control than hitting what you aim at. It's also about knowing how to refrain from taking aim at illegitimate targets.
Both of those skills require training and practice. Until we provide universal training (which the founders assumed would be routinely done at home in their agrarian economy), we cannot presume that people know how to handle guns safely. And, if I can't count on my fellow citizens to handle a deadly weapon safely, I'm going to be rather reluctant to support them in having access to them. Call me a prude.
As far as I can tell, the topic of this thread is legal concealed carry.
You have the right to worry about whatever you'd like, but I think you'd be far better served to worry about the driver in the car next to you, than to worry about a person walking down the street who has a concealed carry permit.
Thankfully, we don't *usually* pass laws based on what people are worried about, but instead, to address *real* problems that we have in society.
38 states (last I heard) have "shall issue" concealed carry laws, where the Sheriff (or other authority) "shall issue" a permit to anyone who meets the state's training requirements and is not disqualified by reason of felony or mental health history.
Before you rush off to change the status quo, wouldn't it be prudent to first establish that there is in fact a threat to society? | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 12:06:46 PM | I for one, am in favour of harsh if not brutal justice! How about
the death penalty for carrying an illegal weapon? Not the, death row,
years down the road, make Lawyers RICH, type of system. But the
third world, hang em next week type of justice?
Or Graffiti artists! Off with both hands, first offence!
The ONLY problem I could see with this, would be the unwillingness
(for obvious reasons) of the offenders to surrender! But on the other
hand it simply may not be an issue, and this is what the Liberal D0-Gooders
always seem to fail to see. Most people would simply not misbehave! The
risk, simply wouldn't be worth it!
Look to countries like Malaysia or Muslim countries where you could leave
your camera or wallet lying in the street. I think too many individuals in positions
of power within our society have too much to gain with our joke of a justice system! | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 1:00:59 PM | PS,
If you prefer living under those brutal regimes, I'm sure there is one who'd welcome you. However, once you got there I suspect you'd change your mind.
Say what you will about liberal do-gooders, governments and leaders who behave brutally set a tone for everyone who follows. You not only get brutalized for breaking the laws, you run the risk of brutal suppression of any new innovation or even idea that you come up with. There is a reason why Muslim fundamentalists want to go back to the Middle Ages, yet I suspect that most ordinary Muslims would prefer to have indoor plumbing.
There is a reason why America's #1 product is innovation. We are free to do that here to a much larger extent than anywhere else. We also have the most diverse population mix of any nation in the world, and that mix gives us a much broader menu of ideas and perspectives to draw from than anyone else has.
Along with that freedom and diversity comes some discomfort and the occasional shock. But just because something is unfamiliar doesn't mean it's bad. I remember when PCs first came out and all of the people who were scared to death of 'em. But would you want to go back to the days when you had to type letters by hand and couldn't go back and correct your typos? I don't think so.
It turns out that the ones who have something to gain by a justice system that attempts to protect the rights of the accused is ... all of us.
If the "Will Issue" laws require adequate training and a thorough background check, I have no problem with them. | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 1:08:44 PM |
The last numbers I found were for 2006 .........51 . The death penalty, CCW laws all over the state allowing handguns almost anywere including inside airports (up to the secure areas of them, at least), and a self defense law that allows you to shoot someone that isn't even a threat to your life - like someone robbing your house.
Still more murders, and more crime. If CCW laws actually reduced crime, then this would not be true.
More murders and more crime? Compared to what? Is it fair to say "City x has more murders than city y", without stating the population of each? How many murders per 100,000 population?
I see a lot of posts on here, but not a shred of actual evidence that "shall issue" concealed carry laws are a bad thing.
In virtually every state that has passed "shall issue" concealed carry, someone has predicted "blood in the streets if we pass this". Nowhere has that come to pass, and some of the predictors of gloom were actually honest enough to admit that they were wrong. | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 1:09:39 PM | Why do people always have to make those extremist arguments?
I'm sure we can pick and choose! I'm sure we could have Brutal
and swift Punishment, which I might add, we would rarely have to
utilize, AND we could still have democracy (Not that we have it
now anyway). I'm quite sure that we could keep our indoor plumbing
and wouldn't stone women for infidelity! | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 1:11:53 PM |
If the "Will Issue" laws require adequate training and a thorough background check, I have no problem with them.
Nice to know that you might approve. The relevance of your approval is somewhat doubtful.
AFAIK, almost every state that has "shall issue" concealed carry requires training and a background check.
Some may continue to argue whether or not the required training is sufficient. I would suggest that they are arguing against a non-problem, as we have yet to see any factual evidence here (or anywhere else) that the staus quo creates a problem. | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 1:54:13 PM | How much training do you need to have? Do you need to go to a class to decide when your life is threatened, or does the average person just know when he's afraid for his life? A gun is very easy to teach some one to use safely and effectively in a matter of hours. A car? Far different story, yet we let 16 year olds use them without thought, and nearly 6000 of those a year don't come home, according to the Allstate ad on TV.
IT IS A NON PROBLEM.
Oh - on the road rage issue, what if someone uses a big, fat knife?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,406762,00.html | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 2:19:20 PM |
Oh - on the road rage issue, what if someone uses a big, fat knife?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,406762,00.html
Good point. The villain in this story used a knife AND a vehicle to attack others, causing serious bodily harm and death. Note that his use of the knife was also charged as an offense by itself:
was being held Tuesday in the Polk County Jail on charges of murder, attempted murder, aggravated battery on a law enforcement officer, carjacking and improper exhibition of a weapon.
Now, by the apparent logic used by some, we should not allow ordinary citizens to possess knives or automobiles.
But that would be "throwing the baby out with the bath water", wouldn't it? | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 2:21:38 PM | o/p lets say we agree with you that guns are the scurge of the earth. they are the root cause of all the evil in the world and they should be destroyed.
-everyone who is a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN line up and lets melt our guns down.
-what about the NON LAW ABIDING CITIZENS? who refuse to give up their guns? -gives them a pretty good edge doesn't it?
remember there are at least 100 million firearms in the U.S. alone
who is going to track them all down. -its not very difficult to acquire or fashion a crude firearm.
-PANDORAS BOX HAS BEEN OPENED -THERE IS NO GOING BACK!
-i sleep better knowing i can defend my home, and car... hummers are evil cars anyway -just ask a sub compact car. | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 2:30:05 PM |
Good point. The villain in this story used a knife AND a vehicle to attack others, causing serious bodily harm and death. Note that his use of the knife was also charged as an offense by itself:
And by that logic, if everyone has a gun then no-one will use cars to attack others.
This whole "if they don't have guns they will just use cars/knives/staple removers" is so patently moronic.
It's no different from saying "why make murder illegal, if someone is determined enough they will just kill you by making you commit suicide".
Really... instead of the mindless slogans designed to appeal to a 4th grade intellect, how about actually using some rational, adult reasoning (I know it's really hard but do try).
Or is that expecting too much? | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 2:42:10 PM |
I'd love to see you prove one of them to be false. I'm referring to proof here - facts and logic, not belief. And that statement is an "argument from ignorance" fallacy. They are rhetorical fallacies and that makes them false arguments (and that is "facts and logic", look it up).
Heroin is illegal. Who has heroin? Criminals (or outlaws)
Cocaine is illegal. Who has cocaine? Criminals (or outlaws)
Methamphetamine is illegal. Who has methamphetamine? Criminals (or outlaws)
So, if you outlaw guns, who is going to have guns? Criminals (or outlaws), hence the saying "When Guns Are Outlawed, Only Outlaws Will Have Guns".
You can declare this to be a "logical fallacy" all day long, but such declaration means little. Rather than some arbitrary declaration on your part, how about some facts and logic that show it to be wrong? | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 2:49:35 PM |
And by that logic, if everyone has a gun then no-one will use cars to attack others.
What logic?
This whole "if they don't have guns they will just use cars/knives/staple removers" is so patently moronic.
Moronic, why? Because the best argument you can make against it is to declare it "moronic"?
It's no different from saying "why make murder illegal, if someone is determined enough they will just kill you by making you commit suicide".
Excellent point - thank you for bringing this up, as it strikes to the heart of the debate, even though it is an argument I have not heard before.
murder is an ACTION. a handgun is an OBJECT.
Killing someone with a gun (or anything else, including your bare hands) is illegal, except when self defense can be sufficiently established.
Killing can be performed with a wide variety of objects, most of them with other purposes that are legal and useful. If we are to ban all of the objects with which killing can be performed, we're going to find it much harder to get around, tend our gardens, and eat our food. | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 2:51:30 PM |
So, if you outlaw guns, who is going to have guns? Criminals (or outlaws), hence the saying "When Guns Are Outlawed, Only Outlaws Will Have Guns".
In order for that to be true someone here would have had to argue that guns should be outlawed.
Unfortunately for your arguement, NO-ONE HAS ARGUED FOR OUTLAWING GUNS HERE!
Hence your arguement is a logical fallacy. It has no bearing on the arguements already made and is therefore an irrelevant point.
That arguement is like saying "apples are good for you because oranges are sweet", the two have no connection.
However, when someone actually does say "guns should be outlawed" then you might have a point but as it is, it's just sloganeering and 3rd grade thinking. | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 2:53:47 PM |
remember there are at least 100 million firearms in the U.S. alone
who is going to track them all down. -its not very difficult to acquire or fashion a crude firearm.
-PANDORAS BOX HAS BEEN OPENED -THERE IS NO GOING BACK!
Actually there is going back. Governments around the world are doing it. Just chip away at one area at a time. Assault rifles, why would any person need one? The sale of high capacity magazines? What are you doing fighting a war? Does a person need more than six shots to neutralize a menace? If they do then they probably could not hit the broad side of a barn. Why not let everyone have rocket launchers. Well at least the one's with bad eyesight. If there is no going back I say the heck with it, take a running leap off the cliff.
Edit: Where did I say you could not have a gun in the house? I am not saying going cold turkey. Move your society back slowly. It would probably take 100 years but your children's children may thank you.
No offence taken 2Fast. | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 2:58:11 PM | ^^^^WOW how about a round of applause for Mr.Condescending:roll eyes:
Slogan or not isn't the issue here. What's your first line of defence should an intruder decide your home is next on the list? Are you just going to let him in and serve tea while he robs you of all your hard earned things?
Let's say he wants your daughter too, are you planning to just surrender her to him?
One has to wonder if people who have lived a sheltered life are truly capable of seeing the bad things that happen here in the real world. But hey you live your way and I'll live mine. As stated before in these threads....if the pitbull doesn't get ya, the 357 will:wink:
Edit: My apologies Printer. I was not refering to you as condescending. | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 2:58:43 PM |
So, if you outlaw guns, who is going to have guns? Criminals (or outlaws), hence the saying "When Guns Are Outlawed, Only Outlaws Will Have Guns".
In order for that to be true someone here would have had to argue that guns should be outlawed.
Really? The truth of a statement is dependent upon whether it relates to some conversation? The sky is only blue if we are discussing the color of the sky, otherwise, it's pink with purple polkadots?
Very interesting.
While you seem to be an intelligent person, your lack of intellectual honesty disqualifies you from further effort on my part. | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 3:21:15 PM |
Good point. The villain in this story used a knife AND a vehicle to attack others, causing serious bodily harm and death. Note that his use of the knife was also charged as an offense by itself:
And by that logic, if everyone has a gun then no-one will use cars to attack others.
This whole "if they don't have guns they will just use cars/knives/staple removers" is so patently moronic.
It's no different from saying "why make murder illegal, if someone is determined enough they will just kill you by making you commit suicide".
Please forgive me, but, I can't find the logic train here, let alone where the track is that it may have been on; if there was ever a logic train, or a track for one to follow.
The argument has been made that if ALL guns were removed from society, save those kept by law enforcement and the military, the crime rates would go down. This sounds like a logical argument to make.
Using this logic, ANY implement, be it knife, car, club, scissors, whatever, that can be shown to be inherently dangerous to public safety, would have to be removed from society as well.
Using this logic, cars, not foolish, inattentive, or drunk, drivers, but, cars kill more people than guns do, every year. So, cars can be shown to be inherently dangerous, exceedingly more so than guns, to public safety. Thus, using this logic, ALL cars should be removed from society, in the interest of public safety.
History tells us that people were killing each other with a huge variety of weapons, long before guns were ever invented.
Really... instead of the mindless slogans designed to appeal to a 4th grade intellect, how about actually using some rational, adult reasoning (I know it's really hard but do try).
Or is that expecting too much?
The same question might be asked in response. | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 3:38:58 PM |
Really... instead of the mindless slogans designed to appeal to a 4th grade intellect, how about actually using some rational, adult reasoning (I know it's really hard but do try).
adult reasoning such as "that is mindless sloganeering, because it doesn't relate to the conversation"?
I must admit, it is much easier that actually factually refuting a statement. | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 4:07:55 PM | Nero,
Refer to the Heller Supreme Court Case. The Second Amendment is here to stay, get over it.
There are volumes written by the founding fathers to back this up.
There are State Constitutions that back up the Second Amendment.
Frankly it doesn't matter who is against CCW laws. It's in the Constitution.
37 States have shall issue CCWs, well over 99.5% of license holders never cause a problem.
The facts do not support your case in the least.
Now I have nothing against open carry though it may freak some people out.
Refer to http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/687643/posts | |
|
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 4:15:21 PM | Please forgive me, but, I can't find the logic train here, let alone where the track is that it may have been on; if there was ever a logic train, or a track for one to follow.
The argement is made that (to paraphrase and restate):
If no-one has guns then they will kill with something else (cars, knives, staple pullers, whatever).
The corollary of that is:
If everyone has guns then they will kill with the gun and not with something else (cars, knives, staple pullers, whatever).
Your own statement bears this out
History tells us that people were killing each other with a huge variety of weapons, long before guns were ever invented.
And when guns came along (advanced enough for the every day joe blow to use effectively) people began using guns, primarily because of their increased efficiency.
Using this logic, ANY implement, be it knife, car, club, scissors, whatever, that can be shown to be inherently dangerous to public safety, would have to be removed from society as well.
Not really because the rationale is not the same, this is applying an "appeal to ridicule" fallacy because of the inherent nature of the compared elements. Guns WERE designed SPECIFICALLY as a killing tool. They were originally and specifically designed as military weapons (scaled down cannons).
The compared items, cars, knives, etc. were originally designed as tools (e.g. knives are 100's of thousands of years old and were used in dressing game and food prep. They weren't hunting or defense weapons, we know this by the original designs that have been found. The designs were largely incompatible with fighting/hunting because of the way they had to be held. The killing/hunting weapon designs were clubs, axes, spears, and later, arrows. They did not become weapons by design until the ability to manufacture metal implements hard enough to be used effectively for this was developed).
The difference is that the cars, knives, etc. have an original (and current) design purpose other than killing things but are sometimes used (for killing/harming) outside that original design purpose.
Guns are the exact opposite. Their original (and current) design purpose is to kill (you can argue about "putting holes in paper" all you like but that is not the design purpose and it really is not much more than practice for killing). There are no other design purposes for the vast majority of guns out there. They won't cut your steak, dress a hide, get you from "a to b", carry a load of firewood or drive a screw (they may drive a nail if you've got more money than brains but that is nowhere near the design purpose).
Sure a gun is a tool but, it is a tool for killing and no other purpose (that's why you generally don't see any "Swiss Army Guns" out there with screwdrivers, toothpicks, bottle openers and tweezers built in). | |
|
| |
| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 4:51:05 PM | I grew up around firearms.
We lived off the land...........hunting, fishing and trapping.
I was taught gun safety and to respect firearms.
I never thought I'd ever need to protect myself but always had the "just in case" and "it's there if I need it", attitude.
Up until 1990, when I was living alone.
Ex was out of the country and children where gone more than they were home.
I had a king size water bed and kept the gun between the mattress and the frame.....
Thank God, I did.
Not saying I would have died but I do know my life would have been changed forever, had I not had it.
I wasn't out waiting for someone to do something wrong so I could shoot them....and a "make my day" attitude or road rage.
It was around 3 AM, I was tucked in my bed, and asleep.
I'd been watching TV and was propped up with three or four pillows.........
there was a slight giggle of the bed which cause me to wake up...but not all the way......half asleep.
Then the slide of a person on top of me......my heart racing........the hot breath on my face and my brain starts screaming....gun, gun....slowly get the gun.
Yet, I couldn't move.
I felt paralyzed and it was difficult to breathe.
I pretended to be asleep.............and at that point I don't know if my arm was easing over or not.
When he grabbed me by the throat, I reached for the gun and when he pulled me toward him...........I****d my gun and it was at his head.
Even though he appeared crazy...eyeball to eyeball contact....he wasn't stupid enough to keep holding me.
He back tracked off the end of the bed and I rolled off the far side.........he ran for the front door and I was behind him.
I worried about him going into the other three bedrooms and hiding.
I didn't have to shoot........just the knowledge of knowing I had a gun was enough for him.
I never thought I'd need it, I'm thankful I live in a country that doesn't have a ban on guns......
Oh, the police took over 20 minutes to come........
I have my firearms...........in case I need them.
Just like I have accident insurance, in case I have an accident.
More and more, it's not the majority of people that get catered too...it's the minority and what ever seems to make them "uncomfortable" or they don't happen to agree with.
ceeceekitty | |
|
|
| Page 10 of 13
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 |
|
Home
login 
