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Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea      Home login  
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 Plastic Sturgeon
Joined: 12/5/2007
Msg: 251
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea Page 11 of 13    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13)
^^^^Sounds like a guy that a friend of mine was telling me about
down in PA. He is an ex Police Chief and there are handguns
everywhere in his house! Behind pillows and cushions, behind the
microwave and everywhere else! It's funny but probably a bit
much! Because of storage regulations, I don't even have ready
access to a firearm, nor Police for that matter, as I live in the sticks!
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 252
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 5:12:00 PM

^^^^^^A friend of mine once had a walking stick that was also a 22! NICE!

It was an antique. I'd actually prefer something in a 12 gauge version!

With a nice Malaysian load to boot!

Don't you think a 12 guage "zip gun" (they aren't much more sophisticated than that) is a bit on the excessive side?

It's obviously a close quarters weapon so I'd think .410, 28 or 20 guage with a slug would give you just the right mix of stopping power and manageability in something like that (not being a shouldered weapon and all).

I personally have a lot less issue with single/double shot concealed weapons than 15-18 round capacities (seriously, if you need that many bullets your either a crappy shot and have no business with a gun in public or you are going out of your way to "invite" a reason to use them).
 Plastic Sturgeon
Joined: 12/5/2007
Msg: 253
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 5:21:24 PM
I think if your gonna use force, it might as well be excessive!

There is only one tactical principal which is not subject to change.
It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of
wounds, death and destruction on the enemy in the minimum
amount of time.

General George S. Patton Jr.



If I only had one shot, I'd prefer that it scatter!

Actually, I hardly touch a gun at all anymore. Whether it's not fearing
death as much anymore or just believing that we often attract that which
we focus on.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 254
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 5:41:04 PM
There are many good reasons to prefer shot over slugs, not the least of which is that shot is devastating at short range and has low penetration. If you miss, which is highly unlikely, a bystander isn't liable to get killed. Shot isn't good in a hostage situation, though, but you can still shoot out tires to prevent an escape.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 255
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 6:14:18 PM

There are many good reasons to prefer shot over slugs, not the least of which is that shot is devastating at short range and has low penetration. If you miss, which is highly unlikely, a bystander isn't liable to get killed. Shot isn't good in a hostage situation, though, but you can still shoot out tires to prevent an escape.

Personal opinion... big round, low velocity (like .45)... that's the ticket in close quarters. Shot works fine in bigger guages (16-10) but it leaves something to be desired in the smaller guages (.410-20, shot in the smaller guages runs into problems with being deflected/not penetrating things as light as leaves and cloth because of needing to 'step down' the shot size). I'd rather use a slug at close quarters (a few feet away, like you might encounter with the aforementioned "cane gun") with a small guage (smaller guage for control, slug for punch). Shot and larger guages are better at distance (several feet away), IMO. Again... personal preference.
 Clandestiny
Joined: 8/9/2007
Msg: 256
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 6:30:17 PM
You know, I don't like guns at all. I would rather not be around them. But i still keep a couple in my home. Part of it is for safety, part of it is because I CAN.
 Plastic Sturgeon
Joined: 12/5/2007
Msg: 257
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 7:01:39 PM
I don't like 45s at all any more!

Years ago, I bought a beautiful S&W 45 Stainless Automatic,
Couldn't wait to get it home!

Pulled up to my house (in the country), loaded up and shot into
a wood pile! A fraction of a second later the slug came back and hit me
in the shoulder! Not impressed.

By the way, I recall that walking cane was a 410, not 22. 410 is too lame
a shot to be putting down people, in my opinion! Might slow them up a bit!
 pirateheaven
Joined: 5/11/2008
Msg: 258
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 7:05:19 PM
Well, you may need a few shots if you run across a gang situation.

I would have to believe that when people are shooting back, your aim may wander a bit.
I have read stories where cops empty their magazines without hitting the perp.

I wouldn't use anything less than 12 gage for self defense. Double OO buckshot followed by a rifled slug. Pump action. If you had a side by side and fired both barrels it would be hard to miss.
 printer2
Joined: 6/19/2007
Msg: 259
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 7:35:49 PM
Ok now the posts are getting rather silly. It is almost like everyone is pulling up a shirt or pant leg and showing their favorite piece.

I am not sure what I would prefer. While I never had one I think my choice would be a 4” 1911 in 9mm.
 Plastic Sturgeon
Joined: 12/5/2007
Msg: 260
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 7:53:44 PM
Ah, not silly, just more enjoyable! lol

Better then people with differing belief systems arguing,
and incessantly quoting the other, and still more arguing!

Just plain STUPID and incredibly boring!!
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 261
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 8:12:32 PM

Pulled up to my house (in the country), loaded up and shot into
a wood pile! A fraction of a second later the slug came back and hit me
in the shoulder! Not impressed.

Well, yeah...

Three things you don't shoot at (other than things that explode) are:

Rocks

Old tires

and trees (a woodpile counts as a tree, even more so because they are usually hardwood)
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 262
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 9:28:30 PM

Better then people with differing belief systems arguing,
and incessantly quoting the other, and still more arguing!


It would be OK if people were actually arguing instead of just spouting. We all know you believe what you believe. We also know that it is your God-given right to believe whatever crazy nonsense you want to. Some of you are probably saying the same thing about me.

But in a real argument among adults, people listen for the element of truth in the other person's views. There usually is one.

In this case, there is a real (if perhaps remote) danger that a government will become corrupted to such an extent that it will have to be put down. Of course the citizenry can't possibly hope to overcome the military force. However, all that is needed is for an armed citizenry to hold the soldiers at bay long enough for them to figure out who they should be fighting for and turn on their commanders. So, outgunned though we are, citizens still need access to guns as the final check on government power.

So, now that I've argued the case for people who might have considered me anti-guns, I wonder if there are any pro-gun folk out there who'd be willing to demonstrate their understanding of the case for more stringent controls and the truth in that argument.

I know it's a stretch, but as I said, if we handle it like adults, no one will hold you to the position you acknowledge despite whatever other disagreeements you have.
 Smuggler1
Joined: 8/7/2008
Msg: 263
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/28/2008 9:29:46 PM

It's obviously a close quarters weapon so I'd think .410, 28 or 20 guage with a slug would give you just the right mix of stopping power and manageability in something like that (not being a shouldered weapon and all).

I personally have a lot less issue with single/double shot concealed weapons than 15-18 round capacities (seriously, if you need that many bullets your either a crappy shot and have no business with a gun in public or you are going out of your way to "invite" a reason to use them).


Wow... first thing Ive ever read that I agree with!!! Although, semi-automatic's, 9mm/.45 acp have multiple rounds. One of those semi auto's that hold an excessive number of rounds seems stupid.
 oc_jon1965
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 264
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = LOWER CRIME
Posted: 8/28/2008 9:34:01 PM
thats a PROVEN fact . . .

criminals HATE armed citizens . .

and in cities where you can legaly carry a Weapon
to PROTECT yourself . .and your family
there is a massive drop in crime

its a terrible Idea . . if you are a Liberal Leftist . .
ruins the whole "government will save you" mentality

a weapon once saved my life . .

if you have same experiance . .your "opinion" will
change too . . . but opps . . you dont believe in owning a gun
you'd just be simply . . . "DEAD "
 maxxoccupancy
Joined: 2/5/2007
Msg: 265
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = LOWER CRIME
Posted: 8/28/2008 10:25:19 PM
I've become a fan of both the 1911 .45 ACP and the use of clay bullets. I've been suggesting that folks (including cops) keep a clay or other less lethal round in the chamber for a number of reasons:
1. Less hesitation in a real crisis.
2. Ability to fire even when innocent bystanders are around.
3. Road rage incident (it happens, anyone can lose it) becomes a much smaller matter.
4. If the gun is taken from you, you are less likely to be killed by it.
5. Ability to shoot through glass without fear of initial deflection.
6. Less likely to ricochet, hitting the shooter.
7. Instant access to less lethal weapon, leaving lethal strike option open.
 bigshrek
Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 266
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = LOWER CRIME
Posted: 8/29/2008 3:41:28 PM
My preferences are for the .357SIG (relatively new cartridge) and the 10mm.

Texas now uses the .357SIG because it WILL penetrate. They used to use 9mm's, but after two shootouts where 9mm proved not effective against a human target (one man was shot 19 times INCLUDING two headshots by 9mm's and was still trying to reload whilst charging officers...two headshots by shotgun slugs finally killed him) after those episodes the Texas Dept of Public Safety changed to .45ACP, then after the Semi incident they went with the .357SIG. The Secret Service has also gone to the .357SIG for extra penetration & stopping power.

The 10MM is twice as powerful as the .40S&W (Short & wimpy), has a flat trajectory out to 50 yds and does very nasty things to bad guys. However, most average people cannot handle the 10MM in a handgun...it's got some serious kick. If you aren't a 6'+ tall gorilla who can flip small cars all by himself, forget it.
 maxxoccupancy
Joined: 2/5/2007
Msg: 267
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/30/2008 5:18:30 PM
People view car ownership as necessary to the operation of society, but not gun ownership. However, we see states where firearms ownership has been banned, and their violent crime rates have risen drastically. As a whole, areas with high rates of private gun ownership have not seen significant increases in violent crime.

The gun control debate is interesting because we all have seen cities, states, and countries where people have been disarmed (Jamaica, Australia, Washington, DC, Balitimore, Massachussetts, New York), and violent crime rates have risen dramatically. Most Americans no longer support civilian disarmament, but gun control advocates still do. The reason is that the phobia of firearms takes precedence over the much greater danger of being attacked by a criminal. I've never met a gun control advocate who wasn't irrationally afraid of guns.

The danger is in the emotional, irrational decision making process. I don't vote for gun control advocates because I see them making emotional decisions in other areas, as well. They've been unable to handle traffic safety, medical issues, school safety, budgetary policy, FDA approval issues, tanker design, maritime issues, national defense, or almost any other public policy matter.
 2_First_Names
Joined: 1/19/2008
Msg: 268
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/30/2008 5:49:07 PM
[The only people who "need" to carry these things, IMO, are cops (on duty) and crooks]

Crooks "need"to carry??? Why???

I say if the bad guys can illegally have guns then as a law abiding citizen I should be allowed to protect myself... Also if it is legal to carry concealed then the bad guys don't always know if I am or not and gee if they have to think on that guess what.. they might think twice hhmmmm....

Now do I carry or no???
 pluger60
Joined: 3/11/2008
Msg: 269
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/30/2008 5:49:36 PM
I'm sorry, but it is silly to think law enforcement can protect you & your loved ones on a one to one basis. No matter where you live.
 bailandbountyman
Joined: 8/27/2008
Msg: 270
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/30/2008 5:55:22 PM
you are wrong.

i have a concealed carry permit and i carry everywhere i go except in a school or courthouse. crime would be throught the roof if people like us werent armed.
 tallskier
Joined: 5/20/2005
Msg: 271
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = LOWER CRIME
Posted: 8/30/2008 7:01:08 PM

Texas now uses the .357SIG because it WILL penetrate. They used to use 9mm's, but after two shootouts where 9mm proved not effective against a human target (one man was shot 19 times INCLUDING two headshots by 9mm's and was still trying to reload whilst charging officers...two headshots by shotgun slugs finally killed him)


While this is anectdotal evidence, it is not a lone case of this type. And yet, some still question the need for high-capacity magazines. Amazing!
 tallskier
Joined: 5/20/2005
Msg: 272
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/30/2008 7:04:26 PM

I'm sorry, but it is silly to think law enforcement can protect you & your loved ones on a one to one basis. No matter where you live.


I agree. Furthermore, just see what happens if you are robbed and/or injured by some miscreant, and you try to sue the police for failing to protect you. You'll lose.
 Lostcauz
Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 273
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/30/2008 11:43:18 PM

I agree. Furthermore, just see what happens if you are robbed and/or injured by some miscreant, and you try to sue the police for failing to protect you. You'll lose.

An exceptionally good point.

The US Supreme Court has, and many other Appellate Courts have, ruled that law enforcement has NO DUTY TO PROTECT AN INDIVIDUAL. In fact, US Courts have consistently ruled that one's individual saftey/security is an individual duty.

Thus, it is up to the individual, not the Police, to ensure one's safety.

Thise could very well be one of the issues that lead the US Supreme Court to its most recent decision in Heller.

I am a former Police Officer, and generally speaking, I do not go armed when I am out in public. Nor, do I have a Concealed Carry Permit for where I presently live. Although, all I would have to do is go down to the Sheriff's Office, show my Peace Officer's License, and would likely be issued a Concealed Carry Permit without having to the required class.

Personally, I haven't felt the need to go around in public armed. However, given that my fiance', and her young daughter, will be living here in just a few weeks, I have been giving the matter of getting a Concealed Carry Permit much thought.

I feel it's a matter of personal choice, and responsibility. For me, I'm not very concerned about being harmed by the criminal element in society. However, when it comes to my family, for whose safety/security I am responsible, having the ability to prevent their being harmed, makes me think a little differently about the issue of carrying a concealed weapon.
 CLASSIELAD777
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 274
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/31/2008 12:22:25 AM
REMEMBER...........

"GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE....
DRIVERS USING CELL PHONES DO!!!!!!"
 bigshrek
Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 275
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/31/2008 2:10:25 AM
Yerp, cell phones are responsible for huge amounts of deaths due to people being stupid while driving.

You've got more chance being killed by a person driving while using a cell phone than you do of getting shot by a bad guy...on the upside, if you have a tire iron handy you can beat that dumb bunny to death for being a blooming idiot
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