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Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea      Home login  
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 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 26
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea Page 2 of 13    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13)

What happens when you get confronted by a bad Canadian??

Again, you're missing the point.

You are still approaching the idea from the perspective that "I MUST have a gun 'JUST IN CASE'. Until you are willing to think beyond "ANYONE out there is a potential threat to me" you never will get it.

Your "What happens..." question is irrelevant to it because Canadians, generally, don't see "others" as inherent threats and, consequently, don't have the same "just in case" mentality of "nobody did anything today but whatif someone does tomorrow?".

You're trying to make the "bogeyman" argument to people who aren't afraid of the "bogeyman".
 BOT TAK
Joined: 8/4/2006
Msg: 27
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/14/2008 3:52:03 PM

But if there is no other reason for a gun then to shoot people and kill, and this equipment has NO other purpose, then it stands to reason that every women with her “equipment” has no choice but to be a prostitute. There is NO other reason for that “equipment” either. Same with men…we must be sure to spread our seed everywhere and anywhere. There is nothing we can do about it. We are not responsible for the “equipment” we’re born with
This is not true..once your point has a ground, the examples you use are nonsense.

"Women's equipment" as well as "men's" has purpose to have children in the first place. Then people start using it for getting pleasure, which again was created so everyone would want to keep the process of making babies going and only after that people started to sell it for money or just fool around for free, which wasn't a purpose of the "equipment" at all.

Guns are for protecting first of all. They don't have to shoot, most guns lead very quiet life I bet. Mine was shooting only in trainig purposes and I want it never be used in real life against anyone. If criminals use them, it doesn't mean they created to kill.
 drivin_dude
Joined: 6/23/2008
Msg: 28
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/14/2008 4:15:14 PM

Yes it’s true. We need to keep the guns away from every law abiding citizen by force of legal action. .............
..........We are not responsible for the “equipment” we’re born with. Well unless we had a brain or something.



Thats awesome, and I completely agree.

Most of you have never needed a gun, and hopefully you never will need one or someone with one. If that day comes when someone could possibly save your life you may think different. Say a woman walking to her car in a dark parking lot, you think hitting someone with your purse is going to help? Maybe the guy who thinks he is going to save her, that didn't see the guys buddy in the shadows.... I know everyone thinks they live in a perfect world and that kind of stuff will never happen to you.

I know most have heard the analogy of the Sheep, Wolves and the Sheepdogs. Its ok for you to be sheep as long as the sheepdogs will be there to protect you against the wolves.

There is a reason we are the way we are in this country, and guns brought it about. They left them in the hands of citizens to prevent the government from completely taking away your rights. Like it or not, but guns made your freedom possible, and help you keep your freedom. There are some bad apples that use them wrong, but its no different than people abusing other rights given to you. I know, I know but they don't kill people... yeah many of them can and do.
 steelcowboy1959
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 29
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/14/2008 4:22:32 PM
I think it is great that some people trust their government totally, Hate guns,and will remain unarmed because they also trust their fellow man. I don't, I don't,and I won't.
 Strongdad
Joined: 6/9/2007
Msg: 30
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/14/2008 4:45:52 PM
Actually, your premise, while sincere, I am sure, is incorrect. In states where it is legal to carry concealed, crimes actually go down.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html

Question: What does the title mean: More Guns, Less Crime?

John R. Lott, Jr.: States with the largest increases in gun ownership also have the largest drops in violent crimes. Thirty-one states now have such laws—called "shall-issue" laws. These laws allow adults the right to carry concealed handguns if they do not have a criminal record or a history of significant mental illness.

Why you think the incident could not have happened without a concealed weapon law, is beyond me. It makes no sense. People commit heinous crimes daily with guns, or without concealed weapon permits. The one thing you don't hear about very often is the numbers of people who use guns legally to stop a crime.

More Guns, Less Crime, John Lott....it's worth reading. Good topic.

SD
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 31
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/14/2008 5:43:26 PM

More Guns, Less Crime, John Lott....it's worth reading. Good topic.

You really push this book a lot despite the many flaws in his methods.

This wouldn't happen to be YET ANOTHER case of Lott spamming the internet with reviews and praises using a fake identity, would it?
 printer2
Joined: 6/19/2007
Msg: 32
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/14/2008 6:17:37 PM


I know everyone thinks they live in a perfect world and that kind of stuff will never happen to you.

Never had a gun, knife, baseball bat pointed my way in anger. My world is not perfect, but it is not doing too bad.


There is a reason we are the way we are in this country, and guns brought it about. They left them in the hands of citizens to prevent the government from completely taking away your rights. Like it or not, but guns made your freedom possible, and help you keep your freedom.

I am free from the worry some guy who wants to feel manly is packing. Around here it is the cops and bad guys who have guns on the street. The bad guys generally shoot at other bad guys and the cops shoot at the bad guys. It is slowly getting worse with kids wanting to be tough guys like they have in the States.

I fail to see how I am less free than my American brother considering we have not felt the need to enshrine gun ownership to protect us from our government.

I am not saying it is right or wrong that you have concealed carry permits. If I spent much time in the US I might be inclined to get one also. But the reason they may be needed may have something to do with the attitude that comes with the right to bear arms.
 sstratdigger
Joined: 7/12/2008
Msg: 33
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/14/2008 6:38:35 PM
It is true that occasionally someone with a concealed weapon permit, commits a crime using their weapon. But one cannot in any way but common sense measure the number of crimes that did not take place because criminals have knowledge that are concealed weapons in the vicinity. To ignore the rights of many because a few abuse their rights is a foolish, foolish concept. I want as many armed law abiding background checked folks with concealed guns around me and my family as I can get. The police can't always get there in time, but my neighbors can be there in a minute or less. Not all gun right advocates are wild looking movie type rednecks (lol) (no put down to rednecks) (larry the cable guy rocks), most are just the average guy on the street just trying to live in peace and hoping somebody who screams everytime they think President Bush has ignored the constitution, and then demands that some judge somewhere ignore the constitution and take my guns away.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 34
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/14/2008 7:11:26 PM

I have worked with a local police dept for two years and we have a name for people like you VICTIM

Let's just have a little look at that statement. We'll use this line as our point of reference for this little example since it is a good example of this 'imminent doom' fear that gets tossed out all the time.

I often drive through areas known for violent activities, and there have been 2 violent home invasions in "safe" neighborhoods in Orlando in the past week.

2 home invasions in just 1 week, that sounds really scary.

Let's see, metro Orlando has a population of ~2 million so...

If we assume everyone is a single citizen in a separate home it would take almost 20 thousand years for each resident to experience this JUST once at that rate.

Now, we can be certain that every Orlando resident ISN'T a single resident in a single home so let's go the other way and assume that every 4 residents comprise a single home (that would be mom, dad and 2 kids). In this scenario it would STILL take almost 5 thousand years for each family to be hit JUST once at that rate.

ONE chance every 5 thousand years of being hit by a home invasion for the average family.

Even if we increase the frequency of invasions by 5 times it would still take one thousand years for each family to be hit just once.

ONE chance every 1 thousand to 5 thousand YEARS.

Yep, that sounds SO MUCH like the kind of imminent and impending doom that requires being heavily armed, sure does, yep.
 sstratdigger
Joined: 7/12/2008
Msg: 35
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/14/2008 7:18:54 PM
It is simple to make statistics of the victims of violent crimes. But ask them if being a minor statistic helped at their time of need. I hope that nothing violent never happens to you or your family mungojoe.But, if it does, I hope that since you are only a small statistic that you will not mind being the victim that someone can quote as insignificant.
 countryboy121
Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 36
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/14/2008 7:24:46 PM
i'm very much in favor of conceled carry permits nationwide, we should actually go to open carry as well. guns are a part of our culture, always will be. and i will never give up mine. the second amendment to the constitution clearly states i can own and carry. gun control laws do not work, neither does casing stamping, smart guns, etc. it boils down to personal choice, and liability if you murder someone in cold blood you go to jail,etc. and the self defense laws in this country are non existent besides Texas. it should be legal everywhere for me to defend myself. because its up to us, the police can't be and shouldn't be everywhere, that's a police state and that's just wrong. bad guys will never give up their guns. so i shouldn't have to give up mine, that's like going into a gun fight with a knife, I'm going to loose. and i'm going to guess that most of those "gunshot victims" on the brady campaigns websites, are prolly felons to begin with.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 37
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/14/2008 7:33:39 PM

It is simple to make statistics of the victims of violent crimes.

But not nearly as simple as shouting "Booga, booga, booga, you'll die if you don't have a gun, booga, booga, booga".

At least considering the possibilities in light of their reality requires that you actualy give the problem some rational thought rather than merely jumping for the most firepower you can muster as if it somehow changes that reality.
 maicoh
Joined: 4/15/2007
Msg: 38
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/14/2008 7:33:53 PM
Maybe if all the bad guys thought all the good guys were armed, they would think
twice.
 NERO1
Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 39
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/14/2008 8:31:29 PM
QUOTE: They don't feel the same NEED to have a gun at their bedside "just in case" or to have a gun tucked away on their person "just in case". Canadians simply don't see the world and others as being the threat to their persons that Americans often do, don't have the same "just in case" mentality and therefore don't see firearms as being an absolute necessity.

^^ Mungojoe, that's another part of my basic point, and my thinking on this whole issue. I was not raised around them; I was raised to believe they are dangerous and are to be stayed away from, and therefore I do not hold that kind of "just in case" mindset at all. Perhaps it's in peoples' cultural backgrounds more so than country of birth.

Are you Canadian? If so, why do you think this is??? I have read MontrealGuy's cultural filter thoughts, and that is true to an extent I'm sure, but then at the same time it must go beyond that. Why exactly does America seem to simply be a more hostile environment in general than Canada or western Europe?

I have spent considerable time in western Europe, and in capital cities there one feels safer than in any large American city. It HAS to have at least something to do with the gun element. But at the same time, there just does not seem to be the same level of constant latent potential aggression , or certainly not to the same degree, against one's neighbors. There just does not seem to be that feeling there.

I didn't go there with a biased mindset looking to find that; it was my conclusion after time spent there and I brought it back to this country with me. Then what I saw around me here just confirmed it (personal observations --- everything from peoples' behaviour on the roads to the daily headline events here ... shooting deaths over literally nothing are so common here they're like reporting a chance for showers).

Is this country simply more hostile , or at least more potentially hostile, than other countries , or is it just the fact that these lethal weapons are readily available and in some states legal to carry daily , or ?? Because you just do not see this kind of thing elsewhere. Obviously however, the weapons for this degree of daily violence simply are not there, or not readily available whatsoever, and that has to have at least something to do with it.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 40
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/14/2008 11:10:28 PM
Are you Canadian? If so, why do you think this is??? I have read MontrealGuy's cultural filter thoughts, and that is true to an extent I'm sure, but then at the same time it must go beyond that. Why exactly does America seem to simply be a more hostile environment in general than Canada or western Europe?

Actually I'm American. Other than a few years I lived outside North America, I've lived back and forth between the two all my life.

I think MG has a good part of it with the filters. Some of it is rooted in the fundamental attitudes that formed the nations. If the birth of the US were to be described by "Don't tread on me", the the birth of Canada could be best described by "It seemed like a good idea". While it certainly helps account for the difference in attitude regarding the whole "guns against tyranny" thing (which is pretty much just an outdated joke at this point. When I start hearing about how someone's S&W is going to save them from a fully equiped infantry fire team I just think of that bit from "Casablanca", the "...don't amount to a hill of beans..." part) but, I don't think that quite covers it all, especially the propensity to justify violence over property.

That part, I think, is more about how the countries grew and their arche-typal myths, if you will. America grew, in large part, through military conquest (the various Indian Wars, Mexican-American War, Spanish-American War, Phillipine-American War) Canada grew more through 'absorption', assimilation basically (it had it's violent moments but not anything close to the same extent). Americans have Mountain Men with their Kentucky longrifles, Canadians have Voyageurs with their canoes. Americans have pioneer families with wagons in a circle fighting marauding Indians and Canadians have les Habitants and soddies. Americans have the cavalry charging over the hill while Canadians have the North-West Mounted Police sauntering up and saying "What's all this then?".

A lot of that propensity, the NEED, evolves from those "frontier legends". As a result, Americans tend to view guns as a shield, primarily for use against others (i.e. "What good is a gun if I can't get to it before he gets me") while Canadians tend to view them more as a means, primarily to put food on the table (i.e. "What good is a gun if there's no game to hunt").

Those are the PC answers anyway (meaning the ones that won't attract the attention of our local "House Committee on Un-American Activities"). There are a lot of other contributing factors for the easy attitude around what is worth killing for but I'll probably just get slammed for those.

Is this country simply more hostile , or at least more potentially hostile, than other countries

Overall, no but when it comes to managing conflict, yes
 musicianfriend
Joined: 7/23/2007
Msg: 41
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/14/2008 11:56:05 PM
IF..all those people mentioned in the above post that were harassed by a gun HAd a gun...there would probably be ALOT LESS of those incidents happening...

the bad guys get really bold when their victims do not have a weapon...Bad guys will always have guns..its pretty niave to belive that disarming the innocent polulation would end crime....it would only makes us..the good guys..sitting ducks..

Guns dont kill people....PEOPLE do..

Just recently...they REARMED Washington DC...Why...because they disarmed the good citizens...and crime ran rampant...alot of innocent people died during that liberal gun law crap..

people need to realize one thing....its a big ugly mean world out there...there are bad guys...the good guys MUST be armed..

I could own 20 machine guns...10 bazookas...a tank...50 grenades...I wouldnt be using them unless attacked...I wouldnt be holding up banks...robbing peoples houses...but when the bad guys came to my house....they would definately have a problem...

Arm the innocent to protect the innocent..The bad guys will always have weapons..to think anything different is niave. sorry.



*Two posts following this deleted = Billboarding. Let other people have a turn before posting again...if you didn't edit your post in time, wait. And - I don't know how many times I'll have to say it - Under NO Circumstances are you to EVER post the details of another posters profile data in open forums. Ever. Consider yourself lucky you are not suspended for this.* TheMadFiddler - PoF Forum Moderator
 jewel67
Joined: 4/23/2004
Msg: 42
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/15/2008 12:38:05 AM
It is particularly silly to try and use metaphors like: murder with bats, or steak knives, or cars to those committed using handguns; it shows ignorance and a real lack of critical thinking about the subject.

Bats are for playing baseball, people could kill with a bat, but never as easy as with a gun. Cars are made for transportation; even though you can kill using a car, it's still easier to rob and kill using a gun. I could go on using all those moronic suggestions that were brought up.

Guns are made to kill. If u wanna argue that killing is sometimes required for defence, go ahead, at least were getting onto the right track.

The U.S. is a very violent nation. Some see no other way to protect themselves, so they believe guns are the only answer. It's kind of like living in the old West - -shootouts, and call out the sheriff, there's gonna be a hanging. Nice to see some countries have opted to progress, some others are struggling to convince their Neanderthal demographic that it's for the best.

I agree that it's predominantly a cultural thing.
 Triumvirat
Joined: 5/12/2008
Msg: 43
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/15/2008 3:22:54 AM
Op and there are many more examples of rape,robbery and murder,if you don't want to carry a gun don't,and i guess anytime you are out in public or on the road if you get the urge to be a jerk you might think twice.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 44
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/15/2008 3:30:58 AM
I think Munjo is one of the better sources in this thread on the subject , since he's one of the few that has actually spent a lot of time in both countries, and that gives him a rather unique view on their differences.

If one centers the discussion in this thread on just the "gun" element, it won't lead us to what I feel is the heart of the actual social paradigm that's responsible for driving the incidents the OP refers to . I really do think it goes far beyond that in it's complexity, and centering the argument only on it misses that entire side of the "why".

Through my foreign eyes, when I look at America, I see this country that has defined itself in so many ways through it's association with firearms. The sound of a musket was the birth cry of your nation, and all through it's history the sound of gunfire has been a constant.

Your defining moments, many times, have centered around men with guns. Your cultural heroes, even ones in your arts and culture, are often armed. The quintessence of the American cultural hero is one man standing up against the crowd, and that man is frequently armed. This returns to that concept of the individual over the group, and enforces and enables it, and that's another American social paradigm.

There's a commonality between these myths, a line that connects them in a straight path over your country's history. From your founding fathers, your frontier gunslingers, your Civil War heroes, your Roaring Thirties gangsters, right through to fictional characters like Al Pacino's Scarface , and Bruce Willis in Die Hard - they all represent the same cultural model of the armed individual as this positive embodiment of that individual standing alone against the group.

If we look at the gangsta rap music world, we see this same model being presented as a positive one. To me, it's the same American myth at play.

Think about it for a moment, even outlaws with guns there have this "positive" modeling about them, in almost a romantic sense. When Tony Montana yells " Say hello to my little friend! ", the audience cheers him on.

I've always found it ironic that your laws make it quite difficult to kill a convicted criminal without rounds of appeals for a heinous crime like murder, but in some states there any citizen can kill someone who is only trying to break into their car with full protection under the law - and be considered a hero while doing it. The individual has more power than your judicial system does, and can apply the death penalty instantly to someone who is committing a minor non-violent crime.

My feeling is that this is only due to that social paradigm at work. Those two classic American cultural filters , those of individuality and firearms, intersect there and allow such acts to be legally done. The supreme power the individual has there is the one over life and death, in an almost godlike manner.

What occurs is that the bar is lowered, and that type of mindset is perhaps what drives the people that the OP mentioned to do what they do, in a corrupted version of that same social paradigm.

Now in this country, as recently seen, when even a policeman shoots someone dead - he better be armed and about to kill someone, or the population is revolted.

Now if you take this way of looking at it, and then throw in the demographics of higher population density, and greater wage inequality and poverty there - it multiplies it.

So I see this as being the base part of the reasons for such illegal use of firearms in the acts the OP mentioned. It has far less to do with guns, than it does with the social paradigm that the society those guns are found in does.

If I was to be handed a firearm here, it would carry none of those qualities with it. It would be a tool to target shoot with, to collect, or to hunt with. I would not see it as a means of self-defense.

Even if I were to somehow be one of those fifty or so Canadians that have a right to carry a concealed weapon for protection, I would be legally limited to using it to protect myself, and no one else. Technically, were I to shoot someone with such a legal weapon who was trying to kill a member of my family - I'd be breaking the law. Of course, in the real world, in a justified case of such use, such an act would probably not lead to a jail sentence.

Canadians still have a right to use their legal firearms for self-defense against a clear and present danger to their lives, but that's considered the last option only after a rather long list of possible other actions.

The reason that occurs is simply due to the cultural models that drive society here, and those models are as deeply embedded in our DNA as yours are in America.

That's why I don't think that one can change such models as easily as some might think, and trying to do so will be resisted heavily by a majority of the population of both countries if one attempted it.
 Triumvirat
Joined: 5/12/2008
Msg: 45
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/15/2008 3:35:37 AM
I suspect it has more to do with the experience of people dealing with real life...."a long list of options" sometime there isn't time for that....Mungo's "perspective" more like his ignorance,to reduce crime and it's victims to the fear of the boogeyman is extremely ignorant and indifferent towards the millions of victims and ther families
 Nightwing66
Joined: 8/1/2006
Msg: 46
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/15/2008 5:29:55 AM

The quintessence of the American cultural hero is one man standing up against the crowd, and that man is frequently armed. This returns to that concept of the individual over the group, and enforces and enables it, and that's another American social paradigm.


I've often wondered if that mindset didn't originate w/ the religious
persecution/complex inherited from the Puritan settlers....& subsequently re-inforced by wanting to see the conquest of the native people as something other than akin to the Colonialism from which the 13 colonies themselves were trying to escape.
 sstratdigger
Joined: 7/12/2008
Msg: 47
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/15/2008 5:41:08 AM
I think Munjo is one of the better sources in this thread on the subject , since he's one of the few that has actually spent a lot of time in both countries, and that gives him a rather unique view on their differences.

The fact that someone has spent time in another country is of no value to this debate. We are talking about the American Constitution. What another country thinks does not hold one iota of importance.
 NERO1
Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 48
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/15/2008 5:57:24 AM
QUOTE: I've often wondered if that mindset didn't originate w/ the religious
persecution/complex inherited from the Puritan settlers....& subsequently re-inforced by wanting to see the conquest of the native people as something other than akin to the Colonialism from which the 13 colonies themselves were trying to escape.

^^ It's another thought that might be worth exploring.

MontrealGuy and Mungojoe, brilliant analyses, above. Lots of great food for thought there. I am essentially in agreement with your guys' posts.
 Beachbum 1960
Joined: 8/3/2008
Msg: 49
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/15/2008 5:59:29 AM
MG.

It seems obvious to me that those in favour of guns are never going to change their minds on the subject because of their, usually unfounded, fears from attack, mis intepreted consitutional rights, fear of their government and their neighbours, love of killing things, or even those silly filters you mention.

Maybe when America gets to the level gun ownership and usage enjoyed in the Brazilian favelas, then, all to late, they might just realise how stupid it really is.
 r90sboxer
Joined: 9/18/2005
Msg: 50
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/15/2008 6:16:02 AM
Again, you're missing the point.

You are still approaching the idea from the perspective that "I MUST have a gun 'JUST IN CASE'. Until you are willing to think beyond "ANYONE out there is a potential threat to me" you never will get it.



Actually....you're skating[Canadian past-time?] around the point.

The original point of the poster was that seemingly normal and adjusted people were now gun toting,shoot-em-up renegades.
See the point yet???
I already think EVERYONE is a potential threat to me and would rather take all the legal measures available to me for my defense and those who I care for.
You're on your own.
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