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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/15/2008 8:13:07 PM | It is particularly silly to try and use metaphors like: murder with bats, or steak knives, or cars to those committed using handguns; it shows ignorance and a real lack of critical thinking about the subject.
It can seem like it should be silly to compare bats, steak knives or cars to handguns. On the other hand, I was threatened with a ball bat once. Not just to be hit by it but... to be killed by it. It didn't seem particularly silly at the time. | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/16/2008 5:46:19 AM | | I am a gun owner and because the police cannot be everywhere I feel I am well within my rights to protect myself and my property. I have witnessed as recently as last night a situation where I wished I were carrying my 357. I pulled into a 7-11 and there were 3 "thugs" walking through the parking lot. I went out of my way to avoid them, yet they chose to walk directly in front of my car and talk trash about how I was trying to run them over. They displayed no weapons, but there were 3 of them and 1 of me. In my eyes this was a possible threat since the odds were stacked against me. Had I said anything to them, things could have gotten ugly real quick since they obviously didn't have enough sense to move out of the way of a car. So OP you keep on thinking guns are bad, and I will keep on owning and carrying when appropriate and I hope you survive long enough to see that responsible gun owners are NOT the problem here. It is the "thug" mentality that ALOT of the youth of today has that causes problems. | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/16/2008 6:12:23 AM |
That's a very "American" viewpoint, that you won't find many people here having.
Yes....it is.Yes......I am and proud of it.
The reality of it is that only 1/2 of 1 percent (that's 0.5%) of ALL Americans will face a violent crime which endangers their personal safety or life at any given year.
By the same analogy I used with the home invasions that would mean you would need to live two lifetimes in order to need your gun.
That is a very far cry from the "wolves at the door" mentality that is being portrayed by the "I NEED my gun" attitude.
I have been robbed twice in my life,once at gunpoint.....not much fun.My house has been compromised twice[two different places]so I guess I have done my part to spare others these inconvenient bits of life.
Maybe I should throw snowballs instead?Naaaahhhh | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/16/2008 7:05:52 AM |
I wished I were carrying my 357. I pulled into a 7-11 and there were 3 "thugs" walking through the parking lot. I went out of my way to avoid them, yet they chose to walk directly in front of my car and talk trash about how I was trying to run them over. They displayed no weapons, but there were 3 of them and 1 of me. In my eyes this was a possible threat since the odds were stacked against me.
And just what exactly would you have done with a gun?
Boo hoo some strangers called me names, they had no weapons so I'm a macho man and I'm going to show these goofs I'm the man.
I must admit that is quite the mentality and a good reason to ban hand guns
A bad guy holds you up with a gun, you must be one hell of a quick draw seeing as he already has his gun on you. Not only that but the criminal now has your gun he can sell on the street.
To those who say, we need our hand guns to protect ourselves from the government.
Hate to burst your bubble but the government controls the military. What exactly would you do with your precious hand guns against military weapons?
If I lived in a country that was as unsafe as some would lead us to believe, I would not be claiming it to be the best and would look to a safer country to take my family and myself to.
Seems paranoia runs deep. | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/16/2008 7:25:37 AM | I pulled into a 7-11 and there were 3 "thugs" walking through the parking lot. I went out of my way to avoid them, yet they chose to walk directly in front of my car and talk trash about how I was trying to run them over. They displayed no weapons, but there were 3 of them and 1 of me. In my eyes this was a possible threat since the odds were stacked against me. Had I said anything to them, things could have gotten ugly real quick since they obviously didn't have enough sense to move out of the way of a car.
This is NOT a situation where you need to pull a gun on anyone, and echoes back to the OP's post on the dynamics behind such acts.
One pulls a weapon only when one is intending to use it to protect one's life - or someone else's. One draws a weapon only if there is a high probability of using it, and under no other circumstances.
I have been robbed twice in my life,once at gunpoint.....not much fun.My house has been compromised twice[two different places]so I guess I have done my part to spare others these inconvenient bits of life.
I've lived in Canada for fifty one years now. My neighborhood is a multi-ethnic working class one, and I often walk it's street alone late at night.
In my entire life, I've never been held-up - nor has anyone I know.
I've never had my place broken into, and I know only a couple of people that have had that experience.
The only time I might have been facing someone with a weapon, was when a rather drunk and obnoxious punk tried bumming some money off me going to work. When I refused, he started calling me names and following me.
When I turned around, he reached into his jacket pocket for something.
I reached into mine......and pulled out my cellphone and held it up. I also knew where a police car was taking it's break (about a half block away or so) . He was unaware of that, but I wasn't.
Whatever he had in his pocket, it stayed there, and he walked away.
Had he decided to continue, I would have dialed 911, and retreated to the position of the police car. Had that not been enough to deter him, I do have enough knowledge of how to defend myself (and some normal things on me, that can be used as weapons) to have most likely ended that incident rather quickly in my favor. | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/16/2008 4:18:58 PM |
I have witnessed as recently as last night a situation where I wished I were carrying my 357. I pulled into a 7-11 and there were 3 "thugs" walking through the parking lot. I went out of my way to avoid them, yet they chose to walk directly in front of my car and talk trash about how I was trying to run them over.
Wow, three teens thinking that, as pedestrians, they have the 'right of way' and cars have to stop for them not the other way around and talking all tough about it!
Who would have ever guessed?!? That NEVER happens with MOST teens, no sirree, never seen that in my life and not almost every day (even going back 30-40 years).
Had I said anything to them, things could have gotten ugly real quick since they obviously didn't have enough sense to move out of the way of a car.
And, if you had gotten out and started acting all tough with them because they were kids and you thought that as an adult with a car you have priority it might very well have led to a confrontation (who would guess that?), not because they were necessarily in the wrong (they may very well have had the right of way putting you in the position of having to wait for them) but, because you decided to make a big deal out of nothing by getting out and 'puffing your chest'.
Instead, you acted like an adultand didn't make a 'federal case' out of something insignificant (sort of, the way you tell the story makes me think that maybe you wish you had been carrying so that you could have "put the fear of God into those little punks for not waiting for you first"). | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/16/2008 5:36:24 PM | We don't deserve to "Bear" arms..our forefathers are turning over in their graves right now. Look at what we have become. Unless we change our morality and values back to those from 1776 we will be using guns in unlawful manners because we can't control our supposed "right" to do so. They should only have to be used for Hunting or to keep an intruder from your home, anyone who carries in public that isn't a police officer has a small wanker and can't use his fists..IE: Fat redneck guys with big mouths  | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 8:50:36 AM |
I've lived in Canada for fifty one years now. My neighborhood is a multi-ethnic working class one, and I often walk it's street alone late at night.
In my entire life, I've never been held-up - nor has anyone I know.
I've never had my place broken into, and I know only a couple of people that have had that experience.
And that's great......for you.
I could probably come up with dozens of my friends with the same easygoing circumstances but I can also come up with half as many that have had compromising situations.Hell,a woman I know had some really scary moments with her now ex-husband.Didn't see it coming...some people just react differently to stress.
Oh yeah,he did end up in jail for his crap,along with the corporate embezzling charges that caused the stress to begin with.
Just never know who the bad guy is do you???Maybe we can get our local governments to enact "Scarlet Letter" laws and all the bad[and potentially bad??]guys and girls will wear red "A's" on their persons. | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 9:01:32 AM | BUGGSY and MG the point of my post was to show that there are situations where the threat can exsist.
I was not concerned with the name calling hence there are not 3 thugs dead in the 7-11 parking lot. How ever had they decided that I was attempting to run them over with my car and engaged me in a violent manner then I would have surely been on the losing end of that fight.
On the other hand had I been armed then something as simple as "click click" would be an attention getter and defuse the situation before things got out of hand.
You guys are so quick to jump on the man who is merely defending himself . I am 100% in favor of avoiding confrontation, but when you have 3 "gangsta wannabe's" in your face all options are on the table.
The bottom line here is that society today isn't the fun happy place it was when I was growing up. I respect others and try my level best to be polite and cordial to anyone I meet, however when confronted by a thug punk who has no other goal in life except to make a name for himself for a little bit of "street cred"then I have no problem handling the situation with whatever I have at my disposal which includes a 357 magnum. | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 9:45:59 AM |
I have no problem handling the situation with whatever I have at my disposal which includes a 357 magnum.
Why would anyone want to run around with a 357 magnum? A Colt Mustang .380 or a .32 caliber revolver should be enough to persuade wayward souls. And if you had to fire at someone you may actually hit them without a blast of recoil throwing off your aim. Best of all they may end up telling the tale not to mess with a bad dude like yourself.
Not that I am advocating the use of guns, I just think the little ones are cute. | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 10:04:41 AM | Just never know who the bad guy is do you?
Ironically, there's a high probability it's someone you already know, and not a stranger. Only about one in five homicides are committed by someone the victim doesn't know. 
That means they are already familiar to you, and you won't be as able to defend against them.
On the other hand had I been armed then something as simple as "click click" would be an attention getter and defuse the situation before things got out of hand.
Or several other alternatives might have occurred.
You might have pulled a gun, they would have scattered, and then pulled theirs. Try hitting three rapidly moving targets at night , with only six shots ? God knows what they might have pulled. What if they were wearing bullet proof vests, something that's not impossible today ?
Want to go up against a Mac-10 ?
You might have pulled a gun on three totally innocent teens, too. That might have escalated into something where at least one of them, or you, was dead after it was all over.
For just words ?
Firing a 357 Magnum in an urban environment isn't a good idea either. You will be naturally focused on your target, and not looking at what's behind it. That gun can bring down a bear , and your round will (if you hit your target) probably transit it into whatever is behind it.
Just the muzzle flash alone from your first shot would temporarily reduce your night vision. Your recoil will throw off your aim for the next one, losing more valuable time.
If you miss, God only knows what you will hit.
If it has to be done, it has to be done - but it's best avoided, unless there is a high probability of death or injury. | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 12:59:40 PM | Alright then I'll just hope and pray the police can get there before I get beaten to death, and if/when I recover from my injuries I'll sue the police for not protecting my life.
Man you people just make mountains out of molehills. I avoided the situation as a RESPONSIBLE adult should. I let the whole incident slide as a LAW ABIDING citizen should. I took the comments like a MAN, but again you are missing the whole point....do any of you believe that you have a right to protect yourself? Do you not hold the perpetrators responsible for THEIR actions? Are you willing to give the "ganasta mentality" free reign?
If you answer YES to these questions then you are part of the problem, and not part of the solution.
On a side note my 357 is loaded with 7 shots of 38+p loads so recoil is not a real problem. I don't use the full potential of the magnum just because I DO KNOW how powerful the loads are. I actually took the time and learned about guns and have done my part to ensure that I am as good with it as I can be, and I am very much aware that I have a responsibility to the public. Unlike the "thug menality" I actually give a shit though! | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 1:22:47 PM |
do any of you believe that you have a right to protect yourself?
Why do 'punks, drug dealers, criminals carry weapons? To protect themselves. Most people who kill someone really did not mean to. It is just funny how it seems to happen.
Do you not hold the perpetrators responsible for THEIR actions?
Judge, jury, executioner, all rolled in one.
Are you willing to give the "ganasta mentality" free reign?
No. That is why we have police. | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 3:01:36 PM | Ok I know someone has likely already stated this but regarding guns.
"It's better to have one and not need it...than need one and not have it"
When a man can be stabbed to death in daylight on a public bus and then decapitated
whilst the others flee for their safety I've got to question the whole anti gun rhetoric. Had
there been ONE legal gun toting rider that young man would have kept his head and maybe
his life.
I do not own a gun now ..I've put it off for so long but I know I cannot expect a police officer to
be my first line of defense. They don't get paid enough to do that for the general public.
O | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 4:33:40 PM |
The reality of it is that only 1/2 of 1 percent (that's 0.5%) of ALL Americans will face a violent crime which endangers their personal safety or life at any given year.
While I presume this was made as an argument against the need for concealed carry, it is also an argument against the need for strict gun control laws. What fraction of a percentage of Americans will experience what the OP describes? | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 6:02:50 PM | I think a lot of you are working under a misconception.
There are not two sides to this issue, there are many. I am a concealed firearm permit owner who would like to see tighter restrictions on firearms. Certain ones though.
I live in Arizona. There are a variety of stores here that sell fully automatic weapons and usually have enough ammuntion in stock to hold of any advancing SWAT team for hours. While I do believe legally we should be allowed to own a firearm for defense, having an M - 60 is ridiculous. (This is a weapon that is usually mounted on military vehicles or a support weapon for squads of soldiers) It is capable of cutting someone in half in under a second.
I'm not afraid of the person who buys this weapon. I am rather wary of the person who steals this weapon, that is kept in a store, surrounded by the very thing that makes it dangerous. I don't care what you say, or what your views are, anybody can get into anywhere if they want to badly enough. This weapon should not be laying around waiting for any potential incident.
That being said, I am not preparing for the Apocalypse, I do not live under the constant fear that I will be grieviously assaulted or put into a situation where deadly force is necessary. I hope to I never am.
I have spent years training with a firearm with many of my friends who are police officers, Marines, and Special Forces trained individuals. I have been taught how to minimize collateral damage. I carry hollow point rounds that will dissipate the majority of their kinetic energy on the first item they hit. I've been trained how to avoid most confrontations by carrying a flashlight and being more alert to my surroundings. But no amount of training will make me impervious to attack. I know this makes me sound paranoid, but this is years of training with proffesionals talking.
I never use my firearm to make a point. I never pull it in case I plan on using it, and as I'm sure anyone reading this is aware, I can explain myself incredibly well and have a great command over the English langauge. I can talk my way out of most situations. I've stopped more then a few fights just by talking. But that being said, there may come a time when talking doesn't work. I would like to know there is something to fall back on when someone wants to try to stab or bludgeon me. However, I try to abscond from these situations, but there may come a time when it is inevitable.
The other reason I started carrying is that while the police do their job to serve and protect, they cannot be everywhere. As a trained individual, I feel it's my job to intervene in a possible hostile situation when health and hazard are threatened. Just because I don't have a badge doesn't mean I'm any less capabe of making a decision to help someone in a time of need.
But enough about that, I would like to ask a few rhetorical questions:
Why don't you like firearms?
Is it because they can kill?
Is it because they can help someone kill, or are used too frequently to settle arguments?
Is it that unless you have a badge, you shouldn't be allowed to make decisions that will effect yours, and possibly everyone around you, lives?
Or is it that untrained individuals shouldn't use lethal methods to defend themselves when tasers and mace are acceptable alternatives?
Last question first, there are no non-lethal ways to defend yourself. Spray mace or pepper spray into the face of the someone trying to take your car, just to find out he's asthmatic. Use a taser to stop someone from stabbing you and watch the electricity arc over their heart. Punch someone in the side of the face who is trying to hurt a loved one, and realize you've hit them in the temple and they aren't breathing. All of these can kill just as easily as a firearm. There are no non-lethal ways. That's why they are called less lethal. They can still kill.
But finally, I would like everyone to get this from my post: You can't have two sides to this argument. It isn't that simple. I think I have disproved that. You have to take in that there are people who lost children because of a stray bullet hitting them. These can be fired from a criminal, a police officer, a concealed firearm carrier, or anyone. There's four categories right there. There are people who believe it is there right to carry a pistol that are crazy and sane. That's six. There are people who have carried firearms in the line of duty, those who did it out of fear, and those who did it out of love for their country or family or themselves. That's nine categories, without me thinking of obscure factions or trying to figure them all out. I can guarentee you that no one person can understand every single aspect of this argument, and while they have their right to defend their side, I would like all of you to try and think of it from the other side's point of view. Because hopefully if we all could do that from time to time, we wouldn't need firearms for defense. Only to kill the evil aluminum cans... Which I promptly recycle afterwards.  | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 6:24:01 PM |
Why don't you like firearms?
Is it because they can kill?
Is it because they can help someone kill, or are used too frequently to settle arguments?
Is it that unless you have a badge, you shouldn't be allowed to make decisions that will effect yours, and possibly everyone around you, lives?
Or is it that untrained individuals shouldn't use lethal methods to defend themselves when tasers and mace are acceptable alternatives?
Those are elements for many but, the primary element for most (in my experience) is the overwhelming stupidity (and I don't mean intelligence but, lack of reasoned, rational thought) among so many 'antis' (as evidenced by the volume of posts that consist of some simple-minded 'bumpersticker slogan' as a rationale. Don't think about it, don't view it rationally, just fall back on trite, meaningless, 'feel good' sloganeering).
I don't know about you but, I don't want people who rely so heavily on emotionalism over rationalism to be anywhere near me with a firearm (my innocent bystander status is no shield from stupidity and I don't want to HAVE to have a gun just to protect myself from some other law-abiding citizen with no sense beyond "Yee-haw, Rambo time"). | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/17/2008 8:13:30 PM |
I don't know about you but, I don't want people who rely so heavily on emotionalism over rationalism to be anywhere near me with a firearm (my innocent bystander status is no shield from stupidity and I don't want to HAVE to have a gun just to protect myself from some other law-abiding citizen with no sense beyond "Yee-haw, Rambo time").
I'm totally with you on that one. But I don't think it's right to punish the many of us who do rationalize for the few people who do think that way...
Besides, when I went through my permit course, a few members of the class were dismissed with letters written to the local DPS stating that the instructor fervently believed these individuals never be issued a permit.
That sad part is that nothing like that is in place when you buy a gun, only when you get a permit. And in Arizona, you don't need a permit to carry a gun. You only need one if you plan on concealing it. | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/18/2008 1:56:23 AM | But I don't think it's right to punish the many of us who do rationalize for the few people who do think that way
Well, what about California and the stupid "hands-free" cell phone calling you need to make.Just a few stupid people who can't concentrate on their driving while on a cell phone now ruined it for everyone else who CAN or doesn't even talk much on the phone while driving.It's not where your hands are,it's where your mind is..they should ban talking in vehicles or hell, no riding with passengers or no radios to distract your thoughts.That is something the right-wing should come up with next. That's the new laws of the land, live with it..albeit ridiculous. | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/18/2008 8:43:46 AM |
I'm totally with you on that one. But I don't think it's right to punish the many of us who do rationalize for the few people who do think that way...
If the people who are most vocal about "standing up for the 2nd Amendment" use slogans to justify unsafe policies, and it leaves an impression that gun advocates in general are rabid idealogues without much sense, that is the impression they convey.
If you are a gun advocate who does not appreciate that impression, it is up to you to dispel it. It is not up to the rest of us to dismiss the impression that your allies give us.
But it was the NRA who came up with the most idiotic slogan ever coined, "guns don't kill people, people do." If that were the case then we wouldn't need to issue rifles to every soldier going off to war, now would we?
And let me ask you this: Is there anyone in the US Military who walks around on base with a gun that has not been checked out of a safe storage locker, and whose ammunition is not logged and accounted for? If the people whose profession is handling guns recognize that they are inherently dangerous, why can't you all?
Because, as with our STBE President, you believe that honestly admitting any point that might go against your position, even if that point is OBVIOUS, is taken as an admission of weakness--even if that point is TRUE.
But the issue of guns isn't about YOU, it's about SAFETY.
Are we safer with them or without them? That's the issue. And a responsible person won't care which way it falls out.
Personally, I believe that we'd all be safest if gun safety were taught in the schools--which are supposed to equip us to be informed and responsible citizens. Yet here is a right that we claim to cherish, and none of us knows enough about it to do anything more than sling absurd slogans at each other.
The stupidity of this entire debate is disgusting, and the fact that the debate hasn't advanced beyond, "yes they do no they don't" in the course of my lifetime is just ridiculous.
Why don't you all just shut the F up for a minute and think it through. Get _honest._ Guns are dangerous. So are ciminals. So are governments. How do we strike the right balance among these dangers to maximize our safety and that of our descendents? | |
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| Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/18/2008 9:44:33 AM | I don't have a problem with guns at all. I'd never support a ban on them, not even on handguns. Because of where I live, and the society I live in, I agree with the types of gun control laws we have here - and that's not possible in the same way there, for some very valid reasons.
Some say that handguns only exist to kill people. I disagree, and people do collect them or target shoot with them - which are valid reasons to own one.
Were I able to store a firearm at a gun club (I don't want one in my apartment) , I might own one too. I might even think of getting one if I lived in some remote area, where it might be needed for various good reasons.
I'm not even against the concealed carry laws there, believe it or not. 
I would feel a lot better if the training and level of expectation of all such legally armed citizens be a lot higher though. In my mind they should have a level of training ( and regular practical time on the range) that equals a peace officer - and be vetted to see if they meet a minimum standard of entry.
Their handguns should be fired, and a forensic sample kept on record for comparison.
They should be trained and tested on the law, and the legal use of their weapons. They should be regularly required to undergo testing sessions, and to spend time on the gun range firing from all possible positions, with both hands - night and day.
I'd throw in drug testing too, on a random basis.
In essence, I'd make them peace officers without badges, in the sense of knowledge of the law and the use of weapons.
Now are these things even possible down there, on a national/state level ?
I'm not sure they are, but it would sure make me feel a lot better about it.
What really throws me is when I see firearm owners who get aggressive on internet forums, and seem ( at least to me) to be looking forward to the day they finally shoot someone.
I'd feel better if they were the calmest people here, honestly.
You may have to kill someone to defend yourself, but I don't think that act (however justified it may be) is something to ever celebrate. | |
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