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Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea      Home login  
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 bear45408
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 201
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea Page 9 of 13    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13)
scherri states
I am for stricter gun control laws and don't see a reason for carrying a concealed weapon.
You have been both polite and one of the more vocal people on this thread on the side of stricter gun control. I came into this issue without an adgenda, and have so far found the facts to be against what you advocate.

If you really believe what you say, you ought to be able to persuade me with facts. I assure you that I will listen to actual statistics or real evidence.

Thanks.
 Scherri
Joined: 7/14/2008
Msg: 202
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/26/2008 2:32:28 PM
I am not hear to persuade anyone to believe as I do. I participate in the forum because it makes for decent discussions. I didn't come here to prove a point and try to sway people to think my way. These are my personal thoughts and opinions and I don't need to cite my opinion, which I never stated was a fact.
 printer2
Joined: 6/19/2007
Msg: 203
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/26/2008 4:03:50 PM


To sit there and say that "guns" make people "go bad" is ludicrous...

To say that I said 'that "guns" make people "go bad" is ludicrous...'. Way back when I posted that I used to shoot, I had handguns, but got rid of them because I developed wrist problems (I shot a lot). So I do not have a bias against guns nor do I think they are evil.

I just do not think the average person is well enough trained enough to carry one out in public, whether they took a course or not. Some people I used to shoot with have their carry permit for the US so I know about the training needed to get a permit.


Ignorance, laziness and lack of respect is what causes people to "go bad" And I do not disagree with this statement. But since some people are going to ‘go bad’ how do we combat it?

Now Americans and Canadians are really not all that different. We eat the same things, listen to the same music, our beer is better (sorry), but you people seem to kill each other much more than we do. Why is that? And is there any way to change that?

I am just guessing at what the cause may be. I am willing to hear others opinions on why things are like they are and what may need to change so people can walk the streets in safety. But what I hear is ‘It is my God given right to blow away scum’ which brings the other side to respond with ‘Who gave you the right to decide who lives and who dies.

I would like to feel as safe in the States as I do in Canada. Somehow I do not feel a bunch of people packing will change much. If that were the answer Mexico would probably be paradise.
 bikerguy45
Joined: 3/15/2007
Msg: 204
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History
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/26/2008 4:20:38 PM
i find this a very emotionally charged topic..i read an earlier post the writer said 'those people". i find that interesting because i am most definately one of those people..also interesting i have been an RN for about 30 years..i have never know of a gun of any kind to kill a person...i subscribe to the position that people pull the triggers & people kill people...oh, if thats cause to ban handguns surely u believe in banning cars, trucks booze & cigarettes cause they kill people as well !!!!????? i would suggest it's about personal responsibility !!!! nevermind the second amendment allows citizens to keep & bear !!! bikerguy
 eeeo4U
Joined: 6/25/2007
Msg: 205
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History
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/26/2008 5:07:11 PM
I think that as long as people, young people in the inner cities regardless of race or ethnicity have two examples to look at and some of course will pick the wrong one we are going to have dangerous cities.

You are a young man ( I say man because I am one and can relate better) growing up poor in the inner city. You may have only one responsible parent who may or may not be on public assistance. You see your teachers at school wearing WalMart clothes, driving used Chevies in which the air conditioning doesn't even work, barely able to afford dinner at McDonald's and you see honest police officers in the same state.

On the other hand there are gangbangers rolling around in their "fly rides" with chrome "dubs" , their high-powered stereos kicking out the latest gangsta rap. They don't seem to have anywhere to be except on this corner collecting their money. Instead of one nice, plain wife they have strings of the word Don Imus got fired for. And they didn't have to go to college or long training to have much more than the teachers and cops do...just outlast the competition and shoot faster. As long as there is this dichotomy, I'm glad the average citizen can protect him/herself.
 centraltxn08
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 206
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/26/2008 5:23:02 PM
Sure rage incidences are going to occur once in awhile but even if the person didn't have a gun they can certainly use their vehicle as a weapon. How about another scenario like if a woman is being followed by someone and forced off the highway, with a gun she might be able to defend herself, without who knows what will happen. Besides there are not enough police out there to handle every situation. Would you put your life at risk and hope that a cop shows up if there's trouble? This is a violent world my friend and having concealed carry laws has been proven to lower crime in many areas.
 Lostcauz
Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 207
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/26/2008 5:49:11 PM

To say that I said 'that "guns" make people "go bad" is ludicrous...'. Way back when I posted that I used to shoot, I had handguns, but got rid of them because I developed wrist problems (I shot a lot). So I do not have a bias against guns nor do I think they are evil.

I just do not think the average person is well enough trained enough to carry one out in public, whether they took a course or not. Some people I used to shoot with have their carry permit for the US so I know about the training needed to get a permit.

After being sent packing by the US Supreme Court, in the Heller case; where the Second Amendment to the US Constitution was upheld; the anti gun crowd starts a new thread, with a different angle of attack.

I agree, in part, with the above quoted statement. I do not think the average CANADIAN is well trained enough to carry a concealed weapon in public. Heck, even the Canadian Police don't carry thier guns when they're off duty.

Thankfully, the framers of the US Constitution saw fit to include a right to keep and bear arms as a right of private citizens, and that right has been affirmed by the US Supreme Court. That right, subject to reasonable regulation, includes the concealed carry of a handgun.

Given what I know of the training, and other requirements, involved in obtaining, and keeping a Concealed Carry Permit; I don't have any concerns at all with someone carrying a concealed weapon; if they have the proper permit.


Now Americans and Canadians are really not all that different. We eat the same things, listen to the same music, our beer is better (sorry), but you people seem to kill each other much more than we do. Why is that? And is there any way to change that?

There is a huge difference in Americans and Canadians; we are respectively citizens of very different countries, and live in significantly different cultures.

The matter of Americans killing each other more than Canadians may be a true statement at present. Given some time, I would imagine the numbers will grow closer together. Or maybe they won't.

I have been to Canada on several occasions; nice place, even in the dead of winter. Personally, I don't care for living in a Police State, I like having my personal freedoms, including that of private ownership of a gun, without having to ask the government for permission, or being told how to store it; and I am a former Police Officer.


I am just guessing at what the cause may be. I am willing to hear others opinions on why things are like they are and what may need to change so people can walk the streets in safety. But what I hear is ‘It is my God given right to blow away scum’ which brings the other side to respond with ‘Who gave you the right to decide who lives and who dies.

The law governing the use of deadly force gives someone the right to decide who lives and who dies; that's who. Put in simple terms, if I am in imminent fear of my life, or the life of a third person, and I have the ability to prevent an innocent from being killed; the person doing the threatening will very likely die. I have shot a lot for many years, and I still shoot a lot; I still seem to hit where I'm aiming as well.


I would like to feel as safe in the States as I do in Canada. Somehow I do not feel a bunch of people packing will change much. If that were the answer Mexico would probably be paradise.

Every state in the US that has passed Will Issue laws with respect to issuing private citizens Concealed Carry Permits, has seen a marked reduction in crime. These are statistics that are readily available from the Uniform Crime Report.

As I understand it, Mexico has much tighter gun control laws than Canada. The problme in Mexico is cultural; nearly everyone in goverment service is corrupt.
 dumberthanowlshit
Joined: 2/16/2007
Msg: 208
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/26/2008 5:52:20 PM
I would not live in any large city without my gun. Kansas City has a conceal and carry, and to date..nobody with a conceal and carry permit has hurt any law abiding person out of rage. However, there are car jackings, home invasions, armed robberies , and drive by shootings at about a clip of 2 a day. Recently..an elderly couple on a Saturday morning, about 9 AM, in a nice part of town..was using an ATM at an open bank. Some idiot was waiting for someone to pull up and approched there car with weapon in hand and demanded they give him money. They tried to just drive off, but he again threatened them...in which case the gentleman opened his door and put a round in the thugs head. The police showed up, let them get their cash from the ATM and sent them on their way. Thugs 0 Ctizens 1. week later...4 idiots invade a guy's home..hold him and a son hostage while they went outside and tried to break into his SUV to steal it..he grabbed the gangstas gun and shot him, then..went downstairs and retrieved his own gun and dropped 2 more of the ass.holes in the front yard. Thugs 0 Citizens 4..nice shooting!! You want to be a pacifist and let some itlliterate thug decide if you live or die while taking the things you work hard for?? Go for it. But I and many more, refuse to be victims. Any law abiding gun owner would welcome a mandatory 10 year sentence for carrying an illegal firearm, wouldn't hurt us a bit...because we obey the law.

And while our Canadian friends question our gun laws...I read this in an Edmonton newspaper.

**********"These homicides, gun-related homicides, are quite typically involving gangs, drugs, high-risk lifestyles," Staff Sgt. Chris Kluthe with the Edmonton police homicide unit said Wednesday. "Eight of those homicides that we did have ... were gang related. I think it's not just the gangs but those involved in the drug lifestyle as well, accessibility to guns all over the place," he added.

Most of the attacks are targeted against other criminals said Kluthe.

"The average citizen really doesn't have much to worry about."

Kluthe said police are concerned with the number of firearms that are available, especially among young people between the ages of 12 and 17, who are getting hold of them, mainly by robberies.***********

Ummm...yeah..you Canadian citizens have nothing to fear..those drug dealers and 12 to 17 year olds robbing people for guns won't shoot you..just each other...




And for you Canadians wondering why we kill each other more and why your gun laws are way better??? You have a population of 33 million IN YOUR WHOLE COUNTRY. California has around 37 million. LA is one of the most violent, even so...your comparisons should be to one state, do that and you will find that we are not that differant. Or combine 4 or 5 of our less urban states to fit your population and I would bet you are more violent.
 Scherri
Joined: 7/14/2008
Msg: 209
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 9:47:42 AM
I don't think most people choose to carry a concealed weapon because of some irrational paranoia of being victimized. There are probably numerous reasons people carry concealed weapons, fighting potential attackers is used often as a reason because people believe it puts up a good argument to support their cause.

A person may very well take a course and legally secure their permit to carry, but that does not imply they have the mental capacity to handle and operate a weapon.
 Smuggler1
Joined: 8/7/2008
Msg: 210
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 10:44:32 AM

I don't think most people choose to carry a concealed weapon because of some irrational paranoia of being victimized. There are probably numerous reasons people carry concealed weapons, fighting potential attackers is used often as a reason because people believe it puts up a good argument to support their cause.

A person may very well take a course and legally secure their permit to carry, but that does not imply they have the mental capacity to handle and operate a weapon


Spoken like someone that has NO idea of how to use, control, or maintain a weapon.

YOU are the very type of person that maybe shouldnt have a gun!

I would venture a guess, that most people who have CWP's, have both shooting and cleaning experience with the weapon they plan on carrying.

Its not something you just wake up one day, decide that you want to spend the money and time to sit through the classes, just so you can wave a piece of paper around merrily while dancing in the rain.... Please...
 maxxoccupancy
Joined: 2/5/2007
Msg: 211
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 11:00:57 AM
As a member of NHLA, we encounter the same problem in the NH State House. People become very emotional and start talking about the objects to be outlawed, rather than the law itself. The main reason that public support for gun control in America has evaporated is that gun control advocates have used so many emotional arguments, while gun rights advocates have been employing facts and logical arguments. Even, "I don't see why anyone would need to carry a gun..." doesn't pull any weight with me.

To the contrary, I've seen so many peaceful citizens targeted by gun enforcement, that it couldn't be worthwhile even if gun control reduced crime. Instead, cities, states, and countries that have disarmed their people have almost always seen rapid increases in violent crime. The weight of evidence shows that gun control laws cause nothing but problems.
 Scherri
Joined: 7/14/2008
Msg: 212
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 12:00:35 PM
Spoken like someone that has NO idea of how to use, control, or maintain a weapon.

YOU are the very type of person that maybe shouldnt have a gun!

I would venture a guess, that most people who have CWP's, have both shooting and cleaning experience with the weapon they plan on carrying.

Its not something you just wake up one day, decide that you want to spend the money and time to sit through the classes, just so you can wave a piece of paper around merrily while dancing in the rain.... Please...


I know how to use, control and maintain a weapon and also posses the mental capacity to have one. I was a registered gun owner and will probably acquire another peice in the near future. Sitting through a 8 hour class, which is how long it takes in MI feel free to correct me if I am wrong, gives you the legal ability to own a gun but does not necessarily mean one is mentally stable enough to own a weapon and to use it wisely.

Edit: the 8 hour class to acquire a CCW permit
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 213
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History
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 12:00:47 PM
There really is more to gun control than hitting what you aim at. It's also about knowing how to refrain from taking aim at illegitimate targets.

Both of those skills require training and practice. Until we provide universal training (which the founders assumed would be routinely done at home in their agrarian economy), we cannot presume that people know how to handle guns safely. And, if I can't count on my fellow citizens to handle a deadly weapon safely, I'm going to be rather reluctant to support them in having access to them. Call me a prude.

On the other hand, I would feel very comfortable knowing that all of the people around me are current in their training. It would make for a much more respectful society. It would also be more honest, because our lives really are in one another's hands.
 Smuggler1
Joined: 8/7/2008
Msg: 214
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 3:47:33 PM

necessarily mean one is mentally stable enough to own a weapon and to use it wisely


Depending on your school of thinking, one could question your state of mental stability...

as they could with mine, and the other hundred posters here... but if someone is willing to go through the class, spend the money, Im sure they have something on the ball...
 Sky at sunset
Joined: 12/20/2006
Msg: 215
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 3:53:42 PM
No one "needs" to carry a gun. Why would you want to?
 Smuggler1
Joined: 8/7/2008
Msg: 216
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 4:02:08 PM

No one "needs" to carry a gun. Why would you want to?


LOL...

No one needs to carry a gun?? really?? Well, then... lets just get all the cops, the military, secret service and anyone else to just hand them all in, and we'll see who takes over!!

LOL....

the "need" would be based on ones perspective/perception.

as for the "why" again... based on perspective/perception.

Usually Self Preservation/protection.
 Lostcauz
Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 217
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 4:12:05 PM

No one "needs" to carry a gun. Why would you want to?


I can cite 455 reasons why I "need" to carry a gun.

That is the number of people I put in jail, when I was a Police Officer. Nearly every one of them was not happy about having been arrested (some swore to get even), and put in jail; let alone, a vast majority of them having been sent to prison, some of those, for the second or third time.

Why would I want to carry a gun? There are rather basic reasons.

I may run into one of the 455 criminals that I arrested, and that person might just want to make good on getting even.

I have a family that relies upon my being able to work, and provide for them. Mama would be rather unhappy if I got hurt, or killed. You know, if Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy? I've promised Mama to do my very best to keep her as happy as I possibly can.

I've grown fond of breathing.

Criminals usually decide NOT to perpetrate crimes, when they have been confronted with equal force.

Merely the production of a gun, almost ALWAYS stops someone from whatever illegal activity they are engaging in.

I'm sure there are other, and better, reasons for carrying a gun as a private citizen. I'm sure the other posters here will add to the list.
 maxxoccupancy
Joined: 2/5/2007
Msg: 218
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History
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 4:54:34 PM
We entrust our neighbors with the power to use stoves which can cause dangerous fires, to drive cars that often kill people, to carry diseases that go untreated, and to vote for politicians who start wars, drive up health care costs, and redesign freeway interchanges for the worse. Governments all over the world wrongly imprison, torture, and murder their own people, yet we simply give our neighbor the right to vote crooks and sociopaths into office.

Of 83 million registered firearms owners, very few ever commit crimes with their firearms, but tens of thousands of crimes are prevented every year that the media never tells us about. Areas with high rates of firearm ownership tend to see lower violent crime rates.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 219
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History
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 5:07:56 PM
Stoves have safety interlocks. Drivers must get trained and licensed. Public safety officers can quarantine virulent disease carriers if necessary. We provide public education for virtually everyone for 12 years in the hope that they all will grow up to be informed voters and responsible citizens.

How is any of that inconsistent with the idea that a well-regulated militia requires that the citizen soldiers be _trained?_
 wolfs_blaze316
Joined: 7/22/2008
Msg: 220
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 5:26:41 PM
As i see it people need to look at a few states i live in WV we have concealed permits and when was the last time WV was in the national news for someone being murdered . Were as places like chicago and cali were certain citys banned citzens from using guns for personal protection there is murder everyday. i know i lived in charlotte nc for 6 months . if crimnals know a good citizen obeys the law are defenseless thus its like jackels over a dead body. so i say this.

If guns kill people , then
pencils miss spel words.
trucks make people drive drunk.
spoons make people fat.
matches cause arson.
 Lostcauz
Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 221
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 5:31:52 PM

Stoves have safety interlocks. Drivers must get trained and licensed. Public safety officers can quarantine virulent disease carriers if necessary. We provide public education for virtually everyone for 12 years in the hope that they all will grow up to be informed voters and responsible citizens.

How is any of that inconsistent with the idea that a well-regulated militia requires that the citizen soldiers be _trained?_

In Washington DC v Heller, the US Supreme Court ruled, quite clearly, that the right to keep and bear arms is an INDIVIDUAL right, and not a collective right.

The "well regulated militia" portion of the second amendment to the US Constitution, as determined by the US Supreme Court, is a statement of purpose, and not an operative phrase. Accordingly, the "well regulated militia" phrase, as it is used in the second amendment to the US Constitution, has no bearing on an individual's right to keep and bear arms, concealed, or otherwise.
 hdhawk1
Joined: 7/7/2007
Msg: 222
Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 5:59:06 PM
We all have a right to own guns, unless you have a criminal record that doesn't allow you to have guns anymore. There are always going to be stupid people out there, that do stupid things ! If you don't like the rights we have in this country, then go live in another country, and see how you like there rights ! I will never give up my guns !!
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 223
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 6:19:02 PM
And while our Canadian friends question our gun laws...I read this in an Edmonton newspaper.

**********"These homicides, gun-related homicides, are quite typically involving gangs, drugs, high-risk lifestyles," Staff Sgt. Chris Kluthe with the Edmonton police homicide unit said Wednesday. "Eight of those homicides that we did have ... were gang related. I think it's not just the gangs but those involved in the drug lifestyle as well, accessibility to guns all over the place," he added.


Edmonton.....sometimes called "Deadmonton" :innocent:

A huge amount of murders.........to a Canadian.


Edmonton's 2008 murder meter officially stands at 18 -- total metro area count stands at 24

In 2005, Edmonton set its all-time one-year murder record with 39 deaths, more than one every 10 days.

In 2007, the city recorded 33 murders.

There were 36 in 2006.

http://www.lastlinkontheleft.


Now look at how many people actually live there :


Population (2008 (city) 2007 (metro))
- City 752,412
- Density 1,099.4/km² (2,847.4/sq mi)
- Urban 862,544
- Metro 1,081,300
- Metro Density 109.9/km² (284.6/sq mi)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton


Almost three quarters of a million people live there, just in the city.

So far, in 2008, only 38 have been murdered. I think a review of the cases would show few if any ones where average people have been murdered by some criminal robbing them - or wanting to kill them.

That's roughly the same population density as Fort Worth, Texas, which has a population density of 2,178.09 per square mile.


One kilometer is equivalent to 1,000 meters or 0.62 miles


Fort Worth's homicide rate ?

The last numbers I found were for 2006 .........51 . The death penalty, CCW laws all over the state allowing handguns almost anywere including inside airports (up to the secure areas of them, at least), and a self defense law that allows you to shoot someone that isn't even a threat to your life - like someone robbing your house.

Still more murders, and more crime. If CCW laws actually reduced crime, then this would not be true.
 tacitus1
Joined: 10/12/2007
Msg: 224
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 6:42:50 PM
While you fish through media reports for the few examples of people with concealed carry permits that screw up, maybe you should contrast their numbers with the number of licensed drivers that killed someone with a car - most while drunk - and remember the oft used statement that gun control groups use that it should be as hard to get a gun as a it is to get a car. Hundreds dead on the roads each day in this country versus a small handful? I certainly think that people should have the ability to make life and death decisions for themselves. Perhaps you hold the generally liberal view that ordinary citizens aren't smart enough to make such a choice and therefore the government should take care of us - I disagree.

Why should a police officer risk his life to protect me, if I'm not willing to protect myself? And when I encounter a criminal who wishes to hurt me, what are the chances that a police officer will be there? The last time I had someone pull a knife on me and demand my money, it took nearly half an hour for a police officer to respond, and I live less than half a mile from a police precinct. It was the next day that an officer came by to take a report and photograph damage when someone tried to force his way into my house. What obligation do you suggest that I have to be a willing and passive victim in such cases?
 bigshrek
Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 225
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Concealed Carry Laws in Cities / Suburbs = Terrible Idea
Posted: 8/27/2008 10:06:57 PM
MG~ Fort Worth also has probably another 100,000-200,000 transient illegal immigrants running around there, so one would have to adjust for the extra people ;)

OP-I could EASILY post 500 instances of where having a CCW stopped a crime in progress in a city/urban area without a shot being fired, and another 500 where shots were fired and bad guys died. Florida has seen a HUGE improvement in quality of life due to CCW, 10-20-Life, and the Castle Doctrines being passed. We in Florida enjoy a slow but steady decrease in violent crime.

But there are going to be occasional idiots in even the BEST places. Take for example the Atlanta Police Gun Instructor who recently mixed up his live ammo with his blank ammo and shot a female student, killing her. It's not a perfect world. Humans are going to occasionally make mistakes. But the biggest mistake we could EVER make is to belive that Nero's way would ever work. It doesn't work in Chicago, it doesn't work in New York, it DEFINITELY doesn't work in Washington D.C. and it JUST DOESN'T WORK IN AMERICA!!!
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