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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/20/2008 8:05:20 PM | imho- Every one is entitled to be as tolerant or as less tolerant as suits them. We all have
our likes and dislikes in life.
No one owes anyone else any reason why. | |
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Joined: 6/5/2008
Msg: 27 | |
| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/20/2008 9:54:24 PM | RWW
You Onchy or anyone else as an observer…with the medium used allows you to follow the thread with compassion (empathy lol) …..how is it that you as observers tolerate all that you observe without wanting to intervene to create some understanding?
What are you asking? Are you suggesting that I or others are to intervene in disputes in the forums? If so, that is the role of the moderators. I have on occasion commented in a thread in an effort to, as you put it, "create some understanding". It is not an obligation I have.
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Some posters argue that some of the problems in the world are due to arrogance, not intolerance.
According to wikipedia arrogance is excessive pride or hubris. I've copied and pasted below some of information for pride, hubris, intolerance and tolerance. Perhaps these will be useful in considering this topic.
Pride
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride
Pride is a lofty view of one's self or one's own. Pride often manifests itself as a high opinion of one's nation (national pride), ethnicity (ethnic pride), or appearance and abilities (vanity). Pride is considered a negative attribute by most major world religions, but some philosophies consider it positive. The opposite of pride is humility.
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Hubris
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris
Hubris, sometimes spelled hybris (ancient Greek ὕβρις), is a term used in modern English to indicate overweening pride, self-confidence, superciliousness, or arrogance, often resulting in fatal retribution. In ancient Greece, hubris referred to actions which, intentionally or not, shamed and humiliated the victim, and frequently the perpetrator as well. It was most evident in the public and private actions of the powerful and rich. The word was also used to describe actions of those who challenged the gods or their laws, especially in Greek tragedy, resulting in the protagonist's downfall.
Hubris, though not specifically defined, was a legal term and was considered a crime in classical Athens. It was also considered the greatest sin of the ancient Greek world. That was so because it was not only proof of excessive pride, but also resulted in violent acts by or to those involved. The category of acts constituting hubris for the ancient Greeks apparently broadened from the original specific reference to mutilation of a corpse, or a humiliation of a defeated foe, or irreverent "outrageous treatment" in general.
The meaning was eventually further generalized in its modern English usage to apply to any outrageous act or exhibition of pride or disregard for basic moral laws. Such an act may be referred to as an "act of hubris", or the person committing the act may be said to be hubristic. Atē, ancient Greek for "ruin, folly, delusion," is the action performed by the hero, usually because of his/her hubris, or great pride, that leads to his/her death or downfall.
Modern times
In its modern usage, hubris denotes overconfident pride and arrogance; it is often associated with a lack of knowledge combined with a lack of humility. An accusation of hubris often implies that suffering or punishment will follow, similar to the occasional pairing of hubris and nemesis in the Greek world. The proverb "pride goes before a fall" is thought to sum up the modern definition of hubris. In reference to someone being in hubrity: hubrity is a fulfillment of being hubristic or a continual behavior of being prideful. Victor in Mary Shelley's Frankenstein exudes hubris in order to become a great scientist, but is eventually regretting this previous desire. Faustus in Christopher Marlowe's play Dr. Faustus exudes hubris, all the way until his final minutes of life.
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Intolerance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intolerance
Intolerance is an antonym to "tolerance".
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Tolerance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolerance
Toleration and tolerance are terms used in social, cultural and religious contexts to describe attitudes and practices that prohibit discrimination against those practices or group memberships that may be disapproved of by those in the majority. Conversely, intolerance may be used to refer to the discriminatory practices sought to be prohibited. Though developed to refer to the religious toleration of minority religious sects following the Protestant Reformation, these terms are increasingly used to refer to a wider range of tolerated practices and groups, such as the toleration of sexual practices and orientations, or of political parties or ideas widely considered objectionable.
The principle of toleration is controversial. Liberal critics may see in it an inappropriate implication that the "tolerated" custom or behavior is an aberration or that authorities have a right to punish difference; such critics may instead emphasize notions such as civility or pluralism. Other critics, some sympathetic to traditional fundamentalism, condemn toleration as a form of moral relativism. On the other hand, defenders of toleration may define it as involving positive regard for difference or, alternately, may regard a narrow definition of the term as more specific and useful than its proposed alternatives, since it does not require false expression of enthusiasm for groups or practices that are genuinely disapproved of.
Intolerance is an antonym to "tolerance".
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Xavery
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Joined: 4/22/2007
Msg: 28 | |
| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/20/2008 10:03:58 PM | ^ wow - great info. I didn't understand the question either and I think I fall into the category of observer. It is good clarification was sought.
Recently, I was reading about the views the Ancient Greeks had on Hubris. To the Gods, it was the worst sin of all. It led me to write the pride comes before the fall.
What I have found interesting as I have read through these posts is the idea that some actions should not be tolerated at all, like child abuse. I totally agree, so I guess at times I am intolerant, too. | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/20/2008 10:51:57 PM |
What are you asking? Are you suggesting that I or others are to intervene in disputes in the forums? If so, that is the role of the moderators. I have on occasion commented in a thread in an effort to, as you put it, "create some understanding". It is not an obligation I have.
Your exactly right Onchy! It is not an obligation you choose to take. I find the same issue with your post, you can throw out the issues that make for a great debate as you did with this thread but your neither here nor there. Your extremely careful in your approach, at the same time, I see your attempt more contemptuous as you don’t approach it with a personal view. Stop prodding and stand for something or don’t stand at all (lol).
They repeat themselves and try to present their opinion in every conceivable way they can, generally with little success in convincing the POF masses.
You tolerate the behavior knowing it does not change your world. What you observed above is more acceptable in your eyes (why intervene as you enjoy what your observing because you are tolerant).
There use to be a poster here that helped clarify a position from what he perceived making ideas clear ~ he definitely had credibility in anything he had to say. I miss his interjections as he has since become cynical in his approach and somewhat indifferent which I find sad….
Back to the topic:
When I made reference to the internet:
Look into the articles of tolerance and intolerance before you use them as a way of interpreting events in these forums.
What I see in the forums is general acceptance of what one has to say and the safety to write what needs to be said. Posting in forums does not mean there are sides to a debate but more personal opinions expressed about a topic. People are more then likely to disagree and that is fine. What I have a problem with is the fact that because I view myself as somewhat opinionated and post, you might view it as one of tolerance or intolerance on around a topic ~ ~~~~~blah blah and so on…. | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/20/2008 10:52:46 PM | (That's a lot of definitions.)
I was thinking "to tolerate" basically meant "to put up with". Such as, "I could tolerate being in the same room with the jack*ss because he wasn't talking to me at the time."
I suspect some people are thinking "to tolerate" means "to accept", which is entirely different.
Is there a difference between 'tolerate' (the verb) and 'tolerant' (the adjective)? Are they not basically the same principle?
There are many things we put up with/tolerate in our daily lives, either because they are irrelevant or trivial, like idiot drivers and loud cellphone talkers. We don`t have to embrace them.
Other people can express their opinions - we can read them, agree or disagree, but have no obligation to accept them. | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/20/2008 10:58:13 PM |
What are you asking? Are you suggesting that I or others are to intervene in disputes in the forums? If so, that is the role of the moderators. I have on occasion commented in a thread in an effort to, as you put it, "create some understanding". It is not an obligation I have.
Your exactly right Onchy! It is not an obligation you choose to take. I find the same issue with your post, you can throw out the issues that make for a great debate as you did with this thread but your neither here nor there. Your extremely careful in your approach, at the same time, I see your attempt more contemptuous as you don’t approach it with a personal view. Stop prodding and stand for something or don’t stand at all (lol).
They repeat themselves and try to present their opinion in every conceivable way they can, generally with little success in convincing the POF masses.
You tolerate the behavior knowing it does not change your world. What you observed above is more acceptable in your eyes (why intervene as you enjoy what your observing because you are tolerant).
There use to be a poster here that helped clarify a position from what he perceived making ideas clear ~ he definitely had credibility in anything he had to say. I miss his interjections as he has since become cynical in his approach and somewhat indifferent which I find sad….
Back to the topic:
When I made reference to the internet:
Look into the articles of tolerance and intolerance before you use them as a way of interpreting events in these forums.
What I see in the forums is general acceptance of what one has to say and the safety to write what needs to be said. Posting in forums does not mean there are sides to a debate but more personal opinions expressed about a topic. People are more then likely to disagree and that is fine. What I have a problem with is the fact that because I view myself as somewhat opinionated and post, you might view it as one of tolerance or intolerance around a topic ~ ~~~~~ | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/20/2008 11:29:41 PM | The word "tolerant" implies putting up with.
Which implies caring what other people do.
I'm not tolerant or intolerant. I feel that each individual knows what is right for THEM
and that there is no one right way to live.
I also find it both amusing and frightening at how angry people get on the forums....it's as if they don't realize that other people's choices do not have to influence their personal reality....
eww, my cat just threw up a piece of mouse. gotta go. | |
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Joined: 6/5/2008
Msg: 33 | |
| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/21/2008 9:28:20 AM | RWW ^^^ Msg 31
Let me preface I have no desire to be baited into online public drama. My mail settings are liberal. I will however respond this time.
What are you asking? Are you suggesting that I or others are to intervene in disputes in the forums? If so, that is the role of the moderators. I have on occasion commented in a thread in an effort to, as you put it, "create some understanding". It is not an obligation I have. Your exactly right Onchy! It is not an obligation you choose to take. I find the same issue with your post, you can throw out the issues that make for a great debate as you did with this thread but your neither here nor there. Your extremely careful in your approach, at the same time, I see your attempt more contemptuous as you don’t approach it with a personal view. Stop prodding and stand for something or don’t stand at all (lol).
Same issue? Your accusation is ludicrous. You cannot equate my choice to comment or not comment on some issue in a forum with my not sharing in the original post how I evaluate myself on being tolerant or intolerant. If you were asking me to share that you could have asked in far less words. One short sentence would suffice. Concise writing with clarity, while challenging, has its merits.
So....
I believe myself to tolerant, more so than many. I make great effort to see all sides of an issue. I consider how I would feel and what choices and decisions I might make from that perspective, and how I could accept the consequences of such decisions. I believe I have demonstrated that recently in the Abortion and the Married Men Married Women threads and others.
Of course there are some things I do not tolerate well. They include cruelty, disrespect (to me, my friends and my world), and being needlessly inconvenienced. For this I do not apologize for I am human and have emotions. That said I continue strive to achieve my goals of tolerance and compassion.
I note your accusation of being contemptuous. I am however so tolerant I will let it pass.
I do not have a "chip on my shoulder". There are I believe some posters who do have issues and do bear a shoulder chip or two. I recall one poster who bravely admitted in a post to having a chip on their shoulder, I think it was in April or May 2008.
They repeat themselves and try to present their opinion in every conceivable way they can, generally with little success in convincing the POF masses. You tolerate the behavior knowing it does not change your world. What you observed above is more acceptable in your eyes (why intervene as you enjoy what your observing because you are tolerant).
Gibberish based on your assumptions. While you have the right to believe what you like please accept the obligation to recognize your beliefs are not necessarily reality. I may choose to not to contribute to a topic for a variety reasons which may include that I cannot relate to the topic or merely have no interest in the topic. I might be busy writing to a hawt fishie who wants to meet for a date.... and that has higher priority than forums.
There use to be a poster here that helped clarify a position from what he perceived making ideas clear ~ he definitely had credibility in anything he had to say. I miss his interjections as he has since become cynical in his approach and somewhat indifferent which I find sad….
I have no idea who you might be referring to but my time in the pond is considerably shorter than yours, so it is likely I didn't witness the earlier contributions that poster may have made.
With respect to people changing how and what they contribute to the forums, I can certainly understand and relate. All too often we observe someone make a post with good intent, without any malice. Much to their surprise and dismay a snarling pack of wolves chews the poster and the thread or post to bits. Sometimes the poster is hardly heard from again, if ever. Other posters develop tougher hides, one that a rhino would be proud of, and remain in the forums. They continue to contribute to forums, sometimes with popular threads, sometimes they fizzle, and yet they persevere, with my admiration. That is life in the forums.
RWW, in conclusion, I choose to contribute to the forums, with mixed success. I take encouragement from online and private comments. I don't profess to have the memory of a bear trap, but I do not recall seeing a thread you started.
Again, I have no desire to be baited into online public drama. My mail settings are liberal.
Respectfully
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/21/2008 10:18:30 AM | I find that my level of tolerance has been changing as I age.
I find I am much more tolerant in some areas (anything where I understand I have little to no abilty to change things) and less tolerant in matters that I have some impact and control.
I think a lot of this is due to an understanding and acceptance of who I am and what I believe I know (almost what I feel is a right of passage).
I will not expound on how I feel I have come to my knowledge base, but I will say that I think I am fairly liberal and understanding, and willing to take time to learn as much as I can about a situation before I deal with it. I may choose tolerance as a tool to deal with a situation or I may purposely chose to be intolerant in my dealing with it. The choice is MINE and I accept responsibility for it either way it may play out. | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/21/2008 11:31:48 AM | Getting less tolerant of those that keep quoting forum rules...There are moderators in POF and only those with that title should be assessing postings, threads or whatever situation comes up.
I think from all the postings on this thread we can determine that everyone has their point of view, everyone has their own level of tolerance and their own point of view whether you agree or not.
And it's not the job of posters to try and intervene to regulate messages from others in here. | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/21/2008 12:53:13 PM | I'm tolerant at times and intolerant at others. Depends - have I had my coffee yet? It also depends on the topic. Still - towards others I like to be open to what they say. It makes getting to know people much easier, don't you think? Even in the forum world.
Good read kids.... keep on posting! | |
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Xavery
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Joined: 4/22/2007
Msg: 38 | |
| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/21/2008 4:23:09 PM | As for posts about intervening and policing one another, well, that is just rubbish!
I am not brother's keeper. I find when posters try enforce the rule and/or lead others to be a certain way, it just adds fuel to the fire.
Parts of this thread have become confusing. It is like the thread has become a dumping ground for people with issues and hidden agendas.
In forum life, I need to be more tolerant of people who just dont come straight out and say what they mean. It really is important to communicate clearly. Perhaps, I am confusing tolerance with patience. | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/21/2008 7:43:13 PM |
RWW, in conclusion, I choose to contribute to the forums, with mixed success. I take encouragement from online and private comments. I don't profess to have the memory of a bear trap, but I do not recall seeing a thread you started.
Again, I have no desire to be baited into online public drama. My mail settings are liberal.
Checkmate!
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Joined: 6/5/2008
Msg: 41 | |
| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/26/2008 9:27:58 PM | Reflecting on a recent experience, when I observed in youths some behaviour that I, and many others, consider unacceptable, I am compelled to think of tolerance.
In many ways our society has become too tolerant. We turn a blind eye to things our parents and grandparents would have never permitted to continue.
As well as putting ourselves at personal risk when we intervene, I think another element that discourages us is the risk of being named in a lawsuit.
Admittedly our American cousins are more apt to resort to lawsuits that Canadians but their culture influences ours.
Rather than get involved many of us tolerate what we disagree with. Some do not tolerate and so may suffer severe consequences.
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/26/2008 9:46:51 PM | In case people have forgotten there has been one post here that speaks to the topic as it should be seen......
But it seems everyone sees past....
OR you have written a thread topic which doesn't make me cringe, well done.
Tolerance, or the lack thereof, is just a symptom of a greater issue. People generally show a lack of tolerance when they do not trust, or even fear, something. This can take on many forms, culture, religion or even societal differences (say Vancouver v Toronto). Change is perhaps the most powerful thing a person can face, and can instill fear in most anyone.
Education leads to the increase of understanding and familiarity with something someone may fear. This in turn helps dispel fear. However, education requires a willing mind to absorb the knowledge. It is a bit of a catch 22 when facing a person who is fearful of something, and does not want to be educated to help alleviate this fear, or worse views education with skepticism, hearing only what they wish and turning that into negativity.
One really needs to address themselves, say by applying the same "lack of tolerance" one may apply to another, to oneself (ok, you don't need to, do what you want, but try it sometime). When you paint yourself in the same light you portray others, you might find deeper understanding to your fear, or lack of tolerance.
I would go so far as to challenge one to remove "tolerance" and "non-tolerance" from their vocabulary. Why should I tolerate something? Why can I either enjoy or not enjoy it? If I do not like something, then I can change my situation, and if I do like, it,well, no worries. Through education and exploration one is able to understand the world around them and embrace it.
There is a greater issue where one finds themselves the target of non-tolerance, as it is harder to educate someone from that position. That should not prevent someone from attempting to try if they feel strong enough to do so. Otherwise they can change their own situation (without fear, ladies and gentlemen).
The greatest issue man faces is fear of himself.
Ok, maybe not, but that makes a great quote.
To the OP, I don't have time for tolerance, as you may have guessed.
Some forget the obvious
some see what was never there
but never forget
that some do see, to bad the rest have chosen to look past this post.
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/26/2008 10:24:29 PM | Some forget the obvious
some see what was never there
but never forget
that some do see, to bad the rest have chosen to look past this post.
Totally agree truth! Seems the narrowing of the senses happen when people come to their defense.....
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Joined: 6/5/2008
Msg: 44 | |
| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/26/2008 10:33:03 PM | It seems there are some people who take perverse pleasure in their efforts to be thread killers.
I am reminded by their behaviour of goats. When goats have their fill of food they piss on it so no one else wants to eat what is left over.
If these intolerant people don't have anything to contribute to the thread maybe they should not post. | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/26/2008 10:50:33 PM | I think that the whole idea of what tolerant and the less-tolerant actually means.
It is one thing to have an opinion and to share and discuss it, to read others opinions and thoughts and to challenge their point of view.
I think it is entirely another to state an opinion and without using so many words to say that others are wrong.
Far too often people fail to see the common ground they share and instead seem to focus on what makes them different.
"In school the showed us a picture of 5 oranges and 1 apple. They asked us which one was different and didn't belong. They taught us that different is wrong" | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/26/2008 11:10:03 PM | ^^^How fortunate for you not to be a thread killer!
Being tolerant of other's intolerance insofar as they carry some legitimate opinion, meritorious or not, it is better to be belligerently wrong than placidly indifferent. It would be a stupendous feat of faulty logic or an abundant over use of discretion to give the same weight to bad opinions as good ones! As a further good habit, it should be the moral duty of every self respecting citizen to endeavor to discover whether by hap instance, tom foolery of plain old fashioned run of the mill stupidity what it is that that means. | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/27/2008 3:45:03 PM | | What you might see as being intolerant some one else may call to have a passion towards.When people have a passion to an ideal,they want to change things,this is what brought about the civil rights movement,and the Vietnam war protests. | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/27/2008 5:20:02 PM | I want to ask a question. This is for readers here to answer, but I would suggest thinking about the answer before typing out your immediate thoughts.
Can tolerance ever be purely positive?
I am sure some of you jumped to saying yes, however, I would challenge you to think about this for a bit.
Tolerance suggests that something negative is impacting your being, but you allow it to persist. Non-tolerance suggests the same, however, you attempt to stop it full force. Why would someone "tolerate" something that was negative? Can you "tolerate" something that is positive?
Something that is negatively impacting your life will only do so if you allow it to. Although this might challenge some of you, I would suggest that there is never a need to tolerate negativity (be it physical, mental or spiritual). You can accept it for what it is, and then position yourself in a manner that is comfortable for you. If you cannot accept it, then perhaps one should be investigating oneself to understand why.
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This is part of a larger topic, which I touched on in my previous post. I do not feel that this is necessarily the appropriate venue for me to flex my opinions as at least one person misunderstood what I was stating. However, I do feel it appropriate to challenge the minds of those around me to think more deeply on subjects, and this was a suitable subject to talk on.
If we can help raise the lowest common denominator, then the world will be a better place. | |
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