| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/13/2009 5:16:11 PM |
I think certain types of intolerance are fear based.
Through exposure we learn that we are more alike than unlike.
Now that thought is scarey! | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/13/2009 6:27:24 PM | Might be scarey to you BE, but I think Jane has hit on an absolute fact!  We "can" tend to be fearful of what we know little or nothing about. At least in some cases. So I agree with JaneSays. I actually see this everyday with clients, and it's so much easier when we recognize the fear in others. Can ease their fear and anxiety. This in turn, allows for tolerance and understanding. BUT, on a lighter note, fear can also lead us to that all important "it's 5:00 oclock somewhere" attitude! LOL | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/13/2009 9:38:06 PM | Yup that is the going theory anyway but I recall a study done in Canada that explored prejudice and the opposite was true. Those people who lived the closest to minority non-white groups were the most intolerant and prejudiced than those who lived at a greater distance from minority groups.
Who'd have thunk it? Seems the more we are exposed to and thus understand alternate cultures - the LESS we like them.
?? (Don't flame me - I didn't make it up, honest! I hate prejudice, honest!) | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/13/2009 10:00:08 PM | Yup, Debra, you are so right! But...if we can get even one at a time, out of that group, and show understanding, empathy, and non-prejudice, thus persuading even one person at a time, to re-think their ideals/values/opinions....we have had a successful day. Ya, okay, maybe I'm being an idealist....but I prefer to think this way. And I have seen it work. I hate prejudice, of any kind, but to change, it starts with ONE.
And no, I'm NOT perfect. I have my moments, but prefer to see things from a big picture, and from a positive standpoint. After 21 years in my business, it's ingrained! LOL
No flaming Debra...just kudos for honesty!!!!! | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/13/2009 10:14:39 PM | All of the above makes sense, and I have seen it work in some cases, how people become more tolerant with exposure.
I wonder if there is a "gene" or if it's a soul disposition to be intolerant.
Being of a very mixed race and background myself, I am all in favor of "unity in diversity", and raised my bunch of kids that way. Yet, no matter what I've done, taught and exposed them to some of them are reluctant and one of them even hateful/intolerant towards anyone different, especially racially.
I really don't get it. It seems that I have more questions than answers about this.
MN | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/13/2009 10:21:12 PM | Sometimes MediaNaranja, no matter what we try, we cannot change someone's view. I think you are right, it's a "gene"...in these cases, I have no idea how to approach. Except to continue to put forth positive..with the hope that eventually, some positive "rubs" off. Reiterate...reinforce...remind. We can not force someone to see things different. I hope your reluctant one someday sees from Mom's view!  | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/13/2009 11:17:21 PM |
]Yup that is the going theory anyway but I recall a study done in Canada that explored prejudice and the opposite was true. Those people who lived the closest to minority non-white groups were the most intolerant and prejudiced than those who lived at a greater distance from minority groups.
Who'd have thunk it? Seems the more we are exposed to and thus understand alternate cultures - the LESS we like them.
I would love to hear more about where you got your facts from Debra! Wow who would have thought eh?
Actually the same can be true for the minority being intolerant of the majority. My facts would come from primary sources.
YEah ...who would have thunk it... | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/13/2009 11:34:45 PM | ye'ah or ya? just curious. You have spoken of your grandfather often, and he sounded like such an interesting soul.
I think I am a fairly tolerant person most of the time; there are some exceptions though. | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/14/2009 9:09:08 AM | Yabba it is what it is Yeah…or YEah? I don’t give a hoot about spelling…I think you need to know that…
I noticed you made reference to my grandfather…yes he was tolerant…extremely tolerant…. he knew the fine line of what racism was and when to leave it be when the arrogance was so thick you could cut with a knife. I often think about what made him so wise or extremely patient when it came to people so foreign (racism/my thoughts). His beliefs were so strongly imbedded in the philosophy of our people which in essence is about humility.
IF as in if Yabba, I was to use tolerant as a preferred usage…I am not a tolerant person. | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/14/2009 10:53:46 AM | This is a great topic for discussion. I wish I had the time to read all the posts, many are informative, well written and contain valuable philosophy, some are a waste of time while others have a tone of sarcasm. All typical of POF members. There is a time for both, tolerance and intolerance. What I have witnessed is that the appropriateness is often backwards. Such as; there is way too much tolerance towards child molesters, there should be none. There is way too much tolerance for drunk driving, there should be none. There is way too much tolerance towards police corruption, there should be none. If I sound intolerant maybe we should ask those that were molested as a child, or were hit by a drunk driver or were incarcerated wrongly.
I think I am relatively tolerant, I listen to other's point of views and respect their beliefs and opinions. I believe that solutions can be reached through intelligent discussion and through democratic principals. But, I do walk away when someone tries to impose their views on me in an overbearing manner. Maybe it is pride that becomes the barrier. Don't get me wrong, pride has it's place, in one's work, appearance, family and education to name a few, but we don't need a nation of boastful bully narcissists.
You would think we have learned from history, what the settlers did, some in the name of religion and other for pure greed. Sadly the lessons are still being taught.
Just my opinion. | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/14/2009 11:13:00 AM |
Yabba it is what it is Yeah…or YEah? I don’t give a hoot about spelling…I think you need to know that… It wasn't really the spelling just the way it was typed. My Ex's parents lived in Glen Vowel, ye'ah means grandfather there. It was kind of funny being he was from Italy. I tried to teach my kids to call him nono but, I was told they should just use ye'ah like all the other kids... or it would get confusing.  | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/14/2009 12:23:32 PM | ^^^^^Interesting I never thought of the meaning of Yeahin other cultures when I typed the word….but took your reference to my use of the English Language which I’ve been called on (grammar and spelling) here in past forums.
The meaning of Ye’ah has also come to my attention by some close friends of Git’ksan descent - the meaning of the same word in my language means lice. ..lol.
Git’ksan and Wet’suwe’en cultures are very distinct and separate cultures and yet have lived along side each other with respect for centuries…as a side note, neither cultures have ever saw use for a like term of tolerance when working with each other.
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/14/2009 12:32:27 PM |
I think certain types of intolerance are fear based, said I.
Through exposure we learn that we are more alike than unlike, said I.
Now that thought is scarey,said someone.
^I call this being intolerant of another poster's view.
Thanks to all of you who took my post seriously and are able to discuss this subject.
From personal experience, I know that through being exposed to people from other cultures, my respect for these cultures has increased. The thing that I personally find most interesting is the spiritual believes of people from different cultures.
I have been very fortunate to work in multicultural settings for most of my career. It has changed me for the better and I would say the same is true for my colleagues.
To be honest, many of us grew up when Vancouver was a a Waspy sort of city. Some of us were small minded. How fast we changed and adapted.
I love living in a multicultural city. I hear Toronto is the most multicultural city in Canada, but Vancouver is right up there. | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/14/2009 11:50:16 PM | One study does not "the facts" make , remember, but the source in this case is a study that was referred to in an article in MacLeans many many years ago if I recall it correctly - so...not the source but probably searchable from there. Could have been either different sections of Toronto - highly multicultural areas of town vs less or as I believed when I originally posted, high multi-cultural areas of all the country (I do remember Toronto though).
Yeah I was shocked by the outcome and my recollection seems to be that the researchers were also surprised as the theory they thought they would prove would have been the one generally believed in here on this thread.
I also have been exposed to different cultures while growing up - as a guest in other countries and forgive me to those I might offend but have also noticed greater tolerance amongst people who have moved around here within Canada as compared to Native whateverers (meaning cities and provinces - not First Nations people whom I respect but do not revere as all cultures have their good and bad parts) so this is a particularly bad run-on sentence but my point is that I wonder if the difference is when we are visiting or when we arrive as a minority from somewhere else and learn about the other culture versus when the person of a minority moves into our own community and we learn from them that way.
And...I really think that is hitting the nail on the head. Despite in Canada a reluctance to become the US melting pot, perhaps that is more desirable and more wanted by us than we thought. | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/15/2009 10:14:40 AM |
You know Debra, I am thankful for your above response. I truly was assaulted with your previous to last post( #133).
I was impacted in such a way that your facts were written as a truth and you supported the thinking by emphasizing with (LESS) capital letters in your last sentence (#133). If this latter assumption was not the truth, you sensed there might be some difficulty with what you typed by also making point of the following:
?? (Don't flame me - I didn't make it up, honest! I hate prejudice, honest!
In the end I don’t care to know if anyone is prejudiced/ tolerated or not or whatever led them to that belief…. when it personally assaults me…I do have to say something.
I found what you typed also supported the thinking of prejudice / tolerance by your comments about a eulogy to IAM007 disappearance in message #127. You might respect my thinking that he is respected by myself rather than making fun of the facts with a Eulogy.
There are times (nicorette or not) that some people here think they speak for all when certain questions are posed in the way they are alike by their thinking - Like there is some undisclosed communal thought everyone is to confirm with the OP (or other situations outside this community) …itSHOULD not be the case regardless how minor the assumption is.
Leaving message #133 as a thought on its’ own gives or sends a message. These outright assumed beliefs you think to be true only displays more about your character rather than a general thought. When I hear unfinished or poorly thought out arguments - they do more harm than good to me as a person of a different culture as well as a minority.
I have never stated a belief sourced from others thinking without giving it credibility by naming the source. I strongly advise that your belief of - more awareness of another’s culture creating more prejudice - be sourced with more of an opinion from yourself like you did in your last post happen more often. The facts are this is a multicultural society - what I read initially was offensive.
not First Nations people whom I respect but do not revere as all cultures have their good and bad parts
There is no such thing as bad parts when it comes to culture. There might be practices that are questionable for you …but not for that culture.
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/15/2009 7:35:03 PM | My first post clearly refers to the study, rather than my own previously held beliefs. My current belief on this debate is that we need to explore this further before I can make a conclusion.
Regarding citations, I'm not paid to be a teacher and I'm not a student looking for grades. And um. This is not a scholarly journal.
My point in posting is that we have a better shot at minimizing the harmful effects of prejudice and intolerance when we are unafraid to examine human nature in all its glory and, yes, bad parts, whether the facts or characteristics or snapshots we take from that examination suit us (i.e., they fit with our idealized version of how things ought to be) or not. That goes for an examination of cultures as well.
If anyone feels offended by my posts, simply put an imaginary IMHO before every message of mine you read. (I thought it went without saying.)
And I feel that my opinion on Mr. Eulogized is equally deserving of respect as anyone else's. And a post about one person is against the rules. So is a message about one person.
And whereas I do so hate treating a person differently because they are of a minority group, I admit that I edited a portion of this message to avoid further misunderstandings only because I am responding to posters of a minority group. I wish I didn't feel it necessary to do so.
No worries. | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/15/2009 7:49:39 PM |
And whereas I do so hate treating a person differently because they are of a minority group, I admit that I edited a portion of this message to avoid further misunderstandings only because I am responding to posters of a minority group. I wish I didn't feel it necessary to do so.
Acknowledged... | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/15/2009 7:57:13 PM | What I know from living in many, MANY cultures (I am talkiing world wide) is that there seems to be a primal wiring that results in those who have a group of those they identify with culturally near them, in their corner so to speak, is that they regard anyone different (language, appearance, life occupation etc) as suspect and a threat. Particularly if they stand alone.
I can offer an open mind and a helpful loving heart, which I have, but unless I am from the clan who is in the majority, none of that matters and I am treated as "other than"
and often "less than". I am not speaking in theory or philisophically, I am speaking from extensive experience.
I don't agree with this treatment and I don't exhibit it myself when in the company of someone different than myself. I like differences, I WILL resist them when they are pushed on me in an intrusive way in an inappropriate setting, otherwise, I think they make the world what it is and as an artist, uniqueness in anyone or anything is particularly appealing to my "wiring" for as long as I can remember.
I thought everyone thought this way until I was taught differently by some very forcefull, bullying and intimidation, that I witnessed passed from generation to generation( as it often is) that never let up and only increased until I removed myself and my family from the environment. I extended my hand, communicated and invited communication till I had no more to give, to no avail.
Innate instincts from a long ago, necessary "jungle mentality" around "different" are a powerful thing
and for the most part I have conceeded, eventually, to defeat in most areas of experiencing prejudice against my personal and sometimes cultural differences. | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/15/2009 8:55:22 PM | I suppose I have been very fortunate in my extensive experience with people from other cultures, I have always felt embraced and welcomed. ( I have lived in both hemispheres of the world and through my work come in contact with people from every corner of the globe.)
To be absolutely truthful, it is my own cultural group that has been the most unwelcoming and cruel and to "paint" the story any other way is BS and makes me ashamed to be white.
I approach people with an accepting attitude and nonjudgmental attitude. I have a natural advantage in that I have a legitimate interest in other cultures and cross-cultural communication.
I honestly do not think that innate instincts build barriers between cultures. We all have the same basic needs for food , shelter and to reproduce. The higher level needs for love and acceptance. This is what I meant when I said we are more alike than unlike.
I think that language can be a barrier. It is natural to gravitate toward someone who you can communicate with ease with. The other barrier might be values and spiritual believes. (Even within a culture, we can see people grouping by spiritual beliefs.) | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/15/2009 10:49:17 PM | | Claiming minority group status and cultural difference in response to other posters lends no special credence to one's posts. We could all mention our ethnic and cultural makeup. But why bother? We're all members of the same club, the human species, ( homo sapien). | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/16/2009 3:10:19 AM |
We're all members of the same club, the human species, ( homo sapien).
^^^ ... ummmm, human yes .... but IMO since I do not believe any of
my kin are related to apes ....  .... I am a member of a club of a
different sort.  | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/16/2009 4:06:11 PM |
. I am a member of a club of a different sort.
diversity tolerant species of the homo sapience's natural sciences organization are waiting for tissue samples for further analysis
Claiming minority group status and cultural difference in response to other posters lends no special credence to one's posts. We could all mention our ethnic and cultural makeup. But why bother? We're all members of the same club, the human species, ( homo sapien). 
Or apparently not. As this forum shows a slice of the population at large the subject of tolerance is shrouded by real or imagined feelings/traits of inferiority or superiority projected outward.
Each persons life experiences expressed are their very own opinion based on their abilities to reason.
Every one else may agree or disagree based on their own experiences and abilities to reason.
The mere fact that there is communication is a sign of tolerance; so is acceptance of differences and every one's right to judge for themselves what fits into their version of life. Such judgment will always include rejection of other (different) thoughts, styles, cultures, belief...etc
I guess being civil about such differences/rejections is tolerant.
It seems when we assume, become defensive, suspicious of others intent , negativity even malice surface, the intolerant emerges often as a control mechanism.
We should wonder why in a harmless forum debate where nothing really is at stake. | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/16/2009 6:32:30 PM |
It seems when we assume, become defensive, suspicious of others intent , negativity even malice surface, the intolerant emerges often as a control mechanism.
We should wonder why in a harmless forum debate where nothing really is at stake.
Control Mechanism…exactly.
I would call it developing a consciousness…
WE should wonder? Are you serious???????
Nothing at stake???? You are serious?????
OMG you re serious! | |
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| The tolerant and the less-tolerant
Posted: 8/16/2009 6:44:58 PM | I'm becoming less tolerant, of those that always seem to be on the lookout for a negativity riddelled debate.
Some seem to thrive on being a critic of others opinions (hey, we are all allowed to have our own) , and can't seem to hold themselves back from over analyzing.  | |
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